asked the Secretary of States for Wales if he will make a statement of progress with the conversion of the Cardiff Coal Exchange for the proposed Welsh Assembly.

(Mr. John Morris): No conversion work has been carried out in the exchange since I informed my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes) in a written reply on 7th April 1977 that the main conversion work on the building would not proceed at that time.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept, however, that in view of the progress that has been made on the Scotland Bill and the great likelihood that the Wales Bill will follow a similar path, there is now very little chance that devolution will be acceptable to the Welsh people? Therefore, what alternative arrangements has my right hon. and learned Friend made for this building? I am sure that he will agree with me that we have already spent about £2½ million on the conversion.

Order. That is an excellent example of Celtic restraint!

In response to your appeal, Mr. Speaker, all I would say is that I do not share my hon. Friend's pessimism.

Have not we in the Labour Party been wholly against specu- lative building of all sorts? Given the relative success of our energy policy and the conspicuous failure of our devolution policy, would it not be right now to convert the building back?

My hon. Friend must await the situation as it arises.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from Rhuddlan Borough Council regarding the risk of sea flooding in the Rhyl and Prestatyn area; and what reply he has sent.

My right hon. and learned Friend has received representations from Rhuddlan Borough Council about the need for better tidal flood warning arrangements in North Wales. I refer the hon. Member to the reply given to him by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 16th February.

Will the hon. Gentleman tell me whether there is to be any Welsh Office presence at the conference that is shortly to be held at Tewkesbury in order to discuss the extension of the East Coast sophisticated type of scheme for flood warnings to the West Coast? If there is not to be such a presence, will the hon. Gentleman take a very close interest in the proceedings of that conference?

A very close interest is being taken. There will be a Welsh Office presence. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt be able to follow the results of the 22nd February conference.

In view of the troubles at Prestatyn and on other parts of the Welsh Coast, and in view of the difficulties with snow experienced this weekend in other parts of Wales, will the Secretary of State put pressure on the EEC for Wales to benefit from a similar scheme to the £1 million that has been given recently to alleviate these problems in East Anglia and in Scotland?

The Welsh Office never losses an opportunity where Brussels is concerned to obtain what is our right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest available quarterly figures for housing starts, houses under construction and completions and for housing improvements in Wales.

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will circulate the detailed information in the Official Report. The provisional figures for the fourth quarter of 1977 show 2,515 starts, 3,826 completions, and 19,054 under construction. 1,777 private sector renovation grants were approved during the quarter.

Are not the year's housing starts among the worst for a number of years and do not the figures in the recent report "Housing in Wales" suggest that the Government have made a great mistake in reducing the amount of expenditure on housing improvements in Wales and switching the policy on that which was followed by the Conservative Government?

First, I welcome the hon. Member back to our midst, and I wish him well.

As my right hon. and learned Friend has succeeded in obtaining additional capital for expenditure on housing in Wales, what further action is being taken to encourage local authorities to avail themselves of the funds that exist for house building?

I am sure that the House will recognise the situation. I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Time after time we have obtained the increased resources that are badly needed in Wales, and regrettably they have not been spent, for a whole host of causes. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones), who is not able to be present this afternoon—he is in Cardiff, for obvious reasons—has set up machinery to work in very close consultation with local authorities to try to ensure that all the money that is available will be spent and to ensure that those who can spend more are given added encouragement.

In view of the disappointing number of starts in both the private sector and the public sector in Wales last year, to meet the urgent need, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman look at the allocation to the Housing Corporation office in Wales to increase its units from the present 1,500 to 2,000?

The Housing Corporation is getting a significant increase in its allocation. It is very much higher, by a number of times, than it was in 1973 and 1974, and the Housing Corporation is getting even more next year because I believe—and I am fairly confident—that it will be able to spend the resources given to it. It is being given every encouragement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further steps he intends to take to reduce unemployment in Wales.

The Government will continue to pursue their present policies aimed at increasing economic activity and creating the conditions necessary for growth and additional employment. In this connection I have today approved the Development Board for Rural Wales' plans for erecting 13 advance factories in 1978–79.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the present unemployment figure of 93,000 in Wales would be about 20,000 higher were it not for the job creation and work experience programmes, that the situation we are now facing is the grimmest that we have faced for many years, and that the best thing that the right hon. and learned Gentleman can do is to advise the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lower taxation to provide an incentive for people to work and to provide work?

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take cognisance of the hon. Gentleman's advice in due course, but I cannot anticipate his Budget. With regard to the steps that have been taken, they do not amount to a totality of about 20,000 jobs. In all, 53,000 jobs in Wales have been saved—I know there are various components in this regard—as a direct result of Government measures. Since the hon. Gentleman is speaking for his party, I should have thought that he would have welcomed the announcement for Mid-Wales.

Does the Secretary of State agree that, while the world economy is so sluggish, the outlook for large industries, both public and private, is bleak? The best chance of stimulating employment opportunities is by encouraging small businesses and small enterprises, and to give them confidence to employ more people. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman have a word with the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see whether this can be done in the Budget?

Certainly. In the course of the year my right hon. Friend has already responded to suggestions that small businesses should have help. He did so in the course of some of the measures that were taken last year. In addition, in the last year I have deliberately tilted towards small businesses approvals under the advance factory programmes.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that important as small businesses are to the Principality, and given the unlikelihood of major investment from the private sector, large and small, the biggest possible boost to solving our unemployment problem would be a substantial restoration of the public sector cuts but that if that happened it would be hotly contested by the Conservative Opposition?

We know the attitude of the Conservative Opposition with regard to the public sector in Wales. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to remind the House of it. In Wales the public sector plays a very important part in job provision.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Rhyl area in my constituency, which has one of the highest unemployment rates in the whole of Wales, is excluded from the Welsh development area? Will he do something about making a sensible allocation of aid to Wales as a whole?

The hon. Gentleman knows that the allocation of development area status is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. The hon. Gentleman has made that point from time to time, and I am fully aware of his representations.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend consider the suggestion made by the Heads of the Valley local authorities that we should consider a development corporation for the Heads of the Valley to work with the Welsh Development Agency or some similar body? At the same time, will he consider the memorandum submitted by the Wales TUC for positive proposals for dealing with structural unemployment, which may be with us for many years to come?

Structural unemployment is a general matter. With my colleagues I have studied, and shall continue to do so, the general points that have been made.

Will the Secretary of State think again about the possibility of encouraging the WDA to give more aid to the Development Corporation for Wales? It has been increased since the WDA came into existence, but the corporation would like to extend its activities and to seize potential. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should look at this as a possibility.

I am in close contact with the development corporation. The WDA gives it a substantial allocation, which, as the hon. Gentleman has said has been increased. The corporation receives its funds from three sources, including local authorities and industry. All of that is welcome. I hope very much that, instead of having a whole host of people going out to sell Wales, local authorities will concentrate their subventions on the development corporation, because I believe that is the best way of doing it. The main problem is to get industry to Wales. One can fight after-wards about where in Wales it should go.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend pay particular attention to the needs of small farms in view of the appalling weather conditions in South Wales? Will he assure the House that he will take urgent steps today to see what specific help can be given—using the Armed Forces if necessary—to rescue livestock, and indeed small farms, which are threatened? Will he ensure that some urgent action is taken?

I can assure my hon. Friend and the House that I am in constant touch with the situation. I was getting situation reports late last night. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones), is not present this afternoon because the Prime Minister has asked him to co-ordinate activity in Cardiff. He is giving me regular reports to ensure the necessary co-ordination, so that action with regard to small farmers and individuals who regrettably are detained in their homes, and unable to use hospital services, can be quickly and speedily considered.

I proposed to ask your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, on a later Question to raise this point. May I specifically ask whether the Secretary of State can assure us that, where Service helicopters are used to rescue livestock, farmers will not be landed with prohibitive bills as a consequence but that the Government will look sympathetically at the whole question of the charges involved for the use of helicopters?

I am aware of this problem. All I can say at present is that it will be looked at urgently and speedily. What is important is to get on with the job of using, under most difficult conditions, whatever resources we have to ensure that human beings, and animals where necessary, are given every assistance.

rose—

As an exceptional measure, and in view of the exceptional conditions, I shall again call the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson).

Will the Secretary of State make an early announcement about this, otherwise farmers may be tempted, for example, not to call in the helicopter service? I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman will find that in 1947 and 1963 some people did not call in helicopters, which might have helped their livestock, because they were afraid of the charges. It is important that a public announcement be made as early as possible.

I can assure the House that this problem was raised with me this morning by the Under-Secretary of State. It is right that hon. Members should raise it this afternoon. I am not aware of any cases that have arisen of people not availing themselves on financial grounds of whatever resources are available. The problem is to ensure that the resources are deployed to the maximum effect. This is a difficulty, but I can assure hon. Members that I shall look at the matter as speedily as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he proposes to introduce measures designed to bring the numbers of pupils in Wales leaving school with O-level GCE and CSE awards to at least the same level as that attained in England.

The improvement of educational standards is a major concern. I have invited our partners in the education service to consider this particular issue at a conference in Mold on 10th March. We have prepared and published a document as a basis for discussion both at the conference and more widely. I have sent a copy to the hon. Member.

Will the Minister agree that, although the question of continuous assessment and the timing of the GCE and CSE examinations should be considered, so possibly should the unconscious motivation of teachers in Wales, whereby perhaps those pupils who are bright, or brighter than average, get special treatment, and those who are not seen in those categories do not get such good treatment? Will he bear this in mind?

All possibilities will be borne in mind, but I do not want in any way to prejudge the conference. The Department is not complacent in this matter but does not want to anticipate what, for example, representatives of the teachers who are present at Mold will say.

Will the Minister note that the people of Wales want positive action to be taken on this matter? There is the question of the timing of the CSE examination, which is, I understand, currently held after the Spring Bank Holiday. There is also the question of the curriculum. Will the hon. Gentleman note that the people of Wales want action rather than talk?

Yes. Every notice is taken of what the hon. Member and other hon. Members say. Of course, we want action, and I think that the people of Wales will get it, but there is no point whatsoever in anticipating the conference of 10th March. I hope that after what will be a unique conference for Wales we may have measures proposed or the debate may indicate the way in which we may tackle a subject about which we are not complacent.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the way in which local authorities use their planning powers.

My right hon. and learned Friend is satisfied that local planning authorities in general discharge their ditties satisfactorily.

Is the Minister aware that in most, if not the whole, of rural Wales the planning authorities tend to concentrate house building on what they call, in planning jargon, major settlements? Is he further aware that this further depopulates rural Wales and further weakens the rich culture which used to be characteristic of that part of our land? Will his right hon. and learned Friend consider issuing a directive to the local authorities to correct this?

My right hon. and learned Friend, in the main thrust of his policies, has always taken into account depopulation and the cultural factors of Wales, but responsibility for land use planning functions has been vested by Parliament in county and district councils, and it would not be right for my right hon. and learned Friend to intervene, save in exceptional circumstances—for example, where wide strategic decisions in planning are involved.

My hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment announced what appeared to be a major change in Government thinking in England at the recent Bristol conference in talking of what he called organic change between the county and district councils, possibly in education, social services and planning. Is this policy of organic change as between county and district authorities and the old county boroughs also the policy in relation to Wales?

I have noted everything that my hon. Friend has said, and it might be that he would need to put down a Question.

Does the Minister appreciate that there is a tendency among some Welsh planning authorities to follow slavishly a directive sent out years ago against isolated development? Powys tends to do this, whereas Clwyd ignores the directive and takes a much different view. Is it not necessary to have regard to Welsh history in this matter and to the position in rural Wales, where we have a good deal of isolated development? Is it not desirable that it should be properly controlled?

We shall look at that aspect, but isolated development is different from small development. Complaints of maladministration by local authorities—if the hon. and learned Gentleman has any—could be pursued through the local ombudsman, but we shall look very carefully at what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has received a copy of "Housing in Wales", a report of the Welsh Housing Association Committee; and if he will make a statement on his policy with regard to its proposals.

Yes. I note that much of the statistical information which the report uses has been superseded, and that its conclusions are in many respects out of date. I have in fact already allocated a greater amount to housing associations for rehabilitation work in 1978–79 than the report asks for.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, although Wales gets its fair proportion of public expenditure per head of the population compared with the rest of the United Kingdom, it still has a higher proportion of unfit houses than most other areas in Britain? Will he look at the proposal concerning the need to improve older properties by designating housing action areas in Wales and encouraging local authorities to do likewise?

I have given every encouragement to housing action areas, and local authorities have had their experience of the first round. We look forward to the next stage.

That answer was even longer than some of mine used to be when I answered at the Dispatch Box.

Is it not a fact that the report "Housing in Wales" by the Welsh Housing Association Committee is based on the 1973 household conditions survey? Why is the 1976 household conditions survey so late in appearing? I understand that it is being printed. Does it show any substantial difference?

It is on its way. It has been prepared as speedily as possible and it shows a steady progression of improvement. The percentage of unsatisfactory housing had been falling at the rate of 1·4 per cent. a year. It stood at 25 per cent. in 1973. By 1976 it was down to 18 per cent., having fallen at the rate of 2·3 per cent.—a 50 per cent. improvement. I hope that the survey will be before hon. Member as soon as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what were the total figures for houses in Wales which were unfit, fit but lacking one or more of the basic amenities and fit but out of repair, respectively, in the surveys for 1968, 1973 and 1976; and what proportion these figures represent of the total housing stock at the said dates.

With permission, I will circulate the detailed figures in the Official Report. The proportion of unsatisfactory housing as defined in the Question fell from 32 per cent. in 1968 to 25 per cent. in 1973, and from 25 per cent. in 1973 to 18 per cent. in 1976.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that that is a pretty dramatic improvement—a reduction of almost a half in our unfit housing stock within eight years? Nevertheless, the comparative figures with other parts of the United Kingdom are still very worrying indeed. Will he assure the House that, in spite of the very substantial underspend in the last two years, he will continue to make money available?

Yes. For the forth-coming year we have accepted the programmes of local authorities and told them to get on with it, knowing that, regrettably, they will not be able to spend the money for the whole of the programmes they have put before me. I shall do my utmost, but it is up to them to ensure that they spend the money that is made available to them.

Will the Secretary of State please refrain from attacking local authorities all the time for underspending when it is his office which has made money available very often merely by way of loan consent at the last instance, when local authorities have not been able to take up their allocation?

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of all unfit houses in Great Britain are in Wales.

No precise answer can be given, since Scotland does not use the classification "unfit". Taking, however, the combined totals of unfit houses in England and Wales and houses below a tolerable standard in Scotland, the answer is about 9·5 per cent.

Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that this is an intolerable figure, bearing in mind that Wales's share of the population of Great Britain is only 5 per cent.? Will he confirm that it represents 36 unfit houses per 1,000 population in Wales as compared with only 9 per 1,000 population in South-East England, and that Wales is now getting, in real terms, less than 4 per cent. of the United Kingdom's public expenditure on housing?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman heard what I said in reply to the last two Questions. I explained how the figure for unfitness has gone down dramatically over the last few years. I am the first to concede that there is still

I am not attacking anyone. There is no mileage in attacking about past failures. What I want to ensure—this is why the machinery has been set up—is that the position is improved for future years. Regrettably and unhappily, reasons have been advanced for an under-spend in 1976–77. There will also be an underspend this year. Some of the reasons no longer exist. I want to be assured that for the next year we shall not again be in the same position. That is why I have approved in substance the authorities' plans, even though in excess of the money I now have available, knowing that they will not meet the programmes which they have put before me.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, since there is a higher proportion of owner-occupation in Wales than in many other parts of the United Kingdom, in dealing with the question of unfit houses comprehensively we may have to review the question of improvement grants?

My hon. Friend is right. Last August, we increased the totals as regards the ceilings and rateable values. This is one of the problems, but I feel encouraged by the work of the housing associations, which is why I have given them a significantly increased grant for next year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will visit Newport.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no immediate plans to do so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, if the Secretary of State were to visit Newport, it would give us an opportunity to express our thanks for the fact that the road structure plan for Gwent seems to be under way? Is he further aware, however, that there is still a missing link, since we urgently need an expressway linking Newport and Cwmbran? If my hon. Friend were to drive along Shaftesbury Street, he would witness the traffic congestion near the Harlequin Hotel.

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's gratitude. I have taken careful note of the points he has made and will look into them, but I am sure that he will agree that his constituency has been one of the main beneficiaries of the M4 programme for Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied that there is adequate communication between the Manpower Services Commission in Wales and local authorities in Wales in relation to the changeover from the job creation scheme to the special temporary employment programme.

Yes. The Manpower Services Commission informs us that it wrote in December 1977 to job creation programme sponsors in Wales, including all local authorities, setting out the arrangements for the changeover and explaining how further information could be obtained.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the last meeting of the job creation team took place last week and as yet local authorities have not had the detailed information necessary for them to put forward proposals under the special temporary employment programme? This has led to a situation in which the budgets of local authorities have been completed with the provision of many of the details for the programme. Unless more money is forthcoming under the locally determined schemes, we shall miss out on job opportunities because of this lack of co-ordination.

Job opportunities in that part of North Wales are very important indeed. I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's views to the attention of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Employment, indicating to him how important the hon. Member's constituency believes these applications to be.

asked the Secretary of State for Trade what progress has been made with the implementation of the proposals to ensure the provision of more information in annual reports of companies.

The comments received on the proposals in the Green Paper "The Future of Company Reports" (Command 6888) are now being studied.

Has consideration been given to the CBI's public opposition to the proposals contained in the Green Paper? What response have the Government made to these proposals? Is my hon. Friend aware that the trade unions and. I believe, the country generally want to have much more information from companies than they are getting now? I should be glad to be assured that legislation will be introduced by the Government as soon as possible to implement their own proposals.

There is no question but that more disclosure is necessary, and there has been widespread support for most of the proposals in the Green Paper. Though the CBI has expressed concern about certain points, it has given its support to, the work which is now being done on simplified accounts for shareholders and employees. It is our intention to go through the comments we have received in our consultations, and to prepare a Bill as quickly as possible.

Does not the hon. Gentleman appreciate that there is a danger in giving too much information which would be available to competitors, particularly foreign competitors? If disclosure were seen to be likely to affect employment in this country because foreign competitors would be getting too much information, would not action he needed?

Section 18 of the Employment Protection Act and Part IV of the Industry Act 1975 prevent information which is potentially of interest to competitors from being improperly disclosed, and certainly we would ensure that any such provisions were duplicated in this case.

asked the Secretary of State for Energy what is the price of uranium used in estimating costs of current operations of thermal nuclear reactors; and what was the price paid or estimated one, three, five and seven years earlier.

In calculating its published figures for generation costs in respect of stations commissioned in the previous 12 years, the CEGB includes the price paid for uranium. This information is, however, a matter of commercial confidence between the Board and its suppliers.

Given the growing demand, is it not to be expected that, during the next decade, the price of uranium will rise very sharply, if not dramatically? Have the Government taken full account of this possibility in their energy deliberations?

Yes, Sir. In the departmental forecasts, prices are assumed to double by the end of the century.

As nuclear power is the only source of energy dependent on imported fuel, is the Minister satisfied that enough has been done to build up some more substantial strategic stockpile, particularly in view of potential rises in price?

Yes, Sir. The price of the uranium currently being used by the Central Electricity Generating Board is much lower than the present world market price because it was purchased under contracts made some time ago. We have had discussions with various Governments about future contracts, and these are developing much more favourably than appeared to be the case before.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is now in a position to announce the names of the Chairman and independent members of the Civil Service Pay Research Unit Board.

An announcement will be made as soon as possible.

Will the right hon. Gentleman recommend that an annual report from the Chairman of the Pay Research Unit Board should be prepared and made available to the outside world? Will he further recommend that, as the Government have agreed to bring outsiders on to the Board, it would be sensible if the task of deciding what was a fair deduction for inflation-proofing of public service pensions was shared by the Government Actuary with outside actuaries?

I think that the inference made by the hon. Gentleman in the last part of his supplementary question is a slur on the Government Actuary. The agreement makes it possible for the report from the Board to the Prime Minister to be published.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) for raising a question related to a report of a Sub-Committee, which I chaired and I am grateful to the Government for accepting it in part, but I wonder when they will produce their official reply. I take it that it will be before Easter—and one hopes that it will be fairly well before Easter.

I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) that the Government recognise the contribution of the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee under his chairmanship in producing its report. It is hoped that the Government's response will be made available to the House in the next few weeks.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept the need to get the pay research machinery going at an early date in order to provide an adequate basis for the 1979 settlement, and also to reassure those making their 1978 claim of the Government's good faith?

I think that those making their claims for 1978 recognise the Government's good faith, as the hon. Gentleman put it. I accept the hon. Gentleman's first point, that the Pay Research Unit and the Board should be established as quickly as practicable.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next expects to meet representatives of the Civil Service employees to discuss job dispersal.

I have no current plans to do so. My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal met the National Staff Side on 1st February 1977. Departmental Ministers are in consultation with their individual staff sides and officials of my Department are in regular contact with the Staff Side of the Civil Service National Whitley Council.

Will my right hon. Friend resist the pressures from a handful of senior civil servants who are trying to block the Government's plans to disperse jobs to Scotland in the hope that a change of Government will mean the complete scrapping of the programme? Will he assure these people that many of their fears about coming to Scotland are completely without foundation because there are many suitable office locations and many attractive working environments in, for example, central Scotland?

I welcome the opportunity of assuring my hon. Friend that the Government are conscious of the attractiveness of many geographical locations in Scotland in the context of Civil Service dispersal.

Will the right hon. Gentleman try to remove some of the fears in Scotland that have arisen from the many delays to this programme and say when work will start on the building of the new Ministry of Defence in Glasgow? Until the building is seen, many of these fears will remain.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will put down a separate Question on that last point because I want to deal with the main burden of his comment, which relates to the timetable for Civil Service dispersal to Scotland.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what many of the civil servants in Scotland who are in favour of dispersal are looking for is some tangible evidence that a start will be made on the development of this process to Scotland, to Glasgow and to my constituency of East Kilbride? Will he take the opportunity of having a meeting with them to dispel their fears? They are being pushed by other members of the Civil Service to wait in case there is a change of Government.

I know that my hon. Friend has taken a consistent interest in the issue of Civil Service dispersal, and I am delighted to assure him that I stand ready to meet anybody in Scotland who has anxieties about Government policies on Civil Service dispersal.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will meet representatives from the Civil Service Union to discuss problems arising from devolution in Scotland with particular reference to the Forestry Commission.

I should be ready to meet representatives of the Civil Service Union to discuss these problems. Since they pertain to devolution, I would propose to meet the representatives in company with my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Privy Council Office.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that that answer will be welcomed by those specialist officers of the Civil Service Union who are concerned about the future career structure of their members employed by the Forestry Commission? They are particularly concerned about establishment negotiations and the future careers of their members.

I am aware of those facts and would be delighted to give consideration to the anxieties of the Civil Service Union in this regard in any discussions that I have with it.

Further to the point about job opportunities with the Forestry Commission, will my right hon. Friend take into account that one of the important points in considering the dispersal of jobs to Scotland is that because many young people who pass the Civil Service examination have to leave Scotland to get jobs they are anxious that there should be more Civil Service jobs in Scotland?

My hon. Friend is right. There are many academically well qualified youngsters in Scotland who could make a positive contribution to government administration were they to be recruited to the Civil Service. Basically, that is the whole justification for the Government's programme in dispersing the Civil Service to Scotland.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service how many civil servants, other than at the, Welsh Office, are employed in the Cardiff area.

There are, excluding staff of the Welsh Office, 9,500 non-industrial civil servants in the Cardiff area.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that that figure is well in excess of the average for cities in the regions of England of a comparable size to Cardiff, and to a large extent emanates from the fact that Cardiff is the capital city of Wales? In those circumstances, will he draw to the attention of South Glamorgan County Council the irony of its refusing jobs which are associated with the Welsh Assembly and tell it that many other areas in Wales would be grateful for these jobs if the council would not?

I think the hon. Gentleman has made the point that Wales generally has done remarkably well out of the Government's Civil Service dispersal programme.

Given that perhaps there is an over-concentration of administrative jobs within the Principality's capital, will my right hon. Friend seek, wherever possible, to further the dispersal of jobs within the totality of Wales?

I understand my hon. Friend's anxieties in this regard. The Civil Service must generally be located in important regional centres which have good travel facilities and communications with London and other major centres.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the move of the Ministry of Defence to Cardiff is welcomed by the overwhelming majority of people in the city? Will he take this opportunity to confirm that this will mean more new jobs in the city, contrary to the various scare stories emanating from Plaid Cymru?

I have noted what the hon. Gentleman rightly refers to as scare stories. Dispersal of the Ministry of Defence to Cardiff will mean more new jobs for the community there.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make plain, in the context of dispersal, whether he is talking about dispersing jobs without the civil servants presently doing those jobs, or dispersing people? If he is not dispersing jobs, what is to happen to those who have been doing the jobs? Will this route lead to an increase in the number of civil servants?

Order. It seems that the hon. Member is getting in the supplementary question that he failed to get in when we were dealing with dispersal.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. With respect, dispersal was referred to in supplementary questions and in the original answer.

We dealt with dispersal on two Questions, I think.

asked the Lord President of the Council what was the estimated cost of providing answers to the 212 Written Questions for Monday 6th February; and whether, in view of the need to curb public expenditure, he will propose an upper limit on the number of such Questions which any hon. Member may table per month or per Session.

The average cost of preparing a reply to a Written Question is currently estimated at £18. On this basis the cost of the answers to the Written Questions on 6th February would be £3,816. These figures are necessarily only approximate, and the cost of preparing individual answers varies widely. Any proposal for an upper limit on the number of Written Questions tabled by an individual Member would, in the first instance, be for consideration by the Select Committee on Procedure.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed that today there are 235 Questions for Written Answer? On the basis he has given, the cost will be £4,000-plus. Does my right hon. Friend realise that by this method the taxpayer is providing research facilities for organisations outside the House? Will he refer this matter to the Select Committee on Procedure for an early decision because it is some time since hon. Members were rationed for Oral Questions, to the great benefit of the House as a whole?

As my hon. Friend recognises, it is a matter for the Select Committee on Procedure in the first instance to make recommendations to the House. Any question of altering the procedures that we have accepted over recent years and the number of Questions allocated is a matter of concern to the whole House. The whole House would, therefore, have to hear what was proposed before any change was made.

Has the right hon. Gentleman any figures to show how many Questions were being tabled daily before research assistants were provided to Members and how many since such assistants have become available?

I have no figures which show that. Hon. Members must take responsibility, and do take responsibility, for the Questions which they put down. I repeat that the right of Members to put Questions is a matter of great importance. It should not, of course, be interfered with by the Government, and it is a question on which the House itself would have to decide.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that his answer shows that the real cost of answering a Question has declined since the matter was raised and an answer given in the 1964–70 Parliament? Does he realise that my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), who asked this Question, is a Member of the European Assembly, the head of whose Civil Service is paid more than three times the sum paid to the head of our Civil Service? Does my right hon. Friend, therefore, accept that the cost of answering British Questions must be considerably lower than the cost of answering European Questions?

I dare say that my hon. Friend is right in the second part of his supplementary question. As for the first part, relating to what has happened in recent years, it is obvious that the quality of answers has greatly improved, whatever may have happened to the quantity.

Does the Lord President realise that one of the reasons why there are so many more Written Questions is that Ministers are slow in answering letters? Has he any estimate of how much it costs to answer a letter?

I shall certainly answer the latter question if the hon. Gentleman will put it down. There has been an increase in the number of Questions, and that takes a longer time. If there are delays in answering Members' letters, I shall do my very best to look into the matter and see whether we can improve the situation.

Since the number of Oral Questions is limited, is it not right that the number of Written Questions also should at least be considered? Has my right hon. Friend noted that on today's Order Paper there are the names of Members with up to 15 Written Questions down, some of them to every Department, asking for example, about canteen facilities, the answers to which, I am sure, could be found much more cheaply by other methods?

If there is a general desire in the House that we should look into this matter, I should be prepared to refer the question to the Procedure Committee, but, obviously, the House would want to look with care at any change in the system and the rights of Members to put Questions.

asked the Lord President of the Council what consultations he has had with interested parties concerning amendments made during the Committee stage of the Scotland Bill.

At their request, meetings have been held with the General Council of the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the Scottish Council of the Labour Party, where the amendments made to the referendum clause of the Scotland Bill were discussed.

Will my hon. Friend the Minister of State have consultations about the implementation of the 40 per cent. rule in the referendum? Will an estimate be made of the number of people on the register who have died, and will such an estimate be taken into account in an announcement in advance of the referendum being held about the minimum number of votes required to implement the Bill?

My hon. Friend raises an extremely important and relevant point. I undertake that the Government will carefully consider this matter.

Does the Minister agree that there have been certain unsatisfactory aspects to the handling of the Scotland Bill, and will he consider asking his right hon. Friend to refer the matter to the Select Committee on Procedure, since we seem to be faced with a guillotine whenever we have an important Bill and, as a result, many serious amendments are not debated at all?

There are some unusual features about this Bill and the way in which it has been dealt with by the House, but whether matters are discussed or not is the responsibility of the House as well as of the Government, as I think the right hon. Gentleman will recognise.

Has the Minister applied his mind to the anomaly which will arise because there will be students in Scotland who are at university in one area and who have their homes in another, being lawfully registered as voters in both areas, who may want to vote "Yes" but, by so doing, will have their wishes cancelled by the assumed "No" vote in the second area, where they cannot lawfully use their vote and are therefore deemed to have abstained?

The hon. Gentleman has raised another point on the same lines as that raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan). I assure him that we shall consider it carefully.

Will my hon. Friend consider also that we have in Scotland, as in other parts of the country—though perhaps more in Scotland—a fairly large number of religious people who refuse to vote at all? Will they be considered?

There would be certain difficulties in establishing who had a conscientious objection to the use of the vote. I think that these difficulties arise, in a sense, in relation to the decision which the House took against the Government's advice.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will propose to the House a resolution to allow Members to ask two Oral Questions per sitting day.

The consideration of such a change would be a matter for the Select Committee on Procedure. But I doubt whether this proposed reversion to previous practice would be generally welcome.

Will the Leader of the House accept my apologies in that the Question does not quite say what I intended it to say, which was that two Questions could be asked provided that not more than one was to the same Minister? Will he recognise that the reason for this proposal is that, apparently, the Table Office has to maintain over a fortnight a long and complex administrative arrangement whereas, if it was obliged to check the matter out each day, it would simply need to keep a record for a single day, which would be a useful change?

I shall look at that, although here again I think that it would be a matter for the Procedure Committee to consider before any change in the present practice was contemplated.

So that hon. Members may judge the effect of this proposal on public expenditure, can my right hon. Friend say what is the cost of answering an Oral Question as distinct from the Written Questions on which he replied earlier?

I shall give my hon. Friend a reply on that if he will put down a Question, though I must add that working out the figures for Oral Questions involves some cost as well.

asked the Lord President of the Council when he now expects sound broadcasting of the proceedings of the House to begin.

The broadcasting authorities hope to begin regular broadcasting of parliamentary proceedings when the House reassembles after the Easter Recess.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be desirable for the Select Committee to be appointed and to hold several meetings before, not after, the broadcasts begin? When will the names of the members of the Committee appear on the Order Paper?

I think that it would be right for the Committee to be appointed before broadcasting starts, but I should argue strongly that it is not necessary to have a series of meetings before it starts. We hope to announce the names shortly.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be desirable that cassette recordings of the whole proceedings should be available at least to Members and that we should ask the broadcasting authorities to remind listeners at the end of a broadcast that they can obtain a record of the whole of our debates in the Official Report?

I think that that is a matter which the Joint Committee may well wish to look at in the early stages.

Why is it a matter for the Joint Committee in this House when, as I understand, peers will be able to obtain the recordings? Does my hon. Friend wish to make his colleagues second class citizens?

I should be in immediate difficulty if I tried. My hon. Friend and I have discussed this matter, and we are looking into it.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will take steps to make additional back-up facilities available to members of Select Committees.

I understand that the Select Committee on Procedure is examining a number of aspects of the working of the Select Committee system. I would suggest that the House awaits its report.

Does the Lord President share the general appreciation of the work recently done by, for example, the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries and the Select Committee on Overseas Development, and will he personally support the idea that more backup facilities should be available to Select Committees so that they did not have to rely on the staff of the Serjeant at Arms?

Obviously I follow the work of all right hon. and hon. Members in all quarters and on all Committees with the same impartial eye, and that applies to these Committees. If there is to be a considerable extension of facilities, I believe that that must be a matter for the Procedure Committee itself to look into and to consider what would be involved.

Does my right hon. Friend find it odd that the Expenditure Committee, which considers policy, has a support staff of about 30 full-time people, but the Public Accounts Committee, which still considers little more than whether the books balance, has a full-time staff of 600 working in its support? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the House deserves an investigatory committee system with substantial backup staff?

My hon. Friend is an expert on this subject because he is on the Expenditure Committee, but I believe that the proposition that there should be a general extension of investigatory committees is a matter which the House should look at following the report from the Procedure Committee. I do not think that we should take action before the report comes.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will cause to be erected in the House a statue of the late Stanley Baldwin.

I do not know whether there is a general desire in the House for this proposal. I suppose I should take into account the fiercely critical views which Leaders of the Conservative Party are inclined to take of their predecessors.

Since the Prime Minister appears to emulate this statesman in every possible way, if he were ever to have a statue erected to himself, would it not be a good idea to have one erected to Stanley Baldwin first?

If the hon. Member wants to attack the Prime Minister, he should discover a less roundabout way of doing it. Any attack from the hon. Member is a compliment. I suggest that he should first see whether he has any support for his idea from his hon. Friends.