asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any further plans to help small industries in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what arrangements have been made to implement his announcement that a better advisory service for small firms in North Wales is to be set up; and if he will make a statement.

I am glad to say that arrangements have been made for an official of the Small Firms Information Service in Cardiff to attend my Department's office at Colwyn Bay on the first and third Monday of each month from 18th July onwards. He will be available to deal by telephone or by personal interview with inquiries from small firms or those wishing to enter business for the first time. Both the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales are paying special attention in their plans to the needs of small industries, and I shall continue to keep all the arrangements for providing the best possible service to small industries under close review.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his encouraging reply. Does he not agree that it is very difficult to find tenants for the many advance factories in Wales? In these circumstances. will he consider giving some of these advance factories to service industries? What further plans are there to help the small employers who employ between three and 10 people, who are the backbone of the rural community?

On the first point, when I met the Chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales he made it clear that it was the Board's top priority to seek new tenants for empty advance factories. The Board has had a measure of success already. The question of extending the availability of the factories for service industries would need to be looked at. As regards general help to small businesses, about one-third of all applications for selective financial assistance approved in the last two years have been from small firms employing fewer than 50 people. The Welsh Development Agency has set up a small business unit which has made an encouraging start.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that his helpful reply will be appreciated by the smaller industrialists in North Wales? Can he give an assurance that, if there is a clear demand for the kind of service which will now become available, he will be prepared to extend the service? Secondly, will he take steps to ensure that the availability of the new service is made known through the local Press, so that all industries in the area will know that the service exists?

On the last point, Press notices have been issued today and letters are being sent to known small firms and the chambers of commerce. I have visited the Small Business Centre at Cardiff, as I said in the Welsh Grand Committee, and have invited hon. Members on both sides of the House to visit the centre to see what is happening there. If they have views on this subject, I shall be glad to hear them. Certainly, if the scheme works and is seen to be of help, I should be the first to want to extend it.

In welcoming his announcement, may I ask the Secretary of State whether the Welsh Development Agency will be extending in bricks and mortar this change in policy? In Gwynedd a survey showed that 64 small firms needed new premises, and 62 of these firms wanted factories of between 2,000 sq. ft. and 2,500 sq. ft. Subsequent to that survey, the WDA has announced one factory of 10,000 sq. ft. and two of 5,000 sq. ft. for Gwynedd. Will the Secretary of State press upon the WDA the need for further small factory units?

The hon. Gentleman has missed the last announcement of the Welsh Development Agency in April this year, when 61 factories were announced for the whole of Wales. They included 51 factories of 5,000 sq. ft. or less. About 15 or 20 jobs would be provided in a factory of that size. The whole emphasis in the last announcement was to cater for small firms. If these factories were taken up, I would give every encouragement to the WDA to build more factories.

While I welcome the statement as far as it goes, may I ask the Secretary of State to consider relaxing the rule that expansionary work cannot begin until grants have been fully approved? As the right hon. and learned Gentleman may know, there are two firms in my constituency which have been caught out by the timing rule.

I do not want to deal with any particular case this afternoon. If the hon. Gentleman is talking about one factory that I have in mind, he will know the history of the matter. It was made clear that, as is laid down in the regulations, firms must apply before work starts. It is a cardinal principle of the grants system, and it has been applied for many years, that approval should be given before the work starts. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will contact me if I am wrong. That was the difficulty in that case.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the increased use of the Welsh language in post-school institutions in Wales.

The Government's policy is to encourage a greater use of the Welsh language whenever practicable. This applies as much in post-school institutions as in other fields.

In applying the test of practicability, will the Secretary of State bear in mind that, however beautiful a culture is represented by the language, to extend it compulsorily to the post-school world would be a very grave error? Will he also bear in mind that the compulsory learning of this language at school age is already creating in Wales some of the most educationally deprived children in Europe?

Rubbish.

I always thought that the hon. Gentleman knew something about education. I do not know on what basis he advances the statement made in the last part of his supplementary question. To my knowledge it is not supported by evidence in any shape or form. Perhaps he will let me know in due course the basis for it.

Is the Secretary of State aware that if the Government implemented their long-standing undertaking to establish the fourth television channel as a national channel in Wales it would be natural to develop on that channel a Welsh language university of the air? Will he hasten that day?

I do not wish to comment at this stage on the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, but the Government's commitment to the fourth channel is well known. It is simply a question of finding funds before one can proceed with it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for directing a higher proportion of public expenditure in Wales towards productive industry so as to help create more worthwhile job opportunities.

There is no restriction on the money available for assistance to industrial development under Section 7 of the Industry Act for which I am responsible. Officials of my Department are launching a campaign to draw the attention of industry to the full range of incentives available.

Does the Secretary of State agree that one of the basic faults of the British economy and of the Welsh economy is that too high a percentage of public expenditure has been directed to the non-productive sector, in particular in the reform of local government and the reform of the National Health Service, which has deprived the productive sector of expenditure which it otherwise might have had?

I have no responsibility for the actions of the last Conservative Administration which decided to reorganise local government and the Health Service in the way they did, which has been substantially disapproved—I put it as mildly as I can—from one end of Wales to the other. We are ensuring that resources are made available for industrial development in publicly-owned industry and privately-owned industry. That has been the emphasis of the Government.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that the June jobless figure for Gwent showed an increase of 892? That is a significant rise against the national trend, even before school leavers come on to the labour market. Does it not reveal once again the injustice of not including Newport in the development area, which deprives the people of Gwent of so many job opportunities?

I share my hon. Friend's concern about the unemployment figures. The question of development area status for Newport, for which my hon. Friend has been an assiduous campaigner, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

Is not the real economic mistake to take too much away from productive industry in the way of resources?

If the hon. Gentleman would spell out how he would seek to cut back on public expenditure, of which I understand he is an advocate, perhaps I could deal with that question more fully. However, he seeks to get the best of both worlds. He seeks a massive cut in public expenditure, which would lead to much more unemployment right across Wales.

I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman told readers of the Western Mail on Friday that it would be tedious to catalogue the reasons for our economic failure, but would it not be sensible for him to try to analyse them and explain why high tax policies have brought economic and social disaster in Wales, added 42,000 to the list of Welsh unemployment and destroyed the job prospects of 12,000 or 13,000 young people?

If the hon. Gentleman had read the whole of the article, he would have seen that I made it clear that there has been a failure to compete with other Western European countries and with the rest of the world in growth since the end of the war. If the hon. Gentleman divorces the Welsh economy from what has been happening in the rest of Europe, he has failed to understand it. We have taken major decisions for substantial public investment—in the steel industry at Port Talbot, at Shotton and at Ebbw Vale, and in the coal industry —and we have given every possible help to private industry. Hence the Hoover decision at Merthyr and the decisions taken on many other places.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the extent of underspending on housing in Wales in 1976–77, comparing the actual amount spent with the amount available.

There has been an underspending on housing in Wales in 1976–77 of some £25 million, but accurate figures are not yet available.

I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that that is a staggering figure. Is it not about 25 per cent. of the total? Has the Minister's working party, consisting of members of the Council for the Principality and Welsh Office officials, come up with an explanation of the 25 per cent. underspend, which must be regarded as scandalous in view of the housing need in Wales and the high level of unemployment in the construction industry? What steps does it recommend the Minister to take to prevent similar underspend this year?

Despite the efforts of my right hon. and learned Friend to secure additional public finance for housing in Wales, he and I were both deeply disturbed when we found that there was some indication that there would be an underspend of the size I have mentioned. For that reason, we thought that, rather than draw somewhat hasty, almost politically motivated, conclusions, we would establish the working party. We are awaiting its report, which we hope to receive very shortly, so that we can devise policies and ensure that this underspend does not occur again. We are all aware of the need for spending on housing in Wales.

Has not the hon. Gentleman come to a tentative conclusion on the reasons for the underspend? If the housing need is what we think it is—and that is what has to be established—why have not the local authorities spent the money? Is it a question of high interest rates, or what?

If we knew the reasons, we would not have set up the working party. The reasons put forward by local authorities throughout Wales vary considerably. As I have mentioned in the House before, some authorities suggested that the reason was the heavy rain in October. But, as I said, I thought that the rain fell generously throughout Wales. We are trying to find out whether there are faults in the machinery of monitoring. All the possibilities are being examined to ensure that we find the true reason so that we do not have another underspend.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that some districts in Wales responded with alacrity to the new funds available and spent all their funds, while others manifestly fell far short of that? When the final figures are available, will he show the underspend district by district so that we may see which authorities are the major defaulters?

Yes. When the working party has reported, we will publish its report and indicate the areas in which the underspend has occurred.

When studying the report of the working party, will the hon. Gentleman consider the work of his Housing Division and see in what way its work and particularly the stop-go directives to local authorities on spending on housing have affected the take-up of the allocations?

I made it clear to the working party—and this was agreed—that we would not leave anything out from the inquiry. If there are faults in the machinery of the Welsh Office, they will be part of the inquiry. We want the fullest possible inquiry to take place and we shall make its results public.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what expenditure was authorised by him in the first year of his responsibility for those sections of the Industry Act 1972 that were transferred to the Welsh Office; and how this expenditure compares with that under the same headings in Wales during the previous three years.

On 1st July 1975 I assumed responsibility for assistance under Section 7 of the Industry Act 1972 for undertakings in Wales. In the financial year 1975–76, offers of assistance under this section to projects in Wales totalled £16·3 million. In the financial years to March 1975, 1974 and 1973, the corresponding figures were £11·2 million, £13·5 million and £1.5 million respectively.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer and for the progress that has been made in increasing investment under that section. In view of that, will he put pressure on the Prime Minister to transfer also Section 8 powers to the Welsh Office, since in Wales only £3 million was spent under Section 8 last year compared with £150 million throughout the whole of Britain?

What has been spent under Section 8 depends on the nature of the industries. I am quite content to have the powers under Section 7. They are the ones that I need. I am confident that where we have a good case there is no difficulty whatever in getting more money for Wales under Section 8. The important thing is getting suitable projects.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent consultations with the Chairman of the Land Authority for Wales concerning staff appointments.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on appointments to the Welsh Land Authority.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no general responsibility for the appointment of staff to the Land Authority for Wales. The only appointment to this Authority which needs my right hon and learned Friend's specific approval is that of the chief executive.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that, if the information revealed about the appointment of Mr. Johnson as legal officer for the Land Authority is correct, it reveals the most blatant misuse of public funds that it is possible to imagine? Does not my hon. Friend feel that there is a necessity for a full investigation into this matter, particularly into the nature of the illness from which Mr. Johnson allegedly suffered? Finally, does not my hon. Friend agree that it is now time that the Government set about rectifying the extravagant reorganisation of local government carried out in Wales by the last Government?

I am certainly aware that the reorganisation of local government as carried out by the last Government has not met with unanimous approval throughout Wales, nor is it yet functioning properly and efficiently. With regard to the specific case mentioned by my hon. Friend, I must say that the circumstances of the termination of any former employment of Land Authority for Wales officers is principally a matter for the person concerned and his former employers. My right hon. and learned Friend has no powers whatever in this matter. The Land Authority, like many other public sector bodies, requires potential employees to provide a medical certificate, and that practice was followed in this case.

Does service with the Land Authority for Wales count as local government employment? If so, is it permissible for one person to draw a pension from one local government employment and a salary from another? Will my hon. Friend use his influence to persuade the public authorities concerned to make a clear public statement about the circumstances under which Mr. Johnson left his former employment?

The circumstances under which Mr. Johnson left his previous employment must be a matter for Mr. Johnson and that authority. My right hon. and learned Friend has certainly no responsibilities in that matter. He has, however, made it clear that we shall not sanction any arrangements which avoid the need for a reassessment of the earlier award if that would otherwise be required under the prescribed arrangements.

Is not the Minister aware that this matter is causing grave public concern? Although the Welsh Office has no direct responsibility, does not the Minister agree that there is a need for a public statement on this matter? Is it right that this officer has a full pension, has obtained a golden handshake of five figures from one authority and is now appointed to another public authority on the basis that he is fully fit?

The hon. and learned Gentleman is asking me to make a statement to the House concerning the conditions relating to a former employee of a local authority in England. I must say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that I do not believe that this is properly a matter for me.

What information has the Land Authority obtained from this gentleman about his contributions record for the basis of superannuation? Has he been granted terms for new superannuation or pension for which he will qualify in due course, thus ensuring himself in future a very large second pension?

As I said previously, and as my right hon. and learned Friend has already said, if there were any question of the need for reassessment of the earlier award we would certainly not countenance anything to prevent its taking place.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to meet the Chairman of the South Glamorgan Health Authority.

My right hon. and learned Friend hopes to meet the chairman with other area health authority chairmen on 22nd July. I myself met the chairman on 6th July.

When the Secretary of State meets the chairman, will he bear in mind the enormous public concern which has been aroused over the proposed closure of the Glan Ely and Rhydlafer hospitals, particularly in the light of the scandalous waiting lists for orthopaedic treatment and the growing demand for geriatric services in South Glamorgan?

I visited the Glan Ely Hospital last week. I also visited Lansdowne and St. David's and talked in some detail with the chairman about the problems which ought to be looked at and solved. I would say to the House that we are, however, willing to extend by a further month—until 22nd August—the normal one-month period for direct appeals and representations to the Secretary of State. With regard to Rhydlafer, I discussed this issue with the chairman, but we have received no proposals as yet.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is deep concern in Wales about the reorganisation of the Health Service and the tendency to concentrate hospitals into larger units? There is also concern about the closure of Rhydlafer Hospital which goes beyond South Glamorgan into Mid-Glamorgan. There is also concern about the closure of the haematology department. Will my hon. Friend assure patients in the area that these services will be retained?

There is no cause for alarm with regard to Rhydlafer. The study which the authority is making is without prejudice. With regard to the general principle of having large or small hospitals, I would say that beyond any shadow of doubt the Department knows how much loved the smaller hospitals in Wales are. At the same time, however, if 10 years ago a great hospital was planned, conceivably there would have to be consequential closures. However, there is full procedure of consultation and the Welsh Office will never override that.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent consultations with the Chairman and members of the South Glamorgan Health Authority regarding their proposals affecting various hospitals in their area.

I discussed them with the chairman in the course of visits to Landsdowne, Glan Ely and St. David's Hospitals last week.

While appreciating that the Chairman and members of the South Glamorgan Health Authority have a formidable and difficult task, may I point out that there is deep and wide concern about the number of proposals affecting so many of the hospitals, including the one in my constituency—the Prince of Wales—and Glan Ely? There is also uncertainty about the future of Barry, Sully and Lansdowne Hospitals. Does the Minister realise that it is vitally important that his Department should enter into close consultations with the authority to ensure that no hasty decision is taken? In the case of the Prince of Wales Hospital, will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that we should not like to see the purpose-built unit divided into two, as has been proposed?

No decision will be lightly taken. I am fully conscious of the anxiety of the hon. Gentleman in regard to his constituency. We have examined the subject of cover for minor casualties, but at the same time we as a Department have no Draconian powers and we cannot insist on local GPs helping to give that cover.

Is the Minister aware of the grave concern in the medical profession and among leukaemia patients in Wales about the treatment of that illness and the policy followed by the Welsh Office, apparently without adequate consultation? Will he take this opportunity to say that he will be ready to hold the meeting which we have requested with him so that we may discuss this matter?

If the hon. Gentleman wants a meeting, it will take place as soon as convenient to both of us and our colleagues.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has received any further representations from the Rhuddlan Borough Council on the consequences for Rhyl and district of exclusion from the Welsh Development Area.

No, Sir, not directly, but Clwyd County Council has made representations in respect of that part of the county outside the development area.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the growing feeling of despair in Rhyl at prospects for the coming winter and at his apparent intention to wash his hands of the future of the area? However, will he take this opportunity to do something helpful and persuade his colleagues at the Department of Employment to tell the industrial tribunal to get on with the hearings of the industrial dispute which is holding up construction of the Sun Centre at Rhyl?

That is not a matter for me, but I am consulting my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. As for any question of my washing my hands of the affairs of Rhyl, I do not think that that statement can be substantiated by evidence. I am deeply concerned about unemployment wherever it exists. The Government have taken measures—for example, job creation schemes and temporary employment and youth employment subsidies—which have either saved or created about 500 jobs in Rhyl.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons are employed in Dyfed by oil refineries.

The latest figure available is for the last quarter of 1976, when 1,195 people were employed in the four refineries and their associated petrochemical plants in Dyfed.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that the firms to which he referred, which employ most of the people in the oil industry, have received tens of millions of pounds in regional grants, although there are other firms which have come to the magnificent deep harbour at Milford Haven and have not received a penny? Is he aware that companies such as Gulf Oil, an American concern, have assets amounting to £18,000 million and that others are in the same league? Is this the best way to use our regional grants? Cannot we use them in a better way to create more employment to Wales?

I am concerned to follow up any new method of deploying public funds. The hon. Gentleman may know that the greater part of the money invested in Milford was paid under the old system of investment grants. He must not look down his nose at what has been achieved, because the refineries represent 50 per cent. of all manufacturing jobs in Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven. That is a significant contribution. It may be that in future there will be downstream developments dependent on the existence of those refineries.

I have some sympathy with what the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans) said, but does the Secretary of State agree that probably between 3,000 and 4,000 people are receiving employment directly or indirectly as a result of the operations of oil companies in the area? Will he say specifically whether public funds on this scale will be available for the new cracker project which is currenty being discussed by two of the oil refineries?

I am aware informally of the existence of this project. The types of grant available for such projects will be for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and myself, and we shall have to consider the matter when it arises. At present the matter is hypothetical, and I may have the planning responsibilities in this case. I would not wish to comment further.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in the light of Chapter 11 of the June White Paper, he will publish at three yearly intervals a White Paper on transport policy in Wales.

There will be an annual White Paper for Wales on roads. The three-yearly White Papers proposed in paragraph 287 of the White Paper, Cmnd. 6836, will deal with transport policy for the whole of Great Britain. Any separate issues arising in Wales will be clearly identified and fully discussed.

Will there not be a separate three-yearly White Paper on transport policy for Scotland? Would it not be useful to have a Welsh White Paper so that we may have a regular overview of transport policy in Wales apart from the sections which may be intermingled with other parts of the United Kingdom?

There will be a separate annual White Paper on roads, for which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has responsibility. As for the main thrust of my hon. Friend's observations, I must inform him that the three-yearly White Paper will be very wide-ranging and will deal with matters in Wales as in England. Some of the subjects will relate to British Rail and drivers' hours, for example. I would have thought that there was a strong case for not having a separate three-yearly White Paper for Wales.

How does the Welsh Office view attempts by British Rail to attract freight back to rail from road transport?

I should perhaps have had previous notice of that question, but in general terms we have approved two projects of this kind.

Is not the Minister aware that there is concern in Wales over the transfer of responsibility for the financing of railways to local authorities, which are already hard pressed in their provision for roads? Is there not a case for a three-yearly Government review of the rail situation in Wales?

The Welsh Office is always reviewing the rail situation in Wales. I would inform the hon. Gentleman that the White Paper has many green pages.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received recently about educational standards in Welsh primary and secondary schools.

In the course of the present national debate on education. many individuals and bodies have made known to us their views on standards. Full account will be taken of these in the forthcoming consultative document.

Does the Minister agree that examinations, when properly set, can play a part in the maintenance of standards? Is he aware of Press criticisms of the recent CSE English paper, which is probably more suited to be a trade test for prison service than an English examination for schools? Is he satisfied that the WJEC is making the maximum contribution to the maintenance of standards in our schools?

We have no responsibility for the WJEC, which has a fine reputation. As for the specific examination paper to which the hon. Gentleman referred, I have seen it and it is not the sort of paper I should like a child of mine to sit. To put it mildly, it caused me great astonishment and I would rather that the paper had not been set.

Within the structure of the WJEC, is not the setting of this type of paper the responsibility of the teachers' panel? Can the Minister say who could look into the setting of this particular examination paper, of which I am delighted to hear he so strongly disapproves?

The hon. Gentleman might wish to ask the WJEC about how the paper got out. I would reassure him that I take the same view as he does. It was a macabre theme and in the widest sense quite tasteless.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further proposals he has to commit additional funds to the Welsh Development Agency; and if he will make a statement.

My hon. Friend will recall that as recently as last December additional resources were allocated to the Welsh Development Agency, amounting to £2·5 million in each of the years 1977–78 and 1978–79. There are no plans to allocate further additional funds to the Agency, whose resources in the current year exceed £34 million, but its budget will be kept under review.

In view of the improvement in the economy and the Government's desire to get investment into manufacturing industries, will the Secretary of State consider exerting pressure to give additional resources to the National Enterprise Board and the Welsh Development Agency to ensure that this investment is brought forward?

I know of my hon. Friend's anxiety about the WDA. I can assure him that potential constraints are not at present a limiting factor in the Agency's performance in industrial investment. It has recently announced a land clearance programme of £15 million over three years. That is the largest programme of that sort ever undertaken, it being almost double the previous one which was announced in 1974 of £8 million. Its advance factory programme is about £4 million, which is again larger than the one it announced previously.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what steps he is taking to speed up the printing of Select Committee reports.

These reports are produced by the St. Stephen's Parliamentary Press and by commercial contractors. The arrangements are kept under continuous review by Her Majesty's Stationery Office.

Is the Minister aware that the Fifth and Sixth Reports of the Select Committee on Expenditure are not estimated to be published for up to 10 weeks after they were laid on the Table, and that his noble Friend in another place said at column 877 of the Official Report of 23rd June 1977 that they were expected within "two or three weeks" from a particular date—namely, the end of this week? What will the hon. Gentleman do to ensure that the House is not treated in a cavalier fashion by the printing authorities, whether they are under our control or are private contractors?

I accept the sense of frustration that the hon. Gentleman has expressed about the delay incurred in the printing of the Select Committee's reports. I hope that he and other hon. Members will appreciate that in recent years there has been an appreciable increase in the volume of Select Committee reports. During 1972 the number of pages of Select Committee reports was 7,513. By 1976 the volume had increased to 11,076. That is the extent and volume of the problem. We are seeking in a variety of different ways to deal with the problem and to reduce delays to an absolute minimum.

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is considerable feeling among hon. Members who spend a great deal of time on Select Committees preparing reports on topical subjects that we have to wait three to four months before the reports are printed? Is it not possible for an early decision to be made on new printing capacity for the House so that the delays can be considerably reduced?

I agree with my hon. Friend that we need an early decision by the House on new printing capacity for St. Stephen's Parliamentary Press. However, I hope he will accept that over recent years the printing workers at St. Stephen's Press have done a tremendous job in dealing with the increased volume of printing.

The Minister said that Her Majesty's Stationery Office has kept an overall view of these matters. In view of the industrial dispute at Her Majesty's Stationery Office, precisely what are he and his right hon. Friend doing to bring the matter to a speedy conclusion because of the problems that it is causing not only to the House but to outside authorities?

My right hon. Friend and I do everything conceivable to resolve industrial difficulties at St. Stephen's Press. [HON. MEMBERS: "Such as?"] The reports of some Select Committees and a number of other reports have gone out to private printers. At present over 30 per cent. of the Select Committee reports are printed in the private sector.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that we have quite enough to read already and that there is no hurry to print any more reports? In any case, is it not a fact that after the reports are printed it will be months or years before the Government do anything about them?

I cannot accept the second of my hon. Friend's thoughts, but I endorse the first.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible date.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is satisfied that the figure of 1¾ per cent. deduction from Civil Service salaries for inflation-proofing of pensions remains correct at a time of 18 per cent. per annum inflation.

It is totally mistaken to think that a civil servant pays only 1·75 per cent. of his salary for an inflation-proofing pension. This deduction is only one of the deductions made from civil servants' pay on account of their pensions and it cannot be reviewed in isolation from other aspects of Civil Service pay and pensions. No general review is possible while pay research is suspended as part of the Government's policy against inflation.

I have a feeling that I have heard that answer before from the Minister. Is it not correct that the deduction for inflation-proofing of the pension is 1¾ per cent.? Is it not also correct that, based on the three years of inflation since the Labour Government came to office, the deduction of inflation-proofing should be in excess for 20 per cent.? Does not this represent a great subsidy of Civil Service salaries which in the end, directly or indirectly, is paid for by the taxpayer?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is in error to suggest that the deduction should be as high as 20 per cent. merely because the inflation rate at some time or other might be moving at that rate. The Government Actuary gave a figure of 3 per cent. to the Select Committee on Public Expenditure.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, despite the sniping from the Opposition on this issue, the people have welcomed the upholding of the pledges on pensions, not only in the public sector but in respect of old-age pensions generally, in the announcements of recent weeks? Will he tell us what response he has had from the trade unions and public service pensioners to the Prime Minister's announcement a few weeks ago?

I have received appreciable appreciation from the trade unions, Government pensioners and pensioners generally for the fact that the Government have honoured their undertaking to act in a fair and reasonable manner in respect of their position as an employer vis-æ-vis civil servants.

Does it remain Government policy that inflation-proofing should extend only to public service pensions, or do the Government recommend that private pensions should be equally inflation-proofed? In the latter event, has any guidance been given as to where private fund managers can invest for a return of 18 per cent.?

I accept that the hon. Gentleman is very knowledgeable about financial matters in the private sector. I wish that occasionally he did not demonstrate his obsession in relation to the Civil Service. I suggest that occasionally he looks at the Inland Revenue rules and the pensions enjoyed by many chairmen and executives of individual private companies who can receive pensions which represent two-thirds of their gross pay for as a little as 10 years' service. That is a state of affairs to which many civil servants would aspire.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he remains satisfied with present Whitley procedures on all matters affecting the Civil Service; and if he will make a statement.

I am satisfied that the Whitley system in the Civil Service is as good an industrial relations system as anywhere in the country. The system has developed and improved over the past 50 years or so in response to changing circumstances and I have no doubt that this process of evolution will continue.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the current structure of Whitley Councils is flexible enough to take account of the growing industrial elements within the Civil Service and some of the problems that are created by the increase of industrial employment within it, as well as some other elements? Does he believe that the system is sufficiently flexible to take account of all these matters?

As a former civil servant, I can tell my hon. Friend that the Whitley system of joint consultation was established and introduced in 1919 as a framework to secure the greatest measure of co-operation between the State, as employer, and its civil servants in matters affecting the Civil Service. The essence of the Whitley system of joint consultation is flexibility. I am confident that it will be equal to the burdens that have recently been imposed upon it.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what was the number of civil servants on the latest available date; and what was the number, on a comparable basis, on 1st March 1974.

Civil Service numbers are published in the "Monthly Digest of Statistics", copies of which are available in the Library. The latest figures show that the number of civil servants on 1st April 1977 was 745,600. On 1st March 1974 the comparable figure was 697,100.

What steps will the hon. Gentleman and the Government take to reduce the disquieting increase in the number of wealth consumers and expand the number of wealth creators?

The hon. Gentleman seems to have overlooked the statement made in July of last year in which we indicated that the Government were concerned about public expenditure on Government administration and were introducing reductions in the amount of public expenditure on manpower. It is envisaged that the reductions that were announced at that time will reduce the Civil Service by about 46,000—namely, 26,000 in the whole of the Civil Departments and about 20,000 in the Ministry of Defence.

May I ask the Government not to fix their mind too rigidly on the numbers of civil servants, bearing in mind that there are ways of increasing revenue, for example, which are highly desirable but can take place and produce a net benefit to the Exchequer only if we are prepared to contemplate an increase in respect of those particular items?

I certainly accept the point made by my hon. Friend. I hope that he and the House accept that the size of the Civil Service is related to the tasks that the House gives it to undertake.

Will the Minister say whether there has been an increase in the numbers employed by the hived-off agencies which used to be considered as part of the Civil Service—for example, the Manpower Services Commission and such bodies—in addition to this substantial increase in the number of civil servants?

I do not have the figures for individual Government agencies immediately at my finger-tips, but I shall be happy to provide them for the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Lord President of the Council what action has been taken to implement the recommendations of the report of the committee of inquiry into the House of Commons Refreshment Department, bearing in mind the comment of the committee on the non-implementation of four previous reports.

As I have already informed my hon. Friend on 5th July, I consider that the first priority should be to introduce a system of budgetary control in the Refreshment Department as recommended by the committee of inquiry. When this has been established, we can consider the other aspects of the report.

Does my right hon. Friend feel that, in order to deal with what was described in the report as the mournful catalogue of ills, it is necessary to elevate the status of catering in the House to have a Department accountable to Mr. Speaker?

I certainly agree that that has to be done. We hope in the next Session that the new House of Commons Commission, recommended by the Bottomley Commission, can be proceeded with and that this matter can then be dealt with.

During the interim period, what steps does my right hon. Friend popose to take to improve the lot of the extremely hard-working and often greatly over-worked but much appreciated members of the refreshment staff?

If representations are made to those responsible, we shall do our very best to deal with any aspect that is raised on that matter. I think that it is right to have a discussion in the House on proposals for changing the services to hon. Members before we proceed with any of the recommendations in the further report.

Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that these five reports are likely to be discussed before the General Election in 1979

Among other enticements to assist us in doing that is ensuring that my hon. Friend will be able to make a full contribution to the debate.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will review his practice of placing motions on EEC documents on the Order Paper without advance notice in the Remaining Orders of the Day.

The practice in tabling motions on EEC documents is the same as for other parliamentary business.

Does my right hon. Friend understand that that was a very disappointing answer? Is he aware that motions dealing with EEC documents can be simply to take note or qualified, and that unless the Government table them two or three days in advance of the debate it is impossible for hon. Members to consider what action they may take? Will he reconsider the matter and perhaps table such motions on the Thursday or Friday of the week in which they are announced?

My reply may have been disappointing to my hon. Friend, but it is the truth. We are following the normal practice of the House in these matters. If we were to make a change in the procedure—I am not necessarily saying that it should not be done—it would have to be considered by one of the Committees of the House. If my hon. Friend wishes that to be done, I shall certainly look into it. At the moment, we are following the general practice of the House.

May I ask the Lord President not to take the easy way out? We know that what he is saying on this occasion is the truth, but the fact is that it is an unsatisfactory truth. Will he please take immediate steps to ask the Sessional Committee on Procedure whether it thinks that the practice should be changed?

It is not merely on this occasion that I am pronouncing the truth from the Dispatch Box. It is the same as on all previous and on any future occasions. I am prepared to consider whether this matter should be referred to the Procedure Committee. However, I hope that hon. Members realise that this matter raises the much wider question of how motions are to be put down generally.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he is satisfied with the progress of the Government's legislative programme as announced in the Queen's Speech; and if he will make a statement.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 16th June to a question by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas).

Will the Lord President confirm that the Government have now dropped their proposals to take the ship repairing industry into public ownership and to introduce a Bill to remove the restrictions on local authorities to employ direct labour in the construction industry? Will he also tell the House whether, if those measures have been dropped, it is in deference to the alliance with the Liberal Bench or for what other reasons the Government are abandoning their commitments in the Queen's Speech?

Neither of those propositions would stand much chance of getting through the House if we sought to introduce them this Session. We are applying common sense to the position. As for the next and subsequent Sessions, I invite the hon. Gentleman and the House to await the two Queen's Speeches which will follow.

Although there is clearly much to approve and to jettison in the content of the legislative programme, may I ask whether the Lord President has yet given his attention to the recent publication of Sir William Gale's book suggesting possible methods for improving the drafting, formulation and consideration of legislation?

There is not only the proposal to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers but there are the recommendations made by the Renton Committee on the subject. The Government have taken account of all those recommendations. I am sure that those discussions will be of considerable help to the parliamentary draftsmen, who are the most important people in some respects in helping and assisting the House. We are always eager to see whether we can improve the drafting of parliamentary legislation.

asked the Lord President of the Council what further consideration he is giving to holding referenda in Scotland and Wales on devolution for both countries prior to the introduction of legislation; and if he will make a statement.

I have nothing to add to the reply my right hon. Friend gave my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) on 14th June.

Is the Minister still saying that the Government are unable to devise a suitable question unless it is attached to a specific legislative proposal? Does he remain fully satisfied that he is in possession of accurate knowledge about the views of the people of Scotland on this question?

I make a firm judgment, which is based on some direct experience of their views on the desirability of devolution as many of them are my own constituents. The hon. Gentleman has suggested on previous occasions and in this Question that there might be what is called a pre-Bill referendum. The objections that we have previously outlined about the imprecise nature of the question and the effect that subsequent parliamentary amendments would have in the passage of the legislation still remain compelling.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he is considering making the system of regional list voting applicable to the Assemblies under the devolution Bill.

I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 23rd March.

Will the Minister of State ask his right hon. Friend the Lord President whether he voted against the Bill on direct elections because he does not believe in Parliaments and Assemblies—other than Westminster—or because he does not believe in proportional representation, or both?

I do not think that that matter arises as a proper supplementary question to the Question put down by the hon. Gentleman. If he reflects on the Question, he will realise the absurdity of suggesting the regional list system for any devolved Assembly.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a further statement on the Government's policy with regard to devolution.

I have nothing to add to my right hon. Friend's statement to the House on 14th June.

When is the promised paper on fiscal powers for the Assemblies to be published? Does the Minister accept that it is possible to devolve such powers, as in Europe and the United States, if the will exists? Why should the Assemblies not have responsibility for raising as well as spending money?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is anticipating a lot of the arguments which will take place during the passage of the legislation in the next Session of Parliament. There will be a statement on devolution before the House rises for the Summer Recess. On the question of fiscal policy, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should be careful about drawing parallels with systems which are quite unlike our own.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for increasing time available on the Floor of the Commons next Session for Private Members' Bills and motions.

None.

That is disappointing. Does my right hon. Friend realise that there will be ample scope for increasing Private Members' time on motions next Session and that this will be a time for him to exert his well-known championship of the rights of the Private Member?

When we come to the next Session, and, I expect, the subsequent Session, we propose that we should provide the same amount of Private Members' time as has been provided by successive Governments for a number of years. My hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) is a great exponent of the art, and I can assure him that there will be plenty of opportunity for discussion of Private Members' Bills.

In view of the fact that there might not be a next Session, will the Leader of the House give an assurance that Private Members' Bills which may even today be returning from the other place with Lords amendments to be considered here will be given a great deal of consideration and time during the current Session?

All these Bills will be given the normal treatment. As to the fantasies about the next Session, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that not one hon. Member will be led astray by such a hyperbolical statement.

Will my right hon. Friend promise that before he tables the motion next Session about Private Members' Bills and motions he will consult hon. Members in all parts of the House, particularly about the division between the time given to Bills and the time given to motions? Does he agree that Private Members' Bill time usually results in something whereas Private Members' motions usually result in absolutely nothing?

There is a good deal in what my hon. Friend says. I am prepared to consult to see whether we can alter the balance. If that were to be done, it would have to be done with the concurrence of Private Members generally. I shall consult before the next Session.

Has the Leader of the House yet managed to work out how many Private Members' Bills have been aided by Government time since 1964? Is it not wrong that major social issues such as abortion cannot be provided with adequate time without Government assistance? How does he propose to remedy that situation in the next Session?

I should not comment on a Bill that is going through. It is right for the Government to apply normal procedures to the allocation of time. That is what we have been doing. If we were to do what some hon. Members and newspapers have urged—if the Government were to intervene on this particular Bill in the way suggested—that would involve a serious infringement of the rights of other hon. Members. If the House wants to change the whole procedure of Private Members' Bills, that is one thing, but they should not ask me to change the procedure on a particular occasion and then attack me not having changed the procedure to suit a particular circumstance.