asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many additional beds he expects to secure for the National Health Service in North Wales by phasing out pay beds; and what representations he has received on this matter from individuals and organisations in North Wales.

The use of 35 beds as pay beds has been authorised in the Clwyd and Gwynedd area health authority areas in North Wales. As these authorisations are withdrawn, the accommodation will become entirely available for NHS patients. Since the Goodman proposals were published my right hon. and learned Friend has received 11 repre- sentations from organisations and individuals in North Wales.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the total absence of alternative facilities if this exiguous number of pay beds is further pared? Is he aware that there will also be a grievous loss of part-time consultants on which the National Health Service in North Wales very much depends?

I cannot agree with the hon. Member when he talks about a grievous loss. The average occupancy of the 35 pay beds has been about 50 per cent. in recent years and the release of eight pay beds is not expected to affect significantly the amount of private practice.

In view of the very low use made of pay beds in the whole of Wales, will the Minister meet the Welsh Committee of the Health Services Board as soon as it is established and suggest that it phases out all pay beds in Wales without further delay?

I shall certainly consider the hon. Member's first suggestion. Throughout the whole of Wales, which has a population of 2½ million, there are 60 pay beds. That might help to put the situation in context.

asked the Secretary of State Wales if he has had any recent discussions with the British Steel Corporation concerning future development plans.

My Department maintains close contact with the British Steel Corporation on all matters affecting the steel industry in Wales.

As the Llanwern works is now producing a lot of steel, does my right hon. and learned Friend not feel the time is now opportune to initiate discussions with the BSC with a view to completing the long-overdue iron ore terminal, which is very much part of the future success of this great works?

I am aware of the fight that my hon. Friend has put up for this project and for the Newport docks in general over many years. He will know that the primary responsibility for developments of this kind rests with the British Transport Docks Board, in consultation with the BSC. Ministerial responsibility rests with the Minister for Transport. I am sure that my hon. Friend was very pleased with the recent opening of the new access road, which will help Newport docks and for which he has fought very hard for a long time.

In view of the uneasiness in the steel industry in Wales, would the right hon. and learned Gentleman be in favour of establishing a steel corporation for Wales once we have a Welsh Assembly?

I see no economic advantage in that kind of suggestion. At the end of March a new Welsh division of the BSC was established, and it has considerable autonomy.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the main complaint of steel workers in Wales is the grievous lack of communication between top management and workers in the Welsh plants? In the consideration of future development plans, will he ensure, through his right hon. Friend, that these communications are improved?

My right hon. Friend will know that as far as there is any Government responsibility under statute, it is my right hon. Friend's, but these are matters essentially within the province of the corporation itself.

In view of the importance of this matter to both Port Talbot and Shotton, and in view of the continuing grave uncertainty about the future of Shotton, can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell us when we are likely to have a statement on the matter?

No one is more aware than my hon. Friend and I of the need for a decision on a matter that is of fundamental importance to the steel industry and the country as a whole. A statement will be made as soon as possible.

Given the labour relations that have existed within the steel industry in Wales, and as a new division has now been established, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider the possibility of experimenting with much more direct employee control within the industry to give more industrial democracy within what is, after all, a State corporation?

The hon. Member will know that that is not a matter for me. The industrial relations aspects are dealt with in the Act setting up the BSC. Perhaps the hon. Member will look at that and address his question to my right hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the liaison between area health authorities and local authorities in Wales through the joint consultative councils.

In general, yes.

Is the Minister aware that the Department of Health and Social Security in England has recently produced a consultative circular about joint care planning? Is it not time that the Welsh Office produced a similar circular, to ensure the joint financing of projects that will particularly benefit services to the mentally ill in Wales?

The fact that the Department of Health and Social Security does something does not mean the Welsh Office must do it. We are considering the question of joint financing between area health authorities and the county councils in the development of personal social services, but my right hon. and learned Friend has not yet reached a decision. Any sensible proposals will be looked at carefully, subject to the availability of finance.

Has the Welsh Office considered the possibility of bringing the administration of health services under one of the elected authorities—either district or county councils—and leaving district hospitals under the Assembly? Does he agree that, instead of having social services under one council and health services under another, it would be very much better to have them both under one authority?

I am always interested in such suggestions, but it seems that the Welsh Assembly will be in existence in a very few years, and the hon. and learned Gentleman may agree that at this moment the best thing would be not to reorganise the service again but to bear in mind the creation of the Assembly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to implement the recommendations of the Hughes Parry Report on the Welsh language with regard to its recommendations for the activities of local authorities.

It is for local authorities to act on those recommendations which apply to them. It has been the consistent policy of successive Governments, and it is most certainly my policy, to encourage authorities to give a proper place to the Welsh language in their activities.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that certain councils, such as the Rhymney Valley Council and the Taff-Ely Council, have not only failed to respond in the language of correspondents but have refused to accept letters in the Welsh language? In these circumstances, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman send a circular to all councils in Wales drawing to their attention the recommendations of the Hughes Parry Report, if he cannot go further and direct them to abide by the spirit of the report?

The hon. Gentleman may know that Welsh Office Circular No. 82 was issued in 1969 by my predecessor, now Mr. Speaker, which made the position quite clear and left no doubt about one's hopes for what local authorities would do. It is a matter for them, after all. I hope that the observations that have been made today, with my answers, will be sufficient for local authorities and will indicate to them my hopes as regards their practice.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that in all parts of the House there is concern at the refusal of local authorities to accept letters in the Welsh language from Welshmen? Of course, it is a matter for the local authorities, but, as Members of Parliament, we always accept letters in the language in which they are written, and this must be a matter of real concern to all Welshmen.

I have made my position quite clear, as does the circular issued by the Welsh Office in 1969. I have nothing to add.

the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any proposals to make on the method of lection of water and sewerage charges.

Water authorities are responsible for deciding the method of collecting charges for water services. I understand that the Welsh authority has no plans for extending present direct billing arrangements, which are confined to Clwyd and Anglesey.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this idea that direct billing should take place throughout Wales is being floated, and will he be careful in considering whether to accept such advice? Is he further aware that the costs will be astronomical if we proceed along this path? Will he ensure, however, that local authorities can separately bill, within the same envelope, the amount of water rates? Members of the public are not fully aware of these costs. Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that water charges become rebatable in the near future?

We are certainly aware of the difficulties that have arisen, and I take my hon. Friend's point. I have written to the Welsh National Water Development Authority asking it to pay particular attention to the overriding need to avoid any net increase in public expenditure as a consequence of the extension of direct billing.

While appreciating the formidable amount of capital expenditure that the Welsh National Water Development Authority has to tackle because of the defects of the system in the past, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether the present programme is not somewhat over-ambitious over the shorter period, and, therefore, the charges are likely to be upgraded too suddenly?

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. In fact, the proposals for expenditure by the Welsh National Water Development Authority are, in the main, confined to items affecting the health of our people, housing, and industrial development. There are priority schemes, and these are going forward.

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that direct billing would make nonsense of charging on rateable values for domestic water rates?

The minor extension that has taken place to give a uniform system in Clwyd does not accord with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. The Welsh National Water Development Authority has said that its minor extension to give a uniform pattern throughout Clwyd is estimated to save £11,000 per annum.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received alleging the misuse by firms in Wales of the system of Government industrial incentives.

I have received five such representations in recent months, all of which have been or are being investigated.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that very serious allegations have been made against firms in the Rhymney Valley by the Chairman of the Welsh National Party and that these have received extensive Press publicity, although, apparently, the courage to name the firms publicly was absent?

Order. Four questions are enough for anyone in a supplementary question.

I shall simply ask a fifth question, and then sit down

Order. The hon. Gentleman has had his ration. Fair play.

Since I took over responsibility in Wales for assistance under Section 7 of the Industry Act last July, I have received representations naming only three firms. I have no evidence of widespread misuse. In two cases no evidence was found to substantiate the allegations. The remaining case involves an allegation that falls within the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, who is at present looking into the matter. I have nothing to add.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that details of the case referred to by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Evans) have been submitted to himself and to the Minister of State, Department of Industry, and that that case is being investigated in detail? Therefore, the accusation by the hon. Member for Caerphilly against the Chairman of Plaid Cymru is unfounded.

I have no interest in the Chairman of Plaid Cymru, either to defend or to prosecute him. I have received representations. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry has received representations. Those cases which have been investigated have not been substantiated, and one is being investigated. In fairness to everybody concerned, it is right that the investigation should continue.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the provision of training and retraining facilities in Gwynedd.

I have received representations from my right hon. Friend and from the North Wales branch of the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions.

I am obliged to my right hon. and learned Friend. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has allocated substantial resources for industrial training and retraining, will my right hon. and learned Friend ensure that some of this money is spent in areas of high unemployment, such as Gwynedd? Will he press for the establishment of a suitable skillcentre in the area of Bangor, to meet the requirements of the population of the catchment area concerned?

My right hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Hughes) has led a consistent campaign on this matter. I am very concerned that there shall be adequate facilities. There are training facilities in North-West Wales in the further education centres and employment establishments, and I understand that 178 people are now being trained in a wide variety of trades at these establishments. My right hon. Friend has been campaigning with me and with others for something over and above what is already being done, and he has a Question down to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment tomorrow. My right hon. Friend is aware of the whole issue, and I am ensuring that the representations made to me at my meeting with the Confederation of Shipbuilding and Engineering Unions in December are being placed before my right hon. Friend.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the case made out by the Gwynedd County Council for a skillcentre? Does he not think it wise to encourage the Welsh Development Agency to take an interest in this?

The hon. Gentleman will know, or should know, that this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. Negotiations are taking place between the county council and the Training Services Agency. That matter is now being considered actively, in terms of what is proper to be done and what facilities are required, given the amount that they would have to cater for. Those are the current negotiations between the county council and the TSA.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the construction of the remaining stages of the M4.

There are 27 miles already in use. Work is proceeding on a further 29.7 miles, which should be in use by the end of 1977. This will leave three sections to be completed—the two sections north of Cardiff and Bridgend, and the section between the Morriston and Port Talbot bypasses. A dual carriageway already exists between Morriston and Port Talbot.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his wisdom and political courage in giving priority to the motorway, which is the single most important contribution to industrial development in South Wales currently under development. However, will he say something about the Port Talbot-Morriston section—the Baglan-Lonlas part of the motorway—which appears to be the major missing section? When can we expect to have some further information about that?

That depends on the satisfactory completion of statutory procedures and the availability of funds. It is at an early stage of preparation. I can say that it has been necessary to seek the views of other bodies about these proposals. Until that process has been completed I cannot even say when the preferred route will be announced. However, to hearten my hon. Friend, who is a bonny fighter for the motorway for his city, I can tell the House that £100 million is being spent on the M4 on projects already started and planned, and the greater part of the motorway should be in existence by 1979.

Will the Minister and his right hon. and learned Friend consider the urgency of the need for improvements to other major highways? In particular, will be consider improving the roads from Swansea to Caernarvon and from Cardiff to Caernarvon in a way that would take an hour off the journey?

I take the hon. Gentleman's point. I restate the priority of the Welsh Office—namely, east-west communications. As soon as the M4 is largely completed, the greater part of our expenditure will be switched to North Wales.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a widespread feeling that it is urgently important that there should be a link between this motorway and the airport at Rhoose? Will he give urgent consideration to a suitable interchange which can be reserved for that purpose?

I can never deny the pleadings of the hon. Gentleman for his constituency, and especially for the important airport that he has mentioned. I should like to think about his suggestion. Perhaps we can correspond about it.

I agree that great progress has been made in South Wales to improve road communications, but is the hon. Gentleman aware that all the schemes that were prepared for Cardiganshire have been shelved? What is the Welsh Office to do for Mid-Wales?

We never forget Mid-Wales, because my right hon. and learned Friend is from that area, and he instructs us not to forget it. The hon. Gentleman is in correspondence with me literally at this moment. I can quote chapter and verse the schemes that are going ahead in his part of the world.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will name and list in the Official Report the principal existing financial provisions from which finance for the proposed Development Board for Rural Wales will be transferred, together with the amounts involved.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to Clause 10 of the Bill and to its Explanatory and Financial Memorandum. I anticipate that the board will be principally funded from financial pro- visions for relevant activities of existing organisations in the area.

Will the Minister confirm that under the Bill no additional funds are being provided for mid-Wales? Over how long a period will the £25 million be expected to last that is referred to in the papers he has mentioned? What are the main areas for expenditure?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is anticipating the Second Reading debate on the Bill. I assure him that we shall be making a full statement about the functions of the board at an appropriate stage during the consideration of the Bill. We are anxious to ensure at the outset that the Board shall have funds commensurate with its functions

Although the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) failed to give the Bill a welcome, I can tell my hon. Friend that there is an overwhelming welcome for it in my constituency. We look forward to its speedy implementation.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The views that he has expressed are the views that have come to me through most of the consultations that he have had

Many people in Mid-Wales welcome the Bill, but the Minister has not answered the question about funding. Is it not right that most of the funds will nowadays be administered in a different way, by different bodies? Is any additional sum to be contributed for the purpose of the Development Board for Rural Wales in Mid-Wales?

We have published the Bill, and if the hon. and learned Gentleman had read Clause 10 he would have seen that it says specifically that the financial allocation of £25 million may be increased, subject to order, to £40 million. I invite the hon. and learned Gentleman to read Clause 10, as it explains in detail the point he has raised.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning his consultative paper on the Development Board for Rural Wales; and what reply he has given.

Representations were received from 68 bodies and 10 meetings were held. In general, the Government's proposals have been given a wide measure of support.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the criticism that there is an overlap of functions between the board, the local authorities and the Welsh Development Agency? Will he take this opportunity of making it clear exactly what the board could do that the agency could not do?

Yes, this criticism has been made. I think that when we met the various bodies concerned we were able to satisfy them that there need be no conflict between the agency and the board. We see the board principally concerning itself with industrial development and the associated infrastructure problems in that area of Wales

Has the hon. Gentleman received representations about the fact that the board will have no power to intervene in the primary trade and industry in rural Wales, and that it will have no power to intervene in extractive industry or to aid agriculture?

I confirm—this was clearly set out in the consultative document—that the board will not have powers to intervene in agriculture industries. That is because we believe that such decisions affecting agriculture must be within the framework of the common agricultural policy and the EEC's rules on national aid.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we welcome that statement? Is he prepared to write into the Bill clauses that clarify the matter? At present the Bill does not exclude agriculture in any way.

I am prepared to listen to and consider any amendment the hon. Gentleman may care to table. However, I wish he had spent a little more time on his homework and less time on the mischief-making in which he took part in the Western Mail last Saturday

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps his Depart- ment is taking to reduce the high level of truancy in Welsh secondary schools.

I had extensive consultations with educational bodies in Wales following last year's report on absenteeism, and am now evaluating the results of measures being taken by local education authorities in Wales to combat this serious problem. I am also considering what further steps might be taken.

Is the Minister aware that many of us look upon this as a matter of some urgency? Is he further aware that the extraordinary level of truancy in schools results in levels of numeracy and literacy that are severe barriers to employment prospects for young people? Will he give a pledge that the Welsh Office is considering the matter with a sense of real urgency?

That pledge can be given immediately, with conviction. However, the Department's rôle is to identify the problems and to suggest appropriate lines of action. Under existing legislation, the practical measures that can be taken in both these areas are the responsibility of the LEAs, the school governors, the head teachers and the staff.

Before my hon. Friend comes to any conclusions on this matter, will he institute some form of inquiry into the effects of streaming on this problem, since streaming creates failures in our schools, and this might well have a long-term effect?

I always listen with great seriousness to suggestions from my hon. Friend, because he is an expert in education. I shall bear his suggestion in mind. The change in the summer leaving date will remove one difficulty, since pupils will no longer be obliged to remain at school after completing external examinations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the progress made in the matter of establishing a national television channel for Wales which will give the Welsh language pride of place.

The Government are committed to introducing a fourth television service in Wales in which Welsh language programmes will be given priority. The practical considerations have been set out in the report of the Siberry Working Party, which this Government appointed. In current economic circumstances an immediate start has not been possible, but I have the matter fully under review

In view of the extensive and undeniable injury which English television is doing to the Welsh language and, therefore, to Welsh culture in Wales, especially among children and young people, and bearing in mind also that last year £8 million was spent on establishing a television channel in Germany for some thousands of British troops—that is, at much the same cost as would be required for establishing a Welsh channel—will the right hon. and learned Gentleman now give an early date for the establishment of a national Welsh channel that will broadcast Welsh language programmes at peak viewing hours?

The hon. Gentleman knows the whole situation regarding the demand in Wales from both Welsh-speaking Welshmen and non-Welsh-speaking Welshmen. I assure him that our economic situation made it impossible to implement what we recognise as a great demand in Wales. As I said, the matter is under review, and will be kept under review, and I hope that a favourable decision will be made. The hon. Gentleman will know also that there is not even unanimity among Welsh-speaking Welshmen regarding the need for this channel.

I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware that many parts of Wales are unable to receive the present Welsh channels. Is he in a position to tell Welsh people in those areas when they will be able to receive the present Welsh channels?

That is why the Home Secretary made it abundantly clear in his announcement that priority in concentrating on the UHF coverage, which is so badly needed in many parts of Mid-Wales, would be maintained. That is consistent with the Crawford Committee's view of the matter—that this priority should not be lost in the whole examination of what money and resources are available. I know of many parts in both Mid-Wales and North Wales where this must obviously be the paramount consideration.

Bearing in mind current economic difficulties, have the Government looked into the possibility of establishing a channel on a less costly basis than that envisaged in the Siberry Report?

The hon. Gentleman speaks with some authority in this matter—I say that with sincerity—but he will know that we set up the working party under Mr. Siberry, that evidence was heard from both television organisations, and that the whole situation was examined. I am sure that if it were possible to proceed on a less "gold-plated" basis—if that is what the hon. Gentleman has in mind when he makes his criticism—that must have beeen one of the matters examined by the committee. The committee came to the conclusion that the proper kind of service would be the one that it contemplated. If there were evidence that for a smaller sum a worthwhile and acceptable service could be provided, I should be glad to hear from the hon. Gentleman any representations and expert advice that he could give, but, having had the advice of the working party, I doubt whether it can be done in such a way as to establish a worthwhile service.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will compare the total cost of industrial subsidies in 1974 and 1975; and what is his forecast of the figure for 1976.

Expenditure on support to industry, at 1975 public expenditure survey prices and net of repayments, was £1,236 million in 1974–75 and £1,531 million in 1975–76. The forecast for 1976–77, including investment by the National Enterprise Board, is £1,453 million.

As the 1975 figure of £1,530 million represents, for the average household, about £125 in taxation per year, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that subsidies to industry are going too far, especially since these figures do not include sums for the Department of Energy and industries that it sponsors?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the capacity to pay tax depends upon the taxpayer's ability to earn income and, therefore, on the efficiency of industry. I am sure that he would not suggest that we were wrong to attempt to regenerate industry and to get new investment in order to build up new industries in the place of old.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether his Department has agreed with the National Enterprise Board and British Leyland the improvements in productivity and industrial relations that the Prime Minister said must be achieved before further tranches of public money can be made available to British Leyland.

The confidential operating plans which British Leyland has agreed with the NEB for the current year include defined targets on many aspects of performance. But as my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) on 5th April, we should be judging whether there has been adequate improvement in productivity and industrial relations rather than applying an arithmetical formula.

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his appointment. We welcome his knowledge and contribution on these matters, but may I ask him what his reply meant? If the situation is to be judged overall, is there an overall bench mark that must be set, and is that to be made known to the House, so that we may form our own opinion on whether the objectives are being met?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind remarks, but, much as I hate to disappoint him, I cannot give him some primitive touchstone by which he may test the performance of British Leyland when the time comes for decisions to be made. As my right hon. Friend said on 5th April, there is no conveniently simple arithmetical formula available to us. In response to his last point, I should tell the hon. Gentleman that when the National Enterprise Board has made its report and the Government have announced their decision, it will, of course, be brought before the House.

I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend on his appointment. Will he take it that, contrary to what Opposition Members may think, and contrary to the sustained barrage of cirticism directed at British Leyland, considerable progress is being made with regard to both manpower productivity and reorganisation in the corporation? Does he agree that one of the biggest dangers to progress in the corporation is the uncertainty among both management and workers on the shop floor, and that one step that could be taken to remove that uncertainty would be immediately to release the funds required for the prospective development programmes of the corporation, which would also provide a much-needed stimulus to the machine tool industry as well?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend also for his kind words. I know that he speaks with great expertise in these matters. I must tell him that the conditions for the release of the next stage of public finance will be the National Enterprise Board's and the Government's satisfaction that there has been adequate progress in achieving higher productivity and better industrial relations.

How are those who work at British Leyland supposed to be able to reach the objectives when nobody will tell them what the objectives are? The hon. Gentleman says that there is no convenient arithmetical formula. Has he not read the CPRS Report, which includes just such a proposal for a formula? Do the Government accept that?

I am not sure how far the hon. Gentleman understands the participation machinery in British Leyland. He ought to realise that management has discussed specific production targets with the work force through the new participation machinery.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what help the Government give generally in helping prosperous firms to expand so as to increase employment facilities in the United Kingdom.

The most important incentives for increasing investment are the 100 per cent. first-year tax allowance for expenditure on plant and machinery, available throughout the country, and, in the assisted areas, the regional development grant. A wide range of other instruments, including selective financial assistance, are also available for increasing investment and job opportunities.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the surest ways of reducing unemployment is to help those industries which are expanding and prosperous? Has he had a survey conducted in the Department to discover how many British firms have expanded abroad in recent years—firms that could have expanded here but have expanded abroad because they have been given special help by Governments in, say, France and Holland to do so?

As the hon. and learned Gentleman knows, we are carrying out a series of sectoral examinations of our industry in conjunction with the NEDC, and these will help us to identify problems where they exist over a wide range of British industry. We also have the accelerated investment scheme, which is being used to bring forward investment in what is still a trough situation. This is proving to be a very worthwhile venture on the Government's part and is giving returns of about 7 to 1 in terms of investment in relation to Government expenditure.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many Civil Service jobs are based in Scotland.

As I advised my hon. Friend on 23rd February, there are at present 66,000 civil servants in Scotland.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the dispersal of jobs such as that now taking place in the Ministry of Overseas Development to areas of high unemployment like West-Central Scotland is a valuable contribution towards easing the unemployment situation in such areas? Will he give an assurance that, despite rumours and threats of staffing cuts in the Civil Service, the dispersal of jobs will be extended?

The Government take seriously their commitment on the dispersal of jobs.

Is the Minister aware of the real concern in Scotland about the continued delays in the programme for transferring 10,000 Ministry of Defence and Foreign Office jobs to Scotland? May we have an assurance that the transfer will take place and that the dates will be adhered to? When shall we have news of the decision on the contract for the building of offices in St. Enoch Square, Glasgow?

We have made considerable progress in the detailed planning for the dispersal of Ministry of Defence jobs to Glasgow. I can give a specific assurance that the Government seek to honour their commitments on dispersal for the years 1982–84.

Is the Minister aware that from the Questions that I have tabled and the answers I have received it is obvious that the North-West Region has done badly in the dispersal of jobs?

Order. The Question is about Scotland.

May I ask the Minister to bear in mind the real need for the Merseyside area to have jobs allocated to it?

Order. This is not fair. Hon. Members must put down their own Questions if they wish to ask about other areas.

Is it not the case, Mr. Speaker, that if a Question is asked about dispersal to one part of the country it is also valid to consider its effect on other areas?

If the hon. Gentleman is seeking to challenge me, may I remind him that the Question is about how many Civil Service jobs are being dispersed to Scotland. It is clear that if we are to have any order in the House we must try to make questions relate to the Order Paper.

Does the Minister agree that one of the difficulties that we face is the fear amongst civil servants in England caused by the noise being made by the party that is fighting for Scottish independence? Will the Minister say how many accounts in the Post Office Savings Bank, which employs 5,000 civil servants, are Scottish and how many are English?

Questions relating to the Post Office should be put to the Secretary of State for Industry.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many civil servants are at present employed.

At 1st January 1976 there were 745,120 civil servants in post. The comparable figure for 1st April 1976 should be available later this month.

As that figure represents an increase, since October 1974, of 58,000 in the number of civil servants, can the Minister say, in view of the crippling level of taxation in this country, what the Government are doing to control administrative costs, as foreshadowed in the February White Paper?

I accept that there has been an appreciable increase in the number of civil servants, but I remind the House that the figures that I have given today include 20,862 civil servants employed by the Manpower Services Commission and its agencies who became civil servants from 1st January 1976 under the provisions of the Employment Protection Act.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the political control of civil servants, in view of remarks made by recently—departed Ministers? Is he satisfied that civil servants are not exercising undue influence to inhibit the Government's radical programme?

Civil servants give advice: Ministers take decisions.

Is the Minister not slightly perturbed by reports today that a number of civil servants in the Department of Health and Social Security are earning less than those to whom they pay benefit?

I am disturbed by those reports, but whether they represent fact is open to question.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent representations he has received regarding the inflation-proofing of Civil Service pensions.

I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for City of Chester (Mr. Morrison) on 29th March 1976. Since that date my Department has received a further 10 or so letters on the inflation-proofing of pensions under the Pensions (Increase) Act 1971.

Is the Minister aware of the concern felt by many people that the inflation-proofing of Civil Service pensions, coupled with the annual increments paid to public servants, and £6 a week on top, is leading to discrimination in favour of the public sector? As pay control continues for another year this inequity will become greater. Will the Minister conduct an urgent investigation into the subject?

My Department is reviewing the whole position of public service pension arrangements. As I have indicated previously, the review will take into account the economic circumstances prevailing when the matter comes up for review later this year.

Does the Minister realise that inflation-proof pensions put civil servants in a specially privileged position compared with all other employees? Surely that is a tremendous factor in the total package over a man's lifetime and should be taken into account by the new review board.

I do not accept that inflation-proof arrangements put public servants in a privileged position. The provisions for civil servants are determined on the basis of fair comparisons. The basis of the present levels of salary, pay and pensions in the Civil Service was arrived at as a result of the activities and studies of the Pay Research Unit.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what advice is now given to special advisers with regard to their political activities.

In December 1974 the previous Prime Minister issued a memorandum of guidance to Ministers in charge of Departments about the terms and conditions of employment of special advisers. This guidance still stands.

Is the Minister aware that when I was a special adviser I was expected to, and did, resign from my ward committee to conform to the strict rules that were then in force and that should still be in force? Is he satisfied that those same strict rules are enforced now?

Yes. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his advice, which he still gives to Ministers on this subject. Special advisers will be expected to conduct themselves with a proper discretion and to behave with circumspection.

Can the Minster say whether the cost of special advisers will be taxable as a benefit in kind after the Finance Bill has gone through—that is, if one can call it a benefit after last Thursday's local elections?

Whether advice is a benefit or not can be judged on the basis of the last supplementary question by the hon. Member for Hove (Mr. Sainsbury).

Will the Government publish the memorandum of December 1974, which was issued by the former Prime Minister and which the Government have refused to publish?

As the House was told on 4th February, it has not been the practice to publish such memoranda.

What is the point of having special political advisers if they have to remove themselves from political activity?

I can only suggest that my hon. Friend has not appreciated the significance of the reply that I have already given. should explain that special advisers are generally regarded as civil servants and their participation in national political activities is inhibited, but the nature of their appointments in no way rules out contacts with their political parties.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he is yet able to make a statement on whether the legislation on devolution will consist of one or two Bills.

No, Sir. The Government are still considering the representations we have received on this subject.

Will my hon. Friend, whom I congratulate on his new job, give an assurance that the Government will not be swayed from their course by the crowd of reactionary Tory backwoodsmen and big business interests who founded the Keep Britain United Club at the weekend? Does he agree that to renege on the devolution proposals now would play into the hands of those separatists on the Opposition Benches who want to smash up the United Kingdom, and that the best way to preserve unity is by meaningful devolution?

I thank my hon. Friend for his congratulations. The Government are determined to proceed with the devolution proposals and put them before Parliament in the next Session. We shall no doubt be opposed by blinkered unionists and blinkered separatists, but I believe that in the parliamentary debate we shall beat both.

How does the Minister justify the spending of the substantial sum of £10 million a year on the proposed new bureaucratic Assembly and employing an extra 1,000 civil servants at a time when the number of home helps in his constituency and in mine is being cut back and when about half the output of the teacher training colleges will not be able to find jobs because of the Government's spending cuts?

The justification that I would offer to my constituents, and the justification that the Government offer to the public, is that decentralisation of power increases democratic accountability, which is an objective worth pursuing.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there are some hon. Members on the Labour Benches who have deep reservations about the proposals and who may—I only say "may" at this stage—vote against them if the exercise is to be carried out to the financial disadvantage of the English regions?

I know that my hon. Friend has some reservations, which are shared by other hon. Members. It will be the Government's task to persuade them that the proposals are intended not to harm anyone else in the United Kingdom but to give extra democratic accountability to Scotland and Wales. That need not militate against the interests of England or the regions within England. Hon. Members will understand that more clearly as the debate proceeds.

Is not the main purpose of those who want two Bills to prevent any discussion of Welsh devolution, because of shortage of time in the House?

I shall not comment on the motives of people who make representations to the Government. What I said was that the Government are still considering representations and have not reached a final decision.

As the East Midlands pays more and receives less from central Government, as a proportion, than other regions do, when shall we see the proposals for English devolution?

The Government are still considering the matter in the light of the statement in the White Paper that there would be a discussion document on the question of who receives what from the United Kingdom. My hon. Friend should bear in mind that what Scotland, Wales and various regions receive depends on need and not on proportion of the population.

asked the Lord President of the Council how many representations he has received from chambers of commerce and similar bodies in Scot- Land and Wales in favour of his devolution proposals, and how many against.

None directly, but I understand that my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales have received, respectively, five and one such representations. These opposed the Government's proposals to set up Scottish and Welsh Assemblies.

Is it not thus increasingly clear that employers in Scotland and Wales are increasingly rejecting the Government's devolution proposals? Will the Minister confirm that the Government are thinking of giving more powers to the Scottish Assembly simply to preserve their Scottish parliamentary seats and that this is contrary to the wishes of British industry and the people?

In the latter part of his question the hon. Gentleman did not rise to the level at which this debate should be conducted. This is a matter of important constitutional change, which can be supported by members of all parties or none. We shall not be guided exclusively by the attitude of employers. The chambers of commerce have stated one view. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Scottish CBI came out broadly in favour of devolution, although it had reservations in detail, that the Scottish Council (Develment Industry) accepted the White Paper in principle, and the TUC, the Scottish TUC and the Welsh TUC are all broadly in favour of the proposal.

If I may try to rise to the level of the debate, may I ask the Minister whether he really thinks that it is statesmanlike for the Government to proceed with legislation on this immensely important constitutional issue before there is a far greater consensus in both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom?

There has been a long period of debate, going back to the appointment of the Royal Commission on the Constitution in 1969. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman has not participated in it, but that is not my fault or the fault of the Government. The Government's view is that after this long period of discussion we must now move towards action.

Does the Minister recognise that the best way to resolve the attitude of the people of Scotland over devolution is to call an early General Election?

I do not believe that that would assist the matter in any way. Certainly the hon. Gentleman and his party would not assist it, because they are arguing not for devolution but for the breakup of the United Kingdom.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has to streamline the functions of Parliament.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has to reform procedures within the House of Commons

asked the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for the reform of parliamentary procedures.

I hope to be able to table a motion shortly to appoint a further Select Committee with wide terms of reference.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the road blocks placed in the path of this Government has been the undemocratic House of Lords? Does he deplore the practice of dispensing life peerages, as exemplified by my right hon. Friend the previous Prime Minister—240 in all—and being able to get only 100 to vote Labour in the other place? Will my right hon. Friend, in line with his well-ventilated views of 1968 and 1969, introduce a measure abolishing the House of Lords once and for all?

A few years ago in the House I commented extensively on the question of the House of Lords. I do not think that I could repeat all those comments at the Dispatch Box now. I doubt whether such proposals would fall within the terms of reference of this Select Committee. They are matters for wider debate in the country.

As the present Government's legislation owes more to quantity than quality, will the right hon. Gentleman consider recommending an early General Election or giving the House of Commons a sabbatical year, with hon. Members making their contribution to reducing the public sector borrowing requirement by forgoing their salaries during that year?

I am not quite sure whether any particle of that question has anything to do with the original Question, but I am sure that hon. Members have a whole series of legislative matters that they want to see proceeding through the House. We want to find out whether the whole matter can be organised better than at present. That question should be examined properly by a Select Committee.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many hon. Members could be valuably employed by being a check on the Executive among other things? Will he consider an extension of the Select Committee procedures? Does he agree that there is no excuse for delay in setting up the Select Committee on the reform of our procedures, so that these matters may be deliberated? Is he aware of the intense frustration felt by Back Benchers on the Government side because it has been delayed?

I fully understand the frustration of my hon. Friend and several others of my hon. Friends at the delay. I trust that a motion will be put on the Order Paper very speedily to deal with the matter. I am not prejudging whether the establishment of more Select Committees is the way to deal with the problems of the House. The matter must be all looked at afresh.

Will my right hon. Friend include in the wide terms of reference that he is to give the Select Committee the necessity to examine Question Time, with a view to giving Members from the North-West, in particular, their own Question Time?

Certainly. That would not be excluded, although it might be a better subject for the ordinary sessional Select Committee on Procedure. I am sure that one or other of these Committee will be able to look at the matter.