asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received since the publication of the Daniel Report on the impact of water rates on commercial undertakings in Wales.

Since August 1975, we have received 14 representations, three about the cost of metered water supplies and 11 about the level of water abstraction charges.

In spite of that astonishingly small number, is it not a fact that the level of water charges in Wales now constitutes a serious discouragement to firms planning either to set up or to expand in Wales? In view of the song and dance made by the Minister's right hon. and learned Friend about what he has done for domestic payers, is it not time that he gave at least as much consolation to commercial undertakings?

It is certainly true that the level of charges to all consumers in Wales has risen far more than we should have liked. However, the hon. Gentleman has some responsibility in the matter, because the Conservative Government whom he supported were the Government who actually introduced the water charges legislation. Relieving one type of consumer could be done only at the expense of other consumers. I doubt whether many of the domestic consumers in the hon. Gentleman's constituency would welcome increased charges.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, while we welcome the fact that in their consultative paper the Government have accepted the principle of partial equalisation, we believe that the consultative paper does not go far enough in providing a long-term solution by finding a more satisfactory basis than the present rating system and in tackling the problem of industrial charges?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is a Question later on the Order Paper dealing specifically with charges relating to rateable values.

My hon. Friend is perfectly correct in saying that the present unsatisfactory state of affairs is entirely due to the Conservative Party, but what further consideration has been given to the possibility of the equalisation of water charges in England and Wales? Further, will my hon. Friend say whether the Daniel Report will now be considered side by side with the White Paper on water undertakings generally?

We published the Report and asked for the advice and opinions of all bodies in Wales. When that advice is received, we shall be declaring our intentions in this matter.

Is the Minister aware that the just and necessary action that the Government must take is to establish an all-Wales water authority and endow it with a power not only to develop this rich natural resource but to sell Welsh water to English industry and conurbations for a material return which could be invested in Wales, perhaps in reducing our own water charges?

I disagree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. I believe that the resources of the United Kingdom should be used to benefit the whole of the population of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will review the system of levying domestic water and sewerage charges based on rateable values; and if he will make a statement.

Charging policy is constantly kept under review, but I see no immediate prospect of change in the system of basing domestic water and sewerage charges on rateable values.

Since the present Government have been in power for over two years now, and since the consultative document pays no attention to this problem, will the Minister say what justice there is in the ratepayers of Cardiff paying over twice as much for water and sewerage as is paid by those in the Rhondda, and those living in council houses paying so much more in Cardiff, an authority which looked after its water interests before the re-organisation, than those in other parts of Wales? Where is the justice?

The longer the hon. Gentleman remains on the Opposition Benches, the more concern he shows for water consumers in Cardiff and, indeed, in Wales as a whole. If one were to change the system to meet the requirements and the wishes of the Cardiff authority, it would mean that one would have to pay as much in water rates if one lived in a cottage in Conway as one would have to pay if one lived in a mansion in Cyncoed. I do not believe that that would be a fair allocation of charges.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he arranged a meeting with the Chairman of the Welsh National Water Authority to discuss the price of water to industry in Wales.

I already hold regular meetings with the Chairman of the Welsh National Water Development Authority.

As one who lives nearer to the cottage in Gwynedd than to a mansion in Cardiff, may I remind the Minister that the Daniel Report, referring to the cost of water to industry in Wales, states that Wales is less attractive to incoming industry because of the price of water? In the discussions which are going on will the hon. Gentleman make sure that there is an equalisation or, better still, a transfer of resources to Wales to bring down the price of water to industry in Wales to make sure of better industrial development?

Attracting industry to Wales involves not only water charges but infrastructure, training, and a whole variety of matters. I do not believe that to solve one problem necessarily makes a major contribution to the attraction of industry. I trust that hon. Members appreciate that the partial equalisation scheme that we have suggested for domestic consumers means a transfer of £4 million to Wales water consumers from the pockets of other water authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total allocation to district councils in Wales for 1976–77 for acquisition of property and repairs to its housing stock.

A sum of £13·2 million has been allocated to local authorities for capital expenditure on house improvements, environmental works in housing action and general improvement areas, the acquisition of existing property and capitalised repairs.

Will the Minister confirm that the bids from local authorities in this sector of spending were nearer £30 million than the £13 million his Department is allocating? Will he admit that in view of this low allocation we are likely to see a tremendous backlog in improvements to council house stock and in ability on the part of district councils to purchase privately-rented property?

I confirm that the total Welsh bid was £29·5 million, but, in view of the remarkable success of house building in Wales last year, if we are to retain some target remotely close to last year's figures, it is necessary, however unpleasant it is, to limit other housing expenditures.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the return Welsh farmers get for their labour.

I am aware that dairy and livestock farmers in Wales as elsewhere in the United Kingdom have had difficult years in 1973–74 and 1974–75. But I am confident that their returns in 1975–76 will show a marked recovery as a result of Government measures on milk prices and the beef régime. Decisions taken in the 1976 annual review and CAP price fixing can be expected to consolidate and improve the situation further.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in 1975 farmers' income fell in England by 10 per cent. and in Wales by a punishing 32 per cent., and that agriculture in this way exemplifies the failure of central and centralist Government in those fields for which they are responsible, such as roads, housing and employment? Will the Minister admit that the situation in Wales is continually worse than it is in England?

No, certainly not. I should want to examine the hon. Gentleman's figures, but I have confirmed that 1973–74 and 1974–75 were difficult years. However, there has been a marked improvement. As anyone who has been to our markets recently has seen, there was a dramatic increase in milk production in the autumn and beef prices, particularly since the new scheme introduced by the Government, have been stabilised, and this was welcomed throughout the industry.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that we welcome the better prices to be provided for farmers this year, but we view with alarm reports we read in the Press to the effect that we may be starting our first beef mountain? When may we expect a fundamental review of the CAP?

My right hon. Friend has made proposals and has taken part in the discussions in Brussels, and I have been there myself to add whatever weight I have to strengthen my right hon. Friend's representations. I can assure my hon. Friend that throughout the industry there has been a welcome of the Government's proposals and of the CAP on this point.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is undoubtedly right in saying that prospects in agriculture this year are very different from what they have been over the past two or three years. Anybody who does not acknowledge that is not looking at reality. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the real fears in Wales are about the long term, that there is so much now in agriculture that is cyclical, and that the CAP tends to contribute to the cyclical process? What prospects are there of amending the CAP? Did he come from Brussels, after trying to reinforce his right hon. Friend's efforts, with confidence that there was a real chance of changing the system?

I am sure that there is a great deal to be done. Everyone is anxious to ensure that there is the best possible system of organising a just system of agricultural prices—just to the producer and just to the consumer. I would be the first to concede that there is a good deal of work to be done. At the negotiations I was concerned to ensure that there was a proper return for Welsh farmers. The way that the last announcement has been welcomed is an indication that those who understand what is happening today in Welsh agriculture believe that there will be such a proper return, and this is confirmed by the hon. and learned Gentleman's views.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will consult the Dyfed Area Health Authority about its plans for the future of the County Hospital, Haverfordwest, in the light of the recommendation of his Consultative Document on Policies and Priorities in the Health Service that the first priority be given to the needs of the elderly.

The area health authority has not yet made firm plans. It will shortly be conducting consultations on what hospital closures and changes of use will need to follow the opening of Withybush hospital. These may well involve the County Hospital.

In view of the existence of a massive asset that needs to be effectively utilised, in the shape of the County Hospital, and bearing in mind the acceptance that the treatment of the elderly is a top priority, does it not make sense to use the County Hospital for that purpose, and is this not a proper application of admittedly limited resources?

I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman's reference to limited resources, because I constantly hear him asking for more public expenditure. It is for the area health authority in the first instance to propose how best it can provide services within the limits of its resources. I understand that the area health authority's consultation document will recognise the needs of the elderly and discuss alternative ways of meeting them.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the effect of the White Paper on Public Expenditure on the hospital building programme in Wales between the present time and 1979–80.

As the White Paper shows, there will be a reduction in capital expenditure on new buildings over the next few years. Schemes in progress will proceed as planned. In addition, funds will be made available for a modest programme of schemes of high priority.

As the White Paper makes it clear that one of the major ways of sustaining current expenditure is cutting capital expenditure and slowing down hospital building, can the Minister give a firm assurance that there will be no closure of the older, smaller type of hospital before alternative new facilities are available?

If a large new district general hospital is opened in, say, Bangor, I cannot see that one can rule out the possibility of closing a smaller hospital. The hon. Gentleman should know that area health authorities have the responsibility of submitting consultation documents to the communities they serve. Nothing can be done without adequate and prolonged consultation with local communities. The hon. Gentleman should know also that he is to have in his constituency a £12 million new district general hospital at Bangor and the first stages will be opened by my right hon. and learned Friend this very weekend. That means that the hon. Gentleman is having the lion's share of available resources for capital expenditure in Wales.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the area served by the Wrexham Hospitals Group has the longest waiting list for admissions in the whole of Wales and that the area health authority has prepared an admirable development scheme based on the type of cottage hospital of which the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts) spoke?

My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Mr. Ellis) is never shy about coming forward and telling me of the needs of his constituency. I have heard from the area health authority about its proposed plans, but it will be for the authority formally to put them to me in the future. I can assure my hon. Friend that those plans will be given very serious consideration.

Is not one of the troubles the fact that for years we put local health centres separate and apart from local hospitals? This trend is now in the process of being reversed. Where the local health centre is where the local cottage hospital is, they can work so much better together and the costs are to a large extent shared.

I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Welsh Office has taken fully into account the special needs of Powys, where the health centres and the community hospitals rate very highly. The Department has a policy on community hospitals. The chairman of the area health authority at Powys has recently told me of the plans that he has.

In his Consultative Document on the Health and Personal Social Services in Wales, the Secretary of State stated that priority also had to be given to services for the mentally ill. What proposals does the Department have to transfer resources currently being spent within the hospital sector to the community provision of the local authorities for the mentally ill?

I confirm that the priority for the mentally handicapped is very high. Immediately on coming into office, my right hon. and learned Friend decided that this sector, which had been much neglected in the past, must have the facilities and the moneys it deserved. The hon. Gentleman might like to write to me about the details of his question.

Why is the Minister's Department unable to differentiate in figures for discharges from mental hospitals between those who are discharged alive and those who are discharged dead, as was revealed in an answer to a Question tabled by me some weeks ago?

I should like notice of that question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will consult the Countryside Commission on how the rôle of the Commission in safeguarding environmental interests in National Parks in Wales can be made more effective.

Consultation between the Welsh Office and the Commission is frequent. I am satisfied that the Commission through its Welsh Committee is already playing an effective rôle.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that environmental interests in the Snowdonia National Park have not been adequately safeguarded recently, whether the fault lies with the Countryside Commission, or the local planning authority, or the parks authority, or even with the House itself? Will he prepare and publish a short factual report showing how the tarmacadam road leading from the A5 to Ffynnon Llugwy came to be authorised, to what extent environmental interests influenced the decision, and what he proposes to do to prevent a recurrence of this unfortunate experience?

Too long.

Order. It is very unfair of hon. Members to shout "Too long". Almost every supplementary question today has been too long.

My hon. Friend and I have corresponded about this matter. My hon. Friend has pursued the issue diligently. I have two things to say to him now. First, it is open to the Countryside Commission or its Welsh Committee to seek guidance on any environmental issue at any time from the Welsh Office. Secondly, he is probably aware that the terms of the letters issued by the Welsh Office in January 1970 are now under review, as requested by the Commission. When the review is complete, I shall be ready to consider whether further advice on standards of access roads to reservoirs is needed.

Can the Under-Secretary give one good reason why Wales should not have her own Countryside Commission equal in status to those for Scotland and for Northern Ireland? What steps do he and his right hon. and learned Friend propose to take to establish a Welsh Countryside Commission?

This matter will certainly be considered in the ensuing debates on devolution, but I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman immediately that, as matters now stand, the Welsh Office is looking after the interests of Wales.

As there is very deep concern in my constituency about the Ffynnon Llugwy road built by the CEGB, which the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Ellis) has in mind, will the Minister hold an inquiry so that the proper procedures are followed?

The proper procedures were followed.

Will the Under-Secretary of State appreciate that the best way in which the Countryside Commission can safeguard environmental interests is to have sufficient funds in order to compensate local residents for some of the inconveniences they suffer as a result of the restrictions in planning applications? Secondly, will my hon. Friend look carefully at the recommendations of the Dobry Report and see whether stop notices on planning procedures can be urgently implemented?

I will look carefully into both the matters my hon. Friend has raised.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further discussions he has had with building societies about their lending policies in Wales

Regular discussions already take place between the Government and building societies on a Great Britain basis. I shall be ready at any time to supplement these with separate discussions on any specific Welsh problems if the need arises.

Is my hon. Friend really satisfied with the response of building societies to his efforts to make them more flexible in their policies, particularly in relation to less creditworthy people and less attractive properties, of which we have so many in the Principality?

I want to do all I can to make money available for people who wish to buy houses, particularly older houses. That is why we have a working party, on which the Welsh Office has representatives, involving building societies and local authority representatives, to try to establish this proper sort of relationship. However, I must say that I was considerably concerned to find that not all local authorities have been trying to make use of the £5 million made available by building societies.

When it comes to lending on older houses, especially those in need of improvement, and when they are being bought by wage earners, and particularly lower wage earners, of whom there are many in Wales, are not building societies pretty hopeless and lacking in enterprise? Is my hon. Friend aware that in one other respect they lack enterprise, and that is in lending to people who require additional finance to improve their homes? Are not the Government ready to do something extra about that?

In addition to the £12 million which my right hon. and learned Friend has already announced for local authority lending for house purchase, there must be added amounts taken from the £2·5 million and the £4 million of the Chancellor's aid to the construction industry, making some £16 million available for house purchase and improvement at the end of this year.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the building societies were not able to fill the gap caused by the Government's ban on local authority lending last year? Will he not agree that the expansion of local authority lending is the answer here?

As I said in reply to a previous question, if we are to maintain the highest possible level of new house building, there has to be some restriction in other fields of housing expenditure. This is something which we decided as a matter of top priority in view of the 51,000 people in Wales waiting for housing at this moment.

My hon. Friend has just made a serious statement. He said that a number of local authorities in Wales have shown a lack of interest in their approach to the allocation of resources, namely, £5 million. Will he tell the House what steps he and his right hon. and learned Friend are taking to stimulate these local authorities into taking greater interest? Otherwise, hon. Members will wish to know what local authorities they are. It would be help-full if we did know in order that we could press them to take action in this very important matter.

I do not think that even from the outset of the announcement of the £5 million have I suggested that it it would completely replace the restrictions we were obliged to introduce in the middle of last year. But I was disappointed to find that some local authorities had not even attempted to make approaches to building societies to see whether some money would be available. My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mr. Jones) and I will be holding a series of meetings with local authorities throughout Wales in order that this and other matters can be discussed.

I understand that the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) handed in a Question for oral answer which should have appeared at this point on the Order Paper. It was unstarred, owing to a misunderstanding for which the hon. and learned Member was in no way responsible. It can be seen as Written Question No. 6. The hon. and learned Member may ask the Question orally if he wishes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will set out the estimated costs of the five alternative projected routes for a bypass at Cemmaes Road; and whether he has come to any decision on the matter.

The estimated costs for the five alternative routes range from £278,000 to £532,000. I will place details in the Official Report. My right hon. and learned Friend expects to announce his decision on the preferred route next month.

Is it not time that the Department came to a decision? There has been a planning blight in this growing village for a long time because of the inability of the Welsh Office to make up its mind which of the five routes it wants. Now they have been priced, is it not time that an announcement was made?

Perhaps the hon. and learned Member did not hear my answer. The Welsh Office can make up its mind, but the Welsh Office must, does and always will take into account the feelings of everybody concerned. The exercise brought out strongly conflicting views on the five proposed schemes. It has been necessary to look at this matter closely in the light of physical restraints before reaching a decision. As soon as possible—I would think within weeks—a decision will be announced.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is grave concern in many parts of Wales about the delays in many trunk road projects? Will he confirm that there has been a substantial cut in the money available for trunk road construction next year, and will he make sure that this is reversed the year after and that we shall have substantially more?

The trunk road programmes have been reconsidered, but I ask the hon. Member to show a little patience, particularly since the schemes in his own area are doing very well in so far as the Welsh Office has an enormous concentration of resources at the moment in the Colcon scheme and also on the M4. I should have thought that as the hon. Member is soon to have the Caernarvon inner relief road, he might be a little more patient.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will make a statement defining his statutory powers for controlling Post Office charges.

My right hon. Friend has a limited power under paragraph 102 of the Price Code to restrict Post Office charges below what the Code would otherwise permit.

As the Post Office has already to some extent priced itself out of the market with its exorbitant charges for letters, telegrams, parcels and telephone calls, why does not the Minister make more use of the powers he has or, if they are not sufficient, why does he not seek more powers in the public interest?

The hon. Gentleman will know of the limitations of the Price Code, which are very limiting for us, and he must be aware also, with reference to the general topic which he raises, that there are no powers under the Post Office Act which allow Ministers to interfere in all the matters to which he refers. It sounds good stuff to suggest that the Post Office is pricing itself out of the market, but the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends cannot have it both ways: they cannot tell me that I have to run the Post Office in a certain way and at the same time urge me to interfere in matters of this kind.

Cannot my hon. Friend do something to improve the situation? Does he not realise that 50 years ago, without modern appliances such as electronic machines, motor vehicles, fast trains and the rest, the British people had a faster and better service for the equivalent then, I think, of one old penny or 1½? old pence, yet now, with as much as 1,800 per cent, increase, the postal service is now worse? If my hon. Friend cannot reduce prices, can he not either get rid of the Chairman of the Post Office Corporation or do something else to improve the situation?

I know of my hon. Friend's interest in the Post Office over many years, an interest which I have not always found terribly helpful, but I must ask him to recognise that we have a very good postal service in this country. It compares extremely favourably with that in many other countries of Western Europe.

From the figures which the Minister of State gave me last week, is it not clear that the increase in telegram charges has resulted in a fall of 40 per cent. in traffic, and is it not clear also that the increased charges now proposed for parcels are at least likely to lead to the end of the Post Office parcels service—a fear already expressed by the trade union leaders concerned? Can the Minister stand completely aside in such a situation?

We have to be guided, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, by the Post Office Act, and the whole question of the parcels service and representations made about it by the POUNC have been considered by my right hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what is the expected deficit in the Post Office for the current year; and what changes in tariffs in telecommunications and postal services he expects in consequence.

Present indications are that the Post Office will make a modest profit in the current financial year. Proposals for increases in inland postal tariffs to take effect early in 1976–77 have been made to the Price Commission. In addition, some overseas postal prices are being increased to meet higher payments to other countries under new Universal Postal Union tariff regulations.

I welcome the prospect of a small surplus, but is it not true that two of the main reasons for setting up the Corporation eight years ago were, first, to achieve greater efficiency and, second, to achieve closer touch with the consumer? Is it not plain that neither of those two objectives has yet been achieved, so how can the Minister afford to stand aside and allow the Post Office to continue to decline and become more inefficient in the way it is doing?

With respect, no one knows the Post Office Act better than does my right hon. Friend, who put it through the House of Commons, and he will know that one of the reasons why we do not interfere is that it is implicit in the Act that there should be a measure of commercial freedom given to the Post Office. We do not believe that the Post Office is less efficient than it was when my right hon. Friend was Postmaster-General, and I think it reflects very badly on him to suggest that of the people who work there.

Despite the shortcomings of the Post Office, which I think everyone accepts, does not my hon. Friend agree that our postal service is probably the most efficient in the world, and that anyone who has travelled in North America or Europe knows that to be so?

I agree with my hon. Friend, and in this connection I have in mind an article that appeared in The Guardian a few weeks ago, making comparisons between the Post Office service in this country and that in other countries of Western Europe and showing that on price and efficiency this country came out exceedingly well. In my view, our Post Office should be congratulated on that.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will seek a meeting with the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation.

No, Sir, but I am always willing to listen to any representations it may wish to make.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for taking the trouble to come to the House when the Department of Industry's Questions are second on the Order Paper. Will he agree that the ship and boat building industry represented by this Federation has excellent industrial relations and a good export record and that it never makes a call on the public purse? As the industry has been clobbered now by successive Governments, especially by his own through the 25 per cent. VAT, will the right hon. Gentleman take the trouble personally to meet representatives of the industry so that they may tell him of its problems and of its potential for the future?

I have had no direct request from the industry or from the Federation, but if such a request is made, I shall, of course, consider it. I confirm what the hon. Gentleman said—that industrial relations in the industry are very good and that it has made every effort to boost exports, with, I think, some success. I know that the hon. Gentleman will not expect me to comment on the budgetary aspects of the matter.

Apart from the Ship and Boat Builders National Federation, will the Secretary of State confirm that he has met the ship owners today? Will he tell us what proposals he has put before them to help in the present problem of orders in British shipyards?

I have not met the ship owners today. I shall be meeting them this afternoon, and it would not be appropriate to go into those other matters until I have met them.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what reply he has made to requests from Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited for assistance in funding the development of the RB401 engine.

I have had no such requests for assistance from Rolls-Royce (1971) Ltd.

Will my right hon. Friend seek the technical specifications of this new engine from Rolls-Royce at the earliest opportunity? Will he agree that engines of this type form a valuable bread and butter product for the British aerospace industry in the future, especially if some of our more grandiose projects have to be wound down?

I agree with a good deal of what my hon. Friend says. In the first place, it is for the National Enterprise Board to look into this project, but, of course, I shall give careful consideration to any recommendations which are put to me about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what he estimates to be the average amount of investment in industry which is required in order to create one new job; and what was the amount which would have been required 20 years ago.

It is not possible to give a very meaningful figure since it varies so widely from industry to industry. One indicator—gross capital stock per employee in manufacturing at constant 1970 prices—grew from £3,000 to £5,800 in the 20 years from 1954 to 1974.

I appreciate the difficulties of formulating an answer, but does not my hon. Friend agree that the answer which he has been able to give illustrates one the most daunting challenges faced by the present Government, showing that in areas where major changes create unavoidable heavy unemployment, as in some of the steel producing areas, considerable expenditure must be incurred and guaranteed in order to ensure that we have adequate economic opportunities?

The Government are concerned about investment, as my hon. Friend suggests, and we are doing everything we can to encourage it. The accelerated capital projects scheme is one method of helping in the way suggested.

Will the Minister give an impartial answer to this proposition—that money spent on nationalisation will create no new jobs, and that a fraction of the £500 million which the Government intend to spend on nationalising the aircraft and shipbuilding industries could create very many new jobs if it were put into research, development and new production?

The hon. Gentleman asks me for an impartial answer. If I did not think that the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill was valuable in terms of investment and of jobs, I should not have supported it along with my right hon. and hon. Friends.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what steps he takes to monitor new plant and equipment for which regional grants have been paid to ensure that they remain within the development areas; and if he is satisfied that this procedure is working effectively.

Each regional development grants office employs enforcement officers to inspect grant-aided assets to ensure compliance with the conditions imposed when grant is paid. I am satisfied that the procedure is effective and that the effort involved is consistent with the need to achieve the most effective use of available staff resources.

Is the Minister aware of the considerable misgivings in Wales that there is abuse of this system and that some assets are being moved out, perhaps within the law but contrary to its spirit and intention? More seriously, is he aware that there are instances of machines having their number plates changed and then being moved out within the limited period? Information about this has been given to the Secretary of State for Wales.

I have read about the allegations of the hon. Gentleman's friends outside the House about regional development grants. If the hon. Member is prepared to give me substantial evidence, I will look at the matter.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many of the 29 special advisers to Ministers receive a salary higher than that paid to Members of Parliament.

There are 16 special advisers who receive a higher annual salary than the £5,750 paid to Members of Parliament. Members are of course entitled to a number of additional allowances for which special advisers, like other civil servants, are not eligible.

Is it the case, as the Minister told the House on 23rd March, that the appointments and, therefore, the salaries of those 29 special advisers terminate on the date that the resignation of the Prime Minister becomes effective?

The position is that the appointment of special advisers needs the approval of the Prime Minister and, therefore, the appointment of such advisers subsequently will need the approval of the Prime Minister.

Will the Minister take on board, after his appalling speech the other night, that the House finds it totally repugnant that special advisers on political matters should be paid out of tax-payers' money? If they are political advisers, should they not be paid by the political parties?

I thought that that was among my better speeches. I wonder whether the House would want again a situation in which the representatives of and people who formerly worked at Tory Central Office were placed in Ministers' offices outside the confines and disciplines of the Civil Service, certainly against the background of the Official Secrets Act. I have not met anyone who wants that situation. Special advisers should be subject to the same disciplines as civil servants are in general.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the higher civil servants, such as permanent secretaries, are political advisers and that they do not always give the right advice, especially if their bias is in a direction other than that of this side of the House?

I do not accept that senior civil servants are politically partial in their advice. They endeavour to give the facts on which Ministers can arrive at their decisions.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many letters he has received on the subject of inflation-proofed pensions for the Civil Service.

During the last 12 months my Department has received some 150 letters on the subject of pensions inflation-proofed under or by analogy with the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971. Not all the letters specify which of the many categories of public service pensions so covered the writer has in mind.

How does the Minister reconcile the fact that the pensions of those civil servants who have already retired will be greater than the pensions of those about to retire because they have had their pay held down under the Government's pay policy?

The hon. Gentleman has referred to a major difficulty. My Department is currently giving attention to that difficulty.

Will my hon. Friend look at my letter to him in which I pointed out that the man who is alleged to have invented or to have brought in the wage freeze, Lord Armstrong, retired a year before he should have done, postponed drawing his pension for 12 months, and then took on the chairmanship of a bank at £25,000 a year, having declared himself to be in favour of a wage freeze? Will my hon. Friend see that that is done for all the people of this country?

I have read every letter that has been written to me since I took on my present responsibilities. I assure my hon. Friend that the individual to whom he referred has been treated no differently from other civil servants in the same position.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is satisfied that sufficient independent advice regarding the cost of inflation-proofing pensions is available to the Pay Research Unit.

The task of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit is to identify comparable jobs outside the Civil Service and to provide the facts about the rates of pay and other conditions of service—including pensions—attaching to these jobs. The rates of pay thus provided are subsequently adjusted for differences in pension contributions and benefits in the way described in my reply to the hon. Member on 1st December last. The Pay Research Unit does not therefore need advice on the cost of inflation-proofing a pension for its work.

Is the Minister satisfied that the difference of 1·75 per cent. currently deducted from civil servants' pay is adequate to reflect the differences between the Civil Service pensions scheme and outside pension schemes? As few outside pension schemes are inflation proofed beyond 5 per cent. a year and the cost of covering inflation at the 10 per cent. rate as opposed to 5 per cent. may be estimated as requiring an additional contribution equal to 12 per cent. of salary, would it not be sensible for the PRU to take more independent advice so that it will be seen to be impartial?

I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer to him on 8th December 1975, which I think explained the point he has made about the 1·75 per cent.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement about cuts in Civil Service manpower.

As I explained to my hon. Friend on 23rd February, the exercise referred to in Command Paper 6393 is aimed at reducing expenditure on Civil Service manpower and related administration. Departments are at present reviewing thoroughly all aspects of their work, and decisions on the precise nature of the reductions in expenditure will be taken in the light of this review. I cannot at this stage forecast the timing or content of these decisions.

Does my hon. Friend realise the deep anxiety which the talk of redundancies in the Civil Service is causing within the Service? Will he make an early announcement about the cuts?

I am aware of the anxieties among civil servants, which have been increased in recent months by Press reports. I will endeavour to communicate the decision as soon as possible.

Is the Minister planning completely to close down or reduce the extent of the operations of the Civil Service College in Edinburgh, which is the only such college in the north of Britain?

I appreciate the anxiety of the civil servants who are at present employed at the Edinburgh centre of the Civil Service College. I assure the hon. Gentleman that as part of the Government's intention to reduce expenditure on staff and related administrative costs, announced in the Public Expenditure White Paper, a number of savings are being considered within my Department but no decisions have yet been made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the non-industrial Civil Service has grown by over 30 per cent. in the last 12 years, despite the investment of huge amounts of money in computers and other manpower saving devices? Is it not time for Ministers, as well as advising private enterprise that it should become more efficient, to ensure that the official machine becomes more efficient?

There has been an expansion of the non-industrial Civil Service. That is the justification for the current study into Civil Service manpower.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement on the progress made in dispersing Civil Service jobs to Glasgow.

As I told the hon. Member on 23rd February, the sites for the main Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Overseas Development dispersals were announced on 3rd February. I understand that the Departments concerned are continuing to press forward with the detailed planning of the moves which are due to take place in 1982 to 1984 and in 1980 respectively.

Can the hon. Gentleman give an assurance about when the contracts will be placed for the building of these new offices? Is he aware that, because of the defence cuts and other problems facing the Government, and because no provision appears to have been made in the Public Expenditure White Paper for the new offices, there is growing concern in Glasgow about whether his Department can stick to the programme?

I am in some difficulty about adding to the information I have already made available to the hon. Gentleman and to the House on this matter. But I assure the hon. Gentleman that the question of the letting of contracts is for the Property Services Agency and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he is satisfied with the procedures for establishing the numerical order of oral Questions.

Yes.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that when oral Questions arrive at the printers, they are taken out of a pouch, divided into two or three piles, put together back into one package, and that there is no shuffling? Will he, therefore, purchase a revolving drum out of which oral Questions could be taken in order to ensure a true lottery?

I believe that the hon. Gentleman has visited the printers and seen this process. I am assured that he saw the Questions being shuffled. An oral Question may be put down 10 sitting days in advance of the day on which it is due to be answered. The first batch of Questions must go to the printers by 4 o'clock on that day. They are shuffled. If the hon. Gentleman has an alternative method to suggest, I have no doubt that the Clerks would be prepared to look at it, but perhaps it would be more suitable to let a sessional Select Committee on Procedure look at it.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is no procedure for establishing the numerical order of oral Questions, that the whole lot is mixed up, that the bundle then goes to the printers by 4 o'clock, and thereafter it is a matter of blind luck as to which Questions the printers take first out of the bundle?

I have already explained that at 4 o'clock they are put out on the table, shuffled, and taken out in random order.

As one who occasionally managed to get top for Questions to the Prime Minister in the last Parliament, may I support the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Waver-tree (Mr. Steen) that the Leader of the House should buy a very large drum and give it a very big shuffle indeed?

I think that there would not be room at the premises used by the Editorial Supervisor for a large drum. No doubt the Clerks will have listened to these Questions and will see what can be done to improve the procedure. But I have satisfied myself, as I think the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Steen) has, that the present system does not give any advantage to any hon. Member.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will take steps to ensure that any employment vacancies occurring within the Houses of Parliament, whatever their status, shall be properly advertised in employment exchanges and other appropriate places.

Most employment vacancies in the House of Commons Departments are already notified to employment exchanges and they are usually also advertised in the national or local Press as appropriate. The procedure for filling vacancies in the staff of the House of Lords and of other Departments and organisations within the Houses of Parliament is a matter for the particular authorities concerned.

If that is the case, can my right hon. Friend tell me how many Serjeants at Arms, for instance, have been pneumoconiotic miners? Does he not recognise that there is a feeling among hon. Members that they have inadequate control over the recruitment methods in the House and that priority is still given to ex-military personnel? Does he not agree that that situation ought to be remedied very quickly?

The position of Serjeant at at Arms is one of the exceptions. I pointed out in my reply how most employment vacancies in the House of Commons were filled. There are one or two exceptions, the post of Serjeant at Arms being one of them, because he is not an official of the House but an officer of the Royal Household. The appointment is in the gift of the Queen.

That is the trouble.

My hon. Friend will recall that in 1962 the then Prime Minister announced procedures under which, in respect of any future appointment, the Queen would, before exercising her prerogative, initiate informal discussions with Mr. Speaker, who would take soundings in whatever manner might be convenient to enable him to inform Her Majesty of any feelings there might be in the House. My hon. Friend will also recall that our right hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bottomley) recently chaired a Committee which inquired into the organisation of the staff of the House. That Committee expressed the hope that you, Mr. Speaker, would find it convenient to take soundings on these matters from your Commission as well as from hon. Members.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the vacancies arising in the Houses of Parliament has been rather over-advertised in the national Press, and that all the applicants so far seem to be totally unsuitable?

At least it was advertised.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that some of us are concerned not so much about the next vacancy in the post of Serjeant at Arms as about the recruitment and screening of those who work in the navvying jobs and as casual labour in the House of Commons kitchens? Will he undertake to investigate outside employment agencies' lack of screening and of examination of national insurance cards and so on, a lack which appears to occur before people come to work here?

When I made a statement last week and answered Questions, I indicated new steps to be taken, including the demand for some kind of identification of applicants for casual jobs. I believe that you, Mr. Speaker, are to make a statement today on security, and I do not wish to anticipate that.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is need for consideration by the Government of the whole question of public appointments, whether in the House of Commons or elsewhere? Is it not time that the great tome, the "book of the great and the good", was got rid of and we reached the stage when committees were established to look at applicants for jobs, as in local authorities, for example, to go into background and finally to decide on merit, rather than who were an applicant's father and mother?

That may well be so, but as I have said, the Bottomley Committee considered this appointment and decided to recommend no change.

May I thank my right hon. Friend and whomever else was responsible—mainly you, Mr. Speaker—for the fact that the House now employs a greater proportion of physically disabled people? Does not my right hon. Friend agree that many jobs in this House could and should be done by physically disabled people, although I am pleased with the larger number employed over the past few months?

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. I think that the House is employing just about its quota of disabled.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will give his estimate of the birth rate for 1976 based on existing population trends.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will give his estimate of the birth rate for 1976 based on existing population trends.

I cannot at present give a precise estimate, but I would expect the birth rate to be a little lower than the provisional estimate of the birth rate for 1975 of 12·4 live births per thousand population.

on the figures for a long series of years, given in a Written Answer last Friday, that would put the birth rate below the death rate for the first time ever—a birth-rate one-third below what it was in the early 1960s. What assessment do the Government make of the full economic and social consequences of such a large drop in the birth rate?

The figures are even more significant than that. The drop between 1947 and 1975 was from 20·7 to 12·4. The Government are conducting a good deal of research into the matter. A full report on population and the drop in the birth rate will be published next year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one school of thought considers that the population of the country ought to decline overall? Do the Government have any considered policy either for or against that view?

We hold the view that this is a matter for individual families. There is a body of opinion which regards the present drop as creating all sorts of difficulties in the longer term. The Government are conducting research into these matters and I ask my hon. Friend to await the report to be published within the next 12 months.