asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she is satisfied that the level of discretionary awards being made to students for 1977–78 by local authorities is consistent with her policy to give priority to the education of students of 16 to 19 years of age.

Local education authorities are free to make their own decisions on the level of expenditure on discretionary awards and I have no information yet about their policies for the 1977–78 academic year. But I shall be exploring with the local authority associations ways and means of monitoring the position on discretionary awards.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that constructive reply. Is she aware that there is growing evidence of anxiety in many quarters that the level of discretionary awards next year will be lower than many would wish? Is there not therefore a case for her Department to look at ways in which a more specific grant could be given to local authorities in order to ensure that this aspect of policy retains the priority that she has accorded it?

The most recent figures that I have are for 1975–76. They indicate that there was an increase of about 27 per cent. in expenditure in that year on about 50,000 discretionary awards. We do not have any later figures, and this is the purpose of a meeting with the local authority association on 23rd March. Like my hon. Friend, I am concerned by some indications that discretionary awards are being quite sharply reduced this year and were also reduced last year. I think that we should await the facts before making any further comments.

Is the Secretary of State aware that because of the difficulties they experience in secondary education many handicapped and disabled students are not able to go forward into higher education, where they have mandatory awards? Will she therefore look carefully at the situation whereby local authorities may not be making enough use of the discretionary award schemes for handicapped students, and will she consider making them mandatory?

I shall certainly look into that matter. The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that in some cases one of the reasons is that provision is not made for handicapped young people in the design of buildings. We recently sent out a circular specifically asking local authorities to bear this in mind when, for example, they are designing extensions to further education colleges and similar institutions.

Following the question asked by the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam), does my right hon. Friend agree that whereas access is important, the point made by the hon. Gentleman is vital, namely, that disabled students would often qualify for mandatory grants but because of illnesses that occur, with disability, they are not able to take them up, and consequently they suffer if they come under the umbrella of discretionary grants? Will my right hon. Friend please persuade local authorities to treat discretionary grants for disabled pupils and students as mandatory?

My hon. Friend's first point may provide an easier approach to the question. He probably has in mind the fact that where students are entitled to a mandatory award, as almost all are at the higher educational level on the first occasion, if they have to give them up for reasons of illness, they find that they are barred from a further mandatory award. I shall certainly look into that point. But on the wider question of discretionary awards, I refer back to my answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Mr. Davies). We need to know rather more facts about the matter.

Apart from the narrower but human problems raised earlier, is it not a fact that, contrary to some people's ideas, these discretionary awards cover very important courses, such as aspects of the medical profession and business studies, which are all directly relevant to the country's recovery and that therefore the widespread anxiety about their undue reduction is well founded?

I share the hon. Gentleman's worries about this. He will be aware, however, that to make all discretionary awards mandatory would involve a substantial addition to public expenditure. The most that I can promise the House is to look into the matter to see whether there are particular categories that we might reconsider.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she has any plans to give guidance to local education authorities with a view to reaching recognised standards of education for the rising-fives.

It is for local education authorities to decide how to use their statutory powers to provide education for children below compulsory school age, subject of course to central Government guidance on the use of resources.

Is it not time we had a policy on the rising-fives? My own county of Avon has just decided that the rising-fives should not have education, which means that some children, because of the accident of their birthday, have a shorter time at infant school. This has a devastating effect on the whole of their school life.

The admission of rising-fives has been a problem for some time. Unfortunately, we have had to advise authorities that they should not admit rising-fives to schools unless the call on resources is minimal. Although there is a great deal of pressure to admit younger children to infant schools, there is also a suggestion by various authorities—by which I mean individuals and not local education authorities—that not every child is ready for admission to an infant class before the age of five.

Does the hon. Lady think that any contribution to the strengthening of pre-school provisions could be made by encouraging local education authorities to take over overall responsibility not only for nursery education but for child minders, playgroups and other aspects that now fall under the Department of Health and Social Security umbrella? Has the Department turned its mind to that?

Indeed it has. It issued a joint circular with the DHSS some time ago on the matter. We are continuing discussions with that Department to see what further co-operation we may be able to have.

Has my hon. Friend any concern about the fact that local authorities have been advised not to admit rising-fives except under certain circumstances and that pre-school facilities are being savaged throughout the country, particularly by Tory authorities? Is she concerned about the effect that this will have on pre-school children, who, if they are not yet ready for full school, as my hon. Friend said, are certainly ready for some form of pre-school education and opportunity?

Indeed I am concerned, as I think no one can fail to be, but I must remind my hon. Friend that over 50 per cent. of five-year-olds are receiving some kind of education in nursery classes, nursery schools or infant classes. I regret that this is one of the areas in which we cannot do more at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations she has received about the provision of education for those under 5 years.

My right hon. Friend has recently discussed this question with the British Association for Early Childhood Education and the Council for Educational Advance and officials of my Department will be meeting the Voluntary Organisation's Liaison Committee for Under Fives this week. My right hon. Friend has also received letters from hon. Members and others making various points about educational provision for the under-fives.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is she aware that there is considerable variation in the amount of nursery education that is provided from local authority to local authority? Is she aware that the provision of nursery education in Gloucestershire is one of the poorest in the whole country? If education at this age is important, as I believe my hon. Friend accepts, is it possible for her to do something to introduce some standard of equality throughout the country to ensure the proper provision of nursery education?

As my hon. Friend is all too well aware, Gloucestershire has the unhappy distinction of being the only county without a nursery school, having closed the only one that it previously had. That was something that we all bitterly regretted. It is true that there is uneven provision throughout the country. That is partly because of the provision that has been made for areas of special social need. There is no doubt that we should all like to see far wider provision of a far better standard.

Does my hon. Friend agree that in some areas there could be very much better and closer contact between local education authorities and the voluntary organisations and individuals involved in the care and education of the under-fives? Will she consider issuing firm advice to promote such contact and ensure not only that limited resources are effectively used but that personal enthusiasm is encouraged?

We are extremely aware of the need for co-operation between local authorities. As my hon. Friend knows, there has already been one circular on the matter. We are considering urgently what further steps we might take to promote such local co-operation.

I fully accept the tremendous importance of education at an early age, and at under 5 in particular, but will the hon. Lady indicate whether the Government would be prepared to encourage parents, where provision could be made, to make a contribution towards the cost of those who undergo education before five years?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the existence of pre-school play groups, which work partly on the basis of parental contribution. However, we believe that provision made by local authorities in the form of nursery education should be free, especially in areas where there is particular social need.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she will make a statement about the policy of the Government towards charges for school meals, in the light of the projections for expenditure in the public expenditure White Paper.

The Government's policy on charging is set out on page 72 of Volume II of the White Paper.

Does the hon. Lady recall that in the White Paper of February 1976 it was stated that the charge for school meals would go up from 15p to 20p in September of last year? Bearing in mind that that did not happen—the Government broke their own undertaking—may the House assume that this time the Government mean what they say and that the charge for school meals will be 25p this autumn?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the negotiations on the last round of the social contract included a request that instead of the school meal going up to 20p in September 1976 the increase should be postponed until September this year, when the cost is expected to go up to 25p. Like the hon. Gentleman, I am not a prophet, but that is what is intended.

Does my hon. Friend accept that many working people with large families are very concerned about increases in the cost of school meals and of bus transport to school and that they feel much more deeply about such increases resulting indirectly from Government policy than about those applied by the private sector? Will she ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to use her considerable power within the Cabinet to get the decision reversed, even at this stage?

We are concerned to avoid imposing more increases than are absolutely necessary, but I must remind my hon. Friend that the subsidy on school meals has risen substantially, and unfortunately we have not felt able to continue it at that level any longer. That is why, sadly, the price is intended to be raised in September.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions she has held and what representations she has received about the future of the Evelyn Library.

While the Government have received representations from Christ Church, Oxford, the Friends of the National Libraries, the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mr. Price) and three members of the public, they have received none whatsoever from the trustees. My noble Friend is considering, in consultation with the British Library, whether there is any way in which the collection can be kept together.

I thank the right hon. Lady for that reply, particularly her last few words. Does she agree that this is a collection of pre-eminent importance and that everything possible should be done to keep it in the country? Will she take a personal interest in doing just that?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I have already taken a personal interest. The problem is whether the trustees also appreciate the importance of keeping the collection together. There is, at least in law, no way in which the Government can compel them to put the collection forward for public purchase or purchase in any other way.

Does the right hon Lady realise that her Department is gaining a reputation for philistine indifference to the future of our national heritage, what with Mentmore, first, and the Evelyn collection, second? Will she wake her noble colleague the Minister responsible for the arts, now almost invisible, out of his slumbers and get him to call a conference between representatives of the family, representatives of the British Library's Board and Treasury officials, so that something can be done by the Government to keep this unique library intact for the benefit of the nation?

My best response to the hon. Gentleman is to say that one can take a horse to water but one cannot make it drink. That is the precise situation with regard to the Evelyn Collection.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she intends to set up a committee to advise her on child literacy.

No, Sir. I am not convinced that such a committee would serve any useful purpose. The findings and recommendations of the Bullock Report "A Language for Life" remain highly relevant. In addition, we are looking closely at the question of basic skills, including that of literacy, during the present debate on education.

Is the hon. Lady aware that between 1973 and 1976 real expenditure on books in primary schools fell by 10 per cent. and that this year some major authorities are planning to cut back their expenditure on books in primary schools by as much as 15 per cent? How will that help literacy?

Like the hon. Gentleman, I regret that some local authorities are being forced to take these steps as part of their response to restraints on public expenditure. I should be glad if in welcoming public expenditure cuts, as they do, Opposition Members would also welcome their consequences, of which this is one.

When she is considering the question of child literacy, will my hon. Friend bear in mind the problems of the dyslexic child, and also bear in mind that such children benefit from specialised teaching? Will she do all she can to encourage specialised teaching methods and training for people in this field?

This is a subject in which I have taken a degree of interest. I am not sure whether any particularly specialised method is appropriate but certainly a degree of attention is needed for dyslexic children, as for children with other reading difficulties, specific or otherwise. To that extent, I recognise my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Will the hon. Lady please reconsider her last answer? Does she appreciate that very special methods are needed for dyslexic children and that very often those children are incapable of obtaining full benefit from the education system, because those special methods are not made available to them owing to lack of grants from local education authorities?

I have discussed the matter at some length with people who are experienced and expert in the field and have had particular success with children with such problems. It is my understanding that there is no particular method. As with every other kind of teaching of reading to children with problems, there is a variety of methods, some of which are suitable for one child but not for another with, in theory, precisely the same problem. I do not accept that there is a simple problem with a simple set of solutions. I am certainly aware of the difficulties.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she has any plans to meet the University Grants Committee.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she has any plans to meet the University Grants Committee.

I have no immediate plans to meet the committee.

When my right hon. Friend next meets the committee will she ask it to press on the authorities of Birmingham University the need to honour the national holiday agreement, arrived at in 1974 after an arbitration agreement, and so end what has become the longest dispute in this country, lasting more than six months?

I understand that what is in dispute is the interpretation of the agreement and not the matter of pay policy. I do not think that it would be right for me to take either side.

Has not the union concerned, ASTMS, put forward two proposals which, with reasonable management, could meet with some response? One proposal is that the union should accept the holiday agreement given to it by Warwick and, secondly, that meetings should be held under the chairmanship of an independent person experienced in labour relations. Do not both proposals appear to be reasonable?

I understand that it has been suggested by the union that ACAS should be brought in. I very much hope that the two sides will re-examine the matter.

Does the fact that the right hon. Lady has no immediate plans to meet the UGC mean that she regards that body as a very satisfactory way of organising university finance, avoiding any direct involvement by Government Departments? Does it not provide a better model for the financing of polytechnics than her own continued enthusiasm for the binary system?

The reason I replied as I did was that I met representatives of the UGC as recently as last November, and I have met its chairman on several occasions since that time. Therefore, the hon. Gentleman should not draw misleading conclusions.

Has the right hon. Lady discussed with the UGC the subject of Shoreditch College, in my constituency, and the possibility of that college crossing the binary line and joining with the universities?

No, Sir; it would not be appropriate for me to do so because Shoreditch College is the responsibility of ILEA. It is for that authority to put forward proposals relating to Shoreditch College before any other step can be taken or considered. We are still awaiting their proposals.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement about the future of sixth form colleges.

Thirty-two local education authorities have now established sixth form colleges as part of their schemes for secondary reorganisation I welcome this, especially at a time of declining secondary school rolls. Sixth form colleges allow a wide range of courses to be provided on an economical basis for all those who wish to continue their education beyond 16.

Will the Minister say why there is this anomaly in the regulations applying to post-16 education in schools and sixth form colleges and those who go to further education colleges after 16? Why are such matters as the provision of fares not allowed in colleges of further education? Will the Minister consider publishing common regulations applying to both sectors—school education and college education—after 16? That would be fairer, and helpful.

We are aware of the problems arising from the fact that tertiary colleges and sixth form colleges operate under different regulations. That is the way in which the matter has evolved. We are considering the position.

Will the Minister assure the House that before the Government bring any pressure to bear in terms of any further advance in the number of sixth form colleges and tertiary colleges there will be a full public examination of academic results compared with other areas and other forms of organisation and also comparing the results in terms of the teaching profession in relation to children of the age of 16?

It would be wise to examine the results at sixth form colleges, and such an exercise could produce only a favourable reaction. I question whether we should look at academic results only, since the whole point of sixth form colleges is to provide academic and non-academic courses. It would be a pity to look at only one side.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether she is satisfied that the views of parents are being adequately reflected in the great debate on education.

Representatives of parents have been invited to all the regional conferences on education which are now taking place. At the conferences held so far parents have made a significant contribution to the discussion. In addition, my right hon. Friend has received a substantial number of written comments from parents and from organisations representing their interests.

Will the Minister say whether the views put forward by parents at conferences are similar to the views expressed by parents when writing to the Department of Education expressing dissatisfaction with the schools allocated in secondary school transfers? If those views are not being put forward, what action does the Department take to ensure that dissident views are heard?

I find the hon. Gentleman's question hard to answer. On the whole, parents who write to us about regional conferences discuss general questions of education rather than the placement of a particular child. We are aware that many problems arise in the choice of school, but there is no single factor that can be applied to each case. There is a tremendous range of problems, which differ from one family to another and from one child to another.

Since this Question deals with the great debate, will my hon. Friend comment on the article in the Daily Express last Saturday headed "Return to the 11-plus" in which that newspaper, reporting on a conference in Peterborough at which the Minister spoke the day before, inferred from certain statements she made that some form of examination, even if not in 11-plus form, was to be reintroduced?

It was a classic example of an accurate quotation of one's words but the wrong conclusions being drawn from them. The Daily Express appeared to suggest that we were in favour of the reintroduction of the 11-plus examination as it existed. That is totally inaccurate. We are not opposed, nor can anybody be opposed, to a proper system of diagnostic assessment at any age, in the sense that it allows for any problems found to be remedied. That is a very different matter from the 11-plus. That was a system of classifying children for the rest of their school education.

How many of the people invited to regional conferences came specifically in their capacity as parents? Is the Minister satisfied that enough parents attended these conferences?

Parents' representatives have numbered 68 out of a total of 863 who have attended the conferences. 17 parents have spoken at the conferences, out of a total of 160 speakers. That is not a bad balance. We have tried to maintain a reasonable balance between the various interests and have specifically called people in the various groups. We particularly asked parents to contribute to the discussions.

In some respects cannot the attitude adopted by parents be positively harmful—to wit, that young people seeking entrance to further and higher education are wholly dependent on the whims of their parents since those parents must sign income declaration forms? I have in my constituency one young talented student who is now being excluded from Birmingham School of Music simply because of the attitude of his parents, which is a totally negative one, since by not signing the declaration they are denying him higher education.

I am concerned by what my hon. Friend says. It is most unusual. I shall be grateful it he will write to me giving the details of that case.

Does the Minister recognise that although we are glad that she is holding this series of conferences—as a prelude to our own, which will take place after Easter—we would welcome even more a clear statement of Government policy on the proposals in our parent' charter for parental governors of schools in the maintained sector, for the publication of prospectuses, and for other measures that we have put forward to increase parental influence in our schools?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned that matter, because it gives me the opportunity to make the position clear. The implication from what has been said is that the Conservative Party was not being invited to the conferences. We very much regret the fact that although Conservative representatives were invited none has put in an appearance.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps she intends to take to see that there is adequate in-service training for teachers.

The Government's expenditure plans include provision for the gradual expansion of in-service training from 1977–78. The proposals for the future of the teacher training system that I announced on 24th January envisage that about 10,000 of the 45,000 places proposed for 1981 will be devoted to in-service education and training.

I thank the right hon. Lady for that reply. In view of the cuts imposed on local education authorities, does she agree that there is a need to give greater attention to weekend and evening forms of in-service training rather than sending teachers away for whole terms, or years? In particular, will she bear in mind the value of the work done by the North Worcestershire College in that respect?

We are looking closely at school-based training and in-service training based at teacher centres, for example. It is by no means the case that all in-service teacher training takes place in the colleges, although some of it does. It will be a matter for the local education authority to decide whether to continue in-service training at the North Worcestershire College, but we would welcome that course being taken.

How many deputations has the right hon. Lady received from hon. Members of this place or Members of another place regarding closures of teacher training colleges? Has she received a letter from me about the proposed closure of the Philippa Fawcett College, in my constituency?

My hon. Friend the Minister of State has seen a good many delegations. I could not give the precise number without notice, but it must be more than 20. My hon. Friend has so far accepted a deputation from a local authority that wants to see him, whether or not accompanied by its Member of Parliament.

Will my right hon. Friend assure us that the cuts in education, sad as they are, are much smaller than those that the Conservative Party would engage in if in power? Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that they will have an adverse effect on the many teacher centres used for in-service training throughout the country? Will she keep an eye on these matters and ensure that Draconian cuts are not made that mean the abolition of in-service training in these schools?

My hon. Friend will know that in the rate support grant settlement for next year we went to great trouble to set aside £7 million to make a start on in-service training. I have to say that, sadly, not all local education authorities are following our advice, although most teacher centres are being continued. That is why I have suggested that this might be an appropriate area for some degree of specific grant to ensure that in-service training, upon which I and the teacher organisations place the greatest possible priority, shall be guaranteed over the next few years.

As part of her special initiative to improve education, does the right hon. Lady not consider that she should take an initiative with the universities and seek their advice on in-service training? Is she aware that many universities want to give advice on in-service training, especially in mathematics, as it is their great concern that the teaching of that subject in primary and secondary schools is below the standard now required? Does the right hon. Lady agree that this matter should not be left to the local authorities, and that she should take the initiative and talk to the universities?

I have already discussed in-service training with the Advisory Committee on the Supply and Training of Teachers, which contains representatives from the universities. I am bound to say that one important element in in-service training is the basic professional understanding of how to deal with a class, how to teach reading, and how to get across basic skills in mathematics. In some ways the university input is not in that sphere.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what further representations she has received concerning the circulation of national collections in the future.

Since my right hon. Friend's statement in reply to my right hon. Friend, the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) on 10th February 1977, representations have been received from about 20 hon. Members, seven local authorities or their organisations, one area museum council and two national organisations.

Does the hon. Lady accept that the closure of the V and A Regional Services Department goes totally against the V and A's original charter, which was established to take our art treasures from London into the provinces? Why were there no consultations with the Museums Association? Will the result of this decision not be the breaking up of many valuable art collections that were donated by individuals in trust for this purpose?

No, I do not think that that will be so. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman does not realise that about 90 per cent. of the circulating material will be available and we hope to have a new scheme enabling us to borrow from all national collections. Although this Department is being closed we do not feel that this will be the end of local museums receiving help. The hon. Gentleman will know that my noble Friend Lord Donaldson plans to hold a conference with the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries, at which it will be possible for these issues to be raised and further discussed.

Will my hon. Friend outline the alternatives that would allow art collections to go round the country? The closure of this Department could be a most regrettable step, as in many cases local authorities have relied totally upon it. It would be very bad for young people in the provinces not to be able to have the benefit of seeing these collections.

That would be true if it were the case. Perhaps my hon. Friend does not realise that although we are proposing to make changes we are not proposing to abolish the scheme altogether. We hope that some of the changes will improve the situation. I have already told the hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Hannam) that 90 per cent. of the circulating material will continue to be on offer. The previous scheme referred only to the Victoria and Albert, whereas this scheme will refer to all national collections. A matter that we think will be of particular assistance is the proposal for a Government indemnity for the insurance of objects being borrowed. That will have the effect of making local authorities much more willing to borrow, as well as making it easier for them to continue to borrow on an extensive scale.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what study she has made of the use of incentives to students in higher and further education aimed at attracting students to nationally desirable areas of study.

In general, the mandatory awards system is intended to enable students to complete their course of study, whatever the subject. But I announced on 3rd February a change in the mandatory awards arrangements whereby payments of up to £500 per annum may be made by employers, or by way of scholarships, without a reduction in the student's grant. This will be in addition to the normal disregard of income, which is at present £185 per annum. I am also considering the possibility of a national scholarship scheme for students taking selected engineering courses.

I greatly welcome the action that my right hon. Friend has taken. I am sure that she will be as aware as I am that many people who are involved in this area and who in the past have been reluctant to support such incentives are becoming increasingly concerned about the lack of support for some college courses that are regarded as important in the national interest, and they believe that something must be done to reorient students.

I thank my hon. Friend for his support. I would only add to what I have said that I think that the status of certain professions, such as engineering, is also very important and that it is useful for society itself to reflect the special value that we place upon those going into industry, particularly productive industry, on either side.

Taking the problem back to a rather earlier age, what is being done to make careers guidance available at an earlier age to pupils at school?

We are looking carefully at the careers guidance position. We have suggested to schools in the course of our document that careers guidance should start as young as 13. In many schools it starts too late. There are now signs of a marked move towards science and engineering in the schools and in applications to universities and colleges.

In view of my right hon. Friend's reported concern about the teaching of foreign languages, will she consider, in making special awards, the granting of higher education awards to pupils who wish to take difficult languages suitable for the export drive, such as Arabic, Persian and Portuguese?

I shall consider that, but what we are primarily trying to do at present is to discuss with the bodies concerned the possibility of combining languages with technology and engineering courses, which at present is very rare. I think that there is far too much emphasis on the view that a person studies either languages or technology but never both together.

Does the right hon. Lady agree that the limited number studying mathematics, science and modern languages in university from 1971 to 1975, which was static, was determined largely by the numbers reading those subjects in the fifth and sixth forms of schools? What does she suggest can be done to encourage at that earlier stage not only the careers guidance to which my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) referred but good teaching in fifth and sixth forms, so that the students are prepared for these subjects at university?

There is an absolutely crucial step, which I think should have been taken even earlier with regard to the problem of resolving the shortage of teachers in mathematics and science, which for many years have been shortage subjects. We are inviting 11 colleges to mount special courses for teachers in the shortage subject of mathematics. We have already invited 11 colleges to mount special courses for teachers in the shortage subjects of technology and craft. I agree that a student cannot study maths and science unless he is taught by someone with an affection for the subject and who knows how to teach it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if she will make a statement on the campaign to reduce adult illiteracy.

The campaign to reduce adult illiteracy is a unique collaborative movement involving local education authorities, voluntary bodies, the BBC, and the Government. In the two years since the Adult Literacy Resource Agency was set up to provide assistance with Government funds, a firm foundation of local provision has been established, some 50,000 volunteer tutors have come forward, and the number of students has grown to over 100,000. The agency is currently collecting material for a further report.

Is the Minister aware that the number of 100,000 shows a considerable success for the scheme, but it needs to be measured against the number of 2 million who need to be regarded as illiterate for practical purposes? Will she bear this in mind when talking to her colleagues about the appropriate language to use in Government forms, many of which must be incapable of being understood by many of those for whom they are intended?

Yes, that is a very good point. We are certainly aware of the immensity of the problem of adult illiteracy, which does so little to bear out the comments made by some of the hon. Member's hon. Friends about the virtues of our past education system.

May I draw my hon. Friend's attention to another area of adult illiteracy, namely, problems of the English language, particularly those faced by immigrants in industrial areas? This is principally a problem for the Home Office, but does my hon. Friend acknowledge that some education authorities have refused to provide the 25 per cent. grant under the urban aid programme? Will she assure the House that her Department will consult Home Office Ministers so that money will be forthcoming to establish language training sectors for immigrant workers?

We are looking into this problem. My hon. Friend will be aware that the BBC is currently considering dealing with this aspect in a programme similar to that dealing with the subject of adult illiteracy.

If the hon. Lady and her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State are, as they say, rightly concerned about illiteracy, is it not disgraceful that the Government have not yet found time to debate the Bullock Report on Illiteracy? Will she have a word with her right hon. Friend the Leader of the House with a view to remedying this?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he has a word with his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about finding time for a debate on a Supply Day.