asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what consideration he has given to the operation of the Protection of Employment (Northern Ireland) Act after 1977.

I shall be considering the matter in due course in consultation with both sides of industry.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, especially in the present employment situation in Northern Ireland, any sharp transition as soon as the end of 1977 would be highly dangerous from many points of view? Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that this matter is pursued with a view to continuing derogation?

I take the right hon. Gentleman's point, but he will be aware of the present economic situation. I do not think that there will be a stampede of people looking for employment in Northern Ireland. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, derogation does not end until 1977. The bodies that I shall be consulting through the Northern Ireland Economic Council will include both sides of industry—namely, the trade unions and the employers.

Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to tell us the level of applications for work permits in Northern Ireland?

I shall need notice before I can answer that question. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that in June 1975 there were 5,598 immigrant workers—that is, 1·1 per cent. of the total work force—in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement about the political situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he proposes to take following the completion of the work of the Northern Ireland Convention.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on future arrangements for democratic representation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the future constitutional status of the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what arrangement he proposes to make for the continuation of direct rule following the endine of the Constitutional Convention.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Convention.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether, in view of the failure of the Convention, he has any plans within the context of direct rule for the further democratisation of Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

I refer to my statement of 5th March. The Government's policy in Northern Ireland is to provide positive government so as to minimise hardship in the short term and to bring about real and lasting improvements in the long term.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. In his statement he said that he would be prepared to receive constructive and responsible ideas on the future of Northern Ireland from the political parties in Northern Ireland. Has my right hon. Friend received any such representations? Is he satisfied that the channels for such representations remain reasonably open?

I think that the channels are reasonably open. The Leader of the UUUC is in the House, as are the leaders of the SDLP and the VUP. I am always prepared to receive ideas from anyone. Yes, I am content that at this pitch of time it is possible to get ideas from the leaders in Northern Ireland.

Despite what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, is he not aware—of course, he is—that since the Macrory reforms there has been less democratic control of local government and regional services in the Province? The right hon. Gentleman may wish to bring before the House in due course, as part of his policy of positive direct rule, proposals for the improvement of procedures here for the scrutiny of expenditure and legislation, and possibly additions to representation in the House.

The hon. Gentleman's last point is not something that happens overnight, irrespective of the arguments about it. Representation in the House is part of a wider devolution argument and the wide-ranging reforms taking place later in this decade. The Macrory reforms were made before this Administration or the last took office. I understand that the UUUC is in favour of local government reform, but the SDLP members tell me that they are not in favour of it. I am looking at the question of dealing with legislation. There are some difficult aspects of this subject. I hope that when we renew the order, or perhaps before, I shall be able to say something about this matter.

rose——

Order. Seven Questions are being answered together and I intend to call the hon. Members whose Questions they are before anyone else.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman think that the size of Northern Ireland representation in this House has anything to do with devolution, since his right hon. Friend does not propose to reduce the representation of Scotland or Wales here? Is he satisfied, now that direct rule is not of a very temporary character, that there will be adequate opportunity in this House to raise wide-ranging questions of legislation and that, for example, legislation on social matters will not be held up for lack of time?

I am aware of the concern on the last point. This is not an easy matter, given the legal arrangements in Northern Ireland, but I am looking at it. I do not believe that we can provide for extra representation in the middle of a Parliament. That was the point I was making. There are wider aspects to this question. If the hon. Gentleman is asking what views have been put to me, I can tell him that one major party in Northern Ireland does not want extra representation for the Province at Westminster. What one side says is usually what the other side does not say. That is one of the problems we face.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that one of the major formative influences towards a peaceful solution in Northern Ireland is the Labour movement, which encompasses trade unions and trades councils? Do they not embrace both Catholic and Protestant workers, who have the same problems when it comes down to the nitty gritty of life? Is my right hon. Friend aware of any growth or re-birth of trades councils which would help in this direction?

I am not aware of any growth of trades councils which, in their 120 or 130 years' history in this country, have been concentrated in urban industrial areas. I freely admit the excellent work done across the divide by trade unions when it gets to what my hon. Friend called the nitty gritty. Any growth which takes place tends to fall apart, and this is one of the basic problems in Northern Ireland.

I agree with the Secretary of State's broad approach to direct rule. However, to the extent that there is a political vacuum in Northern Ireland, does this not open up greater opportunities for the men of violence to step in? Will the right hon. Gentleman open his mind to the possibility of evolving a modest form of political forum, whether by strengthening local government or by establishing a political advisory committee?

I will certainly keep an open mind, but experience over the last four years does not suggest that I should follow the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. I must work through the elected representatives in this House. This is not a cheap party political point—hon. Members will know what I argued at the time—but if there is a vacuum it was created when Stormont was ended and not when the Convention was ended.

Since the period of direct rule is now to be without a limit of time, would the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his earlier answer about the representation of Northern Ireland in this House? If the people of Northern Ireland are to have parity with the citizens of other parts of the United Kingdom, should there not also be parity of representation?

In one respect the people of Northern Ireland have more than parity: no other part of the United Kingdom with 1½ million people has five Ministers concentrating on its problems. Hon. Members should not think that extra representation for Northern Ireland in this House is a way of solving the problems of Northern Ireland. It is a divided society. I have visited many parts where even to talk about extra representation in this House is to fly in the face of history and cultural attitudes. The time to look at this problem is when the divide has been healed and the two groups are working for the good of Northern Ireland.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all we are asking for is plain common justice for the people of Northern Ireland? Are not the Government abandoning the democratic principle of equal representation if they do not get the Boundary Commission to look at this matter with a view to having 20 seats for Northern Ireland rather than 12?

This problem does not go back just over the last four or five years. When the Commission was set up, there was a separate Parliament for Northern Ireland. I do not believe that this is a question of justice. It would be if one were comparing Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom.

Could not the Secretary of State deal with this proper claim for increased representation from Northern Ireland and also with the problem he has just mentioned by introducing a system of proportional representation, so that all communities could be represented?

It would be rather odd to have proportional represention in only one part of the United Kingdom. There is proportional representation in local government elections and any possible Assembly elections in Northern Ireland. As I have learned over the last two or three years, there is no simple answer to Northern Ireland's problems and no device by which we can achieve what we want in Northern Ireland. It is a long, slow process.

May I press the right hon. Gentleman on the subject of extra representation? How can he argue in logic that it is perfectly possible in mid-Parliament to introduce a Convention, or close it down and thus deprive the Province of representation, but impossible in mid-Parliament to provide proper representation in this House?

The Convention concerned only Northern Ireland, not the rest of the United Kingdom. I would advise the hon. Gentleman that if he is looking for a part of the United Kingdom to which to apply logic, he is now applying it to the wrong place.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that historic and cultural attitudes have nothing to do with fair democratic representation for the Province in this House? Will he recollect what he and his colleagues said in 1967, 1968 and 1969 and meet the demands for justice in Northern Ireland now? I do not think he should bask too much in the warmth——

Order. We are here not to know what the hon. Member thinks, but to hear his question.

I hope that the Secretary of State is not misled by praise bestowed upon him——

Order. That is an expression of opinion.

I am not basking in anybody's praise, or the opposite. I recall what was said in 1967 and 1968, but the arguments at that time are not on a par with the question of representation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there are many parts of the mainland that would like equality of representation and treatment with Northern Ireland, especially in the granting of economic and financial aid towards dealing with our considerable unemployment? Is he further aware that it ill-behoves Opposition Members from Northern Ireland to make strong pleas about representation when one considers their history and attitudes until they lost their own Stormont Parliament?

There is some justice in my hon. Friend's last comment. The subject of representation and a new form of Assembly is a complicated matter in a confused cultural and political situation. I do not believe that extra representation should be seen as the "Open Sesame" to solving the problems of Northern Ireland. I admit that the subject of the money spent in Northern Ireland frequently arises. I can only say to my hon. Friend what I say to people of all political persuasions in this country; there are real problems in Northern Ireland and it is part of the United Kingdom.

In the event of the House agreeing to have direct elections to the European Parliament in 1978, will Northern Ireland be represented? If it is possible to draw constituency boundaries for that Parliament, why is it not possible to rearrange the present boundaries to allow greater representation in this House?

It is not a matter of technicalities. It is not a matter of laws in this House. Northern Ireland is a split community——

So is Scotland.

and if the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. McNair-Wilson) believes that doing this would make people in South Fermanagh suddenly after 200 years, say "Eureka—we want to be part of the United Kingdom", he is very wrong. That is a South-East England approach.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when it is hoped to start rebuilding Lurgan RUC Station.

The Police Authority for Northern Ireland, which is responsible for the provision of police buildings, expects work on the rebuilding of Lurgan RUC Station to commence later this year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that Lurgan police station was perfectly positioned to command the flashpoint area of the town and to protect both the business community and the minority Protestant community, which lives in northern Lurgan? Is he further aware of the bitterness in the town at the delay of three years in commencing to build the police station? Will he do all in his power to reduce any further delay?

I expect work on the police station to begin later this year. It was destroyed in 1973, and in the intervening time there have been continual revisions of police requirements and security requirements for the station. That has caused the delay in the planning procedure, which is now nearly over.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the use of the present building as a police station has deprived the people of a large area of one of the principal places for public meetings, and that therefore it is important that there should be no further delay?

Yes, it is expected that the new station will be available for occupation by the RUC towards the end of 1978. We are very grateful for the way in which the Lurgan District Council has made its town hall available for the police, and we hope that the building of the police station will not be too long delayed.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security in Northern Ireland.

The police and the Army continue to deal firmly and effectively with security incidents in Northern Ireland and to bring criminals from both sides of the community before the courts. So far this year, 33 persons have been charged with murder, 11 with attempted murder and 64 for firearms offences. In the same period, 85 persons have been killed as a result of terrorism. There have been more explosions than in the same period last year, but over 4·7 tons of explosives have been found by the security forces. Co-operation with the Irish security forces is good, and I particularly welcome the recovery by them also of substantial amounts of explosives, including the reported find of 4 tons of explosives in County Offaly on 13th March.

As 85 per cent. of the weapons found in the possession of the IRA are of United States origin, what have the Government done in the last four weeks since I raised the matter with the Foreign Secretary to help the leaders of the Irish-American community become fully aware that American funds raised for so-called social welfare in Northern Ireland are being largely used to buy weapons which are used by Irishmen to kill other Irishmen?

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister appeared on television in the United States on this matter. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has also played his part. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, while in the United States recently, made this very point in a number of major cities there. The Prime Minister of the Republic, the Taoiseach, if I have read the newspaper reports this morning correctly, also dealt with this point in his joint address to Congress in Washington. A great deal is being done.

With regard to the Government's recent talks with the Taoiseach, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking to the House that no further talks will take place with political wings of para-military organisations? Does he realise that such talks only undermine civilian morale and raise false hopes for the future? Finally, what is the present position concerning the ceasefire?

It was not our ceasefire: it was an expression by the Provisional IRA. Following it, there has been a change in the nature of violence, according to the available figures. I repeat that my officials will talk, not negotiate, with legal organisations. But I think that to make clear at times the views of this House and the people in this country will do no harm. If anybody believed a year ago that negotiations and agreements were taking place, I hope that by now it is realised that that was not the case. It has been practically shown not to be the case.

Is the Secretary of State aware that some of those who have carried the highest responsibility for security in Northern Ireland now believe that each battalion of the Ulster Defence Regiment should have a Regular company on full-time duty?

This is a matter that is constantly being looked at. I have no doubt that there are differing views about it. I advise the hon. Gentleman to look at the view expressed by the previous Administration on this matter. It is not as simple as it looks. I shall certainly look at it, and in particular in relation to the border, because it is on the border that an important job of checking has to be done.

Now that internment has—in my view rightly—been ended, will the Secretary of State instruct the Director of Public Prosecutions to make more use of Acts such as those against incitement, treason, and so on, to ensure that undesirables are put behind bars for determinate periods?

I have no power to instruct the DPP in Northern Ireland or anywhere else in what he shall do. The police and the DPP know what their duties are, and it is absolutely correct that I should play no part in it.

In relation to the overall security situation in Northern Ireland, will my right hon. Friend make it very clear that there are two sets of extremists or men of violence in Northern Ireland at the moment, and that the murders to which he has referred involved Catholics in the majority of instances, who certainly were not murdered by the IRA or any Republican organisation? Will he also make it clear that murderers and bombers are not restricted to any particular section of the community in Northern Ireland? Finally, will he accept that the explosion last night in County Tyrone was certainly not the work of the IRA?

The hon. Member always makes this point, and he is right to remind us that there are two groups of criminals in Northern Ireland operating under a political label. He is absolutely right that in the area he has mentioned, and over towards Armagh, members of his community have suffered. He is always the first to point it out and to sympathise when it happens on the other side.

After the particularly gruesome murders in South Armagh, including the murder of 10 workmen at Bessbrook, the Prime Minister personally said that it had been decided to send the SAS to Northern Ireland. Is the SAS still there, and has it or any other body arrested the people responsible for those murders?

I do not think that I ought to tell the hon. Gentleman about the activities of the SAS. I am very content with what it is doing in that area. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree on reflection that to talk about it would be rather a silly thing to do.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that the Unionists of Northern Ireland welcome the forthright condemnation by the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic before Congress in the United States of America of the supplying of money to Northern Ireland for arms? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what points his officials deal with when they meet Provisional Sinn Fein?

Everything that I say in the House of Commons, as reported in Hansard—nothing more and nothing less.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what effect the White Paper Command Paper No. 6393 on Public Expenditure will have on the special position of agriculture in Northern Ireland.

Agriculture accounts for 10 per cent. of employment in Northern Ireland compared with 3 per cent. in the rest of the United Kingdom. The public expenditure provisions recognise this by allowing for certain special aids to Northern Ireland agriculture as well as the assistance available to agriculture throughout the United Kingdom.

Although I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply, may I remind him that these special aids are due to decline in value by 1980? If it is felt in this period that the decline of about one third in total is too rapid, will the right hon. Gentleman revise the projected figures?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the remoteness grant and the financial assistance towards the cost of sea transport of Northern Irish eggs and the feed price allowance scheme. These are extra to what farmers receive here. I shall keep my eye on them, because they are important.

Will the special arrangements for beef premiums continue in the coming year?

Yes.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is satisfied with the standard of weapons and equipment supplied to the RUC in their fight against the terrorists.

The assessment of RUC operational needs for weapons and other equipment is a matter for the Chief Constable and the Police Authority. I am satisfied that adequate arrangements exist for the provision of all necessary equipment.

Does the Secretary agree that if, in his own words, the RUC gradually takes over security in Northern Ireland, it will require weapons equivalent to those of the British Army? Is the hon. Gentleman also aware that the vehicles that are being used in the RUC are classed as suicide vehicles in Northern Ireland? Will the Minister ensure that the RUC gets the proper weapons, training and vehicles to fight terrorists and to take over full security in Northern Ireland?

It is not for me to ensure anything. It is for the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary to make out a case for any equipment he wants to the Police Authority and it is for the Police Authority to agree with him.

Will the Minister tell us a little more about the working party on Army and RUC co-operation? When is it likely to report and when are we likely to be told something about it? Many of us are concerned about the need for co-ordination.

The hon. Gentleman's question lies outside the original Question. I was not referring to a working party on the co-ordination of the Army and the police. I was talking about a working party which advises the Chief Constable about the equipment for the RUC and which includes representatives of the Police Federation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the basis for compensation awards granted under the Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) Act (Northern Ireland) 1968; and whether the working party set up to review the operation of the Act is ready to report.

Everyone must have sympathy with the victims of violence and especially those who are injured in the execution of their duties in upholding law and order and wish to see the payment of appropirate compensation, but we cannot be unmindful of the cost to public funds.

Does the Minister recall that I asked a similar Question over a year ago and received a similarly unsatisfactory Answer? Does he not feel that British Service men serving in Northern Ireland and their dependants have every reason to feel aggrieved that this report has been tossed about the trays of Whitehall for over a year? Has that not now become a scandal?

I do not think that what the hon. Gentleman has said is true. No one wants this report out as quickly as possible more than I do. The members of the security forces and their dependants have the benefit of Service pensions, which specifically cover the risk of injury or death. Under the Act, at present these have to be taken into consideration.

Will the Minister give the House some idea of what the total cost of claims has been? How many claims have been initiated since 1968 and how many of them relate to property, injured civilians, or those who have been killed?

There have been 25,896 claims. The sum involved in personal claims which have now been paid is £20 million and about another £15 million is outstanding. As regards property, the sum is now £141 million with £48 million outstanding. The total is nearly £224 million.

Is the Minister aware that many of my constituents feel deeply outraged that less than £6,000 should be paid in compensation to the widow and small daughter of a British corporal who was killed when fighting in Northern Ireland whereas up to £16,000 was paid in compensation to an IRA detainee who suffered during interrogation? When will he ensure that justice is done under the Compensation Act?

There are two different methods of dealing with the situation. That is one of the reasons why my right hon. Friend set up the working party. Of course, I am just as much aggrieved about events like this as anyone else. Not only the hon. Gentleman's constituents but mine are involved.

Is the Minister aware that it is not enough for him to say that this important report is at an advanced stage? As there has been a delay of over a year, will the hon. Gentleman please tell us an approximate date or a date beyond which this delay will not be allowed to continue?

The matter has not been delayed. An extremely difficult situation is being discussed. The matter is at a very advanced stage. The working party has to report to my right hon. Friend and once that report is in the hands of my right hon. Friend, it will be dealt with.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about employment prospects in the Province.

A precise forecast of employment prospects is not possible; in Northern Ireland they will depend to a considerable degree upon an upturn nationally. The extent to which Northern Irelands participates in the upturn will be heavily influenced by the political stability of the Province until then and at that time. We need to be sure that we are making the best use of the resources available.

Does the Minister agree that Harland and Wolff is of overriding importance in the overall economy of Northern Ireland? Is it not a fact that two of the three tankers originally ordered by Maritime Fruit Carriers have found a purchaser in Coastal States Gas of Houston, Texas? What will happen to the third tanker? As the company is now nationalised, will any warships be ordered from it, or will it become a repair base for our Navy?

I confirm that the orders for the two tankers have been saved. I should not like to comment on the third order at this stage. The hon. Gentleman is aware that the Government have put a considerable amount of public money into what is now a publicly owned company to try to preserve employment in Harland and Wolff. Every prospect for employment is being examined.

Is the Minister satisfied that every facet of the social and economic realities of Northern Ireland was considered before the decision to denude the Province of 2,000 jobs in the defence sector was taken?

I was in Northern Ireland yesterday when the Defence Ministers announced their decisions. The previous defence cuts did not affect Northern Ireland at the time. This is a Government decision to reduce manpower. We are being called upon to reduce public expenditure. It is unfortunate that when it takes place, as in this case, jobs are lost. As part of the reassessment, we hope to re-examine how we can create new jobs on a more permanent basis than that of defence.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will consider laying before the House at regular intervals reports on the progress of operations against the IRA and other terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland.

A report "Statistics on Security" is produced quarterly, providing a wide range of statistical material about the extent of terrorist violence and the operations of the security forces. Copies of these reports are placed in the Library. I also keep the House fully informed about the Government's security policy.

Does the Secretary of State agree that, instead of appearing to react to terrorist acts, it would be better to institute a system of detailed reporting, either to this House or perhaps to another form of parliamentary forum?

All such information is contained in the report which I have with me and a copy of which was placed in the Library on 8th March. It contains details of the number of incidents, explosions, bombs and devices neutralised, the number of houses searched, the amount of explosives recovered, and the number of people served with various orders. The information is there. I asked for it to be placed in the Library some time ago because the report is far better able to tell what is happening in Northern Ireland than piecemeal Answers to Questions in the House.

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility in this House, would it not be more appropriate for these reports now to be raised to the dignity of Command Papers?

I will consider that suggestion, because I agree that what matters is that a wide variety of people should have the chance to see this information. It is the information which I study daily with my security advisers. It tells a different story from the situation indicated by some unusual occurrence.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he intends to take following the publication recently of the report on the Foyle Fisheries.

The report was made to the Foyle Fisheries Commission, not to Ministers. I understand that the Commission has requested the views of the Foyle Area Advisory Council and other interested parties, and when these have been received it will make proposals for the future management of the Foyle Fisheries. If required these will be discussed between the Commission, the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Dublin and the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture and any necessary action will be taken.

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware that this report confirms allegations by anglers over a long period about overnetting on the Foyle system? Will the Minister undertake to ask the Foyle Fisheries Commission to have the widest possible consultation with all interests in the Foyle area about both rod and net fishing and water rights, and that the farming interests will be included in those consultations? This is a very big problem for the community at large.

I agree that it is a big problem for the community at large. The inquiry was set up for the reasons the hon. Member stated, and I can give the undertaking that there will be the widest possible consultations with all the local interests before action is taken.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with political leaders in Northern Ireland since the Convention last met.

I have not had any formal discussions with party leaders in Northern Ireland since the dissolution of the Convention. I have on normal House of Commons terms spoken informally with Northern Ireland Members at Westminster.

What plans does the Secretary of State have for regular meetings with the leaders of the political parties which were represented in the Convention but which are now unrepresented in this House?

I have no plans for doing that on a regular basis. As I stated earlier, the leaders of the UUUC, the SDLP and the VUP sit in this House. There is little problem about talking with people in Northern Ireland, but I do not think that formal talks on the basis of those conducted in the last four or five years are necessary at the moment.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I am resisting the temptation to ask how the talks are progressing that he and his Minister of State are conducting with various bodies? Will he say to what extent the Department is making arrangements for regular consultations with community leaders in Northern Ireland who may not be Members of this House, who may have important matters to discuss, but who feel that because of the diminution of the responsibilities of local government in Northern Ireland, they have no proper opportunity to discuss them?

I am prepared to do that, but in no circumstances will I diminish the responsibilities of Westminster Members and my responsibilities to this House. A large number of people in Northern Ireland see the Ministers who work with me and who spend a great deal of time there. We are not deficient in knowledge of the views of a wide variety of people in the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to restore democracy to local government in Northern Ireland.

District councils in Northern Ireland are democratically-elected bodies and we have no plans for changing the present system of local government.

Since Northern Ireland is under-represented in this House and since about half the members of the area education and health boards are nominated by the responsible Ministers and are not elected by the people, does not this situation include all the ingredients for a bureaucratic and insensitive approach to local problems? As—

Order. I suggested earlier that if the hon. Gentleman got to the point of his Question, we should get on more quickly.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I ask briefly, therefore, whether the Minister realises that a fully-elected third tier system for local government is urgently needed in Northern Ireland?

A substantial proportion of the membership of area boards is already drawn from district councils even though the services provided are financed entirely by the Government.