asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the general conclusions of the working party on security.

I will report the conclusions of the Ministerial Committee to the House in an appropriate way.

This clearly must not be a rush job, but does not the Secretary of State think it is about time that some results came out of this working party? Is he aware of the intense dissatisfaction—indeed, it has been expressed to him—on the Opposition side of the House at what appears to us to be a lack of co-ordination between the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Regular Army and the Ulster Defence Regiment?

I must tell the hon. Gentleman that the purpose of the Working Party on Security, which I instituted at the turn of the year, was to look at the long-term problem of security in the Province. I felt it was time we looked at the long-term problem instead of living from day to day, as we have since the first time soldiers went there in an ad hoc way in 1969.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that recent statements from Opposition spokesmen, describing the security policy as being one of weakness, can only encourage the Provisional IRA? Is he further aware that some of these statements, asking for special forces, can only strike horror into the minds of the minority arid encourage overall the paramilitary forces on the Protestant side, as well as weakening the morale of the security forces as a whole?.

I think it is important that whatever we say is understood by the people of Northern Ireland. It is a place—given the emotions arising from the killings that go on—where many of the things that we say are misunderstood.

When will the Secretary of State reach a decision about increasing the size of the Regular element in the Ulster Defence Regiment by about 800 men—a proposal that has received very wide support from those with great knowledge of the security situation in Northern Ireland?

The question of con rates is a matter for my right hon. Friend, the Defence Secretary, and is being looked at. What is not wanted by my security officers is a Regular battalion, or battalions. They are firmly against that. I shall work within the law with the UDR. I give it my full support. I see it at work in all parts of the Province. We have to take into account, whether we like it or not, that in certain parts of the Province, parts of our security forces are seen and are not supported. What I have to do with the UDR is to help it to be accepted. That is far more important than changes within it.

Will the right hon. Gentleman, in that long-term review, consider the establishment of a small, highly-trained and very well equipped light mobile force, drawn from volunteers from the Army, the police and the Ulster Defence Regiment, as a special measure to seek out and destroy those who are engaged in trying to bring about the destruction of law and order in Northern Ireland?

Certainly, in the rural areas one needs mobility, which, on the whole, is what the Army has provided, together with the police patrol groups. I would not deny that mobility is necessary. But it is sometimes forgotten that what is required is not so much a question of mobility as of knowledge. That point was brought home to me again in examining a case of murder that took place last week. Although such cases are for the police to deal with, I look at these things myself. It is a question of knowledge—of knowing who was involved. The nature of the violence has changed from the large-scale violence on the streets that was happening six years ago. If there is need for mobility with regard to crime detection, I shall do what I can to provide it.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that, allied with the security problem, there is also the problem of making political progress in Northern Ireland, and that the one cannot be settled without the other? In that respect, is he aware of the statements now being made in Northern Ireland by the leader of the Official Unionist Party, calling upon his supporters in Northern Ireland not to co-operate with my right hon. Friend, on the spurious ground that they do not agree with his security attitude?

I am not really worried about that. I do not attend many social functions in Northern Ireland, but I do attend daily meetings with bodies for which I am responsible to this House, and I know that they will not be sympathetic to silly statements of that kind. On the political aspect, we cannot force the politicians of Northern Ireland to agree, as my hon. Friend knows. Agreement has to emerge there. We tried before from this House; we got agreement here and then found that it did not stand up in Northern Ireland. We must not do that again.

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Opposition will not be deterred from doing their duty and making responsible criticism where necessary by unworthy suggestions that that is helpful to the Provisional IRA? Does he agree that what is needed is to restore and improve confidence? We support him in the policy of re-establishing the primacy of the police, but while the RUC are in the front line and policemen and police women are suffering terrible casualties, is there not a case for their having the equipment and techniques to protect themselves?

I accept that. I was not denying it. I was making the point that we have to be careful that we are not misunderstood in Northern Ireland, where it is rather easy to be misunderstood.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the political situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with political leaders in Northern Ireland on the continuation of direct rule.

Since the dissolution of the Constitutional Convention on 5th March, I have had a number of meetings with the leaders and members of political parties in Northern Ireland to discuss issues of common concern, for example direct rule and the security situation. As I told the House on 5th March, it is my firmly-held intention that the Government will continue to discharge fully their responsibility for all aspects of the affairs of Northern Ireland and provide firm, fair and resolute government.

Would my right hon. Friend care to comment on the statement issued by two leading Northern Ireland politicians only this week, suggesting extra-parliamentary activities? Does he agree that that only serves to undermine the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Northern Ireland? Does he not also agree that such activities involve a somewhat curious interpretation of the term "loyalty"?

I agree with my hon. Friend. In Northern Ireland, among some Loyalists, there is always a curious interpretation of what the word means. We saw just that at the time of the Ulster workers' strike. Loyalty to the Queen in Parliament is what I understand by the word. But any such threatened actions taken in Northern Ireland are not for me but for the Chief Constable, who is responsible for dealing with anything that may happen.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how long he envisages direct rule continuing, and whether he does not think that there is at present a political vacuum in Ulster, between the locally-elected people at county council level and the Secretary of State himself?

I do not accept that there is a political vacuum in Northern Ireland. I agree that our aim must be to get a devolved administration there, but, on the whole, people in Northern Ireland have had enough of politics in recent years. I want to get political life nurtured again, but at the right time. When the hon. Gentleman asks me "How long?", I can only reply that I do not know. But I will tell the hon. Gentleman—because there is no sign of devolved government—that if there is no direct rule there is anarchy, because there is no one to hand over to in Northern Ireland. Her Majesty's Government will keep direct rule, perhaps with some changes, for as long as is necessary.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the elected political leaders of Northern Ireland sit in this House, on both sides?

I agree that that is so, and increasingly people are putting matters that concern them through their Westminster Members.

Will my right hon. Friend expand on the phrase that he used—that there is no sign of devolved government?

I meant that the developed government set up from this House fell down. Then we set up a Convention, and asked the politicians to agree. They did not. At the moment I do not see any chance of an agreement in Northern Ireland for a devolved administration.

How can there be any advance if the Secretary of State, through his officials, gives political credibility to organisations like the Provisional Sinn Fein by currently holding these talks? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny that they are going on? Did he read the interview, reported in the Sunday Times last week, with the President of the Provisional Sinn Fein, who said that these talks are very valuable to him? Are they very valuable to the people, and, if so, how?

The hon. Gentleman should not always believe what he reads in newspapers. If what he has been saying is based on newspaper reports, it is not good enough. Over all, my staff have talked to individuals belonging to legal organisations—that is quite clear. In Northern Ireland, many people who belong to legal organisations have views which are anathema to many of us in this House. There have never been negotiations with anyone, but, as I have told the House before, it is valuable to explain Government policy, and my advisers believe that benefit is to be gained from doing so. The exchanges with the Sinn Fein have not been anything like as frequent as many people appear to think, but there was great advantage in them about a year ago.

Is not that answer very unsatisfactory? Is not the real point that the right hon. Gentleman is giving political credibility to the Provisional Sinn Fein? Surely he will tell us that it is representative of a terrorist organisation.

I say again that it is advantageous to me and those working for me to know what is going on in Northern Ireland. There never have been negotiations. I simply state again that these meetings have not been nearly as frequent as the newspapers and others seem to make out, but if it is considered necessary, they will happen again.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the political situation must get more difficult as the security situation deteriorates? The casualty list for this part of the year is greater than in 1972. Whilst we would like to see political progress, it is important to stress that, as the security situation gets more difficult, we as politicians can do very little to get forward movement.

I agree. When the Executive was first formed the heavy bombing campaign that took place in Belfast at the time was probably designed to make life difficult for the Executive. There is a relationship between the two. But I do not believe that political agree-men would end the violence. The two are connected, but it is not the simple connection that some people think. The nature of the violece has changed. The ability of a very small number of people in the Province to cause trouble is much greater than I thought. In the long run I am sure that it is a question not of numbers in the security forces but of their efficiency in dealing with small numbers of people who murder and maim.

I allowed a quarter of an hour on the first two questions because they covered a very wide range of topics, but we shall have to move quicker with the rest of Questions.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the inquiry into housing finance in Northern Ireland.

Average public authority rents in Northern Ireland are lower than in Great Britain. The financial relationship between the Northern Ireland Department of Environment and the Housing Executive is under review, and I hope to make a statement shortly about new arrangements to replace the existing complicated system of grants, subsidies and deficit payments.

Does my hon. Friend agree that while there is a need for the provision of thousands of public authority houses in Northern Ireland, because of the present state of houses there, those houses that are built must be let at a rent that the tenant can afford? In view of the unemployment and deprivation in Northern Ireland, is he satisfied that the present rent structure of local authority housing is not too high?

The present structure is very much in Northern Ireland's favour. In May 1975, the average rent was £2·45, while in England and Wales it was £4·16. Also, there is a rent rebate system in Northern Ireland comparable to that existing in the rest of the United Kingdom. I am disappointed by the take-up of rebates, but that is the fault not of hon. Members in this House but of the bad advice given by non-elected people who should know better.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what restrictions on fishing are expected to be in force in the Man and Mourne fishing grounds in the Irish Sea during, the remainder of 1976.

Discussions are taking place with the industry about the restrictions on herring fishing to be applied this year in the northern part of the Irish Sea. The conservation measures for the Mourne fishery within 12 miles of the coast will not be finalised until the above discussions have been concluded.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do his best to ensure that whatever restrictions are imposed in the Irish Sea—both inside and outside the 12-mile limit and fully accepted by the Mourne fishermen—will be policed against all other parties as far as is humanly possible?

Yes, I can give that assurance.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many United Kingdom parliamentary seats the citizens of Northern Ireland would have if there were parity of electorates between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

If the existing 635 seats for the whole of the United Kingdom were reallocated between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland strictly in accordance with the size of the electorate in each of the several parts of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland would have 16 seats.

As parity of representation is an essential part of democracy, should we not compare like with like, and compare Northern Ireland with Wales and Scotland rather than with the United Kingdom as a whole? That would give Northern Ireland about 20 seats.

Taking account of any future decisions on that subject, the hon. Member must consider it in terms of the current devolution for Scotland and Wales. The devolved powers of the Northern Ireland Government over 50 years were far greater than anything we envisaged for Scotland or Wales.

If Northern Ireland were treated as generously as the Scots are at present, there would be 23 Members for the Province. How can the Secretary of State justify, in essence, giving Scotland an Assembly and denying one to Northern Ireland?

I am not denying anything to Northern Ireland. I deal with Northern Ireland matters and I am pleased to leave Scottish matters to other people.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that if the Government sets up Assemblies in Scotland and Wales, but not in Northern Ireland, the disparity in representation here will be even more marked and more inequitable? Is he content with that state of affairs?

If we get into the position in which a decision is taken that there should be no devolved administration in Northern Ireland, unlike elsewhere—I hope that we never shall get into that position—and that the Province should be integrated as part of the United Kingdom, the argument, in one sense, would be complete. But to imagine that the rest of the United Kingdom should have devolved administration and Northern Ireland should not, in the long run, is something that I do not want to contemplate.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on border co-operation with the Government of the Republic of Ireland.

The Government regard co-operation with the authorities in the Irish Republic as vital in debating terrorism in Northern Ireland. Co-operation continues to improve, and both Governments have now taken steps to bring into effect the provisions of their respective legislation against fugitive offenders.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the British Government have accepted no fewer than 69 complaints from the Irish Government in the last three years, concerning overflying by British military aircraft? This is a continuing source of friction between the North and the South. Will the right hon. Gentleman strongly press the Government of the South for proper overflying rights on both sides of the border?

Even with overflying rights for particular purposes, this sort of overflying does happen, as do crossings of the border. There was one crossing of the border the other evening, to the extent of only 20 metres. This type of thing has to be sorted out in a better fashion, but in general the handling of these matters by the Irish authorities is first rate. I have no grumbles about it.

We accept that the Government of the Republic must be acutely conscious of the fact of its territorial sovereignty, but is my right hon. Friend aware that the helpful and co-operative attitude that he just mentioned should soon have an effect on public attitudes in the North?

One aspect of the co-operation that I should particularly like to mention is concerned with explosives. There is no doubt that the incidence of the discovery of explosives this year was much higher than last year. That stems from the close co-operation between the Governments of the North and South. This co-operation has shown considerable results.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that another very real cause of friction between the Government of the Republic and our Government is the continuing clandestine discussions that our Government has with representatives of illegal organisations there?

The hon. Member keeps using the word "continuing". I have not noticed this, and both Governments know what they are doing.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons are currently unemployed in the Province; and what was the figure at the same time in 1975.

51,466 in May 1976 and 37,278 in May 1975.

The Minister will be conscious of the dismay and disappointment that we all feel at those staggeringly high figures. When will the Government's study of a new economic strategy for the Province be completed? How many new jobs will be created by the Northern Ireland Development Agency?

The study should be available before the Summer Recess. The Northern Ireland Development Agency scheme and other similar schemes will probably provide employment for about 1,700 people in amenity and environmental projects and work of a community nature.

Is my hon. Friend aware that members of my trade union who are working at the Harland and Wolff shipyard are very grateful for the aid which the Government has sent to them, and they are watching carefully the events in the House today? They are very concerned about the possible planning blight on the British shipbuilding industry which could arise out of today's decision in the House.

I am glad to learn from my hon. Friend that employees in Harland and Wolff are grateful for the assistance that we are giving. On a wider point, as a result of being in charge of the Department of Commerce for six weeks I have begun to feel that if there were no Government assistance to the Northern Ireland economy, Northern Ireland probably would not have an economy.

As a Minister in a Labour Government, is not the hon. Member ashamed of these figures, which are the worst unemployment levels since Northern Ireland was established? What does he intend to do to reduce them?

I am not pleased at having to announce the figures, and in that respect the hon. Gentleman is right The Government are studying the situation with a view to producing plans during the course of the summer, and of course all the assistance that is available to the creation of employment in the rest of the United Kingdom has been made available to Northern Ireland. The result of that is that about 3,500 jobs have been saved by the counter-redundancy training scheme and the temporary employment subsidy. The recruitment subsidy for school leavers has assured about 1,250 school leavers of jobs. Under the Government's most recent measures, £8 million is available to Northern Ireland, and this will be used over the next three years to provide over 1,000 new jobs and to train 1,500 people, mostly young people from school.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, how much public finance has been provided for recreational provision in the area covered by Craigavon Council.

In the five-year period from 1st April 1971 to 31st March 1976, Government grants totalling about £350,000 have been paid to the Craigavon Borough Council and its predecessors in respect of recreational facilities. This, with the council's contribution, represents an outlay of public funds of approximately £525,000.

Will my hon. Friend confirm the rough calculation that that represents about £1·25 millions? Is he satisfied that full use is being made of all the facilities created by these public funds? If not, will he make sure that a message goes to Craigavon and other places telling it that if it does not use these facilities to the full it will not receive any more public money.

I can confirm that my hon. Friend is about right in his figure. The provision and arrangement of recreational facilities are matters within the functions of each council. However, we should not forget that a great deal of Government finance goes towards these facilities and that the Government have a right to take an interest in their use. I therefore intend to pursue further with the council the provision of Government grants, and I have stressed to councils in Northern Ireland that they should maximise the revenue account in respect of these facilities.

Does the Minister accept that the administration and management of these recreational facilities are among the very few responsibilities left to councils in Northern Ireland? Does he also accept that how they use them is their responsibility, and that of the citizens of their boroughs?

I have stressed that, but Ministers cannot just sit back while £1·25 millions is put into local councils like these and have no say in what the money should be used for.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many houses the housing executive has sold to tenants in Mid-Ulster.

At 31st March 1976 the executive had sold 97 dwellings in this area.

Is the Minister aware that huge anomalies exist in the valuation of these properties? I know of two houses, joined together, which share half an acre of land, and they have been valued at £3,000. Not very far away there is——

Order. The hon. Member is seeking information, not giving it. He must ask a question.

Is the Minister aware that there is an anomaly in the valuations, because not far away is a house which was built 13 years later and which has half an acre of land to itself? Its value is put at £1,000 less than the other two houses. Will the Minister try to ensure that there is more equality and standardisation in the valuation of these properties, which people have bought more than 10 times over?

The valuation of the properties is done by the district valuer. One of the difficulties has been that although a valuation is arrived at for sitting tenants, when the empty cottages are put on the open market our reserve price is greatly exceeded.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will provide an itemised breakdown of the cost to the Government of all allocations of finance, including expenditure on defence, to Northern Ireland for the years 1973–74, 1974–75 and 1975–76, respectively.

Details of Government expenditure in Northern Ireland are contained in public expenditure White Papers, to which I would refer my hon. Friend.

I have searched through the public expenditure White Paper and the Defence Estimates, and I have been to the Library, but I have been unable to find the overall cost to this country of what is happening in Northern Ireland. Does my right hon. Friend accept that that is totally unsatisfactory, because the people on both sides of the water need to know what that cost is? Does he agree that the sum is bound to have tremendous political significance? Is it not bound to have an effect on people in Britain, who expect the two sides in Northern Ireland to come closer together in democratic efforts to make peace in view of this vast outflow of money to Northern Ireland.

I have a photostat copy from the White Paper Cmnd. 6393, pages 112 and 113, and all the information I have comes from that. About £1,500 million is spent in Northern Ireland every year, and of that 60 per cent. is raised in taxation in the Province. The rest, to use the parlance of the document, is a subvention from the United Kingdom Government. Any comparable part of the rest of the United Kingdom would throw up similar figures. I am able to produce those figures only because the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has his own accounts, because he operates a form of devolved administration. Those people who talk about independence should look at the figures very carefully, because their aims would damn Northen Ireland to a very much lower standard of living. Those people in Northern Ireland who say that they do not accept the will of the Queen in Parliament, although they call themselves Loyalists, would do well to look at the figures. It is right that we should treat Northern Ireland like the rest of the United Kingdom. It is a part of the United Kingdom, and that is the best way to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether the sums received or to be received from the EEC for regional purposes in Northern Ireland have been or will be offset by corresponding reductions in provision for those purposes from United Kingdom funds; and if he will make a statement.

The primary instrument for implementing EEC regional policy is the European Regional Development Fund. Contributions from the fund allow the Government to go ahead with a greater total of regional commitments than could be managed otherwise. Contributions earned by infrastructure projects in Northern Ireland are used to reduce the capital borrowings of the public bodies which have substantial infrastructure responsibilities. These contributions are not offset by any corresponding reduction in the Northern Ireland grant in aid to the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund. Contributions earned by industrial projects are retained by the Government in partial repayment for industrial assistance already provided.

In view of the scale of United Kingdom contributions to the EEC, is it not surprising that total net regional grants to the United Kingdom should be so small?

I do not think that that point has much relevance to the Question. The hon. Member is now talking about the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland receives a disproportionate amount of regional aid in both EEC and United Kingdom terms.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the review of the working of the Criminal Injuries (Compensation) Act 1968.

I have nothing further to add to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) on 28th April.

Is the Minister aware of very widespread anger in this country at the award of up to £20,000 to a convicted IRA man, when families of soldiers killed in Northern Ireland have been getting far less? For 12 months hon. Members on both sides of the House have agreed that this is an urgent matter, so why has it all taken so long?

It would be quite improper for me to comment on that case. I do not think that it furthers the hon. Gentleman's case to make such accusa- tions. Members of the security forces in Northern Ireland, and their dependants, have the benefit of Service pensions which specifically cover the risk of injury and death. Under the Act, these have to be taken fully into consideration. When a Service man dies in Northern Ireland as a result of criminal injury, the claim by his widow or dependants is dealt with on the same basis as are claims by widows and dependants of civilians. Any compensation award is for financial loss. I have figures that disprove some of the accusations made about this matter.

Will the Minister consider excluding from compensation those who have been involved in acts of terrorism?

That is a matter for the statute law and the courts in Northern Ireland. A review is taking place and my right hon. Friend has asked that the recommendations should be in his hands by the end of this month.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that compensation has been awarded to four children under the age of 2 years for nervous shock? How does one assess nervous shock in a child under the age of 2?

When one has been in Northern Ireland, one gets used to nervous shock. It is not for me to contemplate how the law arrives at decisions in these cases, but compensation has been given to young children in Northern Ireland on four occasions.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the police investigation into the incident in North Belfast on 12th April 1976 when it was alleged that two young Roman Catholic boys were attacked and set on fire.

I understand from the Chief Constable that on 13th April two boys aged 8 and 13 years were admitted to Mater Hospital Belfast suffering from bums to the face, hands and chest. The boys alleged that they had been attacked by a gang of youths in the Oldpark district and that petrol had been thrown over them and ignited. Police inquiries into the incident are continuing.

Does the hon. Gentleman share my hope that the news media will give at least as much prominence to the fact that it has been proved that there was no such outrage, which led to reports that created a deplorable impression throughout the country? Will he confirm that forensic reports have proved that no liquid was poured on these boys?

I cannot comment on the hon. Gentleman's second point, because this matter is in the hands of the RUC and investigations are continuing. If my hopes about the news media were borne out on ail occasions, the situation in Northern Ireland might be very different.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will give consideration to the setting up of a detailed research project into the psychiatric effects of terrorist activity in Northern Ireland: and if he will make a statement on such evidence as exists at present.

This is a subject that is closely monitored by the Northern Ireland Department of Health and Social Services, in conjuction with specialists in this field, and I am doubtful whether a detailed research project would provide practical benefit.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us appreciated the initiative by the Secretary of State in regard to the research project in the southern part of Ireland? Will he consult the Secretary of State for Health and Social Security to see whether it would be possible for some of the NHS budget to be diverted to the mental health sector? There is sufficient evidence to justify this.

We have our own DHSS in Northern Ireland. All the evidence is that terrorist activity has not affected the pattern of psychiatric illness. There has been a modest increase in the number of patients admitted to hospital, but the hospital population has tended to fall. There has been a significant decrease in depressive illnesses in Belfast and other riot-affected areas. The suicide rate has fallen by 50 per cent.

My hon. Friend is aware of my interest in this matter. Can he say to what extent young people in the Province have been psychologically affected and, in particular, how their educational progress has been affected by terrorism and civil disturbance?

I have much learned advice and opinion on this matter. The psychological effects of civil disturbance on children can be divided into short-term and long-term effects. In the former, children enjoy the excitement of the situation and relatively few become disturbed, because their anti-social behaviour is condoned within the framework of the community. In the latter, when a settlement is brought about, those with feelings of violence prejudice and bigotry will find it more difficult to adjust to society and will persist in anti-social behaviour, causing problems for police, educationists and numerous other social services. All that I have to add to that advice is "Amen".

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will consider the establishment of a specialist full-time anti-terrorist unit recruited principally from the ranks of the UDR and RUC.

The security forces, including the UDR and RUC, are already fully engaged in combating terrorism.

I acknowledge the success of the RUC, but is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are certain areas where that success has been limited? If he were to implement my suggestion, would it not divest the RUC of the paramilitary rôle that neither of us wishes it to have?

In rural areas, there is a problem. Terrorism shows itself in different ways. I believe that the Chief Constable and the GOC who directs military operations are adopting the right approach. They will ensure that the RUC does not become a para-military force.

We are glad to hear that the Chief Constable is looking at this matter. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the anti-terrorist unit that we envisage would be useful as a mobile force in the border zone?

The RUC has a mobile force in the border zone at the moment. It becomes highly dependent on the Army the nearer it gets to the border. The UDR is a part-time force. I visited it in the border area recently. Changes can be made, but they are matters for the director of military operations.

asked the Prime Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister of Italy.

I hope to meet the Italian Prime Minister at the next European Council in Brussels on 12th and 13th July.

Will the Prime Minister on that occasion raise with the Italian Prime Minister, and perhaps with other Common Market colleagues, the propriety of a Commissioner in the Community standing as a parliamentary candidate in the Italian elections? Now that we have evidence that a senior Commissioner, Signor Spinelli, is standing on the Communist ticket, perhaps the Prime Minister will initiate what his predecessor used to call a full, frank and searching inquiry to see whether there is any further Communist penetration of the Community by other Little Red Riding Hoods? This is very disturbing.

I understand that Commissioner Spinelli is standing as an Independent on the Communist Party list. It is not for me to reconcile these strange doctrines. He has withdrawn from all official duties in the Community for the moment. If elected he will resign, and there is some evidence that if he is not elected he will not wish to resume his functions. There has been no secret about Commissioner Spinelli. He was a member of the Communist Party many years ago, before he became a Commissioner. There is therefore no need for an inquiry to find out about secret Communists.

Will my right hon. Friend use his powers of persuasion to convince the incoming Italian Government that the best chances of technical success for the JET fusion project are at Culham, and that the Italians might do well to look for other research projects for their understandable worries about Ispra?

The project at Culham is one of the most advanced in Europe. It is one that I pressed for consistently when I was Foreign Secretary. I know there is a great Italian interest in the matter. It is a Community project and there are no Community projects of that character established in the United Kingdom. I think it would be a very worthwhile opportunity both for Europe and the United Kingdom, especially as we have one of the best teams in the world assembled at Culham for this very new and exciting venture.

When the Prime Minister meets the Italian Prime Minister will he ask him to investigate the racket under which fat cattle leave this country, with a slaughter premium paid on them as they go, are transported to Italy, where they are slaughtered and subsequently shipped to Denmark, with monetary compensation amounts being paid as they cross each border? How can the common agricultural policy operate properly when such rackets are going on?

I do not think I shall be discussing that with the Italian Prime Minister, but the point raised by the hon. Member is important. The CAP does not operate to the benefit of this country, and it involves a great deal of money being spent unnecessarily. It is our intention on all occasions—and certainly before the next agricultural price review, in the spring—to raise these matters at the highest level in order to get an agricultural system better fitted to the needs of the consumer, as well as giving producers decent returns.

To return to the supplementary question of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten), will the Prime Minister go further than he has been asked and take an initiative at the Heads of Government meeting to secure an agreement that once a Commissioner takes up his appointment he will remain in the appointment for the full agreed term, eschew party politics and not return for electoral purposes, or give notice of a return for electoral purposes, until his term, which he has accepted, is completed?

I think that there is something to consider here, but, as will be in the right hon. Gentleman's mind, this is not the first time that someone has given an indication that he wishes to return to politics in his own country before he finishes his term of office. I have thought of at least one recent occasion when perhaps it might have been rather convenient for that to be done, but I do not wish to particularise. On the general question, of course, we should consider what should be the position of Commissioners in these matters. On the whole, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that if they are appointed for a fixed term they should see out that term. If they wish to return to their national politics, they should do so after the end of the term.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that at least the Italian Communists have some regard for the employment prospects of their countrymen, in sharp contrast to the callous and irresponsible attitude to the jobs and livelihoods of those employed in shipbuilding in this country, as demonstrated by the hypocritical shower on the Opposition Benches, which overshadows even the Leader of the Opposition's suggestion, in the United States, that in order to cut public expenditure she would stop issuing kidney machines?

I think I shall have more important matters to discuss with the Italian Prime Minister than the machinations of the Opposition, but I hope it is being borne in on them that there are a great many jobs at stake today—[HON. MEMBERS: "Yours".] If Conservative Members think that I care about this job, it only shows the lengths and the depths to which they have sunk. I must say that it is an interesting hors-d'oeuvre to the nature of the debate that we are going to have, if this is to be the level on which it is to be conducted.

asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Binbrook.

I have at present no plans to do so.

is the Prime Minister aware that Binbrook lies at the heart of the Lincolnshire agricultural land and that many of Binbrook's farmers are very concerned about the present value of the green pound? Will he tell the House whether the Government intend to revalue the green pound, to bring it back into line with the pound sterling?

I am sure that Binbrook is a very salubrious and charming hamlet. I imagine that every day its inhabitants discuss nothing other than the green pound. On the whole, we feel it would be wrong to revalue the green pound at present, because with the increased price of commodities that is not within our control. It is everybody's responsibility to try to keep the rate of inflation down as far as we can.

Does my right hon. Friend readily agree that whatever the sufferings of the farmers from the devaluation of the green pound, members of the farming community, especially the Lincolnshire farmers, have never had such a bonanza as they have had from the price they have been getting for their potatoes over the past nine months?

Yes, I think that potatoes have done exceptionally well—[Interruption.] Unfortunately, I have no quota myself. But other commodities have not done so well. For the farming community generally, the spring has enabled the work to go ahead extremely well. There is now a shortage of rain, but the dairy industry is moving ahead. On the whole, I do not think that there is a bonanza, except in some commodities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman suggest to his right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) that Binbrook would be a very suitable place to put out to grass Paddy the labrador, whose official career is now presumably over, and who must be surprised and disappointed, as we all are, that he has not appeared in today's Honours List?

If my right hon. Friend cannot visit Binbrook, will he visit Newcastle upon Tyne and talk to the workers and management at Swan Hunter Shipbuilders Ltd.? Will he explain to them how he is going to deal with the problems that may be created this evening by the irresponsible exaggeration by Conservative Members of a genuine technical error and that may affect the livelihoods of the men and management in an industry which is now in the process of getting its fourth vesting day?

It is true that the shipbuilding industry faces the greatest crisis it has faced since the end of the war. That is true of the world situation, as I think Conservative Members know. Therefore, it is vitally important that we should get ahead as quickly as possible with the reorganisation of the industry, so as to save a great many jobs, although it will have to be faced that a lot of rationalisation is needed if the British shipbuilding industry is to be saved. No parliamentary successes by the Opposition will prevent that from happening.

The Prime Minister mentioned a moment ago the revaluation of the green pound, but there is another form of revaluation that is long overdue. Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the creation of an honour that honourable men can honourably accept?

asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Hounslow.

I have at present no plans to do so.

As Hounslow is one of the places that would have been affected by the Prime Minister's efforts to amend the Boundary Commission report in favour of the Labour Party a few years ago, would it not be a good place for the right hon. Gentleman to visit, so that he can explain to the people whether there are any limits to his willingness to alter the rules of the game to get the result that he wants?

The House will take a decision on the matters that are before it today. I am told that there is a majority of the House that is not composed of members of the Labour Government or of the Labour Party. There- fore, I assume it is the House that will reach its conclusions.

Will the Prime Minister allow a free vote this evening?

I have no doubt that every one of my hon. Friends will be in the Lobby in support of the Government.

If my right hon. Friend is in the Hounslow district—he can easily go through it on his way to Chequers—will he bear in mind that Southall is quite close by? Will he stop off and speak to the indigenous and Indian communities of Southall, and assure them that it will be no part of the Labour Government's policies now or in future to deny families their proper family rights, in spite of the worry about immigration and the necessity to control it?

I have always been in favour of controlling immigration. Indeed. I introduced systems to that effect. There is a difference between controlled entry and the abuses that are taking place, to which attention has been directed. I believe it is in the interests of the communities themselves—it is certainly the desire of many of their leaders—that abuses and evasion of the law should not be practised.

To return to the previous matter, on the basis of whose rule book will the decision tonight be taken—the Standing Orders of the House of Commons, as interpreted by Mr. Speaker, or the changing instructions of the Prime Minister?

It will be taken in the normal course by Members walking through the Lobbies as free Members of this House.

Will the Prime Minister therefore undertake to accept the result of tonight's vote and not have another vote the week after next?

It will depend what the vote is about—[Interruption.] I have plenty of time. Hon. Members can shout as long as they like. It will depend what the vote is about the week after next. It will depend on the form in which it is put. As far as today is concerned, the House will reach a conclusion and consequences will follow from that. We shall see the consequences when the vote has been declared.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In answer to two supplementary questions this afternoon, the Prime Minister remained obstinately in his seat and refused to answer. [Interruption.] The point of order which I wish to put to you arising out of this matter is whether, if this practice were to be extended, there is any point in hon. Members putting any supplementary questions to the Prime Minister at all.

The attitude of Ministers to Questions is for them, not for me.

May I add, Mr. Speaker, that I always endeavour to give courteous answers to questions, but I also reserve the right to remain in my seat if I do not think that a question is worthy of an answer.