asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next expects to meet the European Commission.

I have at present no plans to meet members of the European Commission.

I find it amazing to hear that the Secretary of State has no plans to meet the Commissioners. Does he not realise that at the present time debates are taking place concerning Scottish fishermen? It is totally outrageous that we are being presented with a 12-mile limit off the coast of Scotland when we ought to have at least a 100-mile limit. Does the right hon. Gentleman not realise, lastly, that he is a member of the last London Government to have any connection with Scotland—

Order. I realise that the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question was prepared before I made my appeal, but I hope that hon. Members will co-operate.

I think that the hon. Gentleman is, in fact, talking about meetings of the Council of Ministers and not meetings of the Commission. The Minister of State met one of the Commissioners, Mr. George Thomson, only last week.

I welcome the report from Brussels regarding the agreement over the question of 200 miles—I think we will hear more about that this afternoon—but will the Secretary of State confirm that what matters to Scottish fishermen now, when the 200-mile limit seems to be settled, is the limit that we have off the west coast of Scotland? Because of the importance of our Scottish herring industry, nothing less than a 50-mile limit will do justice to the Scottish fishermen.

The hon. Gentleman will know that there is a later Question on the Order Paper and also a Private Notice Question on the subject, but I take note of what he said.

Is the Secretary of State aware that I was in Brussels last week, and that it was clear that the Commission accepted 200 miles for countries in the EEC but is still suggesting 12 miles for Britain? That is quite unacceptable in Scotland. We require 50 miles at least.

With respect, I think that the right hon. Gentleman is confusing two things. There is now widespread acceptance of the 200-mile limit, and progress has been made on that. The other argument, to which we attach considerable importance, concerns the exclusive zones, and on that subject the Government have already made it clear that the Commission's original proposal for 12 miles is quite unacceptable.

Will the Secretary of State seek an early meeting with the Commission to raise the question of preferential access for Scottish coal in European Community markets? Unless we get preferential access we may have up to 1½ million tons surplus in Scotland from 1976 onwards. If we do not do something about this within the Community there may be an enormous employment problem in the Scottish coalfields.

There is a problem in the Scottish coalfields, but I do not think it is exclusively or even mainly to do with the Community.

Is there any reason why the Secretary of State should not go to Brussels to negotiate on behalf of the Scottish fishing industry? Does he not realise that such a public gesture by him would create confidence in the industry in Scotland?

If the hon. Gentleman will make a public gesture by offering me a pair I shall certainly consider that. On the general point, it is certainly my intention to participate in these discussions, as appropriate.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that fish have no relation to limits—they swim for 100 or 200 miles—and that it is essential for him to produce a policy that protects the areas in which the fish spawn? It has nothing to do with where the fish are caught. They are certainly caught within 25 miles of the Scottish coast, but the spawning areas are further away, and that is what the right hon. Gentleman should bend his attention to.

The hon. Member is making a number of points. On the general question of conservation, he will know that the Government have as one of their major aims the achievement of effective conservation policies which can be monitored to see that they are not broken by other States.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what was the size of the average class in Scottish secondary schools in session 1974–75; what was the average class size in secondary schools in Scotland and in the Strathclyde Region, respectively, in session 1975–76; and what he expects it to be at the beginning of the new school year in August 1976.

The average size of classes in education authority secondary schools in Scotland in September 1974 was 20. The corresponding figure for Scotland in September 1975 was 19·6 and for Strathclyde 20·7. The average class size in August 1976 cannot be estimated at this stage.

Is the Minister aware that we are bound to be disappointed that class sizes are not falling when we are spending many thousands of pounds trying to make people literate and numerate because of their disadvantages during this terrible shortage of teachers? As we now have an opportunity to correct that imbalance, will he do his utmost to see that the teachers now leaving the training colleges are employed in schools?

If the class sizes that I have just announced had existed when my hon. Friend and I were members of Glasgow City Council some years ago, we should have been very pleased. My hon. Friend has not got it quite right because we now have the best-ever teacher-pupil ratio.

Given the high level of educational deprivation in Strathclyde Region, particularly as it was outlined in the first annual report by the regional council, does the Minister not agree that this is an opportunity for us to use the unemployed teachers to compensate in the West of Scotland for those years of educational deprivation? Will he therefore give a guarantee that the rate support grant will be increased to enable local authorities to increase the numbers of teachers?

The hon. Lady is over-egging this pudding. I know the situation of teachers in Glasgow. As I said, we now have the best-ever teacher-pupil ratio.

Has the Minister received a copy of the report by the Scottish Association of Head Teachers, which shows that unless the Red Book standards are increased by 6 per cent. staffing in schools will fall below the optimum level, mainly at the expense of the least academic pupils? Surely that shows that there is still a place in our schools for the qualified teachers who have not yet been taken into posts.

I know that my right hon. Friend has not had an opportunity to study that document, but I do not think that we can accept all the comments made by that association.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated cost to Scottish housewives and farmers of implementing the EEC policy concerning skimmed milk; and if he will make representations to the Council of Ministers that it be rescinded.

Any increase in farm feed costs attributable to the EEC scheme for incorporation of skimmed milk powder cannot be separately estimated, but it is a minor element in recent price movements. It has had no effect on retail food prices. The scheme is part of the continuing Community effort to achieve a better balance between production and utilisation in the milk sector.

I regret to say that I find that reply rather unsatisfactory. Does the Minister regard a figure of between £7 and £10 a tonne as an insignificant amount? Does he appreciate that egg producers have to pay this amount, which often makes their egg-producing in Scotland unprofitable? Does he appreciate that if he could persuade our old allies, the French, to drink milk instead of wine, the Scots would not have to feed their hens on it?

The hon. and learned Gentleman gets carried away with his own eloquence. Since he wrote to me a month ago, his estimate of the increase has gone up from £4·50 a tonne to, as he just said, between £7 and £10 a tonne. In fact, the figure is £1·50, so he is wrong again, as he usually is.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite what may or may not have happened in the present situation, it is the proposals for the future that are giving us cause for anxiety—levies on milk products, on milk itself, and on protein imports? Above all, in operating this, will he fight to preserve the two milk marketing boards in Scotland?

Yes, I can give an assurance about the milk marketing boards. Our position has been clearly stated. We have always said that we want to ensure a policy that is designed to concentrate production in those areas of the EEC, such as the United Kingdom, which are best suited to milk production. As my hon. Friend will know, the decisions on what happens after October have been postponed. There should be decisions in September.

Is the Minister aware that the scheme is simply not being effective in reducing milk powder stocks? What guarantees has he had that the scheme will end in October?

As I have said, the current scheme is due to end in October—[Interruption.] I am being asked a factual question. What I am saying is that this obviously depends on the level of production, which has been seriously affected by drought in some parts of this country and in Europe. What will take the place of the scheme after October will depend on various factors.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he remains satisfied that the bus services in rural areas of Scotland are satisfactory and adequate for the needs of those not possessing or allowed to drive motor cars.

It is for the regional and islands councils to see that bus services in their areas are adequate. Government support is made available through rate support grant.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a real difficulty in subsidising railway services, whose cost falls entirely on the Exchequer, as opposed to subsidising bus fares, whose cost is shared by the local authority, and that this has the effect of subsidising city commuters rather than country dwellers? Does he think that that is an equitable arrangement?

I do not think that that is an accurate presentation of the picture. In our view, adequate resources were made available within the rate support grant settlements in the last few years to meet the requirements of the bus operators for subsidies on these uneconomic routes. It is entirely a matter for the regional and islands councils to decide how much revenue they should spend on these facilities. That provision was embodied in the 1973 Local Government Act.

Has the Minister any plans for moving towards standardisation, throughout Scotland, of the concessionary fares schemes for pensioners?

That also is a matter for the local authorities. Certainly we have no plans to introduce standardised concessionary fares throughout Scotland. I well remember one of the fights in which I was involved in an attempt to get a local authority in my constituency to grant concessionary fares. Two other local authorities were giving concessions, but one was not. It has always been a question for local authorities and will continue to be so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many rural communities are isolated because the provisions of the 1968 Transport Act have not been implemented under which rail services which were cut off were supposed to be replaced by bus services? Will he use his influence to see that the provisions of the Labour Party manifestos are carried out, and to seek an integrated transport service in Scotland?

I am always impressed by simple solutions to complex problems, and there is no doubt that rural transport, in particular, is a very complex problem. I notice that no one suggests that we should gear transport to passenger demand. That is one of the greatest difficulties in deciding the level of rural transport, whether it be bus or train.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now transfer responsibility for social work from regional authorities to district councils; and if he will make a statement.

No, Sir.

Does the Minister accept that the work of social work departments and housing authorities is indivisible and that many anomalies are creeping in? Does he agree that one of the first tasks of a Scottish Assembly will be to disband regional authorities? The sooner he gets on with the job the better.

There are problems of liaison between regional and district authorities, but at local level most of the problems can be adequately solved.

Notwithstanding what has been said about the indivisibility of social work and housing, does my right hon. Friend have any evidence that social work departments are falling down on the job?

I would not put it like that. The Morris Committee's report recommended that housing the homeless should be a function of housing authorities rather than social work authorities, and this is a problem in many areas. I do not accept the suggestion made by my hon. Friend in the way he puts it.

In the light of the forthcoming Scottish Assembly, would it not be of assistance to consider fairly quickly whether the two tiers of local authority in Scotland should be replaced by one-tier all-purpose authorities?

We have made our position clear on this matter on numerous occasions. There is no question of changing the present local authority structure before the Assembly is established. Matters of that sort will thereafter be for the Assembly. It will be for the Assembly to decide whether it wants to do anything about this matter, and, if so, what.

Does the Secretary of State accept that social work departments provide many vital services, such as the home help service for the old and disabled? At a time of economic stringency such as we are facing, is it not imperative to give these services priority in public expenditure rather than to abolish pay beds in Scotland or to introduce nationalisation proposals which are totally irrelevant to the welfare of the Scottish people?

That is very wide of the Question. As the hon. Gentleman will see when he gets further information about public expenditure, the expenditure of social work departments over recent years has gone up much more rapidly than has local authority expenditure generally.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations have been made to him about the availability of jobs for school leavers.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the extent of unemployment in Scotland as far as school leavers are concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is his latest assessment of the economic situation in Scotland, with particular reference to youth employment prospects.

The July unemployment figures announced yesterday include some 22,700 school leavers. The various measures announced by the Government to alleviate unemployment are particularly aimed at youth unemployment.

In view of the disgraceful information that that answer has disclosed, does the Minister agree that the Job Creation Programme and the other economic measures that the Government have introduced have made very little impact on unemployment, particularly among young people? Does he further agree that some further massive Government effort is needed? Does he accept that, tied as Scotland is to the declining economy of the United Kingdom, unemployment must be the fate of many Scottish school leavers?

I am not happy with the current level of unemployment among young people, or any other group of poeple, but the hon. Gentleman should recognise that the school leaver recruit- ment subsidy scheme has created a considerable number of jobs, as has the Job Creation Programme. Taking those measures with the various other measures that the Government have introduced over the past year, it will be seen that in the present economic circumstances we are doing everything we can to sort out a difficult problem.

As this serious problem—which arises throughout Europe and is not just a Scottish problem—is likely to be with us for a considerable time, will the Government seriously consider a scheme of voluntary civilian national service within the social services? Would not that be better than paying unemployment and social security benefit and would it not additionally preserve the personal dignity of each person involved?

The Government are at all times willing to listen to and examine any schemes that are put forward, but I genuinely believe that we have to get to the root cause of the problem. As my hon. Friend properly says, the problem is not peculiar to the United Kingdom; it is world-wide. It will be seen that with the regional development incentives, the accelerated programmes and all the other measures, we are making a contribution.

What new measures does the Minister propose to introduce to reduce the frightening level of unemployment in Scotland?

As I say, there is the school leaver recruitment scheme, the Job Creation Programme, accelerated investment programmes and industry schemes. These schemes take time, but they are working for the people of Scotland. To suggest that Scotland would do any better on its own is absolute nonsense.

The jobs that have been created by the Job Creation Programme and other measures are welcome, but does not my hon. Friend agree that they are not a permanent solution to the problem? Will he consider an extension of the provisions of additional training places so that when the upturn in the economy occurs and the world has slipped away from the trade recession, which is the cause of the present crisis, young people with the necessary skills will be available to meet the rising demands from all over the world?

During the last two and a half years, we have made considerable progress in training many young people, especially in the new technologies. The Government are sorting out inflation problems and issues of that kind, and tackling the fundamental problem of creating jobs in the newer industries, which will be to the benefit of young people.

Is it not disgraceful that on this vital issue affecting Scotland the Secretary of State should shelter behind an answer of his Minister of State? Is the Secretary of State not ashamed that the unemployment figure among school leavers is nearly three times higher than it has been under any previous Government? Have not the Labour Government been in power for two and a half years? There can be no alibis. The Labour Party's policies are bankrupt. Will the Minister of State recommend his right hon. Friend to get out?

I am sure that that will look very good in the Press tomorrow—

Treat it seriously.

Does the hon. Gentleman want an answer? He should not make declarations of that kind. Not many days ago my right hon. Friend answered a debate on this issue very effectively from this Box. He is hiding behind no one.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next intends to meet the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Following my meeting with the convention on 9th July I look forward to further meetings to discuss financial matters in November. I am, of course, happy to meet the convention at any time, and my Departments are in regular touch with the convention's representatives.

What is the Secretary of State's policy on local government expenditure? How can he come to Dumfries and Galloway and criticise the region for not spending sufficient when it is already barely within its budget? How does he expect local government to reduce services without increasing unemployment? Does he realise that everyone in Scotland is saying "Come back, Willie. You made an awful mess of it, but it is a jolly sight worse now"?

For the current year, I have made it absolutely clear to the local authorities that I wish them to exercise the utmost restraint and to get as near as possible to a saving of £47 million, which is the difference between the figure on which rate support grant was based and the figure for which they have budgeted this year. I had a constructive meeting with the local authorities on 9th July on that matter.

At the meeting of 9th July, what exactly did Sir George Sharp say in the context of the cuts and the financial priorities that should be given to an Assembly?

I cannot remember off-hand—

I know exactly what he said.

Then I do not know why my hon. Friend is asking me.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the Secretary of State's thoroughly evasive reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the economic outlook in Scotland.

While the figures for total unemployment announced yesterday show a substantial increase, much of this is due to the registration of summer school leavers. Employment prospects for the rest of this year should be considerably enhanced by the growth in output and exports nationally. Prospects beyond that depend greatly on the continued success of the Government's policies to reduce the rate of inflation and to maintain economic recovery.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his lack of leadership and ideas in the current unemployment disaster is gaining him the reputation of being the most useless, idle and complacent Secretary of State in Scotland's history? Why does he not make way for someone who can speak and fight for Scotland and get results?

The hon. Gentleman speaks with so many voices and rides so many horses at the same time that he is like a one-man Derby. The unemployment figures are extremely serious, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment said yesterday that the Government are considering further measures, with particular reference to the young unemployed.

Despite all the peripheral measures, such as job creation, is it not part of deliberate Government policy to create high unemployment so as to discipline the working classes? Did not the Labour Government come to power in 1974 with a pledge to create full employment? Is my right hon. Friend aware that if the Government continue to create and use unemployment he will deservedly earn the reputation of being a member of the first Tory Labour Government in history?

That is an absolutely monstrous suggestion for the hon. Member to make. It is untrue to say that the Government are using unemployment as an instrument of policy. No one is more anxious than the Government to reduce the unemployment figures as rapidly as possible. We have taken a number of measures, such as the subsidy to school leavers, the temporary employment subsidy and the job creation programme, which have already saved about 23,000 jobs in Scotland. As I have said, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment hopes to make a further statement shortly about further measures.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Secretary of State for Employment, in reply to me yesterday, indicated that he would be making an announcement shortly? Will he tell us what representations the Scottish Office has made to the Department of Employment for specific measures to deal with the appalling condition of Scottish unemployment?

I can tell the House that I have been closely involved in all the discussions that have taken place regarding further measures.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that unemployment in Scotland, England and Wales offers the same grim prospect? Does he agree that Socialist solutions are now needed? Does he accept that they should include resisting blackmail from international bankers who want to cut public expenditure? Does he agree that cutting public expenditure will increase and not decrease unemployment? Will he assure the House that he will resist this blackmail, as to resist it is the only way out?

I agree that whether unemployment occurs in Scotland, England or Wales, it is an equally serious problem. There is a history of long-term unemployment in various parts of Scotland that is especially serious. It is true, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, that any cuts in public expenditure are likely to have a short-term effect on reducing employment, hut it is equally true that unless we get our economic policy right the longer-term prospects for employment will be very bad.

is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has now secured his reputation as the Secretary of State who has presided over the highest level of unemployment since the 1930s? What does he now think of the former Prime Minister's assurance, in the October election, that he saw no reason for unemployment to increase any further?

What the House and the hon. Gentleman must keep in mind in the present situation is the international background. Unemployment prospects are not merely a matter for the United Kingdom or for Scotland; similar problems are being faced by all the industrialised nations. However, unless we get inflation and the economy generally under control, the longer-term prospects for employment are not good. Therefore, we must principally and primarily direct our attention towards the underlying economic problems.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will legislate to control the use of calculators in public examinations in Scottish schools.

No, Sir. As far as the Scottish Certificate of Education examinations are concerned, it is for the Scottish Certificate of Education Examination Board to decide the extent to which calculators may be used.

In view of the great and increasing concern of many parents about the permissive use of calculators, which, in the words of the Scottish Examination Board,

"undoubtedly gives some significance to the results"

I take the right hon. Lady's point. The board has the matter under constant review. I am concerned that there should be any question of advantage being given to some children over others. I shall bear in mind the right hon. Lady's point.

If we gave some of these calculators to the Tories and the SNP, is it possible that just for once they might get their sums right?

Having heard the speech of the SNP representative last week on the Estimates, I think it might be worth while for the Labour Party to buy a few calculators for our opponents.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many teachers think that the use of calculators in examinations has been bad for education and unfair? Will he ask the board to look at the matter again?

I have indicated that the board has the matter under constant review. I have quite strong views on this matter as I happen to be the parent of a youngster who is now going through examinations. I think that calculators can take a lot of the drudgery out of the work, but we want to ensure that there is no disadvantage.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that two of the sums that the SNP has got right is that family income in Scotland is more than 9 per cent. lower than in England and that the cost of living is more than 9 per cent. higher? In view of those figures, will the hon. Gentleman give us a categorical assurance that the public expenditure cuts that are coming will not be applied in Scotland?

I think that proves the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) that we need a calculator for the hon. Gentleman.

If the board is to scrap the use of calculators, will it give one of the surplus calculators to the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan)? The hon. Gentleman will need one soon to work out whether he will save his deposit at the next election.

If I were the hon. Gentleman, I should not be making any comments about anyone losing his seat.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is aware of the number of redundancies due at RDL North Sea Ltd., Methil, in the next few months; and what steps he intends to take to preserve employment prospects in this community.

Yes, Sir. My hon. Friend will be aware of the various measures that the Government have taken to ease the unemployment situation in Scotland as a whole, and these will bring benefits to areas like Methil. The full range of Government financial assistance for industry and employment is available in Fife and my officials are mindful of the need to encourage industrial development there.

Is the Minister aware that Methil already has a high rate of unemployment, has suffered tremendously as a result of the Michael pit disaster, and if RDL should close will suffer once again? Is he further aware that RDL has diversified successfully, with a first-class labour force, and is busier than ever, but that once immediate orders are finished, and unless there is a further platform order, grave redundancies will occur? Therefore, will he press his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy to use every possible avenue to press the oil companies to place platform orders much sooner than is at present anticipated?

With my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Energy, I met my hon. Friend and other Fife Members of Parliament to talk about this matter. It was clear from that meeting that my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Energy, is making every effort, as did his predecessor, to find orders for platforms.

Does the Minister recall the advice of the former Secretary of Sate for Scotland—the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross)—that if the unemployment figure in Scotland exceeded 100,000 the Secretary of State should resign? As the figure has now reached 160,000, does the present Secretary of State think that that was good or bad advice?

I do not see what that supplementary question has to do with the subject of RDL at Methil.

Does my hon. Friend agree that for purely technological reasons an order for a production platform is fairly remote? In those circumstances, will he encourage the firm to see the Minister—this has not yet happened, so far as I know—to consider the prospect of increased diversification of Norh Sea orders in inland yards?

I shall pass my hon. Friend's comments to the Department of Energy. Later this week I am meeting my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) and others to talk about the problem of unemployment in Fife—a subject that is of great concern to us all.

Will the Minister examine the problem of unemployment in small Scottish communities? Is he aware that in the borough of Arbroath there is an unemployment rate of 9·8 per cent.? What chance do school leavers or anybody else have when faced with high unemployment on the whole of Tayside? When will something be done about the situation?

I thought that the Question was confined to the situation Methil.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will next meet the Scottish office of the Housing Corporation.

My right hon. Friend would be happy to do so on a suitable occasion, but no proposal is in prospect at present.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is the view of the Government that associations sponsored by the Housing Corporation should have community links? Will he impress on the corporation the view that the management committees of such associations should represent the areas in which they are situated, and that requests from established community organisations for recognition as housing associations should receive a sympathetic response?

In answer to the first part of the supplementary question, on the matter of co-operation by the Housing Corporation with district councils, I cannot anticipate what the political persuasions may be. I am happy to think that the talks undertaken by my hon. Friend with the Housing Corporation have led to a satisfactory conclusion.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will now make a statement about the report on the future of List D schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the implementation of the Social Work (Scotland) Act with reference to List D schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the future responsibility for administering List D schools.

I have nothing to add at present to the reply given on 7th July to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook).

Since it is now nearly two years since the Mitchell Report recommended that List D schools should be administered by regional educational authorities, is it not high time that the Government made a statement about their future? Does he not agree that it would never solve the problems of crime or the problems of education to herd all the delinquents into concentration camps and use the unemployed teachers to flog them with birches, under the leadership of the gauleiter from Cathcart?

I agree with the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I am not yet in a position to make a statement on the earlier part of his remarks, but I hope to do so soon.

Will the Secretary of State use this opportunity to repudiate the astonishing statement by the Minister of State, Scottish Office, who, in the Scottish Grand Committee on 13th July, said that even if the money were available he did not think that it should be used for new List D schools? Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the Scottish Office has not yet given permission for grant to be given under Section 72 of the Children Act 1975 to allow local authorities to produce such schools in Scotland, where they are desperately needed?

The hon. Gentleman has his facts wrong on the last part of his supplementary question. On the question of List D schools generally, we have, proportionately, a larger number of places in Scotland than can be found in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Notwithstanding the difficulty about List D schools, can my right hon. Friend arrive at a speedy decision, so that there may be a proper discussion about the future of List D schools in relation to those who may need them, as well as examining the reasons for using such schools for teaching people in the community, which is the best place in which children can be looked after?

One must examine List D schools as only a part of the provision available to children's panels. I have not yet been able to make a decision on the first point mentioned by my hon. Friend. This matter has been pending for a considerable time. I appreciate that there is concern among local autho- rities and others at the delay in making an announcement.

Does the Minister agree that children's panels have now become a dangerous farce and that it is absurd that no sentence can be awarded between sending offenders to List D schools and giving them a totally ineffective police warning? Should there not be powers to fine offenders heavily, if necessary, to make parents pay in order to induce some sense of family responsibility, and to put offenders on to community work?

The hon. Gentleman uses terminology that went out with the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. They are not all offenders. Many children who appear before the children's panels have not been involved in any kind of offence. The hon. Gentleman is completely inaccurate in his reference to the methods available to children's panels, since those methods are as wide as those that were available previously to the juvenile courts. Incidentally, when that Act went through this House it was supported by all parties, including the Conservative Party.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the latest situation in the fishing industry.

I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend said in answer to Question No. 1 today, or to what I said 10 days ago in the Scottish Grand Committee. The hon. Member should await the statement to be made in reply to the Private Notice Question this afternoon.

Is the Minister aware that that was the most shamefully empty answer that has been heard in the House for a long time? Is he further aware that, despite a welcome rise in earnings, cost have also risen so that the average vessel in the Scottish fleet will lose as much as £25,000 again this year, and the industry cannot go on losing those amounts of money for very much longer? Is he also aware that yesterday's totally indecisive meeting at Brussels has been greeted with deep dismay by the fishing industry, and that nothing less than a 50-mile limit by October will do?

The hon. Gentleman recently said that one of my answers was the worst he had ever heard. Judging by what he said today, I am improving. As for the financial losses suffered by the Scottish Trawlers Federation, my officials met the federation last Thursday. We are giving the matter detailed consideration and we hope to inform the federation of our decision at an early date.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Tory Party is guilty of the grossest hypocrisy, because the Tory Government sold us out completely, in fishing policy terms, by putting us into the Common Market without examining questions of protection or future markets? Secondly, is he aware that the proposals which are at present being discussed in Brussels will be totally unacceptable to the Scottish fishing industry, and that a fight must be put up for a 50-mile limit?

I agree with the first part of my hon. Friend's remarks, but he does no service to the Government or the fishing industry if he does not make equally clear that even with a 50-mile exclusive limit our industry would not catch the amount of fish that it now catches. Therefore, it is not simply a straightforward matter of assuming that if we go for a 50-mile limit all our problems will be solved.

Does the Minister accept that both the Labour and Conservative Parties have sold out the interests of the inshore fishermen? If there is any settlement on the lines of the map published in the Scotsman 10 days ago, it will be regarded by Scottish fishermen as the grossest betrayal.

That might be all right for the Stornoway Gazette, but I replied to this question 10 days ago.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what evidence he has that the standard of education in Scottish schools has improved in recent years.

The evidence is a steady increase in the numbers of school leavers with SCE qualifications and in the numbers of young people entering higher education, improved staffing and better school buildings and the reports of Her Majesty's inspectors.

Is the Minister aware that he has not answered the question about standards? Published evidence in England has shown that standards are falling seriously. Has he any reason to believe—leaving aside the granting of certificates, which have proved to be irrelevant in England—that there is any evidence to show that the situation in Scotland is any better or even any different from that in England?

I am not responsible for what happens in England and Wales, but I do not necessarily accept some of the criticisms made by the hon. Member about what is happening there. If he has any evidence of deteriorating standards in Scotland he should let me know. I cannot understand why he seems to be dismayed that we are keeping up and improving the standards of Scottish education.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will withdraw all subsidies from the Caledonian MacBrayne ferry service to Islay.

No, Sir.

What is the point of spending £500,000 of taxpayers' money to subsidise a service that is not necessary when private firms are operating an efficient service to Islay without having to employ taxpayers' money?

If we were to withdraw the service—[Interruption.]—yes, that is what withdrawing the subsidy would amount to—it would mean an end to a service that many people regard as essential. When the Conservatives were in office they thought it right to continue the subsidy.

Does the Minister agree that it is rather odd that the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Fairgrieve) should raise this question? I am sure that he has never travelled by Western Ferries to Islay. He has not even cast his eye upon Early-Day Motion No. 529, which expresses the view that the best system possible would be to give both Western Ferries and Caledonian MacBrayne a subsidy for operating on this route.

It comes very odd from the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) to suggest that hon. Members should not interfere in other Members' constituencies. We have experienced SNP Members wandering all over Lanarkshire interfering in other constituencies. I should have thought that their best course in this case was to keep their mouths shut.

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Fairgrieve) has constituents who ship a lot of cattle on this very important service, and therefore the subject is of interest to him. Does the Minister agree that at a time when we are having cuts in essential services it is monstrous for the Government deliberately to discriminate against a private enterprise firm which can do the job better and cheaper?

I am not responsible for the fact that Western Ferries chose to compete with Caledonian MacBrayne.

asked the Lord Advocate if he is aware of the practice of certain accused persons of giving their address as care of the court concerned; and if he will make a statement.

I am aware of the practice, which has been in existence for a very long time. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) raised this point in correspondence earlier this year, and since then my officials have been collecting information with a view to arranging meetings with interested parties. The Committee on Criminal Procedure, under the chairmanship of Lord Thomson, recommended major changes in relation to the release of accused persons, and this is also being considered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and myself.

Has there been any increase in this practice, and does it worry the Lord Advocate at all?

To my knowledge there has been no increase in the practice. There are certain aspects of the practice that do worry me. For example, it does not guarantee that the accused person who is cited care of the sheriff clerk's office will get a copy of the indictment when it is served there. There are certain advantages in the practice, but this is one of the disadvantages, which I wish to clear up.

Do any of these cases involve the National Front, which is circulating a most scandalous piece of racialist literature in Edinburgh at the moment?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman's party condemns the activities of this body as much as mine does. The leaflet that is being distributed in my constituency was issued by the Scottish Front, which I assume is a variation of the National Front. I have had that leaflet before my office to consider whether criminal prosecutions may arise from its distribution. Having considered the matter very carefully, I have taken advice that no basis exists for criminal prosecution in regard to the distribution of the leaflet.

Will the Lord Advocate tell us the advantages of this method?

The advantage of citation care of the sheriff clerk's office is that the prosecution knows with certainty where an indictment may be served. From the point of view of the accused, when he is legally represented—as he often is—the solicitor knows where to get a copy of the indictment at the earliest possible date. He then has the responsibility of making sure that the accused knows about it and receives a copy. In cases where the accused does not wish his address to to be known, this device can be used.

asked the Lord Advocate when he expects charges to be brought against any person for the murder of Mrs. Rachel Ross, for which Patrick Connolly Meehan was wrongly convicted; what progress he has made with his inquiries into the circumstances in which he was wrongly convicted; and when he expects any charges to be brought relative thereto.

A thorough investigation is taking place. It has not been completed, but already considerable new evidence has come to light. In these circumstances I regret that I cannot at present answer the Question further.

Does the Lord Advocate appreciate that I do not want to rush him into an early prosecution of any person in connection with this case? Nevertheless, there having been an admission that the conviction of a person on the evidence prepared by the police was wrong, and there having been a confession in public by a man who claims to have done it, it is important that this matter should not be allowed to go to sleep.

The hon. and learned Gentleman will understand if I do not go beyond my statement.

Will the Lord Advocate publish the report of the inquiry he has carried out on this matter?

No, Sir. It would not be appropriate for the Lord Advocate, who is also the Public Prosecutor, to publish the report he has received. The question of any further inquiry is a matter that must be resolved after any prosecution may have been dealt with.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an indication of the likely time scale of the end of the inquiry? There is a feeling among many of us who are familiar with criminal processes in Scotland that the Crown Office would like to put the matter to sleep. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman in touch with the Crown Agent, and will he speak to him about the time scale?

I repudiate the suggestion that this matter is being treated in a dilatory manner by the Crown Office. It is being pursued with the utmost vigour. Hon. Members must appreciate that this is a very difficult matter which must be investigated thoroughly.

Will the Lord Advocate tell us whether the recent death of Mr. Abraham Ross, husband of the murdered woman, will prejudice the inquiry?

I hope that it will not prejudice the inquiry. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the death of this gentleman is an unfortunate circumstance. Every effort was made to obtain a deposition from him before he died. As soon as we knew that Mr. Ross was in danger of dying, the procurator fiscal made arrangements to have the sheriff and the sheriff clerk in attendance at the hospital to take a dying deposition. They went to the hospital on the day Mr. Ross died, but it became clear that he could not make a statement. Arrangements were made for them to return in the evening, but by that time Mr. Ross had died.

asked the Lord Advocate if he will refer to the Working Party of the Scottish Law Commission, under Lord Hunter, examining the Law of Diligence and Debt Collection, the problem of the separation of functions between a messenger-at-arms to the High Court, the Macer to the Lord Lyon King of Arms, and Sheriff-Officer responsible for debt collection.

asked the Lord Advocate whether he will ask the Scottish Law Commission to report on the legal implication of the functions of Messenger-at-Arms to the High Court, Macer to the Lord Lyon King of Arms and Sheriff-Officer responsible for debt collection.

I understand from the Scottish Law Commission that it is considering this question in the course of its current examination of the law and practice of diligence.

Is the Lord Advocate aware that many hon. Members are worried about the crude nature of this kind of debt collecting? When will the working party report?

I cannot give a definite date for the report of the working party, but in relation to the question of the practice of Messengers-at-Arms and sheriff officers taking part in other related activities, the judicial decisions in question are very clear. There is no reason to suppose that the firms that carry out this work are not complying with the law.

Why is Thomas Gray allowed to operate as a sheriff officer and also as a private debt collector? This pillar of the Scottish legal establishment, who has an office in Stirling, is allowed to hound ordinary working people in my constituency just because they fall behind in their hire-purchase payments. It is even more disgraceful that both his brother and his partner are members of the Law Commission's working party, which was set up in 1970 and is supposed to investigate this sort of disgraceful business.

I entirely dissociate myself from the general remarks that my hon. Friend has made on this matter. I have no reason to suppose that the firms that carry out the work in this area do not comply strictly with the requirements of the law. My hon. Friend must appreciate that the task of debt collecting is inevitably unpopular. One will get no votes by collecting debts.