asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the way in which bodies financed or sponsored by the Government promote the interests of Wales in other countries.

Yes.

Will the Secretary of State take the initiative in co-ordinating the industrial, commercial and tourist bodies in Wales with a view to establishing, with Government financial assistance, an attractive centre in London which would be a focal point of Welsh interests and which would further them? Does he agree that it would be a good thing if such a centre compared well with the one for Scotland just opened near Trafalgar Square and those which other countries, such as Ireland and Iceland, have?

This suggestion has been made before. I shall draw it to the attention of the Development Corporation of Wales and the Welsh Development Agency.

Does not my right hon. and learned Friend agree that in recent months the promotional activities of the Welsh Development Agency, especially in its Press publicity and promotional folders, has been quite excellent? Indeed, it is improving all the time. However, will he give consideration to the idea of setting up a Libyan-Welsh friendship association which could probably concentrate on the sale of Welsh sheep to Libya, as suggested by Plaid Cymru a couple of years ago?

Fortunately, the external relationships between the nationalist party and whoever is in charge in Libya are not my responsibility. I recall that suggestion being made some years ago, but by the end of the silly season it seemed to have disappeared out of sight.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many applications have been received by the Manpower Services Commission in Wales to date for financial assistance towards projects under the youth opportunities programme and the special temporary employment programme; and how many jobs are associated with these projects, respectively.

I am informed by the Manpower Services Commission in Wales that, during April this year, it received 312 applications which would provide 717 places in the youth opportunities programme and 13 applications providing 134 places in the special temporary employment programme for adults.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, whereas the youth opportunities programme appears to have got off to a reasonable start, the STEP seems to be well below the level of activity in the job creation scheme 12 months previously? I am in no way criticising the performance of the Welsh Office or the Welsh unit of the Manpower Services Commission, because this is a British problem arising from reorganisation. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman look into this matter to see whether it is possible to get a greater dynamism in order to bring to the attention of potential sponsors the opportunities that exist under the STEP?

The detailed application of this programme is a matter for the Manpower Services Commission. The Government have supplied a large amount of money for the area boards to operate. The success of these schemes will depend upon the co-operation and willingness of industry, local authorities and all sorts of bodies to devise and sponsor schemes. I take cognisance of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I do not accept that there is falling back, but I shall watch very carefully to see how this programme develops, certainly from September.

Do not the figures given recently by Ministers for the total number of jobs provided under the various job creation schemes show that there are now about 150,000 people in Wales, including a very large number of young people, who are unemployed, without permanent jobs, or without jobs that offer long-term prospects? Is that what the Secretary of State meant when before the last General Election he spoke about "back to work with Labour"?

If the hon. Gentleman is responsible, as I hope he is, I hope that he will not pour cold water over the enormous efforts that have been made in a whole series of measures to provide employment for people. If he wants to see more people on the dole, without hope, then, of course, he will do that. But we have provided a large number of job opportunities—about 60,000—for people in Wales. I hope very much that the programme which the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley) welcomed a few moments ago will provide increased provision for young people in the course of the coming year. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw any suggestion that that is not an important facet of life which is welcomed in Wales, because it is sorely needed.

I hope that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is not suggesting that they are permanent jobs. Will not he agree that a total of 89,000 people out of work plus those in temporary jobs is a pretty bleak prospect for the young people of Wales?

I have said all along that these figures are appallingly high. But I am confident that the public expenditure proposals of the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) and those which he campaigns for and advocates here—although he is the first to speak out for expenditure in his own area—if his party ever came to power, would mean a substantial increase in unemployment because the Conservatives would slash public expenditure right across the line, especially in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has for major hospital extensions and new hospital building over the next five years.

My right hon. and learned Friend's aim is to bring into operation the schemes at Rhyl and at Bangor and to make a start on the next round of major hospital developments for the 1980s which were announced in December 1976 at Bridgend, Llanelli, Wrexham Maelor, Morriston and St. Woolos, Gwent. In addition, we are discussing with authorities the detailed content of a programme of other schemes costing up to £1 million each.

Although I acknowledge the general need for extensive hospital improvements throughout Wales, will not my hon. Friend accept that we have been waiting a very long time for and had promises on two occasions of a new district general hospital to serve West Gwent and that consultative opinion and general practitioner opinion have now joined other opinions in those areas to emphasise the desperate need for such hospital provision to cut waiting lists, to provide new means and to relieve my constituents and others of the enormous costs of travel as out-patients and visitors to these hospitals?

My hon. Friend has campaigned for a long time on this issue. However, the Gwent Area Health Authority advised that priority should be given to the development of the Royal Gwent and St. Woolos hospitals. Scheme 5 of the Royal Gwent developments will be completed later this year, and the scheme at St. Woolos is at an advanced stage of planning. I can tell my hon. Friend specifically that the long-term objective of the area health authority is a third district general hospital to serve the western part of Gwent.

Is the hon. Gentleman yet in a position to give any idea of the latest expected date for the operation of the district general hospital at Rhyl?

I should need notice of that question to give a detailed answer, but I estimate that some time next year is the hoped-for date.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, because of greatly increased pressure, the facilities now at the West Wales General Hospital at Carmarthen are gravely inadequate and that if the position continues to be neglected it could become critical? Is he further aware that this is the only acute hospital in Wales which lacks an intensive care unit?

Other parts of Dyfed are saying stridently that they should be the first in the queue for available money for development. The Withybush scheme, which is a £7 million development, will be coming on stream this year, which will help the area of Dyfed and to some degree the hon. Member's constituency.

Can my hon. Friend confirm in terms that his announcement means that the new development at Morriston hospital will take place at the time originally envisaged and that there is no delay, as was feared some months ago?

We envisage no slippage, and I hope that authority to invite tenders for some of the schemes can be given by 1979. However, a final decision cannot be taken until the very detailed planning needed has been completed and there has been full and thorough consideration of the fairest and most equitable way to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many houses were started in Wales in the public and private sectors in the first quarter of 1978; and if he is satisfied with the figures.

About 1,500 houses were started in the public sector and 1,450 in the private sector. These figures are significantly higher than those for the corresponding quarter of 1977, but I reserve judgment on whether the level is adequate until I have had an opportunity to study the housing strategy statements and investment programmes which are now coming in from all housing authorities.

I am grateful to the Minister for those figures. However, he has to realise that the annual rate which those figures imply is even lower than the annual rate last year, which was the worst year for house building since 1959. What do the Government intend to do about it? What encouragement is the hon. Gentleman giving to house builders in both sectors?

Among the matters which should be taken into account is that the limiting factor on house building in the public sector in Wales during the past two years has not been the failure of the Government to allocate resources. In two consecutive years it has been the failure of housing authorities, for one reason or another, to take up and use all the money allocated for that purpose.

Given that underspend on the public sector side to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention, can he say what lessons the Welsh Office has learnt in terms of closer liaison with local authorities to ensure that the underspend which has occurred over the past two years does not continue in future?

I hope that not only will the lessons of the past two years be learnt but that the fact that we have now set up the Welsh Housing Consultative Committee will give us the sort of liaison and co-operation between the Welsh Office Housing Division and local authorities in Wales to which my hon. Friend refers. But it is important to recognise that no authority in Wales this year has had any scheme cut out from the programmes which the authorities submitted to us in November.

In view of what the Minister has just said, can he confirm that no authority will be held back from any house construction scheme because it is approaching the limits of its provisional allocation of finance, in line with what he told Dwyfor District Council last summer for the last financial year? Can the hon. Gentleman also indicate whether there is any updating of the cost yardstick data on which housing plans are judged, in view of the very tight nature of these yardsticks in rural areas?

As regards building this year, every housing authority in Wales submitted its physical programme to us and we told each of them that it could carry on and build the whole of its programme. Now the responsibility is on the local authorities to show that they can use the money available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that gazumping is back in Wales and that it is being practised most maliciously by house construction companies in the private sector which, in my constituency and probably in others, have put up house prices by as much as £2,000 and £2,500 to prospective purchasers, thereby causing great distress whilst undertaking great profiteering? Has my hon. Friend any suggestions which could be introduced in law to prevent companies from engaging in practices of this kind?

I shall be grateful to my hon. Friend if he can give me details of some specific cases, because it is difficult to talk about these subjects in general terms. But, of course, one reason why the building society lending levels were reduced was to discourage the sort of activity to which my hon. Friend has referred.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to improve standards of literacy and numeracy in Wales.

An improvement in standards of literacy and numeracy in the schools of Wales demands concerted action by all the partners in the education service.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that a National Coal Board spokesman said recently that between 10 per cent. and 15 per cent. of young applicants for jobs in the NCB were rejected as being virtually unemployable in terms of literacy and numeracy? Will he take vigorous steps to ensure that the youth of Wales have the advantage of improved standards and, consequently, the opportunity of getting jobs?

I should like to see details of the NCB report and perhaps to have the observations of the hon. Member for Cardiff, North-West (Mr. Roberts), who has a distinguished record in the education sevice. However, employers are seeking all the time higher standards from the young people of Wales. At the same time, I would not wish it to be thought that my Department was in any way complacent. We are already taking very positive action. There is to be an inquiry into the teaching of mathematics, and the Assessment of Performance Unit is urgently developing better instruments for assessing pupils' attainment. The tests for mathematics and reading are already being mounted in Wales.

Can the Minister say whether there is any evidence of deficiency in either literacy or numeracy in Welsh language schools?

I should like to have notice of such a detailed question. However, I say immediately that I am not aware of a decline in standards.

Now that the Secretary of State has, from 1st April, taken over responsibility for teacher training and supply, does he have plans to improve teacher training in Wales?

There is no doubt that I shall be having discussions throughout Wales on the assessment of how the teacher training establishments in Wales might contribute towards the attainment of better standards of literacy and numeracy.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representation he has received from local authorities in Wales regarding the present boundaries of assisted areas for industrial development in Wales and for aid to the tourist industry.

Since the beginning of 1977 I have received representations from nine local authorities in Wales regarding the present boundaries of assisted areas and from five local authorities regarding aid to the tourist industry.

Is the Minister satisfied with an arrangement whereby areas such as Rhyl, in my constituency, which has the highest level of male unemployment, receive the least amount of Government aid and, in particular, no aid at all for their tourist industry? Would it not be very much better to do away with special development areas, intermediate areas and so on and treat the whole of Wales as one development area?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would receive a great deal of approval in the House if he were to convince me that it was the right thing to do, unless he is an advocate, which I am sure he is not, of building an Offa's Dyke to separate Wales from the rest of the United Kingdom. There are different areas in Wales and there are different areas in England. We seek to ensure—though boundaries are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry—that the areas with the gravest problems in terms of numbers and proportions receive the maximum aid. However, we are constantly looking at the areas without the major aids. The area mentioned by the hon. Gentleman is in an intermediate area.

Does the Secretary of State accept that, as the definition of grants for industrial purposes has been more or less static for the past 10 or 12 years, the time may now be appropriate to consider the definitions of "industrial" and "service" for the purposes of defining grants in order to do away with the artificial differentiation between one type of job and another, particularly in areas where there have been difficulties in developing jobs?

This is a matter primarily for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. However, he and I are concerned to ensure that the money available is used to the best possible advantage to ensure the maximum number of jobs. But the danger is that the greater the area and the wider the classification, the less the value of any inducements that are offered.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend find that in Wales the labour exchange areas are not always the best areas to take for these purposes? Has he had any talks with his Scottish and English fellow Ministers with a view to getting a more workable system that has more relevance than the old labour exchange area had?

I have tried in Wales to concentrate our policies on the travel-to-work areas. However, I am not aware that the matter raised by my hon. Friend is a significant problem across Wales, though there are one or two areas in which problems might arise.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had on the issue of the incineration of kepone at the Re-chem factory in Pontypool; and whether he will make a statement.

I am in continuous touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment, and my Department is maintaining close liaison with the Health and Safety Executive.

In the representations that I trust the Secretary of State is making, will he emphasise to the Secretary of State for the Environment, as he is contemplating whether to allow the importation of this material, that when no State of the United States of America will permit the incineration of kepone upon its soil, the whole community of my valley is determined not to become the guinea pigs?

My hon. Friend has made representations to me, to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and I am sure to others on this subject. He will be aware that the proposal at present is subject to a Health and Safety Executive prohibition notice which will not be lifted until my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and I are completely satisfied that the disposal can go ahead without causing any environmental damage. I am fully aware of the position outlined by my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate his Department has of the number of school leavers for 1978 who will be entering the labour market in (a) Wales and (b) the county of South Glamorgan.

Estimates based on the results of last year's 10 per cent. sample survey of Welsh school leavers suggest that the figures will be of the order of 34,000 for Wales and 5,000 for South Glamorgan.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that in South Glamorgan there is a desperate shortage of jobs in the manufacturing sectors for youngsters leaving school? Does he not agree that the best way to create new jobs for them is to encourage private industry to make more and bigger profits, and for private individuals to be able to keep more post-tax income in order to create incentives?

We are giving every encouragement to private industry. We are giving every encouragement to small business, through the efforts of the Welsh Development Agency and others. We are also—I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome this—embarking on a major programme of advance factory building in his area.

I am sure that the Secretary of State for Wales is aware of the high unemployment figure in my constituency, especially in Cardigan, Llandyssul and Lampeter. What plans has he in mind to help the school leavers who will be leaving school at the end of this term?

In the Manpower Services Commission there are three area boards which will be considering the needs of school leavers who will not have found jobs in the ordinary course of events. Those area boards will be setting up their training programmes. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the number of advance factories that I have announced in his constituency and the success that the Development Board for Rural Wales has had in recent weeks and months in letting factories right across the board in Mid-Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what extra resources are made available to the National Health Service in Wales to cater for the exceptional levels of sickness, injury and impairment found there.

The special needs of the National Health Service in Wales are reflected in the fact that expenditure per head is more than 3 per cent. above the average for England over the period covered by the latest White Paper on public expenditure. Some expenditure on the NHS in England is also of benefit to Wales.

Is it not a fact that the number of days lost due to sickness in Wales is double that in England? Is it not true that about 30 per cent. more prescriptions are issued in Wales and that Wales suffers from more industrial accidents and much higher levels of impairment, regrettably, than England? Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the additional resources allocated per head are adequate to meet those exceptional needs in the Welsh context?

I am never satisfied about the amount of money available for the National Health Service in Wales. There is no established measure of health need. However, because the Government are dissatisfied with the inherited distribution of resources among authorities in England, Scotland and Wales, working groups are set up in each country to consider the matter. Their report suggests that there are disparities in existing resource distribution which the Government want to remove as quickly as resources will permit.

Does not my hon. Friend accept that one of the reasons for repeated visits to GPs, as an indicator of morbidity in the community, is the fact that we have not enough hospitals to provide curative treatment for people with diseases, notably respiratory and cardiac diseases? Will he pay more attention to that matter and to the fact that we have the highest infant mortality rate of any area of the United Kingdom? Will he perhaps sponsor additional research, which is very expensive, into the matter?

I am in agreement with the main points made by my hon. Friend. Late in 1977 the Welsh Office sponsored a morbidity seminar at which we investigated the problems to which my hon. Friend has referred. We in the Welsh Office are sensitive to the problems arising from our industrial heritage of the past century.

Does the Minister accept that one of the reasons for our high National Health Service expenditure in Wales lies in the fact that in many areas there is a pattern of ageing population? Does he realise that many people have moved to Wales in retirement and that the percentage of people over the ages of 60 and 65 is higher than in other parts of the United Kingdom? Has there been a survey on this aspect?

There are always surveys being made on these matters concerning the National Health Service in Wales. I know that the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Howells) will be sorry to have missed asking his Question, but I can tell him that there is currently a capital building programme in Wales of £24 million and that for the early 1980s we expect that there will be a building programme of about £31 million.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many advance factories have been allocated in the current year and if he will make a statement.

To date in 1978, 53 advance factories have been formally or provisionally allocated covering over ½ million sq. ft. to provide an estimated 2,740 jobs. In the corresponding period last year, the total was 13 factories covering 192,000 sq. ft. to provide 750 jobs.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that those figures, showing an increase year on year, will be very welcome? Can he also confirm that, looking at the past six months, we are also on a rising trend in terms of advance factory allocation?

I hope that I shall be able to satisfy my hon. Friend on that point. I shall be announcing today the letting of 12 advance factories—a substantial total to announce in one day. The numbers of inquiries and applications for selective assistance have risen substantially as compared with the same period last year. We are certainly on a rising trend.

May I ask the Secretary of State to tell me whether one of the 12 factories which he is to announce today is the 50,000 sq. ft. factory at Pentwyn, in my constituency, as he has been saying for over three years that he has been expecting to be able to let it at any moment?

That factory is not being announced today as having been let. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that a factory of that size is certainly an attractive proposition, and I am anxious that we get a suitable tenant for it.

Does not the Secretary of State realise that something over 2,000 jobs in advance factories at a time when we have 90,000 people unemployed is totally unsatisfactory? Has he seen an article in a recent issue of New Scientist which contained a devastating analysis of the failure of the advance factory programme in Gwynedd? When will the Government tackle the problem?

The hon. Gentleman should realise that advance factories are only a part of the answer to the problem. It would be churlish of the hon. Gentleman not to welcome the fact that 2,740 jobs are expected in a matter of months. The other side of the coin is the enormous efforts the Government are making to decentralise Government Departments and send jobs to Wales. It is odd that the hon. Gentleman should campaign for more jobs for Wales yet his party should be against the decentralisation of Government Departments, particularly the move of the Ministry of Defence to Cardiff.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will make a statement on the future of his Department's regional policy.

The Government remain firmly committed to their regional policy. The Department of Industry, in close co-operation with the other Departments concerned, continues to promote investment and employment in the assisted areas.

Will the Minister give details of the pay policy conditions now being attached to offers of regional assistance which are threatening 1,000 jobs at Schreibers, at Runcorn New Town, and no doubt many other jobs in assisted areas elsewhere? Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether such conditions are now being attached to every offer of assistance under regional policy and, if so, can he say what is the authority in law for attaching those conditions to offers of assistance to projects which in every other respect satisfy the criteria of the Industry Act 1972?

The matter raised by the hon. Member is one for negotiation which is currently under way. He would hardly expect me to embark on a detailed explanation of the negotiations which are generally confidential to the Department of Industry. The Department's policy remains firm and fixed, namely, that we shall try to use our best endeavours to promote regional policy and bring jobs to the regions.

May I thank my hon. Friend for his reaffirmation of the Government's support for regional policy Does he agree that if the Conservatives had their way and regional incentives were cut the impact on areas such as the North-East would be disastrous?

That is certainly true. In 1976–77, the Government spent almost £720 million on regional assistance. It is interesting that Opposition Front Bench spokesmen and many other Conservatives have called for cuts in public expenditure while at the same time many Tories plead for more money for their constituencies. Earlier this afternoon, we heard two Conservative Members representing Welsh seats pleading for more money for the National Health Service, while one Tory Member representing a Welsh seat wanted the whole of Wales to be turned into a special development area. The Opposition ought to get their priorities sorted out.

Will the Minister say whether the pay policy conditions are now being attached to all offers of regional assistance and, if so, what is the authority in law for that? The hon. Gentleman is in no way inhibited, because of his negotiations with Schreibers, from answering those important general questions.

If the hon. Member will table specific questions on this point, we shall give specific answers.

In view of events last week, whereby the Conservative Opposition sought to reduce tax revenue, which led to the Government saying that they would seek to raise that revenue by putting up employers' national insurance contributions, may I ask the Government to use that revenue-raising method on a differential regional basis in place of the regional employment premium, which was abolished recently?

As my hon. Friend has pointed out, the Conservative Opposition want it all ways. They seek further public expenditure and the reduction of taxes for the well-off. I shall bring my hon. Friend's points to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

Is the Minister aware that the case for a radical reform of regional policy is nowhere better illustrated than in the Aberdeen area? Does he realise that in the Aberdeen area oil and oil-related companies, which would locate there irrespective of whatever inducements the Government offered, are still capable of attracting Government aid whereas non-oil companies are now prevented by the Government from drawing the full amount of aid that is available to the same type of companies in other areas?

The Government are always looking at regional policy to see by which means it can be best applied. We understand that there are certain circumstances which create difficulties, although I do not accept that the hon. Member has raised any. We are constantly re-examining regional policy. We believe that, by and large, in a difficult situation with a recession affecting other European countries, if we did not have our regional aid policy the regions would be far and away worse off.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry to what extent local business experience is employed in assessing assistance under the Industry Act.

As our criteria describe, local and national industrial implications are taken into account in appraising applications for selective assistance. The local industrial context is provided through the Government's regional centres which cover all localities in the United Kingdom and maintain continuing contacts with the development and needs of industry in their areas. These offices include among their staff business men on secondment. For the main assisted areas, where structural problems and unemployment are at their most serious, the bulk of proposals are placed before independent regional industrial development boards, whose membership is drawn from the local industrial and financial community.

Is the Minister aware that I am pleased that he has been able to list some areas where he takes local advice? Will he agree that it is important for the people in these areas to feel that they are participating closely in the assessment of aid? Is he further aware that local business men have a great deal of experience, particularly when it comes to matters relating to the skills and the work force available? Will he see what he can do further to extend the involvement of these gentlemen?

As I have said, the independent regional industrial development boards already contain representatives from the business community. The Department is always willing to seek and receive advice. It is difficult to know what further action we can take to meet the hon. Member's point.

Does the Minister take any notice of the advice he receives from local business men? Can he cite any local business man who supports the unlawful policy of the Government of bullying small firms in the assisted areas merely because they will not comply with the Government's pay policy?

The hon. Gentleman's assertion is totally unfounded. There has been no bullying of small firms by the Government. Small firms frequently find themselves more bullied by large firms, which have the support of Opposition Members. The Government have given a great deal of support and encouragement to small firms, and the Opposition should recognise that. In the regions these matters are considered by the various regional boards. There has been a caseload of more than 3,000, and the advice given has been accepted in those circumstances.

Will the hon. Gentleman have discussions with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment about the position in Great Yarmouth and that area generally to ascertain whether something may be done to give more help, bearing in mind that lately the area has suffered greatly?

That suggests to me that the hon. Gentleman is wanting more public expenditure for Yarmouth. The Opposition should clarify their hypocrisy. Externally they constantly call for cuts in public expenditure except when they affect their own constituencies. When that happens, they come bleating to the Government asking for more money.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. It is a bit rough for hon. Members to be called hypocrites when they ask simple questions.

I think that the term was used in a general sense.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what is the element of subsidy provided on food served in Civil Service dining rooms and canteens in the various Ministries whose headquarters are in London.

By direct subsidy, just over 2p per day per employee, covering both meals and tea or coffee, based on about 50 per cent. of civil servants having access to staff restaurants. The figure for the London area is just over 2½p.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the loss on the catering of the House of Commons is due to large numbers of people other than Members of Parliament using the refreshment services? Is he also aware that the charges for meals in the dining rooms and canteens in Whitehall are cheaper than in this place?

I am not aware that the cost of meals in dining rooms and restaurants in the Civil Service Department or any other Department of State is cheaper than in this place. On the general question of the financial implications of providing meals in staff restaurants, the hon. Gentleman might be interested to know that the Industrial Society surveyed the catering provisions of more than 100 firms in 1976. It reported that about 33 per cent. of the companies recovered only the cost of the food from their staff.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of the best natural food that can be obtained is in Scotland? Will he try to persuade some of the more senior civil servants, who appear to be dragging their feet on dispersal, that by no means the least of the advantages that they would have on expediting the dispersal of civil servants to Glasgow would be to get some good food?

In that regard I agree with my hon. Friend. I hope that civil servants generally will have noted his comments.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a further statement on the progress made towards reintroducing pay research into Civil Service pay determination.

The Pay Research Unit has begun its survey work, which will be carried out under the auspices of the new Pay Research Unit Board. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced the appointments of the chairman and outside members of the Board on 27th February and 10th May respectively.

In view of recent reports which show that the pay of the Armed Forces, the doctors and the dentists has fallen behind general pay increases, will my right hon. Friend not be surprised if the Pay Research Unit reaches a similar conclusion on Civil Service pay? If it does, will he give an assurance that the Government will face their obligation to give public sector employees a fair deal and that they will not seek to avoid the conclusions of pay research?

There are a number of issues that surprise me from time to time. I cannot give any assurances on hypothetical situations that may arise in 1979.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment constantly says that the Government's attitude towards the closed shop is one of neutrality? In the present negotiations and in other negotiations involving the Civil Service, why are the Government so frightened of the imposition of a closed shop on the industry?

The closed shop is in no way related to the Question to which I am addressing myself.

Despite what my right hon. Friend says, will he think again about the proposal put forward to the trade unions about the closed shop before the next round of pay negotiations begins? Is he aware of the strong feeling on this issue which has been generated by the proposals which have been published? Will he think again about the proposals put to the unions and consider whether the closed shop principles which have been accepted for other trade unions outside the public sector should not be adopted for the Civil Service?

The Government are well aware of the intense feelings among Civil Service unions on union membership agreements. However, negotiations are proceeding and I do not wish to anticipate the outcome.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the progress made in dealing with the pay claims of civil servants.

I expect this week to conclude a settlement with the unions representing non-industrial staff which provides for consolidation of the 1976 and 1977 pay supplements, an across-the-board increase of 9½ per cent. and a start to be made on the rectification of anomalies. The settlement is within the Government's guidelines and the operative date is 1st April.

Will my hon. Friend tell us whether, among the people to whom he is referring, there are any on a basic rate of £32 a week? As regards the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), is he aware that industrial civil servants are on that kind of basic wage? That is intolerable. Does he agree that the proposed phase 4 recommended by the Government of an increase of about 7 per cent. would be understandably unacceptable to those industrial civil servants? Will he assure the House that there will be a degree of flexibility in whatever phase 4 there might be to take care of these highly deserving people?

I cannot confirm whether industrial civil servants are on a basic rate of £32 a week, but I can confirm that some have take-home pay of that order.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next expects to meet representatives of trade unions in the Civil Service.

I am in regular contact with representatives of the Civil Service unions.

Will my right hon. Friend encourage all the Civil Service unions to follow the example of the Society of Civil and Public Servants, which is firmly committed to job dispersal? Will he give an assurance that the Government's plans for job dispersal to Scotland and other places will not be blocked by a handful of senior civil servants who just want to hang on to their own power base in Whitehall?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend as he has given me the opportunity of making absolutely clear the Government's commitment to the dispersal of civil servants under the Hardman Committee's report. We intend to disperse 30,000 civil servants from London and the South-East to the geographical locations indicated.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that members of the Civil Service unions feel strongly that there is no case for moving the laboratory of the Government Chemist from London to Cumbria and taking most of the scientists with it? If he takes into account the feelings of the unions, will he give further consideration to the issue and consider that the circumstances which applied when the original decision was taken no longer apply and that the whole policy needs to be rethought?

I cannot accept that the whole policy needs to be rethought. It has been under examination since 1974. The benefits that the dispersal of civil servants brings to the regional locations which suffer from structural unemployment can be the determining factor.

Before my right hon. Friend next meets the leaders of the Civil Service unions, will he address himself to the publication of the Transport and General Workers Union entitled "A Fair Deal for Government Workers"? Will he take into account the 10-point proposition for the improvement of wages and conditions for industrial civil servants organised by that union and others, and remember that thousands of industrial civil servants receive pay that is less than supplementary benefit level?

I am conscious of the policy statement to which my hon. Friend draws my attention. The negotiations on an increase of pay for industrial civil servants are about to start. The operative date for the increase will be 1st July. I hope that an offer will be made to the unions representing industrial civil servants in early June.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Opposition will give support to the Government in resisting the outrageous claims made by leaders of some Civil Service unions for a closed shop? These claims are not supported by the membership of the unions. Does he agree that many other Civil Service unions take a wiser and more responsible attitude? Will he convey to his colleagues that we should like to see the same conditions as the Government are laying down for closed shops in the Civil Service extended throughout industry and commerce?

The hon. Gentleman is entitled to interpret the Government's position on union membership agreements. The factor that the Government hold to be crucial in the negotiations on UMAs is the accountability of the Government and Ministers to this House. Those circumstances do not exist in the private sector.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will consider proposing to the House that for an experimental period a time limit should be imposed on speeches in the Chamber.

No, Sir.

Does the Leader of the House recall the old wisdom—that there is no need for a speech to be eternal to be immortal? As voluntary efforts to shorten the length of speeches in this House have not been very successful, especially among Front Bench speakers and Back Bench Privy Councillors, has not the time come to try compulsion?

Hon. Members on both sides of the House may have their own different views on this subject. I think that few things could interfere more with the essential rights of Back-Bench Members than the introduction of a time limit.

Will my right hon. Friend consider a system whereby each Member at the beginning of the Session is given an allocation of time based on an estimate of the total time available and that any time he uses in the House, whether in speeches. Questions or points of order, should come out of his allocation? Would not that result in shorter speeches and fewer bogus points of order and other vexations?

I am not sure. What my right hon. Friend suggests might result in taciturnity at the beginning of the Session and garrulity at the end. I am not sure that that would be a good system.

Are you aware, Mr. Speaker, that Back-Bench Members get more help from you in this matter than we seem to get from the Leader of the House? You give great encouragement to short Back-Bench speeches. Therefore, we look to the Leader of the House for shorter Front-Bench speeches.

I am in favour of shorter Front-Bench speeches. But I should point out that if the hon. Gentleman goes back over the history of the House of Commons for a number of years he will see that many of our most distinguished Back-Bench Members, whether Winston Churchill in the 1930s or Aneurin Bevan in the 1950s, would not have been able to make the contributions that they made if a rigid timetable had been enforced on Back-Bench Members.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will seek to alter the situation so that this honourable House may increase taxation without a Ways and Means Resolution.

The financial procedures of the House are within the remit of the review being undertaken by the Procedure Committee. I suggest we await any proposals it may put forward.

Does not the Lord President think it intolerable that a sovereign Parliament should be prevented from doing whatever it likes, including increasing taxation? In the long years of opposition that lie ahead for the Labour Party, would it not console it if it were able to indulge in its favourite sport of putting up taxation without its having to take effect?

The much more immediate question is how the official Opposition are to make their amendments passed the other day coherent to the country. I can understand that the hon. Gentleman has put down the Question on that basis. I suggest that the best way to proceed, in changing procedure on such a matter, is for the Procedure Committee to look at it. I certainly would not exclude such a proposition.

Does the Lord President think that it would be of particular advantage at this time if he expressed more clearly than he has done his own views on this matter? When we have a minority Government, is it not particularly important that it should be possible for the Opposition to change taxation? Will the right hon. Gentleman be more positive about this matter?

If any Leader of the House were to propose changing this practice without a reference to the Procedure Committee, he would be justly criticised. That is what I have suggested.

asked the Lord President of the Council what consultations he has held concerning his commitment relating to the practice of the House to debate important EEC proposals prior to decisions in Brussels.

As I said in November, the House will have the opportunity to decide upon the question of the Government's undertaking before the end of this Session. I shall consult interested parties as soon as possible.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that on 28th November last he called my motion modest? Does he still resist the notion that this House or its Committees shall decide which matters shall be debated and not rest on the decision of a Minister of the Crown? If he holds that position and brings forward a motion to that effect, will it not be putting the House back into the position prior to 1688?

The House will be able to judge whether I am making any such outlandish propositions when I bring forward the motion. I agree that the matter that we then debated was important, even though my hon. Friend's proposal did not carry us as far as he would wish in such a matter. I shall bring the proposition before the House at a fairly early date and the House itself will be able to judge.

Does the Leader of the House recall a suggestion that I put to him about three months ago, namely, that in order to avoid ridiculous late night debates on EEC matters we should perhaps, on one day a month, have a Consolidated Fund type of debate with votes at reasonable hours, say, 5 o'clock, 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock? As all three major parties, at the time of entry to the European Community, accepted the liability properly to debate EEC legislation should they not now all agree to that?

I am not sure whether that would be the most satisfactory way of solving the problem. I acknowledge that there are problems. But if we did not have debates at various intervals, as we have them now, it might be less easy to comply with the recommendations of the Scrutiny Committee and to fit in with the times when Ministers have to be entrusted with undertaking negotiations in Brussels. I do not believe that these matters could be consolidated into one day. We do try to overcome the problem, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that our present procedure is totally unsatisfactory? Major matters go through the House late at night, often with insufficient consideration, sometimes the Committees have not examined them and sometimes we have to consider a matter with the wrong documents. The Leader of the House has criticised the various suggestions that have been made today. Is he seized of a sense of urgency? What does he propose?

In the time that I have been Leader of the House we have had three or four debates on the way in which we conduct this business. In most of those debates the House has agreed—whatever criticisms hon. Members might still have—that we have sought to meet the previous criticisms. I do not say that the present situation is satisfactory because I believe that it arises from the nature of the position itself and the difficulties that are inherent in it. We try to overcome them. We have not achieved a perfect solution, but I do not believe hat the proposal made by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) would be an improvement.

Should not the Lord President be more positive about an anxiety which unites both pro and anti Common Marketeers? The Leader of the House has skilfully avoided giving an answer to another variation of the solution—that we should use more frequently the Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments &c., allow it to consider intelligent motions, take the less important items upstairs and allow more time on the Floor of the House for the more important EEC items.

I am not sure that that is the best solution. The House insists upon debating some of these matters. Therefore, what the hon. Member proposes is that the House of Commons Committee should be transformed into the same type of Committee as the House of Lords Committee on these matters. I doubt whether the House would tolerate such a situation since this House has always been more insistent on its rights than the House of Lords.