asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what further measures for the convenience of business and other passengers are proposed to be taken at Aldergrove Airport.

Later this year work is due to start on a £10 million airport development scheme to provide Belfast Airport with greatly improved airside and passenger facilities.

Welcoming the improvements to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, may I ask him whether he will see that the whole weight of the Northern Ireland Office is put behind the request for a thorough re-examination of the necessity and methods of the security checks which are employed at Aldergrove and on all the routes between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as these are gravely prejudicial to business and other economic contacts between the parts of the Kingdom and are in themselves illogical and in part unnecessary?

I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman's continuing interest in this subject and, of course, that of his hon. Friends. The Northern Ireland Office, like him and his hon. Friends, takes an acute interest in the subject. It is a subject that is under continuing review. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we shall continue to look at the matter in considerable earnestness.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on energy policy both as to the immediate future and the long term, having regard to the high cost of present sources which disadvantage the people, industry and commerce of Northern Ireland.

This is a large and complex subject, but I would reiterate the Government's concern that electricity and gas prices in Northern Ireland are now the highest in the United Kingdom. I am considering a report on the Northern Ireland Electricity Service. The problems facing the gas industry are the subject of a separate study by the British Gas Corporation which will not be completed for some months.

Does the Minister agree that this is a matter of extreme urgency and that the problem arises out of Northern Ireland's dependency on expensive oil? Will he make an examination of the feasibility of the greater use of natural gas, bearing in mind the enormous increase in fuel costs of recent time? Has he noted that the Quigley Report records that since 1972, taking the index base of 100, costs soared in Northern Ireland to 317 in 1975, against an equivalent of 249·5 in England, that for gas in Northern Ireland the domestic consumer pays 45p per therm as against 14·35p per therm in Great Britain, and that industrial consumers in Northern Ireland pay 30p per therm as against 5·16p in Great Britain?

Order. I am reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but he is giving a lot of information rather than seeking it.

I am asking the Minister, Mr. Speaker, whether he is aware of the great discrepancy. Will the Minister note the enormous burden that this presents to Northern Ireland industry, and the consequent effect on employment?

I am very much aware of this. Putting the matter the other way around, gas prices in Northern Ireland are three times what they are, on average, in the rest of Great Britain. The cost of electricity for the domestic consumer in Northern Ireland is 20 per cent. higher and for the industrial consumer it is 50 per cent. higher. That is why I am sometimes worried about previous decisions that have left us with this problem in Northern Ireland. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that I am well aware of the Quigley Report, but this has some financial connotations. We are doing what we can in that respect.

Will my hon. Friend indicate what publicity is being given in Northern Ireland to the code of practice of the Department of Energy in regard to the fuel disconnections that seem likely to arise this winter in view of the very high prices to which he has referred?

As I think Northern Ireland Members know, on fuel prices in Northern Ireland this winter we have made a special case. We have this for gas prices as well, due to those prices being, as I have said, three times the average of those in the rest of Great Britain. However, there is quite a lot of publicity about this matter and the guidelines appertain to my Department as well as to others.

In considering the future of the gas industry—it is unfortunate that there is still a delay in the appearance of the report—will the Government bear in mind that in Great Britain areas which cannot, for physical reasons, be served with natural gas enjoy the benefits of a tariff which takes into account the costs of natural gas? Will the Minister seriously consider the application of the same principle to the analogous situation in Northern Ireland?

The whole problem is that this is a matter for the British Gas Corporation within Great Britain. When I look back, I find that this is one of the decisions about which I worry. In Northern Ireland, this matter is to a great extent still in private hands, or in local government hands. With the price of oil quad rupling over the last few years, the fact that Northern Ireland depends on oil-based gas, has meant that the Province is at a great disadvantage. However, the gas study will be coming along, and this will be one of the things that we shall be looking at.

What progress is being made in the search for natural gas and natural oil under the offshore waters of Northern Ireland, especially in the Irish Sea area?

We should be only too delighted if we could find natural gas off the shores of Northern Ireland so that we could enjoy that supply. However, such a supply has not yet been found and we have to make do with the existing capacity, bearing in mind the capacity that has been planned and is still in construction.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the members of the Police Complaints Board for Northern Ireland.

The Order in Council which will establish the Police Complaints Board is expected to be made shortly. Thereafter, members of the board can be appointed. The names of the members will be made public in due course.

I am sure that the Minister will concede and agree that the members of the board will all be civilians—people without any experience of police work. I am sure that he will also agree that the terms of the draft order provide that the civilian board will be able to over-rule the Chief Constable, and that the Chief Constable is held in the highest esteem by the Government in Northern Ireland and by the majority of the people. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that a situation in which a civilian board may over-rule the Chief Constable is worthy of being described by what has become a famous phrase over the past year, namely, a thundering disgrace?

That was a thundering long question.

I hope that my reply will give no thunder. I believe that the proposals are in the interests of those who serve in the constabulary. If an independent board is seen to be operating independently, it will be to the advantage of those in the force. It is clear that for some time there have been questions about inquiries or investigations undertaken by the police into accusations of maladministration or malpractice. I believe that in that respect the complete independence of all members of the board will be helpful. I must correct one wrong impression. The board will be able, in limited circumstances, to direct that an inquiry be held, or that further consideration be given to any complaint that is made to it, but it will not be able to over-rule the Chief Constable in any other sector of his operations. "Over-rule" is a strong word.

What consultations will the hon. Gentleman have, and whom will he consult before he appoints the members of the board?

Account will be taken of a number of representations that have already been made to us as to who shall comprise the board. We shall be only too willing to listen to further representations. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept the invitation and make known his views, which will be taken into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he intends to bring forward proposals to improve administration in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals the Government has for devolution in Northern Ireland.

The Government's principal aim is to see stable and effective devolved government in Northern Ireland accepted and supported by both sides of the community. I believe that the people of Northern Ireland want reconciliation and agreement, and that it can be reached.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that despite all his efforts to improve the quality of government in Northern Ireland, which we all appreciate, the system as it stands fails to provide satisfaction for the citizen and burdens Parliament and Ministers with matters with which they would not be concerned elsewhere in the United Kingdom? Is there now any real reason for delaying the start of a process of returning administrative authority to elected representatives in Northern Ireland?

I shall be interested to know in a little more detail the hon. Gentleman's ideas about administrative devolution. As I indicated in my initial reply, I have undertaken a special study of how best we can help to bridge the gap between my ministerial team, Her Majesty's Government, the 26 councils and the many local councillors. I hope to be making a statement on that fairly soon.

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that it is rather anomalous that at a time when the House is debating devolution to Scotland and Wales there are no proposals before it in respect of devolution to Northern Ireland? Does he also think that there is merit in the suggestion put forward from the Opposition Benches that he might set up a Council of State in Northern Ireland?

I have not seen any proposals about a Council of State. The words are used loosely and glibly, but I have seen no detailed proposals. As for fresh proposals for devolved government in Northern Ireland emanating from Her Majesty's Government, although we make quite clear that it is our aim I must warn the House, and especially the hon. Gentleman, that I am not in favour of dramatic initiatives or impositions, or of trying to force the people together. I hope that the House and all parties concerned have learned those lessons. I hope that there will be proposals coming from the political parties concerned that will command widespread acceptance throughout the Community. If they are brought forward, I shall be prepared to step in and help.

Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to a recent speech by the Most Reverend Dr. Daly, the Bishop of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise, in which he requested the British Government to take further steps to try to resolve the admittedly difficult deadlock in Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend take it from me that there is no great demand for a better administration as put forward by the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux), and that the only hopeful form of devolved institution in Northern Ireland would be a legislative assembly commanding the respect of both communities in Northern Ireland? Does my right hon. Friend not believe that it may now be advantageous to have further discussions with the poltical parties in Northern Ireland to see whether it is possible to find some form of agreement?

On my hon. Friend's latter point, I see no movement yet. I have seen no movement during the time I have been Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. I should like to be encouraged in that respect, and I await some proposals from the parties concerned. I read and heard the comments of the member of the cloth, speaking from the Republic, about a lack of initiative from Her Majesty's Government but, of course, he proffered no solutions. He was adequately replied to by the Foreign Minister of the Republic. I was pleased to hear that Bishop Daly denounced the activities of the IRA.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that for a long time we have been warning that there could be a political no man's land in Northern Ireland, and that there are dangers in such a situation? The hon. Member for Antrim South (Mr. Molyneaux) has been making his contribution and we shall make ours in the form of plans for a Council of State. Is it not wrong for the Government to say that they will take no political initiative in Northern Ireland? Will they publish a White Paper setting out their plans and the prospects for the future government for Northern Ireland over, for example, the next five years?

No, I do not think that I would consider seriously at this stage the production of a White Paper. I should not like to say emphatically and dogmatically that there will be no political initiatives from Her Majesty's Government, but I am not satisfied that the time is now righ or opportune.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that people will welcome his statement that there can be no administrative devolution unless there is proper power sharing in questions of administration? That will allay many fears that the suggestion might have been a backdoor move to the situation that existed at the time of Stormont. Is my right hon. Friend also aware that many people in Northern Ireland do not seem to appreciate that initiatives at a political level include not only the work of political institutions and forums but, for example, my right hon. Friend's remarkable victory in retaining REP for Northern Ireland and the imaginative proposals of the Quigley Report, all of which will help create the stable conditions in which we hope that politicians themselves will be prepared to come and talk?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that question. First, it is essential that in any form of devolving government it must be understood from the outset that it shall be a partnership between the two communities. Second, if direct rule is seen to benefit the people as a whole—members of both communities—thereafter the people may not yearn for change, especially change for change's sake.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will announce the commencement date for the infill scheme relating to the Donegall Pass housing programme; and if he will give the date on which he hopes to issue vesting orders for the entire Donegall Pass area.

It is for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive to decide when to begin the infill scheme. When a vesting application is received from the Housing Executive in respect of the Donegall Pass redevelopment areas as a whole my Department will deal with it as expeditiously as possible.

Is the Minister aware that the Donegall Pass area is one of the most derelict areas in the whole of Belfast and that his predecessor with responsibility for housing gave a commitment to a deputation that I led that the redevelopment scheme would begin early in 1977 and the infill scheme at the end of 1976? Is he also aware that his answer will cause great concern to those in that area who have tried to help themselves?

This is a very complex matter, as are all schemes of redevelopment in Belfast. But as I understand it, the Housing Executive hopes to come forward with a request for the vesting procedure some time in March. As soon as that has been examined by public inquiry, we can go ahead with redevelopment.

When does the Minister expect that the detailed changes resulting from the change in emphasis in housing expenditure in Northern Ireland will be published so that people may know what is entailed?

I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman means. The change in emphasis has been announced—more towards redevelopment and rehabilitation in Belfast. As a consequence, some areas in Northern Ireland without a pressing housing problem will have their housing programmes slightly diminished. But that is as far as we have gone at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he intends to be present, or to be represented, at the 59th Session of the Committee of Foreign Ministers of the Council of Europe on 27th January, when the European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism is opened for signature.

No, Sir. The United Kingdom will be represented by a Foreign: and Commonwealth Office Minister.

In a week that has seen deplorably spineless action by the French Government in regard to terrorism, is not this convention ever more important, and would not the presence of a Northern Ireland Minister at the signing, which I appreciate is essentially a Foreign and Commonwealth Office matter, encourage the Government of the Republic of Eire also to sign fully, so demonstrating clearly that it is joining others in rooting out terrorism in all parts of the island of Ireland?

We are straying into the Foreign Office field rather than the question of my own personal responsibilities, but I hope—I have noticed the motions on the Order Paper—that the House will not be misled into feeling that the convention has been denounced because of the activities of the French in the recent terrorist case. The convention itself has not yet come into being. The signing is not until 27th January, and we shall have to wait for at least three Council of Europe countries to ratify after that.

Under paragraph 5 of the Command Paper which we debated on Monday, did the Ministers of the Common Market not agree to do everything they could to suppress terrorism? Ireland is a member of the Common Market.

The hon. Gentleman may be right, but that Government is not yet bound by the Suppression of Terrorism Convention. The signatures will be called for on 27th January and we intend to sign and to ratify. We hope that every other country in the Council of Europe, including the Republic, will do so. In doing so, we shall take a major step forward in the capture of terrorists within Northern Ireland. Those that have fled to the South will have no political argument for remaining there.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

I explained to the House in detail the Government's policy for dealing with violence during the debate on 17th December. Since then there have been a number of attacks against members of the security forces resulting in the deaths of one policeman and three soldiers. In the same period five civilians have been killed. I can assure the House that the security forces will continue to deal firmly with violence from whatever quarter it arises during 1977. In the year that has just ended the security forces achieved very real success in bringing the terrorists and gangsters before the courts. 1,276 people were charged with terrorist offences—241 of them for murder or attempted murder.

What value does the right hon. Gentleman attach to the peace movement? Will he back the movement more by stepping up measures to catch top terrorists?

No one could ask the peace movement people to become involved in capturing the terrorists. Her Majesty's Government have not stepped in either to discourage or to encourage what the peace movement has done. Any official intervention would merely give succour and aid to the extremists who would like to see the peace people denounced. I see no necessity to give them that sort of propaganda weapon. But since the peace movement began it has certainly helped the community of Northern Ireland to feel safer and to co-operate with the police. Since it began there has been an increase of at least 12 per cent. in the use of the confidential telephone in assisting the police with their inquiries.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my hon. Friend's reference to the apprehension of top terrorists was addressed to him rather than to the peace movement? We are glad that our point of view has been accepted to the extent of the prospect of five conrate platoons for the UDF, but when will they be ready for action? Are not these 200 full-timers insufficient for the UDR to have an effective operational capacity by day? Is it the Government's policy to match withdrawals of Regular troops with increases in the combatant strength of the UDR?

It is not for me to determine what the Secretary of State for Defence will do as he gradually thinks about the redeployment of units, and I do not think that he would necessarily match the rundown of the British Army to the increase in conrates. I do not know when they will be ready. It will take time to recruit them and screen them. After all, these will be professional UDR men. As for the organisers of violence, on 17th December I said that of those terrorists charged, 18, in our opinion, were organisers of violence. I am glad to say that another two in that range were charged last week.

As the right hon. Gentleman recently had intimate knowledge of the Ministry of Defence, will he assure us that the recent spate of defence cuts will not lead to an increase in the frequency of emergency tours for British soldiers in Northern Ireland and that there will normally be a 12-month gap between such tours unless the security situation sharply deteriorates?

I cannot give the categorical assurance that the hon. Member seeks, but he will recognise that running down the force strength in Northern Ireland by another 500—equivalent to a unit—means that there will be a slower turn-round of the use of forces from BAOR and the United Kingdom land forces, and that therefore they will remain away from Northern Ireland a little longer than in the past before going on tour.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that, important as the security measures are—both sides of the House regard them as very important—they are not so much a measure of success as a measure of the intractability of the problem we are facing together? Difficult as are new initiatives, as my right hon. Friend said, the continuing slaughter is a measure of the problem that we are failing to solve. Does my right hon. Friend agree that individual initiatives such as those taken recently by Opposition Members are increasingly important, and that all the groupings concerned with the problem should be brought together so that they can talk to one another across the table and put forward their initiatives to my right hon. Friend?

My hon. Friend has uttered my sentiments in better words than I could have used. There are seven political parties in Northern Ireland which share responsibility for the absence of devolved government there. The tide of devolved government will leave Northern Ireland behind as Scotland and Wales get their Administrations. Those parties have the opportunity—I hope they will take it—to cross the sectarian divide, shake hands and come to an agreement on the type of devolved government they want. I am prepared to step in, but I want first to see widespread acceptance by the parties concerned.

I warmly welcome the Secretary of State's attitude to firmer security policy in Northern Ireland, but will he recollect what I said on 17th December about the need for countering propaganda from terrorist sources and for a concerted campaign against it? Will he say whether he had useful talks recently with the broadcasting authorities on these matters?

I am fully aware of the propaganda war between the security forces and the Provisional IRA, the UVF and the UFF. I had an interesting and fascinating conversation after dinner. I hope that the BBC enjoyed it as much as I did.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the present position of the £6 per week pay rise for full-time members of the RUC

I refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 4th November 1976 to one of his Written Questions, and also to the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department on 22nd December 1976 in reply to a Written Question from the hon. Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn).

Does the hon. Gentleman concede that the members of the RUC are doing a very good job in Northern Ireland and that the recent threat to their wives and families by the IRA in County Armagh calls for the Government's wholehearted support of the RUC? Why has the Police Reserve been able to get a pay rise while those who are working full-time have not?

I am pleased to confirm that all my colleagues believe that the members of the RUC and others who serve the RUC have been doing a first-class job on behalf of the Province. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that in any negotiations on police pay we have followed the principle of parity. There are many difficulties when parity is applied directly in Northern Ireland, but if we depart from the main principle we run into more difficulties. Special circumstances arise in relation to the Police Reserve, with which we have had to cope. The part-time reserve may have had some advantage; whether it has depends on the question of interpretation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people were killed and injured as a result of criminal activity in Northern Ireland during 1976.

A total of 296 people were killed and 2,632 injured in Northern Ireland in 1976 as a direct result of the disturbances.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what is the running total of sectarian murders during the 1970s? Does he consider that the leaders of Northern Ireland opinion are sufficiently willing to condemn sectarian violence, no matter from which side of the sectarian divide it originates?

There are always included in the figures quite a number of sectarian and inter-factional killings committed by the extremists and the far ends of the communities in Northern Ireland. The figures for sectarian and inter-factional assassinations are as follows: in 1972 there were 122; in 1973 there were 87; in 1974 there were 95; in 1975 there were 144; and in 1976 there were 120.

Will the Secretary of State say what political constraints there are on the security forces in regard to the number of random checks, house checks, cordon searches and searches carried out in Northern Ireland in pursuit of terrorists?

There are no political restraints on the operations of Her Majesty's security forces, but they have to recognise, as does everyone else in Northern Ireland, that they have to operate within the law.

I welcome the increasing success of the RUC, evidenced by the figures that the Secretary of State gave earlier of arrests and charges. I recognise the statistical difficulty, but is it possible for him to give more information to the House and the country about convictions and sentences?

I shall certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's request and see how best I can furnish the information in the Official Report or other media. I am always prepared to give as much information as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the operation of the Meat Industry Employment Scheme.

Yes. The Meat Industry Employment Scheme has enabled Northern Ireland beef and pig processing plants to compete successfully for supplies of cattle and pigs, thereby maintaining employment in the industry despite the differential between the United Kingdom and Irish Republic green pounds.

The Northern Ireland Members welcome the Meat Industry Employment Scheme, but is the hon. Gentleman aware of the pressing problems experienced in the export of live animals from Northern Ireland to Great Britain? Will not the present arrangement encourage some persons to smuggle animals from Northern Ireland into the Irish Republic and export them, apparently legally, to Great Britain? Does the Minister agree that the best way to overcome the problem would be to give the same facilities to the live export trade from Northern Ireland as are given to the dead trade?

No, I do not agree that that is the best way to deal with the problem. The primary objective of the Meat Industry Employment Scheme is to protect employment, not to stop the activities of smugglers. We do not feel justified in extending the scheme to cattle shippers or the live export trade, or to make any particular arrangement for financial support to shipping companies. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that smuggling has been a pastime for many years. Money is not always the primary factor.

Will my hon. Friend accept my sympathy? In addition to the vanishing pig he has a reappearing pig, in the Ulster context. Both in Ulster and on the mainland the pigmeat industry and the farmers are in serious difficulties. I appreciate what is being done to renegotiate the individual MCAs. I understand that there is a proposal for emergency aid of 50p per score. Some of us think that this immediate action should be taken, in view of the bureaucracy of the Common Market. Will my hon. Friend support his right hon. Friend in considerations of that nature?

My hon. Friend brings to my attention proposals that have not yet been confirmed by those who hold agricultural briefs on behalf of the Government. I agree that there have been many problems in the pig sector, not least in terms of the high cost of importing food. Whether these problems can be resolved in the way suggested by my hon. Friend, I am not certain, but any financial support must make a contribution to regional problems in the industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next expects to meet representatives of trade unions in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland Ministers and officials are in constant touch with representatives of the trade unions in Northern Ireland and meetings are arranged when the need arises.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the trade union movement in Northern Ireland has a long and outstanding record of campaigning against sectarianism and violence, and campaigning for peace with equality of opportunity in such areas as employment, education and housing? Will my hon. Friend therefore give the trade union movement every opportunity to make its influence felt throughout the whole community by, for example, appointing trade union representatives to public bodies such as the Northern Ireland Housing Executive?

My colleagues and I recognise the contribution made by trade unions in Northern Ireland. In view of the background of my colleagues, it would be rather amiss if we did not. I do not know what talks my hon. Friend had with the trade union movement over there but I am rather surprised at the length of the latter part of his question, because in the summer I asked the trade union movement to supply me with a list of trade union members who could be appointed to various committees. I understand that the list arrived in the Office only on 29th December.

Will the hon. Gentleman at an early date meet representatives of the National Union of General and Municipal Workers, which is the largest union in the gas industry in Northern Ireland and whose members are gravely concerned about the future of the industry?

I am continually meeting trade union groups. I do not think that anybody who has written to me asking for a meeting has not been accorded an interview with either myself or one of my colleagues.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to encourage the co-operation of the whole community in the law enforcement activities of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

The development of the schemes for local police centres and district liaison committees, together with the continuing work of the part-time Reserve, illustrate the importance that we attach to local involvement in policing and public identification with the police. These initiatives are complemented by publicity campaigns designed to encourage the support and co-operation of the public.

Does the Minister agree that the peace movement has given the Government a new initiative to gain community support? What effective and sustained policing is now taking place in minority urban areas? What attempts are being made to increase recruiting to the Royal Ulster Constabulary from those areas? Has the hon. Gentleman given any thought to local community assistance to the police in those areas?

The hon. Gentleman asks for specific figures about recruitment. Perhaps he will forgive me if I ask that he gives notice of this request. I should prefer to give precise figures rather than to make estimates or give approximate figures.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now consider the segregation of Loyalist and Republican prisoners as a result of the recent disturbances in the Crumlin Road Prison; and how many prisoners and wardens suffered injury in the disturbances.

No. In the recent incidents in Her Majesty's Prison, Belfast, which may well have been stage-managed, three prison officers sustained significant injuries, one being detained in hospital. No prisoner suffered more than minor abrasions or bruising, and none required hospital treatment.

Will the Minister confirm that recently poison was found near a male prisoner's cell, and that certain drinks were taken away for analysis? Is he aware that it is impossible to have integration in Northern Ireland in education, housing, social life, and, indeed, at places of employment? Does he agree that it is impossible, too, to have integration in prisons which house violent men convicted of very serious crimes and men on remand charged with very serious crimes?

Segregation in the prison at Belfast took place only in 1972. We are ending that. The prisoners should realise that it is in their own interests, and for their own safety whilst they are in prison, that they observe prison rules and refrain from violence to other prisoners and to my staff.

Does the hon. Member recognise that while my colleagues and I have steadily supported the abolition of "special category" the Secretary of State retains responsibility for the personal safety and welfare of persons confined in Her Majesty's prisons, whatever methods he finds necessary to secure that safety?

I agree. This is what is happening. This is why I have to report today that the prison service and I believe that these incidents were pretty well stage-managed, judging by the size of the bruises and other injuries. My prison staff are doing all that can be expected of them. Three of them were injured in these disturbances. Two are still off sick.

asked the Prime Minister when he next expects to meet the TUC.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply that I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Ovenden) on 7th December.

Since the TUC and the Prime Minister have each recently entertained pillars of the Soviet establishment in the form of Mr. Shelepin and Mr. Ponomarev, would it not be useful for them to get a different point of view by entertaining Mr. Bukovsky? Will the Prime Minister now improve on the equivocal answer that he gave me on Tuesday and say clearly that he will issue an invitation to Mr. Bukovsky, who I understand is in London today, to meet him so that he can hear from him at first hand how the Soviet Union is flouting the provisions of the Helsinki Agreement?

No, Sir.

When my right hon. Friend next meets the TUC will he indicate when interest rates will be allowed to fall substantially?

I shall not be able to give such an indication. I think that it will depend on a number of matters, including the sale of gilt-edged securities and other such issues. I expect to see—I think it is generally expected—a fall in interest rates over the next 12 months.

Is the Prime Minister aware how very disappointed we are with his peremptory reply? He will be going to Belgrade in 1977 to consider what has happened under the Helsinki Agreements, and one would have thought that it would help him very much to assess what has happened if he met a person who had had experience of living in Soviet Russia during the currency of those agreements.

I understand, if the Daily Telegraph is correct, that the right hon. Lady had a rather coy meeting with Mr. Bukovsky to which no publicity was given. I suppose I am to join in this matter. I wonder whether the right hon. Lady, when she goes to China, will be associating with the sort of people whom her hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker) condemns.

Is the Prime Minister aware that that is one of the most disgraceful and undignified replies ever given by a Prime Minister in this House? It was also in certain parts silly. I must tell the Prime Minister that I did meet Mr. Bukovsky and that it was an extremely interesting meeting, certainly not "coy" as the Prime Minister suggested—which was a stupid comment to make. I repeat that it was an extremely interesting meet ing. The Prime Minister would do well to see and hear first hand evidence of fact. I little thought that I would ever hear a Prime Minister uphold the censorship of the Press, because that is what he has done.

The right hon. Lady is wrong on all counts. I have no intention of pursuing publicity by seeing people if there is no need to do so. I am quite clear about and well aware of the position in the Soviet Union. I have probably done a little more than has the right hon. Lady to obtain the release of people from the Soviet Union. These matters are not always achieved—the right hon. Lady may one day find this out, although I am beginning to doubt it—by public gestures. They are best achieved privately, and there have been a number of illustrations of that fact.

Is the Prime Minister aware that some of us are genuinely puzzled by his tone in answering questions on these matters affecting the Soviet Union? Is he further aware that Mr. Bukovsky earlier today made to me the significant point that human rights in the Soviet Union do not involve just the occasional writer or dissident, or scientist, or musician, but affect the Soviet worker? Therefore, is there not a real rôle that the TUC could play in this regard, and could not the Prime Minister help in persuading it to do so?

That matter is not in issue, nor does it arise from the supplementary question that I was asked. I was asked whether I intended to see Mr. Bukovsky, and I replied on that point. I do not intend to see Mr. Bukovsky, although if the opportunity arose and it seemed purposeful, I would do so. But I do not have to meet Mr. Bukovsky to put my views on record. When we go to Belgrade, we shall be following up the Helsinki issues and agreements, as I have made clear in the House time after time. The Soviet Union knows where we stand on these matters. I do not need to meet any private individual to strengthen my own convictions.

asked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to the City of London.

I have at present no plans to do so.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the City, our creditors, and the country would like to know how the Prime Minister's disastrous failure as a former Chancellor of the Exchequer qualifies him to assume responsibilities over the existing discredited Chancellor of the Exchequer? As the Prime Minister, along with everybody else, has lost confidence in the present Chancellor, should the right hon. Gentleman not now appoint somebody else rather than himself to do the job?

I hesitate to say so, in light of the atmosphere this afternoon, but the hon. Gentleman should not believe all that he reads in newspaper headlines, nor should he believe all the mischief-making articles that may appear on these matters. The situation is quite clear. Thanks to the Government's measures, the IMF loan, and the safety net, the frenetic attitude over sterling is now likely to disappear. Sterling will be much more stable over the next 12 months. Therefore, I wish to focus the country's attention not on the issue of sterling, which is not a real issue at this time, but on the question of the way in which British industry is to become as productive, efficient and export-minded as possible. To that end I have been invited to take the chair at the next NEDC meeting, and I shall do so. I intend to make a number of industrial visits, and I shall visit factories that are doing well in the export drive. The responsibility of Ministers is in no way altered or diminished, but I intend to try to focus attention on this real issue so that we may overcome inflation and unemployment. That is the story, and that is what it is all about.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the real world—a world which Opposition Members do not inhabit—his reply will be widely welcomed? Will he say what impact the repayment of the special deposits announced at lunchtime will have on the rates of interest paid by industrialists on their investments and on domestic interest rates paid by those who have mortgages?

The adjustment made today is a technical one. It is no particular indication of the future level of interest rates. I can only repeat what I said earlier, namely, that I expect to see this declining over the next 12 months. Mortgage interest rates would benefit from such a decline.

Will the Prime Minister go to the City at the earliest opportunity and call at the offices of The Times, and there give a less equivocal statement in support of a free Press than he gave in the House a few moments ago? Does he not realise that a free Press implies freedom to print inaccuracies and to enable people to reply to them?

What I realise is that the Opposition are trying to pursue a party point.

asked the Prime Minister whether the public speech on the democratic process made by the Secretary of State for Energy on 10th December at Bristol University represents Government policy.

I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Latham) on 11th January.

Will the Prime Minister accept that the Secretary of State for Energy has defended the place of Marxists in the Labour Party, while the Prime Minister has on several occasions attacked extremist infiltrators in the Government party? Who are these infiltrators if they are not Marxists? Indeed, what are they?

The hon. Gentleman obviously did not hear the answer that I gave a little earlier. I shall repeat it. My right hon. Friend's speech raised no issues of Government policy.

Can my right hon. Friend enlighten me to what aspect of Marx Opposition Members object? Is it the Right-wing philosophy of the German Hegel, the French sociology of Saint-Simon, or the labour of value theory of the British Adam Smith and Riccardo—both classic capitalist economists?

I thought that the Opposition were thinking of a combination of Harpo and Groucho Marx.