asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she plans to meet representatives of the correspondence colleges.

My right hon. Friend has at present no plans to do so.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that is a disappointing reply? Will he reconsider the decision and agree to meet the representatives of the correspondence colleges? Does he agree that at a time of substantial cut-backs in education that education by correspondence is a cheap and effective manner of education?

My right hon. Friend and I will willingly see representatives of the correspondence colleges, but we have had no request from them to see us. I think that the last occasion when they met an Education Minister was in 1975. I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about the value of correspondence courses, especially in times of financial constraint.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what assistance she is giving to Derbyshire County Council for its school replacement programme, such as the Longwood Primary School, Pinxton.

The replacement of Longwood Primary School was not in Derbyshire's list of projects for 1976–77 or 1977–78, and so was not directly affected by the recent reductions in lump sums. Nevertheless, Derbyshire's allocation was reduced by £372,000.

Does my hon. Friend agree that generally speaking cuts in public expenditure have an effect on working-class education and that in Derbyshire they have particularly affected the programme of replacement of school buildings, especially at Pinxton? Does she also agree that it is wrong to penalise working-class children and their parents by not providing them with a decent school, which they are endeavouring to get at Pinxton, when the Government are spending thousands of millions of pounds on weapons of destruction? Will my hon. Friend assist one of the few Labour groups in a county council to have a massive replacement programme in the forthcoming years?

I share much of the concern that my hon. Friend has expressed, in particular the need to improve and replace old schools. As my hon. Friend knows, we are all only too well aware of the effect that public expenditure cuts have in these areas. However, as I have already said to him, it is a matter for local authorities to which of the schools in need of help they decide to give priority. Unfortunately, the school that my hon. Friend is describing is not one of the priorities for the Derbyshire County Council.

It will be.

What contact is my hon. Friend having with a local education authority a little further north, in Calder-dale, West Yorkshire, where the local education authority has recently announced that it is to reintroduce the 11-plus examination into areas where it was abandoned years ago—

Order. With every respect to the hon. Member, we could go round the United Kingdom.

As my hon. Friend knows, we have been having talks with Calderdale on these and other matters and we hope to reach a satisfactory conclusion with those concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a further statement on her policies towards teacher retraining courses in shortage and specialist subjects.

One retraining course in craft, design and technology has already started and at least one other college is considering the possibility of starting a course at Easter, but I expect most of the courses to start next September. My Department will shortly be approaching selected institutions about the provision of similar one-year courses for mathematics teaching.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that there is great concern about this matter? There are many spare places and many unemployed newly qualified teachers yet there are only 10 pilot schemes supposedly considering the possibility of running courses. When are we to get some action? At least two years have gone by in the running down of places. How will students manage to afford to take these courses if they have already been on a mandatory grant?

There is nothing new about these shortages. They have been with us for a very long time. The previous Conservative Government never took any action in respect of these shortages. The hon. Gentleman complained when we took no action, but now complains when there is at least action.

Is there not a case for looking at some of the colleges threatened with closure to ascertain whether they could accommodate these courses? Is it not the position that religious education is being treated as one of the shortage subjects? Is the right hon. Lady aware that St. Mary's, Newcastle is an appropriate place at which such courses could be put on?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are plenty of places available in existing colleges not threatened with closure for the courses that we have in mind. Religious education is not one of the three subjects that I have specifically mentioned, but we are aware of some of the problems in that area.

Will my right hon. Friend consider the specialist subject of health education both in relation to retraining and training courses? Is she aware that in the prevention of illness rather than in the curing of it this sector of teacher training colleges is one of the most important and one of the most neglected in the past 10 years?

I am well aware of my hon. Friend's concern. It does not count as a shortage subject, because health education workers go through the entire school curriculum, as I think he will agree.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that there is a great shortage of teachers who are qualified in specialist and technical subjects? Will she reconsider her decision to close the Shoreditch College of Education at Egham, which provides many excellent courses of education for student teachers in technical and design subjects which are vital in our schools?

The Shoreditch College is one of the five colleges to be discussed between the Department and the ILEA, where 2,000 places are to be allocated. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman should not at this stage jump to conclusions.

Will the right hon. Lady consider appointing an inquiry to report within a limited time on the grave shortage of teachers in religious education? Will she consider including in the suggested new form of school certificate not only English and mathematics but religious education?

On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, so far as I am aware an element of religious education is already required in schools by the 1944 Act. I think I am right in saying that it is the only subject so required. The problem is that many of those who teach religious education are unqualified for the subject and have not themselves studied in that subject. I shall consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion, but it is not within the same sphere as those areas in which there is overall shortage.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations she has received about the future of teachers training in Cornwall; and if she will make a statement.

The hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Mudd) has forwarded representations that he has received about the proposal to cease initial teacher training at Camborne. Discussions between the authority and my Department will be held shortly.

Does the Minister recognise that while there is no point in training teachers for posts that the Government or the IMF will not make available there will continue to be a need for in-service training? If the Camborne teacher training outpost is closed, Cornish teachers will have to go out of Cornwall to receive their in-service training. Will the Minister take steps to ensure that Cornish teachers receive their in-service training in Cornwall?

I would inform the House and the hon. Gentleman that neither the Government nor the IMF are responsible for the decline in the birthrate—and that is what is causing the closure of many of these teacher training colleges. With regard to Camborne, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it will still be available for in-service teacher training in Cornwall, although it will be subject to the agreement of the local authority and the College of St. Mark and St. John, Plymouth.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she is satisfied with the future provision for initial teacher training in Hampshire and the Isle of Wight.

The future provision has not yet been decided, but my right hon. Friend's proposals are designed to make the best possible provision for this and other areas.

Is the Minister aware that, unlike other parts of the country, the Isle of Wight has an increasing school population? I do not claim any responsibility for that. Is he also aware that the phasing out, as planned, of Portsmouth Polytechnic will make it extremely difficult for those in my constituency who wish to undertake teacher training, or in-service training, to get into Southampton or Winchester, because the boat services virtually cease at 7 p.m. in the winter months and people have to go around the island, which is difficult and expensive?

On the first point made by the hon. Member, I would point out that his constituency is in many ways unique in the United Kingdom. We shall take into account what he said, but provision will be made even if the proposals for the closure of Portsmouth Polytechnic go ahead. There is provision for about 2,000 teacher training places in 1981 at other institutions that are accessible, at Southampton, Winchester, Chichester and Bognor Regis.

I hope that the Minister will not mislead the House as to who is responsible for changing the policy on teacher training. Will he honestly admit that the Shadow Opposition spokesman on Education in 1973 moved a censure motion on the Conservative party for reducing the number of places? At the same time, in conjunction with the National Union of Teachers, the Labour Party demanded that the cuts should be restored and that pupil-teacher ratios should be improved.

The birth-rate has been declining since 1965. I would be surprised if that censure motion in 1973 had been won. Oppositions put down censure motions but responsible Governments carry out their policies, as our Government have done.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when she plans to take action in the light of the Bullock Report on literacy "A Language for Life".

The recommendations of the Bullock Report were mainly directed towards local authorities and teachers, but my Department and Her Majesty's Inspectorate, have been able to take action on a number of aspects. In particular, the Department has allocated resources to the adult literacy campaign; the Assessment of Performance Unit has used the report as a starting point in its approach to a new monitoring system; and Her Majesty's inspectors have held many conferences and courses on matters covered by the report.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that part of the problem of unemployment lies in the fact that on the one hand there is a shortage of skilled workers and, on the other, there are reports from employers at the standard of literacy among both adults and school leavers? How far is the Secretary of State planning to extend this work on literacy?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the Bullock Report does not subscribe to the view that standards of literacy have fallen over the last 10 years; on the contrary, it indicates that there is no evidence for that proposition. Nevertheless, it is my Department's responsibility to do all that it can to raise the standards of literacy and numeracy, because the requirements placed on school leavers at present are greater than they ever were.

In view of the fact that on Thursday the House is to debate an Opposition motion with an eye to a drastic lowering of standards will the right hon. Lady reiterate—and I gave evidence to the Bullock Committee on this matter—that standards of reading have not fallen—[HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] I note the part of the House from which that cry comes. Will my right hon. Friend emphasise the fact that standards are rising, although there are pockets of resistance—and a major pocket of resistance comes from the Opposition Benches—that teachers are doing a good job, and that our children are learning more than ever?

My hon. Friend is right to point to what in some quarters of the House is a desire to show that standards are falling even when the evidence does not support that view. I find that attitude unhelpful in solving our education problems. One of the Opposition's most experienced spokesmen in education, the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee), recently said that the evidence does not show that standards in education have fallen.

Does the right hon. Lady realise that Her Majesty's Government have established some kind of record for delay in this respect, since Lord Bullock has had time to write and publish a second report before the House has had time to debate the first one? If she is serious about raising standards, will she give the House an opportunity to debate the Bullock Report, in Government time, without further delay?

I shall convey those views to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, but I am sure that on Thursday Opposition Members will have every opportunity to deploy their views.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is her latest estimate of the percentage of students who do not receive the assessed parental contribution; and what she estimates the shortfall in such contributions to be in money terms both in total and as an average per student.

According to a sample survey undertaken for my Department in 1974–75, about a half of all students with mandatory awards in Great Britain received less than the full value of their award because parents did not pay all of the assessed contribution. The total shortfall was about £16 million, or £90 per student underpaid. I would remind parents of the need to pay the contribution in full.

Does the Minister agree that those figures confirm that the scheme is in danger of becoming a shambles and is unfair to students and to parents? Since there is agreement in principle between both sides of the House on the abolition of these contributions, and since middle income groups need some consideration in present circumstances, will she try to persuade her right hon. and hon. Friends to do something about this scheme soon?

As child tax allowances are progressively phased out, parental contributions will be reduced correspondingly. If we were to phase out the scheme or abolish it at present, it could cost, in public expenditure terms, £120 million; or, if child tax allowances were abolished at the same time, the estimated cost would be £55 million on top of present public expenditure requirements.

Will my hon. Friend, in the course of the present triennial review—which I hope will reach a conclusion earlier than did some of its predecessors—re-examine some of the proposals for beginning to phase out parental contributions, such as reducing the age of dependence, which could encourage work experience and make a contribution to bridging the gap between education and industry?

My hon. Friend will know that the negotiations on the triennial review are in progress, and among the various suggestions we are examining the one that he mentioned.

Is the Minister aware that recent surveys by students indicate that 73 per cent. of students do not have the full grant made up by their parents? Is he aware of the deep resentment among parents and students on this aspect, following the reduction in the age of majority to 18? Does he agree that when circumstances are easier we should move to phase out parental contributions, bearing in mind that where the contribution is not paid it is the student rather than the family who suffers?

I agree that we must examine that matter. Both sides of the House are united on that point. All I was saying was that at a time when we are looking for financial restraints on public expenditure, now and the immediate future is not the time to tackle the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will be prepared to receive representations on the Consultation Document on Economies in the School Meals Service from bodies other than those to whom it has been circulated and suggestions other than those contained in the document itself.

Yes, Sir. Publicity for the document was arranged with this in mind. Copies are available, and any suggestions will be considered.

Is the hon. Lady aware that there is considerable disbelief that some of the savings she seeks will be achieved through the proposals set out in the consultation document? Is it not unfair that many local education authori- ties are being forced to make damaging decisions on teaching, which often end in the closure of schools and reductions in the number of teaching posts? Could this not be avoided by making greater savings in terms of school meals through reasonable options, and will she reconsider giving local authorites the direction to take responsible action?

I do not agree that there is no room for making the economies we have suggested, otherwise we would not have suggested them. Furthermore, I do not understand what the hon. Gentleman means by "reasonable options", since his local education authority wishes to cease providing school meals. I should like more detail about what he means by "reasonable options" before I agree with his proposition.

Is the Minister aware that a significant number of teachers are having free lunches every day and making no contribution towards the cost of them? If some information was presented to them about this, I am sure that most teachers would wish to contribute at least the economic cost of the meal. Will the Minister take steps to ensure that the unions bring this about?

We have never sought to question the understanding that teachers who are doing supervisory jobs should get free school meals, but I am a little surprised to hear from the hon. Gentleman that some are getting more than one. We are undoubtedly concerned about the fact that at the moment free school meals provided for children cost less than half as much as free school meals provided for adults. That is certainly one of the matters where we feel it may be possible to make some savings.

Does my hon. Friend not accept that the free school meal service, and the provision of school meals, is an important provision in education and that it is impossible to teach children and make them understand and study if they are hungry while in school?

I do accept that. It is one of the reasons why we have continued to defend the school meal service as such.

Is the Minister aware that since school meal supervision became voluntary in 1968 in inner city areas it is only because of large free school meals that staff have actually supervised during school dinner? If these meals are withdrawn while school meals are continued, and if the staff ceases to do this voluntarily, we shall have disorder in these schools in the centre of our cities during the lunch period.

It is not our intention at all to question the basic part of the 1968 agreement, which is that people doing duties should be entitled to free meals. That has never been suggested and, indeed, we should oppose such a withdrawal. However, there is scope in some areas—although perhaps not in the inner-city areas to which the hon. Gentleman referred—for different arrangements. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is aware of the Mayfield scheme, which works on the basis of continuing teacher supervision but tries to do it in a more flexible way. This is perhaps something that schools might be able to study and learn from.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is her latest estimate of the cost of subsidising school meals during the years ending 5th April 1977 and 5th April 1978.

The latest estimate, at estimated outturn prices, for the current financial year is £427 million. The estimate for 1977–78 will be published shortly in the public expenditure White Paper.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that, in deciding priorities for public expenditure, school meals at present receive a disproportionate amount of Government subsidy? Is she further aware that many parents would think it appropriate that they should increase the amount that they pay each day for their children if that meant safeguarding standards in our schools?

I am aware that there are those who feel that too much of our public expenditure goes on subsidising school meals. There is room for disagreement about where in the education service we should seek to help people who have financial problems. There are many other areas where we can see the need for help to be given. Although we hope to reduce the level of subsidy, it does not seem right or sensible at this time to make the kind of sweeping cuts in the subsidy on school meals suggested by the hon. Gentleman. I recognise that parents are concerned about education standards but, as one of my hon. Friends said, it is hard to teach a child who is too hungry to concentrate.

Does the Minister agree that school meals form a very important social service and that any subsidy to school meals helps that part of the community which is in dire need? Will she seriously consider taking the school meals subsidy completely out of education costs? This is not directly educational; it is a social service, which is separate from education.

There are a great number of measures of this kind that have attractions for Ministers in my Department, but simply to put the burden of the school meal subsidy on to a different Department would not solve the overall problem of public expenditure.

Is the Minister aware that it is an insult to the parents of this country to suggest that none of us feed our children properly? Would it not be better, on educational grounds, to spend the money that goes to the subsidy on extra teachers? If the subsidy for school meals is regarded as help given to families, would it not be better to give an increased child benefit rather than increase the subsidy?

We are not increasing the subsidy; we propose to reduce it. However, we do not believe that we can reduce it more than we propose at present. I am at a loss to understand the hon. Members' comments about the subsidy being an insult to parents and a suggestion that they cannot feed their children. We are not trading in insults or compliments. The fact remains that many people in this country have levels of income that are such that they find it difficult to feed their children adequately. These people are assisted by the provision of good school meals, and we do not wish to see that situation changed.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether the extension of educational provision for the 16 to 19-year-olds remains a major priority in her policies.

Yes, to the fullest extent possible within existing resources. I attach particular importance to improving opportunities for those who leave school at 16 and who receive little or no further education or training thereafter.

I applaud the initiatives that have already been taken, but what is my right hon. Friend doing to protect the further education sector which provides the majority of courses for this group of students in circumstances where local authorities are clearly looking at their education budgets with aggressive scrutiny?

The position is that in 1975 there was a 20 per cent. increase in the number of students in further education courses. We expect a further increase of 10 per cent. this year. We have reached agreement with the Secretary of State for Social Services with regard to up to three-day courses being accepted while supplementary benefit is still payable. This means that there will be additional students at many of the FE colleges and we have made it clear that we shall meet from other parts of the education budget the additional resource costs involved, which will amount to £35 million.

Will the right hon. Lady say whether the Government feel that the age at which young people can go on sponsored training schemes should be lowered from 19 to 16?

I should be happy to consider that. It is not a point that I have considered in the last few days.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that there is adequate cooperation between sixth forms in the comprehensive schools and the FE colleges to ensure that scarce teacher manpower, such as in mathematics and science, is properly deployed for this age group?

Perhaps I can first make an additional remark about training centres. They are, of course, not a matter for my Department, and the three-year gap is an element of the training centres of the Training Services Agency which is answerable to the Department of Employment. I very much agree with my hon. Friend and with what is implicit in his question. There is a great deal of parallel provision between sixth forms and the FE colleges for the 16 to 19 group, often in the same subjects. This is one of the areas that we are proposing to discuss in detail with the education authorities and with teacher organisations, because it is one area where undoubtedly some economies can be made without any suffering whatever to educational standards.

When were the educational maintenance allowances for this group last raised?

I would need notice of that question, but they are discretionary, and it depends upon each individual local authority. Some do raise the educational maintenance allowance in line with inflation, and some pay less. Although a national scale is suggested, it is not a mandatory scale.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science why she considers that Padgate College of Further Education meets the criteria on which her proposals for the closure of teacher training colleges are based.

The criteria which my right hon. Friend has published relate to the restructuring of the teacher training system as a whole and not to the closure of particular colleges. Her proposals for the North West Region are designed to concentrate provision in those institutions which together seem best able to meet the needs of the region in the 1980s.

I appreciate the need for a reduction in the number of places for teacher training, but does the Minister agree that this proposal has caused genuine concern about the whole future of a college of education in an area which contains two new towns? Before coming to a decision, will he ask his right hon. Friend to undertake to see a deputation—I understand that she has been asked to see it—from the Cheshire County Council?

On the second point, I do not know whether my right hon. Friend will see the deputation, but certainly I shall be in a position to see it, and will do so. On the first point, there is no doubt that Padgate is a good college, but in many areas of the country good colleges like that(because of a reduction in numbers, find themselves on the proposed closure list.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the proposals for the system as a whole and the proposals for particular colleges are quite inextricable and that it is important to try to distinguish them? Will my hon. Friend have another look at the proposals for the Greater London area and try to arrange for the particular proposals—

Order. I have already pulled up another hon. Member for going around the United Kingdom when the Question is related to one part of the United Kingdom. We must try to keep some order.

Will my hon. Friend have another look at the criteria mentioned in the Question and make sure that they are fairly applied over the whole of the United Kingdom, including Greater London?

I hope, Mr. Speaker, that it will be in order if I say that with regard to Padgate and London we have tried to apply the criteria fairly throughout the entire United Kingdom. As my hon. Friend is aware, the paper presented to the advisory committee is available in the Library, and I fear that whichever colleges are on the proposed list the local authority and Members of Parliament concerned inevitably want to come and see either my right hon. Friend or myself. We are endeavouring to see each and every one of them.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what provision her Department is making in the area of special education.

The provision education authorities as part of their of special education is a matter for local general responsibility for securing educational facilities to meet the needs of their areas. My Department exercises statutory, financial and administrative controls and gives guidance on policy, but makes no direct provision.

Is the Secretary of State aware that special education covers both the 5 per cent. with special disabilities and the 5 per cent. with special abilities? Is she satisfied that the great debate or the local authorities will pay sufficient attention to these groups and especially to those with special abilities?

It will be open to those present to raise the matter, but it is not one of the subjects down for discussion in the great debate.

Will my right hon. Friend look particularly at the problem of children with specific reading disabilities? Will she consider the successful scheme that has been operated in some local education authority areas, of classroom withdrawal for those children who need a one-to-one ratio if they are to be taught to read?

Yes. Some work on dyslexia is being undertaken by individual local education authorities and by general research supported by my Department. I am aware that this disability must be treated with special teaching concentration.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what plans she has to deal with the problems involved in the relationship between education and industry.

I hope to announce proposals relating to the schools when the extensive consultations now in progress are complete. I am also considering how the many existing links between industry and higher and further education might be strengthened but intend to have discussions with others concerned before reaching conclusions.

I welcome that promise of a policy, if not its fulfilment. Does the Secretary of State recognise that a career in industry for many young people will become attractive again only if they can see some real prospect of avoiding the crushing tax burden that is put upon them by the Government? Does she also recognise that it is vital to give adequate teaching in mathematics and technical subjects that will better equip young people to enter industry, where the demands of technology mean that they will require those skills in order to succeed?

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and not for me. However, I should point out that the Opposition consistently argue for individual increases in public expenditure as well as strongly favouring general cuts.

Will my right hon. Friend constantly bear in mind that the purpose of education is not simply to provide a service to industry?

My right hon. Friend constantly bears that in mind and is very much against the idea that education is concerned with producing vocational pegs to go into square holes. I am also very much aware that, at a time when industrial democracy may be the next horizon of democracy in this country, it would be irresponsible of the schools not to familiarise young people with the pattern of industry.

What consultation has the Secretary of State had with the Consultative Council of Professional Management Organisations or with individual management institutes, which would be delighted to help her to save money by co-operating in her general scheme?

My Department is generally in touch with a number of professional institutes, the CBI, chambers of commerce, and so forth. Many of them will be represented at the debates which are shortly to take place.

Will my right hon. Friend pay particular attention to the need to improve the educational standards of managers? Is she aware that, for example, less than one-third of managers in British manufacturing industry are educated up to university or equivalent standard?

For reasons which others of my hon. Friends have advanced, I do not think that management education is a suitable subject for schools. I am aware that management education at the higher education level is important. Consideration is being given to how we can direct more of it to the problems of management in industry.

Is the Secretary of State aware that a principal reason why there are difficulties in getting young people to go into industry is that a considerable section of the Labour Party spends its whole time propagating the gospel that the purpose of industry is to exploit those who work in it?

The hon. Gentleman can no doubt pursue that argument with others. Industry, whether in public or private hands, is the source of the basic wealth of this country, and that aspect needs to be got across in education.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations she has received to date following her statement on her plans to close teacher training colleges.

Representations received so far have urged the retention of teacher training at about 23 of the 28 centres at which discontinuance is proposed, and have urged that there should be no change at three others where reductions are proposed.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he give the House an assurance that when the application of the criteria is examined in the Department due note will be taken of the representations made on behalf of the North Worcestershire College that in-service training will not be assessed solely on the basis of full-time full-year or full-term teachers' courses?

Yes. The hon. Gentleman led a delegation, which I saw last Tuesday. It was a useful meeting. All the points that were then made will be borne in mind, including the point made by the hon. Gentleman today.

Does my hon. Friend get the impression that the Opposition establish good criteria for the continuation of virtually all colleges of education while at the same time denying the resources to maintain them?

I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. We must be fair. I can understand any hon. Member making representations about his constituency. That is one of the basic jobs of any hon. Member, of any party. But it is a great pity for thousands of unemployed teachers that some of these decisions were not taken before 1974, when they ought to have been taken.

I accept fully what the Minister said about particular representations. Will he have regard to religious training in such colleges as are proposed to be closed? Will he take full account of the great distress that has been engendered by the proposed closure of St. Mary's College, Newcastle upon Tyne, which is the only Roman Catholic training college in the North-East of England? Will he bear that in mind with regard to the representations made to him?

I shall certainly bear that matter in mind. With regard to both Church of England and Roman Catholic voluntary religious colleges, we try to ensure that the reduction in numbers is proportionate to the reduction in numbers in maintained colleges. That implies certain colleges, including the college in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, being on the proposed closure list. However, I shall listen to representations about that college and, indeed, other colleges, as I have promised the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made in the consultations with local authorities concerning the system of providing financial assistance towards the cost of children travelling to school.

My right hon. Friend is now exploring with the local authority associations the nature and extent of the administrative difficulties they consider would arise from the introduction of new school transport arrangements, I cannot say yet when these consultations will be completed.

Does the Minister agree that the present situation is totally absurd? As discussions have been going on for a considerable time, can she give any indication when the deadlock will be broken?

I agree with my hon. Friend that the present situation is absurd and creates great difficulties for many families. In proceeding with these new consultations, it is our hope that we shall get some agreement about changes in the not-too-distant future. I cannot be more specific, because local authorities see considerable difficulties.

Does the Minister agree that it is now many years since the working party set up by the present Leader of the Opposition reported, and during this period the ridiculous situation has continued whereby an arbitrary line drawn on a map means that of the children using the same bus from the same bus stop some are subsidised and others are not? Is it not time that a decision was taken on this issue, which is causing great financial hardship to families with three or four children at school?

My colleagues and I are very strongly inclined to agree with many of the things that the hon. Member said, but it is not for us to change the policy; it is a matter for the local authorities and the transport undertakings. There has been considerable resistance, particularly from the local authorities, to proposals for change. There has also been a great deal of resistance from those who benefit from the free arrangements at present. We are doing our best in this matter, but it is not easy.

Is it not clear that the flat rate scheme is much fairer, as it embraces those who are just within the statutory limits? At present these people have great difficulties in getting their children to school.

Yes, the flat rate system is simpler and fairer in that sense. With the introduction of a new system, we would be able to make adjustments for people with limited means, which we cannot do under the present system. I accept the points made by the hon. Member, but he must realise that it is a matter of making progress against considerable resistance. We are doing our best.