asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures available for the number of people speaking the Welsh language; what are the equivalent figures for 1950, 1960, and 1970; what steps he is taking to further the speaking of Welsh; and if he will make a statement.

I will with permission, publish the figures in the Official Report. Between 1951 and 1971 the number of Welsh speakers fell by over 170,000. This Government have taken and continue to take a wide and significant range of measures to support and encourage the speaking of Welsh.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, in view of the evidence that the number of those speaking the Welsh language is falling consistently, in spite of the strenuous efforts being made by the Government, much more emphasis should be laid on informal methods of supporting the language? Does he agree that the most important thing to do is to stimulate an interest in the language among young people, possibly in the first instance by extending radio and television coverage in Welsh?

I certainly would not dissent in any way from the helpful comment of my hon. Friend. The Government are committed to the fourth channel. It is however, a matter of resources. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has set up a working party to consider the issue further. It is helpful to note that, although some of the figures are very unhappy, there is a higher proportion of those in the 10 to 14 year age group speaking Welsh. That is indicative of the effort made in the schools.

While I appreciate the efforts made by the Secretary of State in the past few years to safeguard the Welsh language, may I ask whether he is in a position to announce whether the fourth television channel will be allocated to Wales? Does he agree that all the programmes on such a channel should be in Welsh?

That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. Although there is a high degree of agreement as regards the apportionment of the fourth channel, a significant minority would be against segregating the Welsh language on one channel. The Government are committed to this.

Will the Secretary of State tell us whether the body which he set up three years ago, the Welsh Language Council, to undertake detailed policy-making in respect of the Welsh language still exists? If it is still in existence, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to tell us whether he has received a long report from the council which arose as a result of extensive public consultations in Wales? What action does he propose to take about the report of the Council, A gawn ni farn yr Ysgrifennyd Gwladol yn faun ar yr adroddiad yma?

The hon. Gentleman asks for my opinion on the report of the Welsh Language Council. The council's activity has come to an end. That was announced during January. I have received its report. It is now with the printers and will be published during May.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend appreciate that he deserves the highest praise for his recent announcement concerning assistance to the National Eisteddford, which has done so much to sustain and further the Welsh language? Is he aware that the development of Welsh primary schools has done a great deal to further the language, particularly in Glamorgan? Will he give an assurance that he will give every support to such schools and will afford them priority over expenditure in other directions such as the provision of bilingual road signs?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks concerning the grant of £275,000 to the National Eisteddfod which has been welcomed throughout Wales. The money gives the Eisteddfod vital breathing space to consider its situation and its future. I am most encouraged by the response of the authorities to the remarks I have made. I have mentioned earlier the increase in those speaking Welsh in the 10 to 14 year age group. This shows the effect which the schools have. I have given the schools every encouragement. I have also given particular encouragement to Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin, the Welsh language playgroup movement, the grant to which has been increased almost ninefold since I took office.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the Government had done a great deal. Will he go a bit further and say that most post-war Governments have done a considerable amount in this area? Can he say whether the grant to the Eisteddfod is a once-for-all grant or will it be looked at again?

I do not dissent from what the hon. Gentleman has said. I think that all Governments have done a great deal in the furtherance of the language. I want to place that on record.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the paper entitled "Examination Achievement in Wales: Literacy and Numeracy", prepared for the Welsh national conference on education on 10th March.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what positive steps he proposes to take following the publication of the papers "Literacy and Numeracy" and "Examination Achievement in Wales".

A very constructive discussion of educational matters took place at the conference in Mold on 10th March and I am arranging for an account of this to be published. Thereafter I intend to meet local education authorities and other bodies throughout Wales and consider with them how further progress can be made to combat the measure of under-achievement revealed in these papers.

Does not the Minister feel it strange that, in a paper that regrettably identifies clearly that the less able child in Wales is disadvantaged against his counterpart in England, there is only a passing reference to the principal difference between the education sustained by children in Wales and in England, namely, that in Wales a proportion of time is spent on the compulsory teaching of a language which, however worthy of preservation, as it certainly is, culturally, is nevertheless in terms of the modern world a dead language?

The hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) spoke to me in an accent which was not Welsh. I think that his remarks were insensitive. It is required by the local education authorities in Wales that all the children should be enabled to have an understanding of Welsh, certainly while they are at the primary school stage. I do not believe one whit that it prevents the Welsh nation or the Welsh people from being able to take their place in the modern world.

Does the Minister agree that there is no positive evidence to show that there is a difference in attainment between Welsh speakers and non-Welsh speakers? Does he further agree that, judging by the results of the recent Institute of Mathematics test in six authorities throughout England and Wales, the standard of attainment in numeracy is low among school leavers in England as well as in Wales?

I believe that the hon. Gentleman has in his latter remarks raised two very serious points. Those points were raised at the conference held at Mold. I particularly refer to the inability of pupils in Wales to enter for the same subject in both the O-level and CSE examinations of the Welsh Joint Education Committee. I shall certainly be contacting the examination board in Wales on that matter.

rose—

Order. May I ask for the control of Celtic exuberance? May we have briefer supplementary questions and briefer answers?

Will my hon. Friend totally disregard the absurd supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee) which demonstrated, for the second time, that he knows absolutely nothing about Wales and would be best out of the Chamber on these occasions? Will he confirm that the standard of educational attainment in those schools in Wales in which Welsh is the first language is very high?

Yes, I can confirm the latter point. With regard to the provocative and perhaps insensitive remarks of the hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr. van Straubenzee), the best thing for me to say is that perhaps he was off beam a little.

Does the Minister agree that, nevertheless, the two reports disclose a disquieting feature of Welsh education, namely, the number of children who lack literacy and numeracy? Whereas the reports concentrate on secondary education, do not the findings indicate that the real weakness is in primary education in certain areas in Wales which are not the Welsh-speaking areas at all?

I beleive that the hon. and learned Member has put his finger on a very important factor in the education of all our children in Britain and certainly in Wales, which is the quality in the primary school sector. That is the foundation for every child's education in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales which organisations and how many individuals have made representations to him to date in favour of a first-past-the-post electoral system for the Welsh Assembly.

No organisations or individuals have made specific representations to me in favour of a first-past-the-post system for Welsh Assembly elections.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that this shows very little enthusiasm for the electoral provisions of the Wales Bill? Will he use his influence on his colleagues in the Government to get them to amend the Wales Bill so that the elections will be by a system of proportional representation, which would be much fairer?

As regards enthusiasm, I have received 1,900 letters from individuals and only 17 specifically came out in favour of proportional representation. Out of 160 organisations, in like manner, only nine came out in favour of proportional representation.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree, from his knowledge of Wales, that the reason for there being no representations on either side for or against PR in the conduct of the Welsh Assembly elections is that people in Wales know that they will never get to that, because, fortunately, the Government have provided for a referendum which will ensure that the present proposals are sunk without trace whenever we have the referendum?

My hon. Friend will fight that battle when he comes to it.

Given that we are to have a referendum, will not the Secretary of State take the opportunity to put a question on the method of election in view of the fact that 70 per cent. or more of the population have indicated that they prefer the PR method of election?

I thought that the House had dealt with this matter on 1st March, We had a full debate. I replied to the debate, and there was a substantial majority against proportional representation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many communications he has now received from county councils in Wales regarding the Welsh devolution Bill.

I have received seven communications from or on behalf of Welsh county councils about the Wales Bill and connected matters.

Will the Secretary of State say whether these communications from county councils show any more enthusiasm for the devolution Bill than is shown by his Back Bench supporters, only two of whom take the trouble to turn up to speak in its favour? Is it perhaps the case that they recognise an electoral albatross when they see one?

I think that a whole range of my hon. Friends have taken part in one way or another in the debate on the Bill. As regards the local authorities, when the Welsh Counties Committee saw me at a series of conferences that I held in Cardiff in 1974 it came down firmly in favour of the executive solution that we proposed. In the course of time the committee has become very concerned with one aspect, which is Clause 13, dealing with local government reorganisation. The hon. Member should know that there is enormous dissatisfaction in Wales with the present system of local government.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Government are not so much concerned with the vested interests as with the best system of local government for Wales? Does he agree that the last reorganisation was very much a gerrymandering exercise in favour of the Conservative Party? For example, the county of South Glamorgan was purposely created to make it Tory for ever. Likewise, the county of Monmouthshire and the county borough of Newport would still be Labour under the old system of local government.

We know that right hon. and hon. Members opposite, because they supported the reorganisation and are responsible for the present sysem, are not ready to accept the liability of the albatross which has been strung around the neck of the Welsh people. But it is important now to consider what deficiencies there are, and, if there are defects, to ensure that amendments are made. There is a number of ways to do it—by appointing a commission, another nominated body, or by my civil servants, or by an elected body. I believe that the job is better done by an elected body.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, quite apart from the question of local government reorganisation, on which the county councils have made their position plain, they are equally concerned that they will be cut off from central Government in the negotiation of their own finances and the rate support grant? Is not that an intolerable position in which to place local authorities?

Certainly not. The views of the councils on the matter vary. Given the concern in the hon. Gentleman's former county of Pembroke, where people fought bitterly and deeply against local government reorganisation, I should have thought that he would have spoken for dismembering the old county of Dyfed, knowing that the county council has voted so to do.

Hon. Members opposite are fond of quoting county councils. Can my right hon. and learned F1iend give any evidence from the district coun- cils' organisations as to their feelings on the matter? Has he any means of ascertaining the pre-1972 views of those county councillors who are vociferous in their opposition to devolution and reorganisation and whether their views are the same now as they were then?

I would not want to go too far back in history, but we all recall the attitude taken by many who are bitterly opposed to the system of local government imposed on them by the Conservative Party, which is manifestly seen not to be working to the satisfaction of the people of Wales. It is important that the system should be looked at and recommendations made to this House to ensure that the matter, where necessary, is put right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in connection with further industrial development in Wales in addition to the Ford development at Waterton.

Since the Ford announcement last September, work has started on the Hoover extension at Merthyr Tydfil to provide, in due course, nearly 3,000 additional jobs In the whole of Wales, 50 Government factories with a total area in excess of 600,000 sq. ft. have been formally or provisionally allocated, 60 offers of financial support have been made to provide 3,500 jobs, and applications are under consideration which could provide a further 2,600 jobs.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that encouraging reply, which is an indication of the confidence of Ford in the quality of Welsh workers. Is he aware that there is a very close connection between the car industry and the steel industry, particularly as regards the quality of steel, which affects both industries? Is he further aware of the unanimous decision taken last Thursday by the Steel Development Committee for West Wales calling for immediate investment in a new mill at Port Talbot with a view to the quality of steel? Will he remind the British Steel Corporation and the Secretary of State for Industry of the commitment in the House in July 1976 that this investment would be proceeded with immediately?

If my advice had been followed in July 1976, that mill would have been well under way by now. It is a matter of deep regret that the matter was not taken up by the BSC at the time. I am concerned naturally about the quality of steel, both for tinplate and for the motor industry, and I know also that the decision, subject to manning agreements, to invest in continuous casting, amounting to £80 million to £100 million, at Port Talbot has been very much welcomed.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall the debate in the Welsh Grand Committee when the question of stimulation of industry by the WDA was raised, and hon. Members on both sides pressed for greater risk-taking by the Agency? Has he since had the opportunity to discuss with the Chairman of the WDA the opportunities for that body to stimulate industrial development in Wales by taking a greater equity stake and bearing greater risk?

The WDA continually looks out for opportunities to take investment by way of equities in firms. The amount that it has taken up so far is, as I recall it, about £7 million. Month after month, when I meet the chairman and chief executive of the board, this is one of the matters I discuss with them. I met the full board less than a fortnight ago.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that equally important as employment to Wales is the environment? Will he therefore ensure that the contract for the dangerous chemical Kepone, which is being shipped by the Allied Chemical Corporation of America to this country and is being disposed of by Re-Chem International at Pontypool, does not go ahead? What is dangerous to the American people is equally dangerous to the Welsh people.

That does not arise out of the Question. If my hon. Friend will put down a Question, I will see that he gets a proper answer.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will set up an inquiry into recent allegations concerning staff conduct at St. David's Hospital, Carmarthen; and if he will make a statement.

The Dyfed Area Health Authority is making inquiries into recent newspaper allegations of misconduct by staff at St. David's Hospital, Carmarthen. It has so far found no substance in these allegations. My right hon. and learned Friend cannot make a statement before the area health authority's inquiries have been completed, but I should like to take this opportunity to express my sympathy with staff of the hospital who understandably feel, as I do, that their collective reputation has been unfairly impugned by these anonymous imputations.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, despite the recent story in the Daily Mirror, the hospital enjoys a high reputation, and that I and others have received representations from patients protesting at what they regard as a disreputable slur on the staff? Is he further aware that so far neither the journalist concerned nor anyone else has come forward with any evidence of any kind? Will the hon. Gentleman undertake that, when inquiries are complete, there will be a full report so that the public may be aware of whatever the true circumstances were?

My right hon. and learned Friend will make a statement when he has had a report from the area health authority. I have great admiration for the work done by those who care for the mentally ill. But when allegations involving the wellbeing of patients are made, even though they are made anonymously, we have a responsibility to make sure that there is not abuse, and a thorough investigation provides the best possible answer to any unjustified slurs. I know that the staff of St. David's understand this. Indeed, I believe that they themselves requested the inquiry.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Daily Mirror, which alone published these allegations, has failed to produce any evidence to substantiate them, either to the police or to the health authorities? Does he agree that this kind of sensational and irresponsible journalism should be heavily condemned?

The police were informed immediately of the report of the Daily Mirror because the allegations, if true, would have criminal implications. I understand that the information made available to them did not, in their view, justify further formal inquiries on their part as police. I would add that we are ready to give further help to this hospital this year. Planning work is going ahead for two new units, totalling 70 beds, in order to replace some of the poorest accommodation. That will entail expenditure of over £500,000.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will increase the financial provisions made to the Development Board for Rural Wales.

I am satisfied that we have made sufficient current provision for the Development Board for Rural Wales to carry out its tasks effectively. The figure for 1977–78 was about £5 million, and I expect that the sum available to the Board in 1978–79 will be of the order of £6 million.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the board may be too successful within its limits, in that way it may not have factories available to let before the year is out? Could he not allow it some extra funds in order to create some larger units and some custom-built units, which is what it seems to need? Will he also ask the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) to refute the comments he made in the Welsh Grand Committee when he put the future of the board in some doubt, thus jeopardising the activities of people in the area?

Having been in existence only a year, the board has made a most promising start, whether one is talking in terms of its factory programme—the numbers let or under construction—or in terms of grants or loans or of the policy consultative document. Indeed, I was rather disturbed that the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) raised at least some doubt—which was commented on by Members of all parties on the Welsh Grand Committee—whether the Development Board for Rural Wales, an important board, would be assured of its separate existence should the tragedy of a Conservative Government being returned to office occur.

Does the Minister agree that, whereas the Development Board for Rural Wales is the most promising agency for the development and resuscitation of rural Wales, one of its tasks should be to expand certain of the villages as well as the towns on which it is concentrating at present? To do this, does it not need extra funds from the Government?

I do not dissent essentially from what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. That is why I am particularly pleased that the board has now published for the first year its policy consultative document, on which the views of all local authorities and other organisations can be taken into account. When we have those views, my right hon. and learned Friend can make decisions.

With regard to finance, how is it that the board is able to give loans and is not able to give grants, unlike the Highlands and Islands Development Board in Scotland, which is able to give small loans and grants? Will the Minister look at this again?

It is true that the powers of the Development Board for Rural Wales are not identical with those of the Highlands and Islands Development Board, but we have found, certainly from its first year of existence, that the board has adequate powers to meet the task which it is trying to overcome.

If it is correct that there are more industries wishing to go to Mid-Wales than there are factories to accommodate them, will my hon. Friend direct those industries to Anglesey, where there are factories to accommodate them?

I think that we could direct such industries to a number of parts of the Principality. I make it quite clear, in regard to the number of factories, that at this moment there are seven factories which are unlet, 13 are still under discussion, and 13 more have been announced.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to assist the tourist industry in those parts of Wales that are outside the development area.

The whole of Wales benefits from the Wales Tourist Board's expenditure on publicity, research and general promotion. My right hon. and learned Friend is considering the representations he has received to revise the arrangements for assistance to tourist projects under Section 4 of the Development of Tourism Act 1969.

I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State is reviewing the matter, but will he not agree that the criterion of the boundaries which apply has no relevance whatsoever to the needs of the tourist industry in the areas outside, where the criteria are entirely different, particularly as his Government impose such vicious taxation policies upon those areas?

I do not believe that the taxation policy of the Government is vicious. I would say to the hon. Member, who has raised this issue with regard to tourism a number of times, that the matter of boundaries is not for my right hon. and learned Friend but for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is some feeling outside the development areas that the Government are mixing two objectives—the real need to stimulate employment within the development areas, and the need to strengthen tourism? Will he promise to discuss this matter with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade?

I agree that there is great feeling about this. I experienced the strength of opinion when before Easter I visited the North Wales coast at Rhyl, Llandudno and Colwyn Bay, where people face the same predicament as the people in the Chepstow area to which the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thomas) referred. There that strong feeling came out very clearly, but the people were satisfied that the Welsh Office was listening as sympathetically as it could in the situation. Certainly, my right hon. and learned Friend will be having discussions in Whitehall with regard to this problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received about the high level of unemployment, particularly male unemployment, in the Cardiff area.

I received a deputation led by the Lord Mayor last November. I am well aware of the general concern about the high level of unemployment in the Cardiff area.

Is the Minister aware that the increase in male unemployment in the Cardiff travel-to-work area has over the last 12 months been 16·8 per cent. compared with a national average of 3·8 per cent.? Will he give an assurance that he will make maximum use of discretionary and steering powers to ensure that when East Moors works is closed a very bad situation will not be made catastrophic?

We are aware that over the past year, and certainly with the closure of East Moors works, the people living there faced a very serious problem, caused basically by unemployment. That is why we have already begun discussions with the Welsh Development Agency and with the city council and county council, in which we are proposing that work be started immediately on one or two sites in the Cardiff area. It is for that reason that my right hon. and learned Friend announced that about £4 million would be available immediately for the construction of factories and sites in the coming financial year.

Is it not a fact that, under the policies of the Conservative Government, the East Moors steel works would have been closed several years ago? Indeed, if their policy were pursued, Britain would have no steel industry at all, with the result that many more thousands of people, in Wales in particular, would now be on the dole.

I am very grateful that I have no responsibility in this House for the policies or suggestions made by the Conservative Party while in power, but the Conservatives seem to be learning wisdom the longer they stay in Opposition.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest number of persons unemployed in Wales; how many of these have been unemployed for more than three months; and what were the comparable figures in 1973.

On 9th March there were 88,479 persons unemployed in Wales. As to duration of unemployment, in January 1978 60,444 persons had been unemployed for more than three months. The comparable figures for January 1973 were 24,705 out of a total of 45,772.

Has the Minister reflected that he and his ministerial colleagues have now been in office for more than four years, and have been in office for 10 years out of the last 14? Are not these figures a very sad commentary on the quality of their service?

I am quite astonished that the hon. Gentleman, in discussing what is rightfully a serious problem in Wales and the United Kingdom, namely, the level of unemployment, should pay no attention to the fact that unemployment is a major problem affecting countries throughout Europe. Has the hon. Gentleman not heard of the world-wide recession? Has he not heard of the rapid increases in oil prices in recent years? It is true that unemployment is far too high in Wales, but the steps taken by the Government are intended to rectify that situation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it ill befits the official Opposition—whose policies of enthusiastic cuts in public expenditure, and the destruction of the agencies established to sponsor development and employment in areas such as Wales, would bring about a doubling of the unemployment rate—to make criticisms of this sort? Will he accept that there is need for an additional commitment, especially in the form of investment in the steel industry, and in the form of job sponsorship in Wales, so that we do not lose another generation of young people because of unemployment?

I agree with my hon. Friend that the measures which the Government have announced, specifically to help overcome unemployment in Wales, have almost inevitably been opposed by the Conservatives. I invite them to read again the speeches they made in the debate on the Welsh Development Agency when it was set up. I invite them also to think of the doubt which they have cast about the long-term existence, as a separate body, of the Development Board for Rural Wales. It is the aim of the Government to increase investment and to try to ensure that we have a good, strong, viable economic basis for employment prospects in Wales.

I am sure that the Minister is aware of the high unemployment figure in Ceredigion, in my constituency. In the towns of Cardigan, Llandyssil and Lampeter it is as high as 14 to 18 per cent. What plans has the hon. Gentleman in mind to persuade industrialists to come to our part of the country?

We are certainly aware of the problems facing the people of Ceredigion, and that is one of the reasons why we were pleased to be able to announce recently the advance factory programme in that area.

Is the Minister aware that what Wales needs is not a number of ad hoc expenditure schemes to disguise the disgraceful nature of the unemployment which has arisen under the Labour Government but cuts in taxation to stimulate the smaller business and the younger business on which the future employment of Wales relies?

The hon. Gentleman says that Wales does not need a great deal of expenditure on ad hoc solutions, but I invite him to say which of the measures the Conservative Party is opposed to would be subject to the type of cuts he suggests. Indeed, if its policies are carried out, many more people will be unemployed in Wales. I remind the hon. Gentleman that, as a consequence of the Government measures, 56,000 people in Wales have now benefited from the steps taken to save or create jobs, at a cost of over £50 million—public expenditure which the Conservatives would have cut.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.

In view of the fact that only half the Questions relating to Wales have been reached, Mr. Speaker, may I ask that the orders in which Questions are taken should be reviewed and that Welsh Questions should be taken more frequently than once every six weeks?

I am afraid that Welsh eloquence has defeated us.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent discussions he has had with the appropriate trade union leaders regarding staffing levels in the Civil Service.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what are the current levels of staffing in the Civil Service.

Discussions about staffing levels are part of the normal process of consultation with the appropriate Civil Service trade union leaders. As my hon. Friends will appreciate, the Government have taken steps to contain the size and cost of the Civil Service, and will continue to do so in the future. At the latest available date, 1st January 1978, there were 738,000 civil servants. This is some 8,200 lower than the corresponding 1977 figure.

Have my right hon. Friend's negotiations with the various trade unions been hampered by the proposed cuts in various Departments? Have the threatened cuts in the DHSS resulted in the fact that old people are not being visited to the extent they should when claiming supplementary benefit? Should we not try to prevent this situation, and will he assist by telling the Ministers concerned that we shall not wear this any longer?

I shall convey that point to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, but I remind my hon. Friend that public expenditure cuts have had an impact on all sections of the community. It would have been wrong to exclude the Civil Service from those cuts.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the figures quoted prove that much of the criticism made of the numbers of civil servants is unjustified? Do they not disprove the myth that the Civil Service is constantly growing in size? Does he also agree that cash limits have led to larger cuts in numbers in the Civil Service than were intended by the public expenditure cuts? Will he review the position and consider increasing numbers in such areas as were suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner)?

In reply to my hon. Friend's first point, I must point out that clobbering the Civil Service has become almost a national sport. It is right to criticise the Civil Service, but I believe that any criticism should be informed.

On the subject of dispersal of civil servants, does that process have any effect on staffing levels, and is the Minister satisfied with having achieved only 9 per cent. of his target figures of 30,000 for dispersal?

The question of the dispersal of the Civil Service will be dealt with in a later Question, but I am satisfied with the progress that is being made in implementing the dispersal proposals envisaged in the Hardman Report. The dispersal programme was scheduled to take place over a 10-year period, from 1974 to 1984.

The Minister said that the number in the Civil Service had dropped by 8,000 compared with the previous year. Will he go a little further and say how the figure has changed since 1970 or 1974, and what criteria are used by the Government in deciding the appropriate and efficient levels of manpower in any particular public service?

The size of the Civil Service is determined by the tasks which this House gives it to undertake. I had no responsibility for the Civil Service during the period from 1970 to 1974.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in increasing the percentage of employees of Government Departments who are registered disabled.

I can assure my hon. Friend that I am very concerned to ensure that opportunities to employ registered disabled people in the Civil Service are not overlooked and Departments are well aware of their responsibilities in this matter.

If the Government are to give a lead in the employment of disabled persons, should not the proportion of civil servants registered as disabled be higher than the 3 per cent. prescribed for all large employers, and are not some Government Departments still well below that figure?

I am not wholly satisfied with the progress made in recruiting registered disabled persons to the Civil Service, but we should not minimise the contribution made by the Civil Service to the employment of such persons. It is a fact that the Civil Service, in employing 14,000 registered disabled persons, is the largest single employer of such people.

How can the Minister be as complacent as he sounds when only 6 per cent. of Government Departments employ their quota of disabled persons compared with 37 per cent. employed by private firms? Is he aware that obstacles are placed on the Civil Service in respect of the employment of disabled people—such as the regulation that prevents sheltered employment?

I do not accept that my comments could be interpreted in any way as complacent. I must remind the hon. Gentleman that not only do I have to face pressure from him and many of my many of my colleagues, but my brother is the Minister with responsibility for disabled people, and he keeps me on my toes on this subject. It is not true for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that the Civil Service makes life difficult for registered disabled people to come into the Civil Service. We go to great lengths to recruit registered disabled people.

Too long.

Order. No wonder we are making slow progress.

Is the Minister aware that he will have full support from the Conservative Benches for any measures aimed at improving the employment of disabled people within the Civil Service? Will he give some estimate of the number of disabled people who are employed in the Civil Service who would qualify to be registered as disabled but who have not taken the step of registering as such?

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support for the Government's efforts at recruiting such people to the Civil Service. I cannot give any estimates. There is a problem even within the Civil Service of encouraging disabled civil servants to register as disabled.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what contribution the Civil Service has made to the provision of jobs for young people in the context of Her Majesty's Government's work experience scheme for youth.

Thirty-six young people have been placed in Government Departments under work experience schemes. Discussions are proceeding about other schemes in a number of Departments.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the figure he announced constitutes a contemptible contribution to a vitally important area of activity? Does he agree that the pathetic endeavours undertaken by the Civil Service still leave vast room for improvement and will he give an assurance that those endeavours will be instituted very much more quickly?

I made the point earlier that there are areas in which the Civil Service can be criticised. I share the sense of outrage expressed by my hon Friend on this matter. I believe that 36 young people is a deplorable figure. He knows and the House recognises that the implementation of work experience schemes needs the full support of the trade union or staff association representatives concerned. The difficulty that we have encountered is that there is opposition from one of the major Civil Service trade unions.

asked the Lord President of the Council whether he has any further plans to reform the procedures of Select Committees.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on the future of Select Committees of the Commons and, in particular, on their terms of reference.

Our Select Committee procedures are one of the matters under consideration by the Select Committee on Procedure. I suggest that we await its report.

Does my right hon. Friend still agree that, if Select Committees are to remain—and there seem to be a lot of hon. Members on both sides, excluding me, who want that—they need to be drastically altered? Does he agree that one way to do this is to have separate secretariats for all the parties represented, which would provide a partisan cutting edge that has not been exhibited by the recent reports made by the Select Committees on steel and on race relations, for example? These reports have proved to be very rosy, consensus, coalition-type policies.

I am not sure whether all the aspects of the matter that my hon. Friend deplores would be dealt with by the remedy that he has suggested. When we look at the report of the Procedure Committee, we shall look at all these suggestions.

Does the Leader of the House agree that the operation of Select Committees makes the process of open government more open than it would otherwise be? Any move to restrict the endeavours of Select Committees would be regarded as very reactionary. Does he agree that, in principle, Select Committees should have the right to demand the presence of Ministers of the Crown if they so wish?

These are questions that we must consider when the Select Committee on Procedure reports. If I anticipate that report in any way, I shall be accused of prejudicing the Committee's recommendations.

Does the Leader of the House agree that there would be advantages to the Scottish Assembly in having a highly developed Committee system there? Although this House may lack the will to reform itself, Edinburgh presents the opportunity of returning genuine powers of scrutiny to Back Benchers.

Back Benchers have very considerable powers of scrutiny if they choose to exercise them. It is wrong to suggest that these powers of scrutiny can arise only if Back Benchers are members of Select Committees. Our experience over many years suggests that the opposite conclusion is true.

Will my right hon. Friend agree that Select Committees or any other type of Committee of this House cannot be above the party political battle? It is up to every member of every Select Committee to investigate the position on the basis of what he sees as being in the best interests of the people of this country. On that basis, my right hon. Friend might like to look very carefully at the proposals being put forward to the national executive of the Labour Party by the Machinery of Government Committee. These proposals take such points into consideration.

I shall look most carefully at all these proposals, which, I believe, should be considered with a clear and open mind. Like my hon. Friend, I believe that the maintenance of the party system is absolutely essential to the maintenance of democracy.

I recognise the views of the Leader of the House on Select Committees vis-à-vis this Chamber. However, will he agree that when a Committee's report is unanimous—such as the one on race relations—and in tune with the views of the vast majority of citizens, albeit not with those of the national executive committee of the Labour Party and the race relations industry, it is incumbent upon the Government, when intending to legislate on these matters, to take very careful note of such a report?

I will not comment on that particular report because, obviously, the Government will make their opinions known at a later stage. However, if the hon. Member is suffering under any illusion that the House always accepts the unanimous views of a Select Committee, he should examine the way in which the House voted on the unanimous report of the Select Committee into the corruption allegations. This shows not only that the House of Commons rejected the report but that some of the members of the Committee rejected their own recommendations.

asked the Lord President of the Council what proposals he has for the publication of the Register of Members' Interests.

I think that this is primarily a matter for the Select Committee on Members' Interests.

Does not the Lord President recall that, in reporting to the House as long ago as December 1976, he said that the status of the publication of the Register of Members' Interests was severely jeopardised by the action of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) in not conforming with the arrangements that were agreed to by the rest of us? The Lord President himself, in answering me in August last year, said that he hoped to make progress with an early report. When can we expect some firmer action from him?

I have had a considerable exchange of letters with the hon. Member on this matter and with some other hon. Members. However, not very many hon. Members have raised it with me. I believe that the recommendation of the Select Committee for dealing with this question is not a remedy which would assist the House, and for that reason I have not come forward with any recommendations. I think that, on reflection, the House will reach the same conclusion.

Will the Lord President confirm that the Register of Members' Interests is kept up to date and is available for inspection in the Clerk's Office upstairs? If the register is to be effective, does he not agree that considerable changes need to be made? For example, any fees drawn by MPs as directors or consultants should be shown, and share disclosure should be toughened up.

Whether we should alter the instructions given by the House to the Select Committee is another question. The hon. Member for Woking (Mr. van Straubenzee) was raising a particular question relating to the last motion put on the Order Paper from the Select Committee. The question about any proposals for widening the matter would have to be considered generally.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he has proposals for the modification of the control by the Treasury over the House of Commons Estimates.

Yes. As announced in the Government's reply to the Eleventh Report of the Expenditure Committee (Cmnd. 7117), the Government have decided to accept the Committee's recommendation that in future the proposed new House of Commons Commission should exercise the role now discharged by Treasury Ministers in relation to expenditure on the services and staff of the House. Accordingly, the House of Commons (Administration) Bill, now before the House, provides that from 1979–80 onwards the Estimate covering this expenditure will be laid before the House by the proposed new House of Commons Commission.

I thank the Leader of the House for that degree of change. Does he think that the proposals are sufficient to restore to the House the power that was foolishly surrendered in 1708—the power to initiate expenditure on matters that the House regards as its concern?

I have no doubt that many follies were committed in 1708 by the temporary Tory majority prevailing then, though I am not sure whether it was prior or subsequent to the election of that date. I am eager to reform these follies, but I believe that the House will have the opportunity to examine the Bill, which will mean a real and substantial improvement in the way that the House conducts its affairs.

Will the Leader of the House answer the specific point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr. Silvester)? Will the House have an opportunity to initiate items of expenditure, or will these still be the subject of a Treasury Minister's blessing?

That depends on the form of expenditure involved. There is a division between the forms of expenditure proposed in the Bill. The best way to discuss this is as the Bill goes through. We want the Bill to go through and to be on the statute book this Session. I am sure that hon. Members will show an interest in the way in which the Bill is shaped.

asked the Lord President of the Council what plans he has for amending the relationship between Select Committees and the Government.

asked the Lord President of the Council what is his policy towards the more effective use of Select Committees, and if he will make a statement.

This is a matter now being considered by the Select Committee on Procedure, and the Government will naturally give full consideration to this report when it appears.

Reverting to the comments that the Lord President made just now, may I ask whether he agrees that issues like steel and immigration are matters of party political difference and bear no relation to the personal Select Committee report that he mentioned? In view of that, does he not believe that Governments will be wise to concede that in future, if there is a unanimous report of a Select Committee on an issue of national importance, there should automatically be a debate in Government time within three months of publication of the report, and that at the end of the debate the Whips should be withdrawn and there should be a free vote in the House?

I do not believe that that proposition should be automatically accepted. When the House considers the full question of the operation of Select Committees in future, it will agree that this is a matter of great importance for the future of the House as a whole. I do not believe that all hon. Members will jump to the conclusions that the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley) has reached. We should await the report of the Committee which is examining the matter at length and then debate it.

I agree with the Lord President that we could await the Select Committee report on the structure of Select Committees, but does he not agree that an effective Select Committee system is much needed in order to improve the efficiency and working of Parliament so that it can check the miscalculations and follies of Governments and civil servants? Will he not at least ensure that Select Committee reports are debated on the Floor of the House while the subject matter is still topical and fresh in the minds of hon. Members?

That course is highly desirable when there are such matters and that is what we seek to do when we can. However, I can think of no Government that would undertake that they would always arrange debates within a certain period. It would not be for the convenience of the House for that to occur. Members of Select Committees should also bear in mind that other hon. Members also have rights which must be preserved as well as the rights of those who serve on Select Committees.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the fact that recent Select Committee reports have given rise to great controversy is a matter for satisfaction rather than otherwise? Does he also agree that there should be some arrangement for minority reports or notes of dissent by members of a Select Committee if they strongly differ from the majority view?

I understand that any minority on a Committee can insist on having a minority report. That right must obviously be preserved.