asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the projected change in total expenditure on health care in Wales in the period 1976 to 1980.

From £224·9 million in 1976–77 to £237·3 million in 1979–80, the latest year for which projections have been made.

I am grateful for that reply. Can the Minister confirm that this figure represents an increase of 4·6 per cent. while the comparable figure in the consultative document for England indicates a rise of 5 per cent., despite the fact that the standardised mortality ratio in Wales is higher than in England and Wales and the discharge rates are 100 per 10,000 of the population higher in Wales than in England?

The Welsh figure shows a growth rate of 4·83 per cent. compared with 4·2 per cent. for Great Britain, and the per capita increase will be about 1½ per cent. higher in Wales than in England. Given the nature of our problems and economic circumstances, the Government have done all they could for Wales.

Against the background of last week's public expenditure proposals, can my hon. Friend give an assurance that work on the new general hospital at Bangor will go ahead?

Yes, I can give that assurance. This £15 million project for which my right hon. Friend has struggled for so many years will go ahead and the signs are that it will keep to the timetable.

Is the Minister aware that, although the NHS and the hospital services in Wales could do with more money, as they could elsewhere in the United Kingdom, the budgeting method means that there is extravagant and wasteful expenditure at the end of every financial period with money being spent suddenly, and perhaps without a great deal of thought, on things like television when, with greater care, it could be devoted to far better purposes?

I should like to have any details that the hon. Gentleman may have in mind. I should always say "Yes" to more money for hospitals, and the area health authorities are doing their utmost for Wales despite the problems that they inherited and are facing.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) and the Government would have a better sense of priorities if they attempted to show their support for the health service in Wales instead of squandering millions of pounds in acquiring the Temple of Peace, erecting a bureaucracy and creating an apparatus which the people of Wales do not want? Will my hon. Friend suggest to the hon. Member for Merioneth that he needs to discover his priorities and choose between real social needs or an Assembly for which the people of Wales have no desire?

I am sure that the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) knows his priorities, just as I know the priorities of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) in no uncertain fashion. I take this opportunity to reiterate my faith in the policies that the Government have put forward on devolution and for the National Health Service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the formula which governs the rate support grant for local authorities as it affects Wales.

The basis of this formula is provided by the Local Government Act 1974. In 1976–77 it resulted in a grant to Welsh local authorities of about 7½ per cent. of the total to be distributed in England and Wales. The Welsh proportion of the England and Wales population is 5·6 per cent.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware how much some local authorities in Wales, including Dyfed, suffered last year from the reform of the formula in favour of big conurbations? Has not the time come for the Government to consider settling a Welsh grant separately from that for England, in consultation with Welsh local authorities, which increasingly want to reorganise in a separate body?

I am not sure that Welsh local authorities would all like the hon. Gentleman's proposition. Welsh local government has done rather well in the course of my negotiations. Powys gets 80 per cent. of its expenditure through the rate support grant and Dyfed, Clwyd and Gwyned each get about 70 per cent., which is higher than the national average.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that those of us who support the idea of a local income tax believe that some form of central Government support will still be needed because there will be poorer areas under any system?

My hon. Friend has raised the issue of local income tax which was canvassed in the Layfield Report. He will have to wait until the Government have carried out their consultations with local authorities and then reached a decision.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman satisfied that the formula is working satisfactorily in the case of retirement areas such as mine, where there is a high proportion of retired people for whom additional services have to be provided?

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, the formula is very complicated. It is always capable of improvement, but when improvements were suggested last year as regards the sparsity and super-sparsity factor it was discovered by those canvassing it, particularly from the hon. Member's area, that in the end it did not necessarily work to their advantage. Therefore, I would be the first to welcome any ideas that the hon. Gentleman has for improvements if they prove in the end to be of advantage to these areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest estimate of the percentage of junior doctors on the staff of Welsh hospitals coming from overseas.

53 per cent. of junior doctors on the staff of Welsh hospitals at 30th September 1975 were born elsewhere than in the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, were it not for the services of these overseas doctors, services in Welsh hospitals would be at a critical stage? Is he further aware that a large number of students, especially sixth-form students, desire to qualify as doctors but are unable to gain admission to medical schools? Therefore, when the opportunity arises, will he give priority to the establishment of a second medical school in Wales to be located at Swansea, where excellent university and hospital facilities are avaliable?

I do not underestimate the valuable contribution of doctors from overseas to the staffing of the National Health Service in Wales. I also recognise the close interest that my hon. Friend takes as Chairman of the Council of University College, Swansea, which may have some bearing on his wanting a new health school at Swansea. Although I recognise his close interest in the possible location of a second school at Swansea, I can make no forecasts, but the present target of 4,100 entrants per year to medical schools by 1980 took into account a possible reduction in the flow of doctors from overseas.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that, with over half the junior doctors in Welsh hospitals being from overseas—from areas many of which are grossly under-doctored—we in Wales and in the United Kingdom as a whole should be recruiting far more medical students, wherever they are to be trained? Is there not a pressing case for this from the world point of view and from our own?

Given the present constraints on public expenditure which the Government face, and given part of the answer that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Davies) about the likely requirements for doctors by 1980, all I can say at this stage is that I can make no forecast. However, the second school, if ever there should be one, may be at Swansea.

While endorsing the views of the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Davies), may I ask whether my hon. Friend is aware that the figure he gave of 53 per cent. is probably the best rebuttal of those who, even in Wales, wish, by a mixture of parochialism and prejudice, to generate racial hatred in our community?

I fully understand my hon. Friend's strong feelings. I do not underestimate the valuable contribution made by doctors from overseas to the staffing of our hospitals. As for figures, the figure for all doctors from overseas employed whole- or part-time in the hospital service is about 33 per cent.

If the Government cannot now authorise a further medical school, will the Minister undertake to have early discussions with the Welsh National. School of Medicine about ways in which the training—particularly the training of doctors—can be spread geographically? I am thinking, for example, of students taking a clinical year or two at Swansea or Bangor.

The Welsh National School of Medicine and the Government are in the closest contact with Ministers in the Welsh Office.

Does the Government's examination of this subject show that we are not training enough home-produced doctors, or does it show that too many of our doctors are leaving this country after training?

That is a difficult question to answer immediately and perhaps I might correspond with the hon. Member. However, the present target of 4,100 entrants per year to medical schools by 1980 took into account the possible reduction in the flow of doctors from overseas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the possibility of rail cuts in Wales.

My right hon. and learned Friend has received more than 2,000 letters, nearly all of them in a duplicated stock form, opposing any reduction in rail services.

Since we in Wales suffered more from past closures and since, if the consultative document is implemented, we could be more vulnerable in future, can my hon. Friend give us a clear assurance that the Welsh Office favours the retention of the existing rail network in Wales?

The Welsh Office knows where its duty lies in regard to Wales. There are currently no proposals to close any railway line in Wales and the Government have no intention of reducing the size of the network. It remains policy to encourage the transfer to rail of freight traffic, which the railways are best suited to handle, by means of grant. As an example of something close to my hon. Friend's constituency, BP Chemicals was granted 50 per cent. of the cost of providing sidings and so on to transport the highly toxic product propylene to Manchester. The total cost of the project was £220,000.

Although one welcomes that last statement, will the hon. Gentleman accept that, to keep the rail network, an investment programme is necessary to sustain the standards of track and equipment in Wales? In particular, will he cast his mind to the Cambrian Coast line, which is often considered a doubtful line? Will he negotiate with the Wales Tourist Board and British Rail about the possibility of extending the use of that line to tourism so that it links the two important tourist areas of Pwllheli and Dwyfor and the Aberystwyth area and about the tremendous potential for moving tourists from one area to the other, to the benefit of both?

This is a matter for the Wales Tourist Board and British Rail, but the Welsh Office takes a keen interest in activities on the Cambrian Coast line.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to visit Port Talbot.

As the hon. Member may be aware, Port Talbot lies within the constituency which I have the honour to represent in this House. I accordingly make frequent visits, the most recent having been at the end of last week.

During his trips to Port Talbot, by helicopter or otherwise, will the right hon and learned Gentleman find time to read the letter in the Financial Times on 22nd July from Dr. Kay in which he argued that the Secretary of State for Industry was right to limit the extension of Port Talbot steelworks to 4 million tons? If the Secretary of State agrees with that, would he not also agree that the way is now open for investment in modernising the open-hearth furnaces of Shotton, and will he soon press for an announcement?

I saw the letter from Dr. Kay. I am sorry that I cannot agree with him, particularly in view of his past interest in the matter. The hon. Member had best have regard to what he himself asked for in the debate on 20th February 1973, when he said that all he wanted was an assurance—[Interruption]—will the hon. Gentleman allow me?—that there would be no rundown in Shotton in 1974 or 1975 or he would not be able to support the Government at the end of the day. All he got from Mr. Boardman, who was replying, was an assurance that there would be no closure until March 1975, at which he trooped into the Lobby with 294 others.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the development of the steel industry in Port Talbot has an important bearing on the development and future of the tinplate industry, the bulk of which is located in West Wales, much of it in my constituency? Is he aware that the local action committee and all the local authorities are convinced that, unless the development of steel goes forward in Port Talbot in accordance with BSC strategy, the future of the steel industry in this country, facing foreign competition, will be very poor?

No one has been more anxious than I for the development of Port Talbot. Only last Friday I discussed with the works council development committee the Government's offer of an investment of £350 million. It was conveyed to me that the committee was most anxious for BSC to take up immediately the Government's offer and get on with it, although it is fully aware of the local problems.

Is it not the fact that the £350 million does not add to iron- and steel-making capacity? Can the Secretary of State challenge the view that in the two-and-a-half-year period of delay which has just ended not a single extra ton of iron and steel capacity has been achieved and that the absence of decisions about vital issues is gravely damaging to the steel industry in Wales?

If the hon. Gentleman has discussed this matter with his hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir. A. Meyer), he will know that it is of the utmost importance to all local communities for a proper study to be made of all these matters. These studies are continuing, and I hope that we shall reach the right decision at the end of the day.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the starting date for the Caernarvon inner relief road; and if he will make a statement on the progress of preparatory work for this scheme.

The target starting date for this scheme depends on the availability of funds. Acquisition of land and advance demolition work, which have been proceeding as quickly as financial resources have permitted, will continue.

Is the Minister aware that there is grave concern in Caernarvon at the dilapidated state of the town as a result of the slow progress of this project? Is he aware that, whereas some buildings need to be demolished, other buildings which are scheduled for demolition are perfectly good and can be used until it is absolutely necessary to pull them down for the road scheme? Will he and his Department look again at the scheme, in view of the possibility of delay, to ensure that we shall get the maximum possible benefit from the buildings in Caernarvon in the interim period?

I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that I have co-operated with him previously on this difficult problem. If he will let me know specific details, I shall look again at the project in detail.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with careers officers in Wales about the availability of jobs for school leavers.

I have not myself had direct consultations, since this is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, but my office maintains the closest contact with his Department over all aspects of the employment situation, including Government measures to assist unemployed school leavers.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that that is in some ways comforting news, although it does not provide additional jobs? Is he aware that Gwent currently has 15,000 unemployed people, a substantial proportion of whom are young school leavers? Will he use his voice in the Government to promote the idea of immediate reflation of the economy as the only means of overcoming the cause of inflation and our disastrous economic position, which is under-production?

No one is more aware than I am of the serious problem of unemployment. I am sure that my hon. Friend will want to take account of the fact that there have been 2,400 applications in Wales for the recruitment subsidy for school leavers. Under the Job Creation Scheme 3,300 young people will benefit, and the Community Industry Scheme will mean new jobs for 400 young people in Wales. As I said, this is the responsibility of my right hon. Friend, who will shortly be announcing further measures to help with the serious problem of unemployment among young people.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that with our background in Wales unemployment is probably one of the most tragic aspects of all? Has he had discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his other Cabinet colleagues on not increasing public expenditure but diverting public expenditure from other areas to meet this crucial problem?

This is a very difficult problem. It is as the result of such discussion that the schemes I mentioned have already been set up in Wales and elsewhere. I gave particulars of those schemes to the House a few moments ago. As I said, further discussions are going on, and my right hon. Friend will shortly make an announcement.

Would not such consultations belatedly help the right hon. and learned Gentleman to understand the scale of the social catastrophe that the Government's policies have inflicted on the Welsh people and prompt him perhaps to remind his hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) that a 20 per cent. increase in expenditure matched by a 2 per cent. increase in production must inevitably destroy the hopes of the young people of Wales?

The hon. Gentleman is responsible for his own remarks. I have read in the South Wales Echo the remarks of other members of the Shadow Cabinet to the effect that many more cuts are needed. Had we had the public expenditure cuts which the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. Friends wanted, there would have been a much higher rate of unemployment in Wales. We have deliberately sheltered the unemployed in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the negotiations taking place between his Department and the Welsh Centre for International Affairs for the use of the Temple of Peace and Health by the proposed Welsh Assembly.

Responsibility for these negotiations rests with the Property Services Agency, although my Department is participating in them. Negotiations are still proceeding and it is hoped to make an early statement. In the meantime, the House will not expect me to say anything which might prejudice them.

Realising that the latest estimate for the alterations to the Temple of Peace in the event of a Welsh Assembly being established is £1,700,000, does not the Secretary of State agree that the 999-year lease held by the Welsh United Nations Association is extremely valuable and should be recognised as such? Will he give an assurance that, in the event of the South Glamorgan Health Authority's having to move, the cost of the move will fall on the devolution budget and not on the National Health Service?

In reply to the second part of the supplementary question, the area health authority has agreed in principle to move, subject to suitable alternative accommodation being provided. Detailed proposals for this and for the financial arrangements to be made are at present being discussed between the area health authority and my Department. In reply to the first part of the supplementary question, negotiations are proceeding and it would be prejudicial for me to comment at present.

By what right and what power is the Secretary of State negotiating for premises for an Assembly that has not been approved by Parliament? My right hon. and learned Friend is reported to have said that he believes that the debate on the Assembly issue is over. Will he please come down to earth in his helicopter out of the clouds and recognise that the House has not approved the setting up of the Assembly? Will he make certain that any negotiations that are going on are subject not to contract but to the expressed will of the House? He will find that the House is not a creature of the Secretary of State for Wales or the Leader of the House and will be expressing itself next Session.

The statement I made referred to my party and my hon. Friend's party—

I was there before you were.

Order. Not before me.

I said that the debate in my party was over. I am sure that my hon. Friend understands the sense in which I said that. As to negotiations my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House announced to the House the Government's intentions. We are proceeding in the normal way, as is customary.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the objective of those on the Conservative Benches who question him on this matter is to delay the setting up of the Assembly for Wales in favour of an increase in the power of bureaucratic government by increasing the size of the Welsh Office and refusing to submit it to Welsh democratic control?

I am responsible for many things but not for the policy of the Conservative Party.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend explain what could be more bureaucratic—indeed, autocratic—than building a multi-million-pound Assembly without submitting the proposal to the examination or vote of Parliament?

As I said a few minutes ago, my right hon. Friend's announcement was in the usual form—that these matters are proceeding.

At what age will people be able to be elected to the Welsh Assembly? If elections can be from the age of 18, and if the same applies to direct elections to the European Parliament, would it not be a good idea—in answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock)— and take up a lot of the unemployment of school leavers if they were elected to both assemblies?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has made a serious comment and that if he puts himself up for election to the Welsh Assembly it will be treated equally seriously.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the proposed public expenditure cuts will be borne by Wales; how it will affect employment in the Principality; and if he will make a statement.

The reductions in 1977–78 in the public expenditure programmes within my responsibility will be of the order of £12 million at 1976 survey prices. On the other hand, an extra £20 million has been made for housing in Wales and in addition extra resources will be made available to the Welsh Development Agency. There is no reason to believe that employment in Wales will be more adversely affected by these changes than elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the absence of a detailed breakdown of the £12 million suggests that these cuts were imposed upon him directly rather than that they were the result of consultation? Secondly, does he not regard the combination of a reduction in regional employment premium, delayed payment of investment grants and increased employers' national insurance contribution as particularly unfair to assisted areas such as Wales? Is he aware that the resultant unemployment may be considerably more than—possibly three times as great as—the 60,000 projected unemployment talked of by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Finally, what additional funds are to be made available to the Welsh Development Agency, or are they to be a sort of conciliatory gesture?

I listened to the hon. Gentleman with great curiosity. I begin to wonder which party he represents because he speaks with a forked tongue. On the one hand he questions the public expenditure cuts, and then he wants increased public expenditure. He must make up his own mind about this.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend indicate what is the likely effect on unemployment in the construction industry in Wales which is now in crisis? Secondly, he has fought single-mindedly and very effectively for the M4 as vital to the development of Wales. Will last week's cuts have any effect on the development of the M4?

I continue to give, as I have done throughout my period of office, top priority to the building of the M4. I believe that the completion of this long-awaited road is of the utmost importance to the industrial regeneration of South Wales and its future.

I welcome the extra money which is to be made available for housing in Wales, but will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain what this sum is extra to? There were planned cuts on a fixed programme. Is not this merely a restoration of what ought to have been a reasonable level of spending to change the position where one in every seven houses is unfit? Expenditure on housing has to be seen in relation to the overall problem.

The cuts were imposed in the down-trend in house building in Wales as part of the philosophy of Tory Members. We have a tremendous record for new house building in Wales of which I am very proud. The figures for last year rose 140 per cent. on the previous year. This will mean that last year I obtained between £20 million and £30 million extra for house building in Wales, which would bring the figure to £183 million on 1975 prices compared with the Conservative figure of £101 million. Next year there will be an additional £20 million, which will give us, again at 1975 prices, £162 million compared with the Conservative figure of £105 million.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman explain how the massive increase in wage costs which is now to be imposed on Welsh industry by the Chancellor's announcement and which will have a particularly severe effect in the regions can lead to the upturn in industrial development and production which we all so much desire?

Our vital need as a country is to ensure that we conquer inflation, and in that I should have thought that we would have the support of the hon. Gentleman. Instead, what he wants on the one hand is a decrease in public expenditure, yet on the other hand he is opposed to cuts.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning rehabilitation services in South Wales.

None recently. I have, however, invited and received comments from interested organisations on the recommendations of the Working Party on Rehabilitation Services in Industrial South Wales.

Does the Minister agree that if the artificial limbs and appliances centre at Cardiff were resited at Rookwood Hospital it would be able to play a great part in such important future developments as biochemical engineering?

This is a very important subject and I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has raised it. I have taken note of the working party's recommendation that a new ALAC should be built at Rookwood Hospital. This is under consideration as part of the review of the National Health Service capital programme for Wales as a whole which will be carried out over the coming months. At present I can mention no starting time and no figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will make a statement on the amount of financial aid to be given to Lonrho; and what are the conditions attached to it.

The purpose of the £4·9 million is to save 1,800 jobs in special development areas. The main conditions provide that it is secured and repayable in equal instalments from January 1979. It is interest-free up to the end of 1977: thereafter interest is payable at the rate of 10 per cent per annum until January 1981 and at 12 per cent. per annum for the remaining two years. I understand that the workers involved welcome the outcome.

Does my hon. Friend understand that we would all accept the need to preserve jobs, especially in a development area? Will he also understand that the terms which he has outlined are not sufficient to satisfy many Labour Members? Does he not appreciate that we are dealing with a firm which is the very epitome of the ugly and greedy face of capitalism? Why do not the Government take a considerable equity share in this company rather than allow themselves to be subjected to the kind of terms that my hon. Friend has announced to the House today?

Obviously I looked at all possibilities when we were considering the proposal. Brentford Nylons was available on the market from February. The only meaningful offer to come forward was that from Lonhro. In those circumstances we felt that, in view of the alternative capital commitment which would be required for the co-operative venture which was suggested but which never came forward—we estimated that it would cost at least £12 million and probably nearer £15 million—this was the most appropriate and cheapest way of saving jobs.

We realise that many Socialists prefer unemployment to capitalist jobs, but will the Minister of State support the view of Mr. Joe Wright, the convener at the Brentford Nylons factory at Cramlington, who greatly welcomed the Lonhro intervention and the Government assistance and reject what Mr. Wright called the "ill-informed criticism" of Members of Parliament and others who are concerned only to ventilate their own dogmatic views regardless of the effect on other people's jobs?

In view of the developments of the past few weeks, it is understandable that hon. Members would be concerned about this proposition. It is helpful that as many of the facts as possible should be brought out. That is why I welcome this Question, because it enables me to explain more fully to my colleagues, and indeed to all hon. Members, why I made the recommendation that I did.

Would not my hon. Friend agree that it is perfectly understandable for workers in any factory who are faced with dismissal to accept and, indeed, clutch at a straw which will save their jobs? The statements made by the shop stewards are perfectly understandable in the circumstances. Would my hon. Friend not also agree, however, that Labour Party policy over the years has been that, where public money of this kind is to be used, an attempt should be made to take equity shares so that the Government and the community at large get something back from the public money which is put in? Does my hon. Friend understand that no one is opposing the saving of jobs but that the Government should have done something about taking over the company?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's reference to equity participation, but in this case what was needed was a short-term infusion of capital to enable management expertise to be obtained and to get correct marketing links. We believe that the procedure we followed was the best and the most inexpensive way to do it.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will have discussions with the Civil Service regarding its incremental salary increases being voluntarily included within the 4+ per cent. maximum permitted by the new incomes policy.

No, Sir.

Is it not correct to say that many in the public sector can and do receive annual increments on top of their pay settlements? Would it not have been much fairer if in the private and public sectors such annual increments were considered to be part of the pay policy rather than payable on top of it?

The point I wish to reiterate is that the Civil Service is treated in precisely the same way as employees in the private sector. The policy has been laid down by the Government and endorsed by the Trades Union Congress.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement about Civil Service pensions.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on Monday 19th July.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he not agree that it would have been outrageous to have given way to some 'f the more extreme demands from the Opposition Benches about public service pensions when the pledges given to the public servants were introduced by the previous Government and endorsed by this House? Will my hon. Friend accept the gratitude of public servants for the fact that the pledges given by the present and previous Governments have been upheld, and will he also resist the more extreme demands for cuts in Civil Service manpower which are made by some people and which have been bandied around in the Press recently?

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's comments. Gratitude is not a quality which Ministers in the Civil Service Department encounter too often. I emphasise my hon. Friend's point when he said that the proposals of the Government with regard to index-linking of public service pensions brought no more than justice to that group of pensioners.

Will the hon. Gentleman say what proportion of the Government's public expenditure cuts will be achieved in the Civil Service?

The Government indicated in the White Paper this year that they were seeking to economise on administration to the extent of £140 million. It is hoped that a public statement on that figure will be made in the nottoo-distant future.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the progress made in the programme to disperse Civil Service jobs to Glasgow.

As I told the hon. Member on 10th May, the Departments concerned are continuing to make good progress with detailed planning for the moves that have been announced, and which are due to take place for the Ministry of Overseas Development in 1980 and for the Ministry of Defence in 1982 to 1984.

In view of the desperate unemployment situation in Scotland, can the Minister give a clear assurance that at his meeting with civil servants tomorrow he will not agree to any delay in the transfer of the Ministry of Defence to Glasgow? In view of the repeated rumours and uncertainty, can he say when a contract will be placed for the construction of the new MOD building and when the jobs will start coming?

It is expected that construction at East Kilbride will begin by the end of 1977 and at the St. Enoch site by the end of 1979. The MOD department at the St. Enoch site in Glasgow will be one of the largest buildings in Scotland. Bearing in mind that these are major projects which require careful planning and large-scale construction work, all of this must inevitably take some time.

Will my hon. Friend accept that there are many parts in the English regions which are desperately in need of this kind of employment and which were completely ignored in the Hardman Report? Will he assure me that next time dispersal is considered it will be carried out on a more realistic and less prejudiced basis so that the smaller centres as distinct from big cities may have a share?

I cannot accept that the Hardman Committee proceeded on a prejudiced basis. I recognise my hon. Friend's legitimate claim to speak on behalf of South Yorkshire, and that is an area to which we are giving attention at present, but when he asks me to ensure that the regions are borne in mind I can assure him that they are very much borne in mind. Indeed, I am a regional Member myself.

Does the Minister deny that the reluctance of civil servants to move to Scotland is partly because many employees would lose the London weighting allowance and the cost of living is high in Scotland? Is he aware that some of us believe that the answer is for Scotland to have its own Civil Service, thereby saving the cost of civil servants travelling up and down from Scotland to London?

The fragmentation of the Civil Service would not be helpful either to the Chancellor of the Exchequer or to the people of Scotland.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the future of the Civil Service College in Edinburgh.

In so far as consultations with the National Staff Side have not been completed. I am not yet able to announce a decision on the future of the Edinburgh centre.

Will my hon. Friend accept from one who goes as guest lecturer frequently to this college that there is high morale and there are high-quality staff who feel that they are doing a good job? Can he say how the Prime Minister, when he mets the National Staff Side tomorrow, will explain that the Government can apparently find resources for a huge Edinburgh Assembly and yet have to close down a vital Civil Service college, the only one outside the London area?

I fully endorse my hon. Friend's eulogy of the contribution made by the staff at the Edinburgh college. They make a first-class contribution. In reply to my hon. Friend's request that I should explain how the Prime Minister will react to any points which the National Staff Side may make tomorrow in the discussions which he is to have with it. I can only say that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is quite capable of presenting his own case on such occasions.

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the college in Edinburgh is to get the "chop"? It so, how can he justify this? It is the only Civil Service college outside London and the South-East, and it is doing a splendid job. Why is it being chopped in favour of larger establishments in London?

As I say, I cannot give an answer at this stage because the consultations with the National Staff Side are proceeding. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not interpret every such proposal in the context of nationalist sentiments. To suggest that the Civil Service College in Scotland is wholly Scottish completely misrepresents the situation. It does not cater exclusively or wholly for Scottish civil servants.

Does not the Minister recognise that his continued complacency is not good enough? It is high time that he ended the uncertainty among the staff at this excellent college.

I find it difficult to accept the hon. Gentleman's criticism that I have been complacent in this matter. At this stage, we are not making any announcement or general statement on the matter.

Will not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that it would be ironic if, at a time when the Government are bringing forward proposals for an Assembly which will require its own civil servants, they were simultaneously to axe the civil servants north of the Watford Gap?

I do not accept that there is a contradiction in policy. There is a Civil Service College in Edinburgh. It is doing a first-class job and it is staffed by first-class people, but it does not cater wholly or exclusively for Scottish civil servants.

asked the Lord President of the Council what steps were taken to ameliorate working conditions of hon. Members and staff of the House of Commons during the recent heat-wave.

Before the hot spell began, major improvements in the ventilation system had already been carried out, including a new system in the police mess, and air conditioning had been provided in the Members' and Strangers' Cafeterias. New ceiling fans were installed in the kitchens, other fans were reallocated and 200 extra fans were borrowed from the RAF. The police, custodians and staff of the Refreshment Department were permitted to work in shirt-sleeves. I am sure the whole House will be grateful to all the staff for providing their normal service during what were often very difficult conditions.

Is there any truth in the report that some of the new electric fans are imported from Japan? If that is so, is it not a disgraceful discrimination against British industry? Would it not be a good idea to bring Parliament into the twentieth century by not forcing the Badge Messengers to wear penguin suits or Mr. Speaker and his staff to wear wigs?

I agree with my hon. Friend. I shall deal with the jackets worn by the Doorkeepers on the next Question. I agree that there should be a more radical treatment of the whole question, but that would involve major changes in the building itself.

Will the right hon. Gentleman consider, as is the practice in Commonwealth legislatures, designing a dignified attire which would be suited to sub-tropical conditions when they occur?

That is the subject of the next Question, which has been tabled by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten).

Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be more constructive towards helping staff in this noble establishment if a way could be found of telling them when they will have to work many hours of overtime, which they do without previous notice? Is there not some way of making the system more flexible instead of expecting the staff to go on hour after hour in conditions which are intolerable in a building which is not covered by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act?

There are many improvements that could be made in the conditions of those who work so well for the House. There are also improvements that could be made in providing more information when possible. I shall make further inquiries about the matter.

Does the Leader of the House agree that the problem is not primarily one of dress, because it does not arise mainly in the Chamber or in the Members' Lobby? Is he aware that even if hon. Members and staff had conducted proceedings in Committee and their offices and had worked in the nude they would still have found it too hot in the recent weather? Does he not agree that the problem would be much reduced if we conducted most of our business in the cooler part of the year and took our holidays in the hotter part?

These are questions that can be considered by the new Procedure Committee. But I am not sure whether the Committee will be able to solve that problem.

asked the Lord President of the Council what steps have been taken to provide more suitable summer attire for the staff of the House, particularly the Badge Messengers and Doorkeepers.

Arrangements are being made for light-weight jackets to be provided in future for the Dorkeepers.

I am sure that the staff will very much appreciate that next year. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the change-over to summer attire is brought in when it becomes warm rather than on a certain date, as is the case with central heating in the Civil Service and on British Rail, which has a fixed date for starting and ending? Will he ensure that the system is flexible?

I shall take the hon. Gentleman's point into consideration. I am in favour of as much free choice as possible for the staff.

Has my right hon. Friend entertained the thought that being responsible for the business of the House and either breaking up or preventing the breaking up of the United Kingdom gives him enough to do without his having to bother about where a particular fan was made or what clothing should be worn by members of the staff? Will he indicate that he is prepared to give up the chairmanship of the Services Committee, which has nothing to do with him, and have that post taken over by a Back Bencher?

I am willing to consider that suggestion. My hon. Friend would make a good candidate for that post. At the moment I have the job, and I am sure that the House will be gratified to know that I was not directly responsible for the way in which the fans were operating.

Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why there is all this fuss about summer attire? Is it not the case that if people want to be cool they should keep their normal clothing on rather than take it off?

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is one of the few hon. Members of the House who is exactly the same all the year round.

asked the Lord President of the Council how many letters he has now received from the general public and organisations, respectively, on the Government's devolution proposals.

Since publication of the White Paper my right hon. Friend has received 164 letters from the general public and 41 from organisations, including letters addressed to the Constitution Unit.

Will the Minister accept that opinion in Scotland is swinging against devolution as people begin to realise how much it will cost and the problems involved? Is it not an outrage that, at a time when a cut is being imposed for home helps and school crossing patrol attendants, an extra £10 million a year is to be spent on this silly bureaucratic Assembly?

I do not accept anything that the hon. Gentleman says. He must not confuse his own sincerely-held opinions with general opinion in Scotland. We made promises in our election manifesto which we are determined to fulfil.

Will my hon. Friend accept that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) is the last person to whom he should listen about the opinion of the people of Scotland? Does he accept that the people of Scotland want devolution and an Assembly and that they will have that Assembly before this Parliament is finished?

I agree with all that my hon. Friend has said.

Does the Minister agree that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) would be better placed in a museum of antiquities? When it comes to assessing the needs of the people of Scotland and their problems, does he not agree with the hon. Member for East Kilbride (Dr. Miller) who said that Scotland's oil means a lot to Scotland and little to England?

The future of the hon. Member for Cathcart rests with the electorate and not with me. Oil will be of great benefit to the United Kingdom as a whole and to Scotland in particular. I reject any under-assessment of it by the hon. Lady and her colleagues.

What is more important to our constituents, the local authority personal services such as home helps or yet another additional tier of government in Edinburgh?

My hon. Friend can take many items of expenditure and make false comparisons. We are concerned with having a good level of social services but also that democratic changes should be made. The vast majority of my hon. Friend's colleagues, particularly those representing Scottish constituencies, strongly support devolution.

Is the Minister aware that it is not only in Scotland but in England that the Government's devolution proposals are viewed with increasing distaste? By what lawful authority are the Government engaging in the expenditure of public funds on the Royal High School in Edinburgh?

I am as good a judge as the hon. Gentleman in these matters, especially of opinion north of the border. He may recall—he can look it up in Hansard—that the expenditure on the Contingency Fund was announced to Parliament before Easter without dissent from the Opposition.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the figure of £10 million which was mentioned earlier is probably too small? Is he also aware that there will be bitter resistance to devolution from some hon. Members on the Labour Benches if it means a diminution of resources in the public sector in the English regions to finance this over-expensive and unnecessary legislation for Scotland and Wales?

I can assure my hon. Friend that our devolution proposals in no way mean a diminution of public services to other parts of the United Kingdom. We shall take care to make sure that that is so. I am sure that that is understood by my hon. Friend, who is rightly anxious about the area he represents. Once it becomes clear that this is not an attempt to reallocate resources, he will perhaps, like many of his hon. Friends, take a different view of devolution.