asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to visit a marginal hill farm in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

It is my intention to visit a number of farms in the coming months. As the hon. Member knows, my right hon. and learned Friend and his agricultural colleagues are currently considering a report by officials on the position of farmers on poor land outside the less-favoured areas.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his reply, but, in view of the present crisis, what specific plans has he to help the marginal farmer? Does he agree that one way to help the marginal farmers would be to devalue the green pound by 10 per cent.?

I understand that in the coming few days the House is likely to have a fairly lengthy discussion on the question of the green pound, and I should not like to prejudge what may be said then. The potential for the use of marginal land is being actively considered in the current review of "Food from Our Own Resources".

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if he visits the marginal farms he will find that they are heavily discriminated against, especially in comparison with the upland farms and the prosperous lowland farms? The beef subsidy has been done away with and the other subsidies are to be reduced. In particular, we are badly in need of more lime on the marginal land, which uses five times more lime than land in the eastern part of the country. This cannot he done through a projected plan. Will the Minister note this?

Order. I hope that all hon. Members will make an effort to be as brief as they can be today.

I am aware of the problems of marginal land. That is why the Agriculture Departments produced a report on the issue.

What action does my hon. Friend propose to take to mitigate the circumstances in which the French are putting a levy on our lamb exports, which has a detrimental effect on our hill farmers? Has my hon. Friend any ideas about assistance for our beef producers in addition to some devaluation of the green pound?

I have already mentioned the matter of the green pound. There is a specific Question later on the Order Paper dealing with the French-Irish consideration.

I welcome what the hon. Gentleman has said about a re-examination. Does he agree that there is nothing final about the present definition of "less favoured areas," and that some of our marginal areas are less well treated than comparable land in Europe? There is a need to re-examine this question to see whether we can have a better definition than we have now.

There is certainly room to look at this matter again. I have indicated that we are considering it. The Government will announce their intentions and views on the report as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in view of the similarity in terms of reference and activities between the British Tourist Authority and the Wales Tourist Board, economies in public expenditure could be effected by eliminating the Wales Tourist Board as a separate organisation.

No. The Wales Tourist Board's responsibilities are different from those of the British Tourist Authority. We have certainly no intention of winding up the Board.

In view of the proliferation of QUANGOs in recent years, does not the hon. Gentleman think that the time has come to examine all such bodies to see whether they can be reduced in numbers where duplication occurs? In view of what the hon. Gentleman has just said, will he say what function the Wales Tourist Board carries out that would be impossible for the British Tourist Authority within its terms of reference?

It would be putting back the clock if the hon. Gentleman had his way. What he proposes would not be acceptable to the people of Wales. In 1976 Wales earned about £300 million from tourism, including about £50 million from overseas visitors. The money invested in the Wales Tourist Board is well invested.

Does the Under-Secretary agree that tourism is a very important industry to us in Wales and that on the whole the Board is doing and has done a very good job in promoting it?

The Board is doing an excellent job, and I commend its work to every hon. Member It is often instrumental in creating jobs in rural areas which would otherwise have no hope.

Is the Under-Secretary aware of the British Tourist Authority office that is reported to have a map of Wales upside down in its window? In those circumstances, does he think that any change should be in the direction of giving the Board more responsibility for promoting Wales overseas?

I certainly believe that the Board has put Wales on the world tourist map. It is a thundering success.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many completed advance factories in Wales remain unlet; and what is the average number of employees working in advance factories completed since February 1974.

Of the 91 advance factories, including nursery units, completed since February 1974, 45 have been let; a further 22 have been provisionally allocated or are subject to current applications; 24 factories remain unlet with tenants being actively sought.

In view of those unsatisfactory figures, and as any major increase in new jobs is likely to come not in manufacturing industry but elsewhere, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman consider that he has placed too much emphasis on the building of advance factories as a means of reducing unemployment?

I accept that if we are to make a substantial indent in unemployment it will come from the general improvement in the economy of this country, and that is what we are beginning to see. If the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that I should withdraw the increased programme of advance factories that we have launched upon, I believe that he is in a minority in the House and certainly in a minority in Wales.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, while we recognise the need for different durations of free rent for factories built in Wales in the special development areas and development areas, there is a certain amount of disquiet about the way this system is operated in some areas? Can he tell us the criteria that he is prepared to use in providing extensive free-rent facilities to factories in areas of high unemployment which may not necessarily be quite within special development areas?

My hon. Friend has written to me on this, and I sent him a very detailed reply which I thought went a great deal of the way to satisfying him on the criteria.

Has the Secretary of State had any recent discussions with the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales about the setting up of wholly-owned direct subsidiaries of the Welsh Development Agency in areas of advance factory development? Is he aware that a factory at Blaenau Ffestiniog of 50,000 sq. ft. is still lying vacant? Will he seek more imaginative ways of public enterprise to bring industry into that type of situation?

I am always happy that more imaginative types of public enterprise should be instituted, either on my suggestion or on that of either of the boards. I realise that the problem of this factory has defied solution for many years. The hon. Gentleman will be encouraged by the recent success of the Development Board for Rural Wales in the Penrhyndeudraeth area. After a great deal of effort, it has succeeded in getting a tenant there. We are seeking to ensure that we try, using every possible means, to bring tenants to advance factories.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the sum of £320 million intended to be used to conserve energy will be allocated to Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The hon. Member will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy is primarily responsible for this programme. About £11 million will be spent in Wales on programmes falling within my right hon. and learned Friend's responsibility; but the total expenditure will be somewhat higher as other Departments will also be responsible for expenditure in Wales.

Can the Minister say in what part of Wales this will predominantly be deployed?

Yes. The money that is being allocated will mean that over the next four years we shall be spending, on average, £1 million on housing, £1·2 million on education and £0·55 million per annum on health. The actual amounts will vary year by year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he proposes to take to protect Welsh ratepayers in any changeover to a capital value basis of revaluation.

It is our intention that when capital valuation is introduced provision should be made for the phasing-in of any changes in rate bills resulting from the capital value basis. Should extreme cases arise, permanent arrangements to mitigate the effects may be made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that most informed observers in Wales believe that the new basis of valuation could have disastrous effects in the Principality unless there was not just a phasing-in but a permanent protection for Welsh ratepayers? What permanent proposals does the Minister have to protect the totality of Welsh ratepayers?

We are aware of the feelings that exist in Wales on this matter. It does not appear that it will be possible to introduce the necessary legislation to give effect to capital valuation during the lifetime of this Parliament. For that reason, and because of representations being made, the Government are to consider the position in the light of the parliamentary situation and in the light of comments which my hon. Friend and others have made on this proposal.

Since in the last part of his answer the Minister is seeking to give the impression that he is re-examining the whole question, may I say that we in the Opposition regard the proposal as retrograde. particularly for Wales? Will not the Minister look at the whole scheme again and consider whether it would not be more sensible to drop it?

I have clearly indicated that the Government are considering the proposal in the light of all the developments.

Will the Minister take on board that areas in which people have second homes—and tourist areas—will be hit very badly by this sort of proposal?

Naturally, all those factors will be taken into account.

Since the rate support grant is the greatest single source of income for the people of Wales from governmental sources, has the Minister made any calculation of what a change in the system might mean in terms of devolution?

No, because the question of devolution is not intimately linked to a change in the level of rate support grant. The allocation of a block grant would be at the discretion of the Assembly.

In the reconsideration which the Minister says is now taking place, will he and his right hon. and learned Friend take account of the fact that this proposal would appear almost certainly to impinge more harshly upon many ratepayers? Is he aware that what is needed is something that will hurt them less in some circumstances, as the present system is grotesquely unfair in its incidence?

I do not think that the domestic ratepayer in Wales would consider that the present system is grotesquely unfair, as the domestic ratepayer in Wales—thanks to this Government—benefits from the domestic element to the extent of 36·5p in the pound as opposed to 18p in England.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether his Department will undertake a survey into the extent and causes of rent arrears amongst the district council housing authorities of Wales.

It has already been arranged that such a survey shall be carried out in England and Wales this year by the Institute of Housing. I am grateful to the Institute for offering to undertake this survey.

Will the Minister confirm or deny that in the first place the Welsh Office refused to undertake such a survey as is being undertaken by the Department of the Environment because of staffing problems? If so, is this a general problem? What does he intend to do about it?

We have had lengthy discussions, naturally, on the question of the survey and what it should contain, when it should take place and who should finance it. I am delighted that the decision has been made to go ahead with a survey to give us the sort of information which will be of help.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning responsibility for the Cleddau Bridge; and if he will make a statement.

Over a period of time a number of suggestions have been made aimed at reducing the debt charges falling on the highway authority, but we have been unable to agree to any of them.

Is the Minister aware that by next year Dyfed will have spent no less than £6½ million on interest alone, for which the Government should have accepted responsibility, on the cost of the Cleddau Bridge? Is he aware that there would be a great outcry if this money had been spent on creating jobs in Dyfed, for instance, in making available bilingual signs?

The hon. Gentleman might recollect that three deputations from Dyfed have been seen by Ministers. Taking into account the payment of the needs and the resources elements to local authorities in Dyfed, already nearly 3p in every 4p of the net loss on the bridge is met by the Government.

Does the Minister agree that a very heavy burden is falling on both the users and the ratepayers? Is it not a good principle that if an unforeseen disaster occurs the burden should be spread as widely as possible? Will not the Minister again reconsider the recommendation of his own inspector, after a full public inquiry, to transfer the additional cost to the general taxpayer instead of the ratepayer? In the long run, something will have to be done. Why does the Minister put off the decision?

I reiterate that this Department has seen three deputations from Dyfed in the lifetime of this Administration. If the hon. Gentleman can bring forward new facts, we shall consider the matter again.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many letters he has received in favour of and against the proposals for devolution as set out in the Wales Bill.

Among the letters I have received seeking clarification or making general comments on the provisions of the Wales Bill, two have been broadly in favour and two broadly against.

Do those figures suggest to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that there is an overwhelming majority in Wales in favour of the Bill?

We must wait for the referendum to discover that.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, although there may be an articulate minority demanding a Welsh Assembly—although it does not appear to be writing letters—there is also a large, silent majority opposed to the establishment of an Assembly? Will he consider putting the issue to the test by holding a consultative referendum before we discuss the Wales Bill? Would it not be possible in that way to test the wishes of the Welsh people and then decide what to do in the House?

My hon. Friend has argued in that way before. I thought that he was one of the protagonists of a referendum on the Bill. He is getting a referendum. He ought to be satisfied.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take this opportunity to say whether a special arrangement has been reached with the Heron Corporation for additional office space to be taken in Cardiff for the Welsh Assembly?

I am not aware of any such development. That would be a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, who is responsible for the Property Services Agency.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that of all the Questions tabled today perhaps only one—that concerning energy conservation—would be allowable if the Assembly were in being? In the light of that, will my right hon. and learned Friend comment on the role of Members of Parliament representing Welsh constituencies if the Assembly were to come into being?

I invite my hon. Friend to look at the Questions that have been tabled today and suggest that he does his homework a little better. There are six or seven dealing with agriculture alone.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consideration he has given to the effect on employment in Wales of the continuing crisis in British Leyland.

There are four British Leyland plants in Wales. Many other firms supply components to the vehicle industry. The future level of employment in these plants, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom, will depend on the efforts being made to put the company on a long-term viable commercial footing.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the problem is that, even if British Leyland is to survive, it will be only on the grounds of massively increased productivity which will in turn lead to certain redundancies?

That is a question primarily for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. I am sure that the hon. Member will find it encouraging to know that the Rover works at Cardiff has increased both its capacity and the work force and will, I understand, be taking on further employees shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he has made of the effect on Welsh sheep farming of the agreement between the French and Irish Governments on the export of Irish sheepmeat.

It is too early to estimate the precise effect of heightened discrimination against United Kingdom lamb exports to France.

Is the Minister not aware that already this week there has been a severe decline in the price of lamb in some markets, including those in my constituency? Will he give an assurance that the Government will now move positively to discuss a European Community régime for sheepmeat? Will he ensure that discrimination against Welsh lamb producers is no longer tolerated by the Government?

The Government are certainly aware of the problem. Since I spent last Friday evening in Anglesey, the hon. Gentleman can be assured that the farmers there reminded me of this point, if I needed reminding. Similarly, we are aware of the importance attached to liberalising intra-Community trade by those wishing to export sheepmeat to France. The Government have already said that they are ready to reach agreement on proposals for a sheepmeat régime as long as this pays due regard to the interests of United Kingdom consumers and producers and takes into account our need for imported supplies.

Is the Minister in a position to give an assurance to Welsh sheep farmers that if ever we have a sheepmeat régime in Europe the Government will do their utmost to safeguard the interests of farmers by making sure that the guaranteed deficiency payments scheme will be retained, because it has served this country well in the past 20 years?

In an earlier reply I said that it was the intention of the Government, in any sheepmeat régime, to safeguard the interests of Welsh farmers—indeed, the interests of all farmers in the United Kingdom. We shall ensure that they are adequately protected.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that we should emulate the boldness of those good Europeans, the French, and break the rules selectively?

I am not so sure that it is wise to advocate playing a game and then to break every rule that exists. I remind my hon. Friend that the United Kingdom acted pretty speedily and sent a memorandum to the EEC Commission asking it to take action to bring to an end this discrimination against United Kingdom lamb exports.

Is the Minister aware that when I was in Brussels the official who is the head of the agriculture department there told me that the British Government had made no effort whatever to secure any kind of regulation for sheepmeat in the EEC? Does the Minister realise that this official told me that it was Ireland that had made all the running? Ireland is lucky to have its own Government.

Of course I do not know what any individual might have told the hon. Gentleman in Brussels on any occasion. What I have said is that the Government are clearly prepared to come to an agreement on sheepmeat provided that the essential conditions concerning the protection of consumers, producers and imports are met.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with house building starts in Wales in 1977.

No. Total house building starts in Wales to the end of November 1977, which is the latest date for which figures are so far available, were 11,220. This compares with 14,765 in the corresponding 11 months of 1976. I am disappointed at the reduction, but I am gratified to note that as far as the public sector is concerned the 1977 level is still far higher than the 1973 level.

Does the Minister accept the forecast that the housing figures for 1977 will be the lowest for two decades? If he does, may I ask whether he considers it to be a true reflection of housing demand in the Principality?

There are differences between housing demand in the Principality and our capacity to meet the demand. I recently met representatives of every housing authority in Wales and urged them to do more to meet the housing needs of the people of Wales than they seem to have done in the earlier part of the year. It is a little early to know anything about the extent of the increase, but there is some evidence of increased necessary expenditure on housing in the current year.

Can the Minister tell us what he believes would be an annual target figure for house building in Wales to meet the need?

I do not think that it is possible to do that because I do not believe that there is at the moment an effective and accurate estimate of the housing need. That is why we have said to housing authorities in Wales that as from April 1979 we shall wish to move towards housing investment programmes, using the coming year as an interim step during which we can better ascertain and begin to meet the housing needs of the people of Wales.

Does the Minister agree that one of the reasons for the deplorable housing figures in 1977 was the sharp decline in the private house building sector?

There has certainly been a decline in the private sector. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt agree that, as a result of the Government's economic policies, mortgage interest rates have fallen. I believe that house building, even in the private sector, will soon pick up.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further action is proposed to encourage the Welsh Development Agency and other Government bodies to create employment opportunities in Wales, particularly the valleys of South Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I am in regular touch with the Welsh Development Agency, the Manpower Services Commission and other bodies concerned with the whole range of measures designed to create employment opportunities in Wales. In addition, I shall use to the full my powers under Section 7 of the Industry Act to stimulate further employment. The enhanced Section 7 incentives now available for special development areas will be of particular value to the valleys of South Wales.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that unemployment remains the perennial problem in Wales, as well as in the rest of Britain? While supporting the excellent work done by the Welsh Development Agency during the first 12 months of its existence, will my right hon. and learned Friend support the call by the Mid-Glamorgan authority in the Principality to have a conference on unemployment to see how the problem can be dealt with? Will he look at the proposals put forward by the TUC in Wales regarding positive employment creation?

Certainly the WDA, coupled with my own powers under Section 7 of the Industry Act, is a major weapon that we have in order to meet what I would agree with my hon. Friend are unemployment figures that are far too high.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the WDA has been in existence for two years, and not for 12 months, and that in this time we might have expected it to use many of the powers in the Act? In particular, does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman feel that it should have used its powers to set up public sector ventures and joint ventures very much more than has been done?

I certainly agree with regard to the period for which the WDA has been in existence. In that time it has increased substantially its factory building. That was not welcomed by some hon. Members in one part of the House. In 1977 the WDA announced 173 new factories, and a number in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdare (Mr. Evans). I think that the number there, in the Cynon Valley, is about nine that have been announced in the course of last year, including a very large one in Hirwaun. But, as regards particular projects, what the WDA has been doing more and more is taking up joint ventures or giving significant loans to companies right across Wales. This has been increasing significantly as the months have gone by. I welcome it very much and give it every encouragement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the present condition of Welsh agriculture.

Last week's Annual Review White Paper shows that the industry generally made a dramatic recovery from the setbacks caused by the adverse weather conditions of 1975 and 1976 and that it is overall in good health.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there will be astonishment among Welsh farmers at the complacency shown in his reply? Is he also aware of the grave damage done to Welsh farmers by the green pound distortion? Surely it cannot be in the long-term interests of consumers that our agriculture industry should have to labour under this unique handicap, and that what was intended to be a temporary protection against exchange rate fluctuation should be used as a long-term means of subsidising both consumers and foreign food imports at the expense of Welsh—and British—farmers.

The hon. Gentleman used the word "astonishment". I presume that he couples himself with that expression regarding Welsh farmers. On that basis, it is obvious that he has not done his homework. He must do it a little better. He will find in the increases in the average weighted net income for Wales, published for last year, that the figures for Wales are significantly and substantially higher than they are for England. When one adds up the totality of increase for England, one finds that it is plus 4 per cent. net income, but for Wales it is plus 28 per cent. I invite the hon. Gentleman to read the document published last year.

Is the Secretary of State aware that it is a widespread view among farmers in Wales that the Conservatives are always much more concerned about agriculture when they are in Opposition than when they are in Government? Having said that, however, is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there is an equally widely held view among Welsh farmers at present that the devaluation of the green pound is now long overdue? May we take it that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is exercising all the influence that he can in the Cabinet to bring that about?

The hon. and learned Gentleman has put his finger on the attitude of Conservative spokesmen. I recall fairly fierce contests when the Conservatives announced some of their miserable Price Review determinations. However, what I have said is that it should be right and proper for the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards), if he sets himself up as Opposition spokesman on Welsh agriculture, to have regard to what has been happening. I invite him to look at the White Paper published last year and each sector—specialist dairy, mainly dairy, and, dare I mention the word, sheep. I invite him to look at the totality to see how the general agriculture situation stands.

Can the Secretary of State give any estimate of the number of independent producer-retailers of milk who are likely to be forced out of business in 1980 by the ban on the sale of untreated milk, the treatment of which they will not be able to afford?

I do not have such an estimate. We are looking at this point. I am aware of the concern. Only last Friday I met a delegation from the Farmers' Union of Wales which also expressed concern about that.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales on what basis housing finance allocations for 1978–79 have been made.

For work on new house building, improvements and acquisitions, my right hon. and learned Friend has agreed to authorities proceeding with the whole of the programmes which they have notified to me.

Can my hon. Friend assure me that he has adequate machinery for monitoring on a month-to-month basis the expenditure of the allocations made to ensure that the full amount is spent during the course of this year? Further, will he consider the possibility of setting up special allocations to local authorities to deal with the homelessness question, which is a new venture for the district councils?

Certainly monitoring is a very important issue. It is one of the factors drawn to our attention in the report of the working party last year. It is because of the improvement in our monitoring service that I was able to urge local authorities to increase their expenditure on housing need in Wales in this coming year.

Will not the Minister now accept that the cuts in housing expenditure in Wales centrally imposed on housing authorities by the Welsh Office played havoc last year and the year before in meeting housing need? Will he now repudiate the whitewash job by his Department and the Welsh Council last year in the so-called consultative document on housing finance in Wales?

I certainly do not repudiate the report. It was drawn up by a committee, half the members of which were elected members and officers of local authorities, who probably know a great deal more about housing in Wales and the practical day-to-day problems than either the hon. Gentleman or myself. Concerning cuts in the allocation, it seems to me that in this current year no reduction in public expenditure has been a factor in reducing house building. It is our inability to use the resources that the Government have made available.

asked the Secretary of States for Industry if terms are available to British shipowners, as good as those offered to Polish shipowners, regarding Government assistance.

Yes, Sir. A similar scale of Government-supported credit and assistance from the Intervention Fund would be available for an order from a British owner in appropriate circumstances.

Is the Minister aware that a group of people who contacted me were put in touch by me, through his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry, with British Shipbuilders and have had a discussion on this question, but they have described the meeting to me as amiable but vague? Will the Minister invite British Shipbuilders to lay down clearly, or do so himself, for all customers or potential customers, what terms are available under the Intervention Fund so that potential customers may know whether they can give serious consideration to having ships built by British Shipbuilders?

I am sure that the hon. Member will appreciate that the Intervention Fund is essentially a flexible instrument, but, if he would care to let me or British Shipbuilders have further details of the particular case that he has raised, it would be looked into.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade whether, in view of the similarity in terms of reference and activities between the British Tourist Authority and the English Tourist Board, economies in public expenditure could be affected by eliminating the English Tourist Board as a separate organisation.

The premise in the Question is incorrect. The British Tourist Authority is mainly concerned with overseas promotion in respect of the whole of Britain whereas the English Tourist Board directs its different and specialised expertise towards encouraging tourism in England, both in promotion and the provision and improvement of tourist amenities and facilities.

Does the Minister consider that the United Kingdom is so unprepossessing that it requires no fewer than four national bodies, with four separate secretariats and four budgets, to promote tourism both in and to the United Kingdom?

Yes. The functions of each of the bodies are quite different. The three national tourist boards have very different functions from that of the BTA. As to the size of the budget, the total tourism budget is under £20 million, and our earnings from overseas tourism are £2,000 million, so it is a very good buy.

Is the Minister aware that the proposals in the Scotland Bill radically change the constitution and will therefore radically change the role of the BTA? Many people in the industry are very concerned about this, particularly the possibility of this matter going through the House without there being any debate whatsoever. Will the Minister use what influence he has to ensure that the matter is debated in the House at the earliest opportunity?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will do all that he can to ensure that the matter is debated, although I think that that will partly depend on the Opposition. The role of the BTA is not changed by the Bill. We are talking now about the structure of the board, and that is a matter for discussion within the House.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many independent members, apart from the chairman, will now be appointed to the Pay Research Unit drawn from outside the Civil Service.

The chairman and four out of 10 members of the Pay Research Unit Board will be appointed from outside the Civil Service. Only the outside members will have voting rights. A proportion of the staff within the unit will also be recruited from outside the Civil Service.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is there not a danger of creating a smokescreen over this exercise by setting up a new supervisory board, to which independent members will be appointed, while leaving all the executive powers with the PRU itself, which will still have a civil servant as director? Is it not necessary that it should be seen that, say, 50 per cent. of the members of the PRU should be other than civil servants and that the director of the unit himself should not be a civil servant?

I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's argument. This is not an exercise in creating a smokescreen. The Government and the Civil Service unions have agreed on a comprehensive system for demonstrating the independence and impartiality of the Pay Research Unit procedure. The board of the PRU will itself have an independent element. The unit will report to the PRU Board, which will have a formidable independent element.

Will my right hon. Friend tell us whether there is any possibility, despite the setting up of the new unit, of getting an updating of the previous figures produced by the PRU? Does he not agree with me that it would be unfair on civil servants this year if they did not get pay settlements which bore at least some resemblance to settlements outside the public service?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern and the concern of civil servants generally. As I have explained previously, however, the PRU procedure takes over 12 months to carry out a full pay research exercise. The updating of current figures would not be practicable in that context.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we attach very high importance to the question of the independence of the PRU? Can he give some indication of what proportion of the PRU staff he expects to be recruited from outside the Civil Service?

At present we are hoping to recruit initially four of the 23 survey officers of the PRU itself. We are also hoping to recruit almost immediately an additional four technical advisers to the unit. Here again, even for the staffing of the unit we are concerned to introduce the independent element. The PRU Board, to which the unit will report, will comprise an independent chairman, four independent members, two official members, two members sponsored by the Civil Service unions and the director of the unit, who will be ex officio.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to receive the report of the Armitage Committee on the political activities of civil servants.

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in reply to a Question from my hon. Friend the Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Cartwright) on 16th December, he has received the Armitage Report. The report was published as Cmnd. 7057 on Wednesday 11th January.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that what is much more dangerous and undemocratic than open policical activity by civil servants is the behind-the-scenes way in which certain high-ranking civil servants try to dictate Government policy? For example, is it not deplorable that the economic strategy of a Labour Government should be largely influenced by the political prejudices of the mandarins of the Treasury, most of whom appear to be Right-wing Tories?

I suggest to my hon. Friend that his supplementary question bears no relation to the Question which he tabled. If he says that senior civil servants exercise an influence in the determination of policy, that is as much a comment on the Ministers who decide the policy as it is on the civil servants themselves.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is making any arrangements for recruitment into the administrative trainee grades of persons with experience outside the ranks of the Civil Service who are between 30 and 35 years of age.

No, Sir. The upper age limit for external recruitment to the administration trainee grade is 28. This is a training grade, and the entry is designed to bring into the Service young graduates of high quality who are expected to achieve the principal grade by their late 20s or early 30s. In so doing, the Civil Service practice is in line with that of most other major recruiters of graduates. There have been annual opportunities in recent years for those in their thirties to join the Administration Group as principals.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his reply, but will he tell us what are the numerical opportunities for persons joining as principals after the age of 30? When senior civil servants are having to deal with firms and bodies outside, is it not prima facie an advantage for a certain proportion of them to have had active experience in such firms and bodies before they take responsibility in Ministries?

I accept my hon. Friend's argument entirely. It is advantageous for civil servants to have experience of industry and the private sector generally. My hon. Friend referred to the promotion prospects of late entrants. Those who come in at principal level will have the same opportunities as other principals. I referred in my answer to the administrative training grade. That is only one way of entry. People above the age of 28 can come in at executive level, progress to HEO level and then seek entry to the internal administrative training grades.

In an age in which we have tried to legislate against sex and race discrimination, is it not unacceptable that the Civil Service should still practise this form of age discrimination? At a time of high unemployment, is not this closure of another avenue of employment totally unacceptable?

I do not accept that there has been any closure of this opportunity. If the hon. Lady is pointing, from her knowledge, to the Civil Service discriminating against women in terms of age—I recall the case to which she is referring—I remind her that we are changing the regulations in order to take account of that situation.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what pay claims he has received from Civil Service unions for 1977–78.

No general pay claims relating to the current pay round have yet been submitted by the unions concerned.

As there is no Pay Research Unit in operation, on what principles will the Government base their response to the pay claims of the Civil Service unions this time, and what timetable does my right hon. Friend envisage for the negotiations taking place?

As my hon. Friend will be aware, the operative date for any new pay awards will be 1st April 1978. I assure my hon. Friend that it is not the Government's intention to single out civil servants for more restrictive treatment than is required elsewhere. The guidance on earnings increases which will be applied to the Civil Service in the current pay round is that set out in Command Paper 6882.