asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken, or proposes to take, to alleviate the housing position in those parts of Wales where there is a substantial waiting list for local authority housing, and where there is an increasing number of second homes that are empty for large parts of the year.

It is for the local authority concerned to take such steps as it may consider appropriate in these circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that in my area, the Arfon Borough Council area and the Dwyfor District Council area, a recent study has shown that there are more second homes than there are people on the housing waiting list, even though the waiting list for council housing is larger than the average in Wales? In those circumstances, will he listen to representations from these councils for specific and deliberate aid to try to allow them to buy more second homes when they come on to the market in order to meet the needs of the long waiting list for council housing?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that the measures that the Government have already taken, including withdrawing financial assistance towards second homes from public funds, the abolition of tax relief on second home mortgages and the abolition of improvement grants for second homes, have removed the worst of these features. We are always prepared to listen to problems. We have made a block allocation this time. It must be for councils to decide their own priorities within that block grant.

Will my hon. Friend make more funds available not only for the purchase by local authorities of second homes but for the purchase of any private homes when they come on to the market, to prevent them from becoming second homes?

I cannot comment on a hypothetical situation. If my hon. Friend has details of particular cases, I shall be glad to examine them.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in order to alleviate the demand for accommodation, particularly in cities, there is a crying need for reform in the existing land laws?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that these matters are now under review.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to visit Bronglais Hospital, Aberystwyth.

I was at Bronglais last Friday.

Is the Minister aware, as it was confirmed in writing to me some time ago, that as he has no plans to build the second phase at Bronglais Hospital many members of the staff and people in Mid-Wales in particular are worried about the future of this hospital? Is he aware that many believe that small cottage hospitals in Mid-Wales may be closed and that he ought not to concentrate all efforts on Carmarthen, Wrexham and elsewhere in the area?

Let me dispel that fear. In the decades ahead there will be a place in the strategy for Wales for the community hospital or cottage hospital. At Bronglais Hospital ideally there should be a phase two, but we are in difficult financial times and the advice that the area health authority gives is that it has a different order of priorities.

As the Dyfed Area Health Authority receives almost the smallest allocation of resources per head of population in the United Kingdom, will the Under-Secretary examine urgently ways of correcting this situation so that the area health authority can meet the needs of the people that it serves?

The health authorities in Wales are on the point of reallocating their recources, in discussion with the Department and myself, and in the financial year ahead there may well be some changes. However, I would not want the hon. Gentleman to give the impression to the House or to Dyfed or anywhere else in Wales that Dyfed was receiving anything less than its fair share.

As Bronglais is one of the hospitals which serves the population in the southern part of Merioneth, may I congratulate the Secretary of State on his decision to invest more capital resources in the Wrexham area, which also serves Merioneth? In the future development of district general hospitals, will he ensure that the Welsh Office pays due regard to the effect of the centralisation of services on rural areas and that the ambulance service which serves those areas is developed and controlled locally rather than centralised in its communication network?

The hon. Gentleman might wish to write to me giving details of his views on the ambulance service.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether there has been any change in his policy as regards receiving deputations from local authorities in Wales.

No. Subject to limitations of time and parliamentary pressure we are always ready to receive deputations from local authorities, provided they seem likely to serve a useful purpose.

Does the Minister recall the refusal of his Department to receive a deputation from the Delyn Borough Council to make representations on the consequences of recent flooding? Does he further recall the refusal of his right hon. and learned Friend to receive a deputation from Rhuddlan Borough Council in order to consult him on the financing of essential investment policy in the Rhyl tourist industry? Does he not think that these repeated refusals represent a regrettable departure from the precedent set by previous distinguished holders of his right hon. and learned Friend's office and that they give an impression of being uncaring, bureaucratic and remote?

On the latter subject, the hon. Member knows that I spoke to him and met him to discuss the financing of the Rhyl leisure centre and that the council was given full advice from the Welsh Office before making its decision to proceed in the way in which it wanted with this development. As for the refusal to see Delyn Borough Council about aid towards flooding on Deeside, my right hon. and learned Friend told the council that the responsibility for preparing remedial works lay with it and that the Minister responsible for approving and grant-aiding such schemes was the Minister of Agriculture. Therefore, no useful purpose would be served by meeting such a deputation, although officials from my office were prepared at all times to give the necessary advice.

In view of the Secretary of State's responsibility for the Welsh National Water Development Authority, which carries out the drainage schemes that are necessary when flooding occurs, surely he has a responsibility here.

No, it is not fair to say that my right hon. and learned Friend is responsible for the details of these schemes, because the two schemes are not exactly similar. The flooding at Llandudno Junction arose from a main river and was the direct responsibility of the Welsh National Water Development Authority. It is because of that responsibility that the meeting was called at which the scheme has now been developed and drawn up.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will visit the Llandudno-Conway area.

I shall be visiting Llandudno towards the end of May.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the unemployment of young people is a grave problem in that area and that there were 500 young people employed in Gwynedd last month, many of them having been without a job for a considerable time? Will he assure us that he will encourage all the authorities concerned to take every possible step to ensure that the work experience, job creation and community industry programmes are taken full advantage of?

Certainly I would always give every encouragement to the take-up of those schemes. As regards the situation in the hon. Gentleman's own constituency, much as one deplores the levels of youth unemployment, there have been improvements. In Conway, 156 youths were unemployed on 12th August last year; the figure had fallen to 133 in January and to 115 on 10th February. The equivalent figures for Bangor were 148, 56 and 49. Of course, there is still more work to be done.

When the right hon. and learned Gentleman goes to Llandudno, will he at a particular roundabout turn left and take the A470 south through Blaenau Ffestiniog, which he last visited officially in April 1974? Going through it, will he stop and get out of his official car so as to survey the now derelict site of the Blaenau Ffestiniog 50,000 sq. ft. advance factory—

Order. I let the hon. Member get so far, but I am worried that at any moment he will be inviting the Secretary of State to Tonypandy.

Without transgressing the rules of order, I would say that the hon. Gentleman must know of the enormous efforts which have been made to get a tenant for the advance factory that he has in mind. He will also know that a substantial effort has been put into the clearing of derelict land.

In any case, whether in Llandudno or anywhere else, will my right hon. and learned Friend keep on turning left, which is always a great direction in which to travel? Will he be going to Llandudno to attend the annual conference of the Labour Party in Wales? If so, is he aware that several motions have been tabled calling for the restoration of those cuts in public expenditure which the Government have already felt obliged to implement? Would that not be a lesson for the hon. Member for Conway (Mr. Roberts), who makes a plea about unemployment and simultaneously favours a policy that would increase it?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I hope to attend the Labour Party conference in Llandudno. I reiterate and endorse what my hon. Friend has said, that if the Conservative Party were in power—which Heaven forbid—there would be massive cuts in public and other expenditure in Wales, and much more unemployment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has initiated any future plans to simplify the structure of local government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any proposals for the reform of local government in Wales.

There is disquiet in Wales about the present structure of local government. I have made it clear that it will be one of the earliest tasks of the Welsh Assembly to consider the matter.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is an imperative need to create a one-tier system of local government throughout Wales to restore local ties and identities and, in the process, to save the taxpayer and the ratepayer a great deal of money?

We shall have to wait and see what emerges, but there is undoubtedly grave disquiet in Wales about the present system of local government foisted upon Wales by the Conservative Party. It is expensive, and the sooner it is examined and reformed the better.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend realise that he will be very popular in Wales if he produces plans and does not leave it to the Assembly to produce plans to create a one-tier system, and that he will be even more popular if he brings about changes simultaneous with the creation of the Assembly which would allay the fears of local government officers by allowing them to apply for the jobs needed in the Assembly?

I believe that the main hope for local government reform—there is obviously a great need to study the implication of what should be done—lies in the Welsh Assembly.

Is the Secretary of State aware that questions like this are causing grave disquiet among many people employed in local government in the Principality? They, like myself, feel that what local government needs now is a period to settle down rather than further disturbance.

That could be said to a man serving a life sentence in prison. It is true that in Wales there is disquiet and that this question is bound to be asked while we are working a system with which, on all the evidence from every side, people are more and more unhappy.

When the Secretary of State considers the reorganisation of local government, will he consider simultaneously the position of the area health authorities in Wales, which are coterminous with the local authorities and undemocratic in structure? Will he also look at ways in which both could be simultaneously reorganised?

Of course, in the Government's proposals, which we are determined to implement, that would be within the jurisdiction of the Welsh Assembly.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend recall the party putting forward proposals for an elected Council in Wales? Although he is right to say that the Conservative reorganisation of local government left much to be desired, it would be wrong to leave that as it is, and then to put another tier on top of it and ask those concerned to do the job. There is deep concern among associations of local government officers in Wales, who understand that an authority will be set up to be serviced by civil servants and that a tier of local government serviced by local government officers will be done away with.

My hon. Friend must understand by now that we were not proposing another tier on top of all the existing tiers of local government but that it was the functions of the Secretary of State and the nominated bodies that we were proposing. That is rather a different matter from the existing surplusage of tiers. The evidence has been made more and more manifest that from the point of view of local government in Wales, with or without the Assembly this will have to be tackled sooner rather than later.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the majority of Welsh people are in favour of a Welsh Parliament and a multi-purpose authority based on the old county boundaries, in order to give more support and financial help to the community councils?

I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree that what is important in local government—because services have to go on and people have to have the schools and roads and other services that they require—is not to prejudge what emerges but, rather, to get it right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give an estimate of the average domestic water rate in Wales for the next financial year.

The Welsh National Water Development Authority has fixed a water rate of £5 plus 17p in the pound of rateable value for 1977–78. The typical householder in the area with a domestic property of £120 rateable value will receive a water bill of £25·40.

Taking account of the water rates in Wales before 1973, may I ask whether it is not deplorable that the hold-up of current legislation is depriving the ratepayers of Wales of much-needed relief? Will my hon. Friend give the House some indication about what the saving would be if the Bill now before the House were to become law in the near future?

If the equalisation Bill had been implemented in April this year, it would have meant a transfer to the funds and resources of the Welsh National Water Development Authority of £3·6 million. What it really means is that the obstructive tactics of the Conservative Opposition in Committee have cost Wales £3½ million and that the average domestic water consumer's bill will be about £3·40 higher than it would otherwise have been.

Will the Minister come clean and admit that because of the delay in bringing the Bill forward the Government are equally to blame for robbing Wales of £3½ million? Since there is a 12-month delay, will the hon. Gentleman say whether the Government will give a direct Exchequer subsidy to Wales to alleviate the very high bills we have had, since the Government have already earmarked some money to go to Wales for this purpose?

The hon. Gentleman is completely mistaken. As he and the House know, it had been the Government's intention to introduce the Bill a week earlier, but the House decided, in accordance with custom, that it would adjourn its proceedings on the day the Bill was to be introduced as a mark of respect to the late Lord Avon. That was an extra delay which was out of the control of any Government. Had there been the will on the part of the Conservative Opposition, the Bill could have passed through Committee and would have been implemented this year.

Will not the Minister admit that his right hon. and learned Friend's claim in the Liverpool Daily Post to have achieved a victory in the Cabinet by having the Bill at all was failed totally by the failure of the Government to introduce the Bill for Second Reading before 24th January? Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that some of his own hon. Friends are opposed to the Bill? By pressing this point, is not the Secretary of State threatening to make himself more of a Yorick than he is?

My right hon. and learned Friend was quite correct when he said that it would have been possible to have got this piece of legislation through this House and the other place in time to be implemented this year had the Conservative Opposition been prepared to give any measure of support. I know that the hon. Gentleman voted for the Bill, but it was a typical example of trying to get the maximum political advantage out of an issue. A free vote in this Chamber, coupled with obstructionist tactics upstairs, has cost Wales dearly on this issue.

Without expressing any view, either in favour or against, about the Bill, can my hon. Friend say how much London ratepayers have contributed towards the cost of water in Wales?

The partial equalisation scheme, which this House passed by a large majority, meant exactly what it said. Any scheme of partial equalisation must mean that some will pay more and others will pay less. The burden on water consumers in Wales was unfair and could not be tolerated, and ought not to have been tolerated, by this House. As my hon. Friend knows, this meant that water charges in the Thames area would have gone up by 2p per week. That would have been a small price to have paid to iron out the injustices from which not only the people of Wales but other parts of England, like the South-West and many other areas, were also suffering.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total number of compulsory admissions under Section 29 of the Mental Health Act 1959 to major mental illness hospitals in Wales in the latest year for which figures are available.

In the year ending 31st December 1975 there were 998.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this disturbingly high number of compulsory admissions for observation under this section is substantially greater in Wales than in other parts of the United Kingdom? It is now time that the procedure for admissions for observation was removed from legislation, and this should happen in a new Mental Health Act. In the interim, and pending discussions and consultations with area health authorities in Wales, will the hon. Gentleman seek to reduce the high percentage of these compulsory admissions?

I appreciate the points that the hon. Gentleman has made. The Mental Health Act is now being actively reviewed and everyone can submit evidence. We as a Department are seeking precise details, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no complacency.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many house improvement grants he expects to be made in Wales during the present calendar year; and to what extent these grants are adjusted to take account of inflation.

Between 7,000 and 8,000. An adjustment was made in December 1974, when the eligible expense limit was increased by 60 per cent. over the limit that had previously applied. It is being kept under review.

Does the Minister agree that since 1974 costs have risen sharply and, therefore, there is a strong case for increasing the value of these improvement grants? Indeed, with the virtual cessation of local authority mortgages for older houses improvement grants become even more important, particularly in city centres and especially for younger couples.

I certainly agree that it is important to carry on this sort of improvement work. That is why we have given local authorities a block allocation this year so that they can transfer funds from building new houses to the improvement sector if they judge that this is in accordance with the needs of their localities.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the improvement grant scheme in recent years has played an important part in maintaining the housing sector? As there are now a great many construction workers who are unemployed, and as we are now getting out of our economic difficulties, may I ask my hon. Friend to introduce a scheme of public works and use the housing improvement grant as a method of employing these workers?

All I can say is that we have made our housing allocation to local authorities for next year. It must be left to them to make a decision about how they should spend it. My hon. Friend is probably aware that in September I offered local authorities in Wales some extra money for this purpose and that more than half the authorities turned it down.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the agricultural unions about the price structure for the coming year; and whether he will make a statement.

I have met representatives of the farmers' organisations in Wales in the context of this year's annual review. The conditions and prospects of the agricultural industry are set out in the White Paper "Annual Review of Agriculture"—Cmnd 6703—presented to Parliament on 12th January 1977.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is a need to remove present uncertainties as quickly as possible? Is he aware that farmers will be bitterly disappointed if there is a whittling down of what is proposed by the Commission? The present discrepancy between Irish and United Kingdom prices must be reduced. If farmers are to produce the food we need, there must be a substantial recoupment of the additional £900 million in costs that they have suffered.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Commission has pre- sented certain proposals. The first substantive discussions will take place in Brussels on 14th and 15th March. I hope to be there myself, as I was last year. There are many complex factors arising from these proposals and we must have regard to producers as well as to consumers.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many of the fears in agriculture in Wales are about the future of the marketing boards and the support system, which has operated so well for the past 25 to 40 years? Is he in a position to give an assurance to the industry in Wales that the Milk Marketing Board and other boards with statutory powers are here to stay?

I have said repeatedly that the marketing boards—in particular, the Milk Marketing Board—have successfully carried out a tremendously important job for the good order of agriculture, especially for the milk industry. We shall seek to do our utmost to ensure that we lose none of the great values and benefits of the years of work of that admirable board.

When the right hon. and learned Gentleman next meets the Community Agriculture Ministers, will he discuss with them the need for a coherent European sheepmeat policy? Does he accept that the way to achieve that would be to ensure that the markets are open, especially the French market, to producers from Wales? Will he help them to retain within the United Kingdom the present system of guaranteed prices for lamb?

The hon. Gentleman is asking for a number of different things, some of them contradictory. Certainly I am aware of the problem that arises from the attitude of the French from time to time. However, the sheep industry would not affect the green pound, to which the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) referred.

Leaving exaggeration aside, is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that there is acute concern in most parts of Wales and in parts of England about the sharply declining price of beef? Is he aware, in particular, that farmers in my constituency, which is a livestock rearing area, are worried about the future? Will he take that into account in his consultations with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food leading to the review?

I am sure that with his knowledge my right hon. Friend would not want to paint too gloomy a picture. I know that that is not his intention. As he knows, the market is traditionally sluggish after Christmas. There was an influx of Irish animals, arising partly from the long warning that was given in respect of Irish devaluation. Substantial numbers came on to the market in a very short time. There has not been the sort of market on the Continent that might have been expected. These matters are to be taken into account. My right hon. Friend will also accept that there have been high and good prices for stores throughout the winter. Some of us were rather surprised by the way in which those concerned obtained their profit last autumn.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will issue clearer guidelines to public corporations concerning the purchase of British or imported products.

:>My right hon. Friend sees no need to do so.

When the Secretary of State's advice to buy British conflicts with the financial objectives laid on public corporations, will the hon. Gentleman make it plain whether those objectives are in any way waived? Why does the Secretary of State use the term "British made" when he is unable to define what "British made" means? For example, is a British motor car more British if it is assembled in Britain by an American-owned company from components made in Europe, or if it is assembled in Europe from components made in Britain by a British-owned company?

In his customary fashion the hon. Gentleman has tabled a series of Questions on this issue which, frankly, try to cloud the whole matter in semantics. My right hon. Friend was expressing an opinion with which I wholeheartedly agree. In expressing that opinion he took account of the need for nationalised industries to do their best to see best value for money and he took account of their international obligations. The hon. Gentleman does not serve the public sector and does not serve British industry by the sort of Questions that he is tabling.

Does not my hon. Friend realise that the TUC is yet again calling on the Government to introduce selective import controls? Before the Government decide to introduce such controls, will he give preference to the policy of buying British on all occasions? In that way cannot the public corporations give an example to the rest of British industry, because the more we buy British the greater will be our employment prospects?

I take careful note of what my hon. Friend said. I recognise that there is a great deal of truth in the view of the trade union and Labour movement on this topic. If we examine the 24th Report of the Select Committee on European Secondary Legislation, ordered to be printed on 16th June last year, we see that it was then said that 95 per cent. of public purchasing in the United Kingdom was with United Kingdom industry; the average percentage for nationalised industry was higher than the figure for the public sector as a whole.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will give instructions to the Pay Research Unit to undertake an examination of the current situation relating to occupational pension schemes in the private sector in order to bring up to date information on their comparability with Civil Service pension schemes.

No, Sir. Pay research has been suspended as part of the Government's counter-inflation policy.

Is the Minister aware that the Government Actuary recently promised the General Sub-Committee of the Public Expenditure Committee that he would update the 1973 actuarial assumptions on which the 1·75 per cent. deduction from the fair comparisons between public and private sector pay is based? To complete the picture, is not another survey of this sort required? Will the Minister think again about the situation, because the results would help to allay the considerable public disquiet about inflation-proof pensions?

I understand that in the last few days the Government Actuary has submitted his views to the Select Committee on Public Expenditure. The point made on pensions was only one facet of the fair comparison exercise undertaken by the PRU. The question of pay is another facet, and the topic of fringe benefits is another. One has to examine all these facets.

Will my hon. Friend try to correct some of the misrepresentations by Opposition Members in this one-sided campaign against the Civil Service? Will he ask the PRU also to examine the perks paid to workers in private industries and compare those workers with their counterparts in the public service?

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the perks enjoyed by those in the private sector who undertake much the same jobs as civil servants. We must bear in mind the fact that those who work in the private sector enjoy such perks as very low mortgage rates, interest-free loans, and many other advantages. Those perks are not available to civil servants. We also must remember that such perks in the private sector are inflation-proof.

Does the hon. Gentleman not appreciate that there is no campaign against civil servants? Is it not important to express concern at the inflation-proofing of Civil Service pensions when, this year, price inflation looks tragically like rising to a figure of 20 per cent? Will he examine that situation?

The hon. Gentleman has questioned me on every occasion at Question Time when we have dealt with the subject of the Civil Service. I bear in mind his assurance that no campaign is intended. Pensions indexing is a fac- for that the Government have under constant review. We reviewed the matter last year and the year before that, and we shall be reviewing the indexing of pensions this year, too.

Despite the Opposition protests, is it not a fact that a campaign has been waged by the Tory and Liberal Parties against Civil Service pensions? Is it not true that the Conservative Party was responsible for introducing the inflation-proof scheme, against the wishes of the trade unions, whose members wanted pensions to be linked to increases in wages?

My hon. Friend is right. The 1 million retired public pensioners, those drawing Armed Forces pensions, the police, and members of the nursing profession, must wonder what they have done to deserve such a campaign as is being waged against them. Let me put the statistics on the record. I refer to the provisions that civil servants have forgone in terms of direct contributions for pension benefits. In the first place, in terms of comparisons we must remember the offset of Civil Service pay—

Are the Minister's answers inflation-proof?

I thought the Opposition were anxious to extend their knowledge of the factors related to Civil Service conditions and pensions. [HON. MEMBERS: "Too long".] Very well. I shall make the information available in the Official Report.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what steps he will take to implement the recommendation of the Select Committee on the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration that the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Commissioner should be widened to include personnel matters affecting civil servants.

The Government have been considering their reply to the various points made in the report of the Select Committee to which the hon. Member refers. A reply will be published shortly as a White Paper.

Does the Minister recall that he and I indulged in recent correspondence regarding one of my constituents, who feels most dissatisfied with the value of his pension following transfer from private industry to the Civil Service? Is it not wrong that the Civil Service Department acts as judge and jury in such a situation? Is it not time that the Government followed the advice of the Select Committee and allowed complaints by civil servants against the Government to be investigated by the Ombudsman, in the same way as other complaints are dealt with?

The procedures suggested by the hon. Gentleman would only increase charges of privilege in respect of civil servants. If we were to extend the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Commissioner, it would create a situation in which such an extension would not be equitable, since it would place Crown servants in a specially favourable position compared with other employees.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for increasing the effectiveness of the Select Committee system.

The way in which Select Committees operate is within the terms of reference of the present Select Committee on Procedure. I think the House should await any recommendations which the Select Committee may decide to put forward on this matter.

I thank the Minister for his reply, but is he aware that it is difficult for those of us who are trying to follow with interest the Select Committee on Procedure because proceedings are published a month late? Before the Committee reports, would the Minister give instructions, or put the notion before the Services Committee, so that we have Select Committees' proceedings published in Hansard exactly as Standing Committee proceedings are published?

Printing problems would arise in that respect. I am sorry if there has been any inconvenience to the House because of the gap in time between the proceedings of the Committee and the publication of the reports, and I shall see what can be done.

asked the Lord President of the Council what consideration he has given to the practical problems involved in making arrangements for Scottish and Welsh people not currently on an electoral register in Scotland or Wales but on the register elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but enjoying Scottish or Welsh nationality by birth or parentage, being enabled to vote in the devolution referenda.

I have nothing to add to what I said during Committee stage of the Scotland and Wales Bill on 10th February.

In the new circumstances prevailing since the Question was tabled, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that one way in which it would be possible to overcome the opposition to devolution from many English Members of Parliament would be to assure them that the Government were taking steps to make available the known views of the people of Scotland and Wales? In view of the danger of the Scottish people coming to believe that it is Members of Parliament from England who are preventing their obtaining any measure of devolution, will the hon. Gentleman say that it is not beyond the wit of the Government to advise a form of referendum before legislation is introduced, and, if necessary, to make it a referendum which can be confirmed by a further referendum after legislation has been put through this House?

That would require to be considered very carefully. We do not rule out any proposition entirely. But, as my right hon. Friend the Lord President indicated last Thursday, the Government have serious reservations about the proposition to have an immediate referendum. It would require separate legislation and, inevitably, the question or questions would be imprecise—a feature which would not apply to the referendum which we propose.

Although I have some doubts about the proposal in this Question, will the Government bear in mind if they come to a referendum that those people who normally vote in a General Election will expect to vote—that is to say, those islanders in my constituency who normally vote by a postal vote will expect to vote, and Service personnel will certainly expect to vote? Will the Government give attention to that situation so that these people can vote?

I thought that we had indicated in Committee that a special effort was being made to incorporate Service voters, and, of course, postal voters would have to be taken into account as well. To have any value, any proposition would have to have the largest possible number of people participating.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many people realise the strong reservations that the Government must have about producing a speedy referendum? But the problem of impreciseness does not arise if the Bill is put in the form of a White Paper. As to timing, it is largely a matter for the Government to decide whether to have a Bill to permit a referendum or no Bill at all.

With respect, I disagree with my hon. Friend that the problem of impreciseness can somehow be avoided by producing a White Paper. The problem arises about what the various solutions that will be canvassed by people in a referendum mean in practice and what the House would do with them once the results had been obtained.

asked the Lord President of the Council if the Services Committee has yet completed its inquiries into the activities of International News Services in relation to certain hon. Members.

The activities of International News Service were among the matters considered by the Committee when it examined the rules regarding the use of House facilities by strangers. I refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by Mr. Speaker on 2nd December last on the advice of the Committee.

In view of the most serious charges which have been made against this company, including the harassment of Members and the exertion of undue pressure on Members, will my right hon. Friend undertake that the Committee will conduct its inquiry extensively and with a sense of urgency? Because of the concern which exists among many Members about the activities of commercial lobbyists in this House, will my right hon. Friend consider establishing a register of commercial lobbyists and also a code of conduct aimed at cleaning up the activities of commercial lobbyists in this House?

It is not the practice to disclose the proceedings of a Committee or Sub-Committee until they are reported to the House. It would not be right for me also to comment on the way in which a Sub-Committee is conducting its investi gations at the moment. Other than that, I have nothing to add to what Mr. Speaker said in his statement earlier. I fully accept that the whole House will wish to see that lobbyists conduct their proceedings properly. If they do not do so, it is not necessarily a question for the Sub-Committee but one for hon. Members to raise in this House.