asked the Secretary of State for Wales why tenders for the needed extensions at the County Hospital, Griffithstown have been delayed three times; and what action is being taken to expedite the commencement of the required building work.

The tenders were higher than we would have wished and it was necessary to examine the reasons for this very closely. Within the last few days my right hon. and learned Friend has been able to give his approval and the building work will start very shortly.

I thank my hon. Friend for his effective intervention, which I am sure will be much appreciated in Pontypool, where it is a matter of urgency that we have the new surgical units. Can my hon. Friend tell us the amount involved in these extensions to the hospital? May I also thank him for his intervention in education? This week Pontypool has certainly had a great deal to thank the Labour Government for.

I thank my hon. Friend. The total cost of the replacement operating theatre and the X-ray department will be nearly £1 million. My hon. Friend has campaigned for them for some years.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what he expects the cost of the elections to the Welsh Assembly will be.

The cost of the initial Assembly elections was estimated for the purposes of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum to the Wales Bill as broadly £0·7 million.

Would the cost of the elections be any different if they were conducted under proportional representation? Will the hon. Gentleman recommend to his colleagues that the amendment made in another place on that issue should be retained, because proportional representation is clearly a much fairer system of election than the first-past-the-post system?

As for the principle of proportional representation, an amendment has been passed in another place; but the Government and this House will be making their decision on all the amendments from another place very shortly. I have no figures for the relative costs of both systems. The hon. Gentleman must try to persuade the House in far stronger terms than those with which he tried on the last occasion.

In view of the comments made by some of his hon. Friends about the cost of the Assembly, will the Under-Secretary agree that £0·7 million is a very small price to pay for democratising government in Wales?

I certainly agree that £0·7 million is a small price to pay for the increase in democratic accountability, which is one of the main functions and purposes of the devolution Bill.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that the Goverment reject the proportional representation amendment, because we should not try in such a Bill to change our electoral system? On the question of cost, have the Government any view on whether aid should be given to the two organisations that may well be set up to campaign for or against the Assembly?

If aid were to be given to various organisations, legislation would be needed. There is no provision for it in the Bill. I take my hon. Friend's point, that the House has already expressed its view on proportional representation. We now have merely to consider our attitude to the amendment carried in another place.

Would not the hon. Gentleman agree, none the less, that proportional representation would ensure that there was a much fairer representation in the Assembly?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the number of people unemployed in the Cardiff area.

As I informed the hon. Member on 3rd April, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones) received a deputation led by the Lord Mayor last November, and my Department has continued to keep in close touch with the local authorities. Several correspondents have also referred to this matter.

Does the Secretary of State accept the view of the Cardiff Chamber of Commerce that the disastrous decline in industrial jobs in Cardiff would best be reversed by small, labour-intensive units? Does he consider that the hope of reward in the form of tax cuts is essential to attract the entrepreneurs, including recently compensated redundant steel workers, into new businesses to create jobs for Cardiff?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would be the first to welcome the enormous amount of money—£13 million—that the Government have made available to meet the results of the steel closures which have been accelerated. As regards tax cuts, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the last Budget, offered a great deal of assistance to small businesses. I am sure that that will have an effect.

Has my right hon. and learned Friend made an estimate of the additional numbers who would become unemployed in Cardiff and in Wales generally should the Tory Party's proposals for cuts in public expenditure be carried?

It is not possible to make such an estimate. As I understand it, there is a fierce argument going on inside the Shadow Cabinet between the axe-men and those who are likely to be axed. The public expenditure cuts for which the Tory Party is looking seem to range from £2,500 million to £4,000 million. In any of these contingencies Wales, which is so dependent on public expenditure, would undoubtedly suffer terribly if we had the misfortune of a Tory Government.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the grave imbalance in Cardiff between the service and manufacturing sectors in employment? Will he take account of the fact that there is agreement between the Labour and Conservative Parties over the need for the movement of the Ministry of Defence to Cardiff, which is in contrast to the attitude taken by Plaid Cymru?

I find it difficult to understand how anyone who cares for the future of Cardiff and who is aware of the need to provide more employment could oppose the decentralisation of Government Departments to Wales. We have a very good record in this respect with regard to Swansea, Cardiff and Newport. Both directly and indirectly, this proposal will prove to be a great help to the Cardiff area.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the unemployment figure in Mid-Wales is very high indeed—

Order. This Question is to do with the Cardiff area.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, by virtue of being the capital city of Wales, Cardiff has disproportionately more jobs in the Civil Service, in Government Departments and in the private sector than a city of similar size in the provinces of England? Will he therefore agree that, by creating more jobs, the Welsh Assembly will be for the benefit of the people of Cardiff?

We need to bring more jobs to Cardiff generally, whether by way of Government dispersal, by way of Government assistance to meet the cost of steel plant closures, by development of the surrounding areas of Llantrisant or by the siting of Ford at Bridgend, within 20 miles of the city of Cardiff. In all of these ways we must continue the drive to ensure that there is an improvement in the job potential of Cardiff.

The Secretary of State spoke of a bracket of £2,500 million to £4,000 million of possible public expenditure cuts. Since that was almost exactly the bracket which covered his own Government's public expenditure cuts, forced on them by the IMF, may I ask him to tell us what effect those cuts had on unemployment in Wales?

The unemployment figures in Wales are well known. If the hon. Gentleman will confirm that the activity now going on in the Shadow Cabinet means that it is trying to discover further public expenditure cuts, he should put a figure to this so that we know where we stand.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for (a) males, (b) females and (c) school leavers unemployed in Wales.

This June there were 60,633 men and 25,901 women, totalling 86,534 unemployed in Wales. These figures include 6,307 school leavers.

Now that the Government have agreed, after a great deal of vacillation, not to impose the 2½ per cent. increase in the employers' national insurance contribution, may I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to have a look at other deterrents to employment such as the Employment Protection Act? If he does not believe me when I say that that Act is a deterrent, may I ask him to consult employers?

The hon. Gentleman will have read some of the articles which have recently been written concerning the effect of the Employment Protection Act, showing that it has no significant effect upon the provision of jobs. I am sure that one of the greatest deterrents acting upon those who want to come to Wales is the fear that there may be a Tory Government who will want to impose cuts in the industrial assistance that we are giving and who will want to reduce the assistance that we are giving to job creation. People are also frightened that any chance of building the A55 in North Wales would disappear over the horizon if the Tory Party came into office.

I appreciate that the problem of unemployment among school leavers is serious, but may I ask whether my right hon. and learned Friend has been able to work out any estimate of how this figure would increase if the Conservative Party's public expenditure proposals were implemented?

That is not possible until the Tory Party manifesto sees the light of day and we know which side of the Shadow Cabinet has won. I want to know whether those who now occupy the Tory Front Bench are axemen or are liable to be axed. Then I would know what was likely to happen.

While appreciating the problems of Cardiff, Mr. Speaker, may I ask whether the Minister is aware of the number of school leavers in Mid-Wales and the corresponding unemployment figure? Is he satisfied that the financial resources of the Development Board for Rural Wales are great enough to ensure that it can stem depopulation and create jobs for young people in the future?

I am sure that the hon. Member welcomes the additional £700,000 which I announced last Wednesday for the Development Board for Rural Wales. It is up to the board to spend the money made available to it. If it were able to spend more, I would be most anxious to provide more money. Given the determination of the Manpower Services Commission and the resources provided to it and its area boards by the Government, I should like an indication from both sides of the House that the commission will be helped in its task of finding jobs or alternative occupations for young people this coming autumn.

Since the right hon. and learned Gentleman seems to be anxious about the possibility of trouble arising from cuts in public expenditure by a Tory Government, may I ask him to recollect that when taxation was severely cut by a former Conservative Chancellor—Mr. Butler as he then was—it was followed by a decade of unparalleled prosperity?

The hon. Gentleman knows how little progress was made with the country's economy in those 13 wasted years. Will the hon. Gentleman help me? Will he give me some assurance before election day, whenever it comes, about which areas of public expenditure will suffer in Wales?

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the numbers of people unemployed within the county of South Glamorgan and in the town of Barry, respectively; and if he will make a statement.

I have received several representations relating to unemployment in South Glamorgan but no separate representations about unemployment in Barry—save that the hon. Member has another Parliamentary Question down today.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that since the end of the last war the areas of South Glamorgan and the part around Barry have escaped the worst scourge of unemployment which has affected the valleys? Is he also aware that now, for the first time since the war, those areas are experiencing unemployment figures and problems comparable with the other areas? Will he take account of this fact when considering the allocation of grants and so on for Wales in the future?

Certainly. I am well aware of the problem, and the worsening of the problem, since the accelerated closure of East Moors. That is why I am sure the hon. Gentleman would be the first to welcome the additional moneys—£13 million—that have been made available for assisting the very areas with which he is concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken actively to promote widespread public discussion on the recommendations in the report "Dyfodol I'r laith Gymraeg—A Future for the Welsh Language"; if he will call regional conferences to discuss the recommendations; and if he will make a statement.

The report has been given wide publicity and follow-up comment in newspapers and on radio and television. Written statements from interested bodies and individuals will be welcomed by my Department. I do not think that another round of conferences would carry matters further. It could only duplicate much of the useful work already carried out by the Council for the Welsh Language.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate the desperate need for the establishment of the permanent body which was recommended by the Council for the Welsh Language in view of the critical position of the Welsh Language? In particular, will he ensure that there is a speedy start on the recommendations affecting publicity, education for children under five years of age, television programmes for children and the use of the fourth channel in Wales for showing mainly Welsh language programmes?

Having received the report of the council, I believe that it is right to await the reactions of a host of interested bodies throughout Wales. We should wait to see what people have to say. Broadcasting is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. He proposes to publish a White Paper on this. Dealing with aid for the Welsh language generally, I believe that this Government can hold their head high. Compared with a total of about £24,000 in 1973–74, this year—when we include the grant to the National Eisteddfod—we shall have gone over the £500,000 mark. This includes grants for Urdd Gobaith Cymru, the playgroups and also support for Welsh books. That is the significance of the support for the coming year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many acres of land have been bought by the Land Commission in Wales; how much has been sold to builders; and how many houses have been built on this land.

The land policy statement published by the Land Authority for Wales shows that the authority has acquired about 900 acres of land since it began trading in August 1976. Disposals to 31st March 1978 amounted to 227 acres, of which about 55 acres were for residential development. I understand that construction of dwellings has started on a number of sites and that completions have already been achieved on two; further details can be obtained from the Land Authority.

With even that miserable record looking good beside the pathetic record of the English equivalent, as the Department of the Environment is apparently so proud of its efficiency as the worst Government Department, will the hon. Gentleman tell it how to get on with its job, or abolish the Act and get rid of the Land Authority?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's use of the word "miserable" to describe the activities of the Land Authority for Wales. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to an article in the Financial Times last Friday which paid tribute to the work of the authority, indicated that it had exceeded both its targets for acquisition and its targets for disposals, and added that it was popular with the building industry.

For the sake of the record, I should point out that it is not in order to ask Ministers to pass messages to other Departments.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps have been taken during the past four years by his Department or by agencies responsible to him to provide employment in the advance factories which are standing empty in the Arfon and Dwyfor areas.

My Department and the Welsh Development Agency do all they can, through advertising and personal contact, to impress on industrialists the advantages of the North Wales special development area, and of the four advance factories in Arfon and Dwyfor which are at present standing empty.

But would not the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that these factories have been standing empty for far too long, and that those initiatives which have shown any enterprise in them have come mainly from local enterprises, county, borough and district councils and not from the Welsh Development Agency? In the circumstances, will be instruct the agency to attract industry to this area of high unemployment?

The hon. Gentleman knows that it is not within the power of the agency to direct industry. The hon. Gentleman referred to empty factories. One at Arfon and one at Dwyfor have been brought to the attention of 126 industrialists and have been visited by seven. One of the factories is subject to two applications, which are being considered. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased that the large adcance factory at Blaenau Ffestiniog and two units at Penrhyndeudraeth in Gwynedd have recently been allocated after a great deal of effort, going back, certainly as far as the Blaenau Ffestiniog factory is concerned, for many years.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend continue the policy of building advance factories prior to requirement, because sometimes incoming industrialists want factories immediately? Will he tell the WDA that that is a method of attracting a great deal of industry into Wales at a time of serious world recession?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. There has been an enormous increase in lettings. As I told the Welsh Grand Committee only last Wednesday, the rate is averaging about four a week. I will certainly continue the programme of building advance factories. More than 400 have been announced, and the programme will be continued because they are needed. The availability of advance factories is one of the most significant factors for industrialists when deciding whether to move to a certain area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on current progress towards arrangements for a referendum on devolution.

Under Sechedule 12 to the Wales Bill, a draft order making provision for the conoduct of the referendum must be laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House.

Since the Government, for reasons of electoral expediency, are now following the lead given, with totally misguided conviction, by Plaid Cymru, does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the voters who consider the scheme for an elected Welsh Assembly both expensive and impractical have no other recourse than to vote Conservative?

Anyone who gives advice to the people to vote Tory at the next election must want his head examined. On the question of an elected Assembly for Wales, I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Labour Party in Wales was on record, long before there was a Plaid Cymru Member of Parliament, as calling for a directly-elected Assembly because we saw it as an extension of democracy—a word not exactly popular with the Conservative Party.

Has the hon. Gentleman's Department or any other Department yet had discussions with the broadcasting authorities about their intensions in the coming devolution referendum? How is the balance of views to be controlled on programmes broadcast into Wales by Granada Television, Westward Television, and so on?

The question of equity in broadcasting is a matter for the broadcasting authorities themselves. I am sure that they will note the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question.

In order to dispel the view that the only way to prevent the Welsh Assembly is to vote Tory at the next election, may I ask my hon. Friend to make it clear that, by voting for very many Labour Members in Wales, not to mention some silent Ministers, the voters can be assured that there will be a vigorous fight in this House and in the referendum to ensure that, with Labour electors' support, there will be no Welsh bureaucratic Assembly?

I think that the proper body to decide whether there shall be an elected Assembly for Wales is not a few odd people on either side of the House but the people of Wales themselves, and this House will, I hope, give them the opportunity to do that through the referendum.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the future of the nominated bodies in Wales.

None in recent months, Sir.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is some confusion over whether, if the Assembly is created, the nominated bodies will cease to exist or will continue with the Assembly? Whether or not the people vote for an Assembly, the composition of these nominated bodies is causing some concern. There are accusations that these bodies are dominated by Labour or, on the other hand, that not sufficient Labour representatives are on them. Will my hon. Friend look into the question of how—irrespective of the Assembly—we can get the nominated bodies to be more representative of the people of Wales?

It was an essential part of the devolution proposals that we should make the nominated bodies more democratically accountable. It is also true to say that amendments have been made in another place which are having some impact on that intention. We shall have to take account of those amendments. It is true that reference is frequently made to the composition of nominated bodies in Wales. But when one is attacked on one side for doing too much of one thing and attacked on the other side for doing too much of another thing, perhaps sitting somewhere in the middle is as near comfort as is possible.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that we on this Bench believe that the question of making the nominated bodies accountable to the Welsh Assembly is one of the most attractive features of the Government's devolution policy?

I am glad to hear the hon. Gentleman say so. It was the composition of such bodies—I am not referring to the people personally—that produced these fears.

Recently in the Welsh Grand Committee, the Minister spoke of the desirability of keeping the Arts Council at arm's length from Government and avoiding any Government domination of the arts. Is he not therefore a little concerned by the revelation of Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge in another place that the arts in future may be in the hands of a Department of Culture?

Fortunately, I am not responsible for what is said in another place, hut, having heard the hon. Gentleman's criticisms of the composition of nominated bodies, I was fascinated to hear that the Tory Party is drawing up a "good and great" list of individuals sympathetic to the Tory cause who might serve on these nominated bodies.

Will the hon. Gentleman answer my question about the Arts Council, which he has not even referred to?

We had a long debate on the work of the Arts Council in Wales in the Welsh Grand Committee, when the hon. Gentleman implied that my right hon. and learned Friend was responsible for appointing Labour members as chairmen of panels. In fact, my right hon. and learned Friend is not responsible for appointing these chairmen.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is his impression that nomination to these so-called bodies has been one of the means over the years whereby the Tory Party has been able to exercise a certain control over the length and breadth of Wales, despite being repeatedly defeated at the polls?

I go further. I believe that it is far more than an impression it is a fact.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales which local authority areas in Wales he has selected for partnership or other special programmes of action following the publication of Command Paper No. 6845, "Policy for the Inner Cities".

I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. and learned Friend to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) on 19th May when he explained that he intends to designate five areas under the Inner Urban Areas Bill, should it be enacted. The five areas are Blaenau Gwent, Cardiff, Newport, Rhondda and Swansea.

I accept that information, but would not the Minister agree that the Welsh Office is not displaying the kind of coherent, concerted approach towards inner urban problems that is being displayed by the Department of the Environment in England?

No. What my right hon. and learned Friend has done in this case is to say that we accept that there are many communities in Wales which need special help under this sort of programme, but our aim in designating these five areas was to try to ensure that we could help those with the worst problems, both in scale and in intensity.

In view of the fact that the original Act brings in only £80 million over four years, can the Minister say how much money will actually be made available to the Cardiff area?

It is not possible to make that sort of statement at present, because we have already decided that we shall hold consultations with the local authority associations to see how the extra money which will be available next year for the urban aid programme can best be used to deal with the problems not only in Cardiff and the other four areas but in the whole of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will erect a sound barrier on the M4 motorway adjoining the Beechwood Estate, Newport, Gwent in order to prevent further noise nuisance and damage to property.

The need for a sound barrier and other noise insulation measures in connection with the widening of the M4 will be considered during the design phase of the scheme for widening the M4 motorway between Coldra and Malpas. Work on this scheme is not expected to start before 1980.

I agree with the widening of the M4, which is absolutely necessary to the development of the Welsh economy, but will my hon. Friend appreciate that the people of the Beechwood Estate have suffered very much and have been very modest in their demands? Will he therefore ensure that in the future development of the motorway the erection of the sound barrier which those residents are now requesting is carried through?

My hon. Friend has raised the question of the Beechwood Estate before. At present we have no powers to provide the insulation in respect of the road as it is at present. However, I shall look very carefully at the matter in the context of the future scheme.

Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that resources are not diverted from the top priority of improving the A55 in North Wales?

I can assure the House that the availability of funds in relation to the development of roads in Wales will ensure that there is a fair share for North Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, out of the total of 63,000 jobs that he told the Welsh Grand Committee had been provided in Wales by Government special measures over a period of years, what is the maximum that he estimates have been provided at any one time; and how many he calculates are being provided at the moment.

The best estimate available is that in June about 310,000 people in Great Britain were being assisted, out of a cumulative total of about 900,000 people since 1975. Assuming the same proportion in Wales, the equivalent figure is about 21,000.

Is not it misleading for the Secretary of State to talk of the 63,000 jobs that have been saved in Wales over a period of years when it is now clear that only a comparatively small fraction of the total is saved at any one particular moment? Would not it be more honest and informative to give the figures on exactly the same basis as those for unemployment, namely, those on the register as actually employed at any particular moment in time?

I do not think it is misleading at all. These figures arise because some schemes start at different dates. People come in through the temporary employment subsidy and then the schemes come to an end. We have given this estimate of the number of jobs that have been saved over a period. It is not helpful to use the word "dishonest". Perhaps the hon. Gentleman might consider axing whoever briefs him because, perhaps on a very good briefing from Conservative Central Office, he seeks to add the number of people unemployed in Wales to the 60,000 jobs that have been saved in order to indicate that there are 150,000 people in Wales without jobs.

Does not the Secretary of State accent that with 90,000 people unemployed in Wales it would be far better to use them to build houses which are needed for people on council house waiting lists, to improve the 107,000 houses which are unfit and to build the many miles of motorway which are needed in Wales rather than paying them about £80 a week on average, taking all the benefits together, for staying on the dole?

I would be the first to agree with the hon. Gentleman that one would have hoped that more houses would have been built in Wales in the last two years. Increased resources were made available over a two-year period—significant amounts of money were made available—but regrettably and unhappily those resources were not taken up. If they had been, they would have had an effect on unemployment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next expects to meet the Wales Trades Union Congress.

I met representatives of the Wales TUC last Wednesday.

When the Secretary of State next meets the Wales TUC, either as Secretary of State or as a party leader in Wales, will he work out with it how an extension of nationalisation and State control, according to the Labour Party programme, can actually save and create jobs in Wales as opposed to losing jobs, which it seems to have done over the last 20 years?

I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman has ever met the Wales TUC, But I can assure him that it is in the lead in making proposals both to save jobs and to ensure that there is a better balance of employment in Wales. I am most grateful to the Wales TUC for its co-operation—

It is a pity that the figures get worse and worse all the time.

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will contain himself. I am most grateful for the co-operation of the Wales TUC as well as that of employers' organisations.

Will the Secretary of State take this opportunity of assuring the Wales TUC, and those of us who will be attending the one-day conference on industrial-related diseases to be held by the Wales TUC at Llanberis next Friday, of the support of his Department for initiatives to establish a compensation fund for slate quarrying?

I have listened to the representations that have been made, and I am very concerned indeed, as is my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department of Employment. The Wales TUC is very concerned about these issues, as I am. It would bring enormous relief to the Wales TUC if it could be reassured that there would not be a Conservative Government and if hon. Members who are now on the Conservative Front Bench made it clear whether they were axemen with regard to public expenditure in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many children attend bilingual schools in Wales.

In January 1978, the 60 schools in Wales that are officially designated as bilingual had 15,640 pupils. These figures do not include schools in Welsh-speaking areas that are, to a greater or lesser extent, bilingual in character.

I am delighted that so many children in Wales attend bilingual schools. I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State will agree that it would be a wonderful achievement if all Welsh children were able to have bilingual education by the end of this century. What further plans has he to help local education authorities in the future?

I hope that I can please the hon. Gentleman by telling him that the number of pupils attending designated bilingual schools has risen by 87 per cent. since 1970. As to the future, we have asked local education authorities for detailed information about their present policies and practices as part of the wide-ranging curriculum review. When we receive that sort of information, my right hon. and learned Friend and I will want to consider what further guidance and advice we shall give to the local education authorities.

Will the Minister remind the Welsh local education authorities of the consensus that two-stream schools have not proved as successful as schools which are one community, particularly from the standpoint of the Welsh language? Wherever the Welsh language is used as a medium, will he press those authorities to do so through Welsh medium schools?

May I outline briefly but bluntly the policy as we see it? It is my right hon. and learned Friend's policy to encourage the local education authorities to make bilingual provision which is in keeping with the linguistic characteristics of their areas as well as having regard to parents' wishes. We do not bully the local education authorities. They have a fair amount of leeway to make up their own minds. However, the Department is not insensitive to the point of view which the hon. Gentleman has expressed.

Can the Minister say why only one local education authority has submitted a statement on its linguistic policy as requested by June this year?

These statements will be made quite soon.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he next expects to meet leaders of the Civil Service trade unions.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects next to meet the representatives of Civil Service trade unions.

I am in regular contact with representatives of the Civil Service unions.

Will the Minister discuss with the trade unions the question of who decides the so-called "first division" of the Civil Service—the top 3,000 or so? Is he aware that between 1971 and 1975 the number of applicants from Oxford and Cambridge was 25 per cent. of those applying, yet more than 50 per cent. were accepted? This is bound to be the case when there is a majority of full-time civil servants on the selection panel. Will the Minister tell the Prime Minister, who seems to be drawing up the Labour Party manifesto these days, that we want to see a greater degree of accountability and democracy in the selection of these top posts?

On the selection of entrants to the administrative trainee grade of the Civil Service, I accept my hon. Friend's general contention that there appears to be a statistical bias in favour of what I would call Oxbridge entrants. But the fact remains that, while not all of our most able people come from Oxford and Cambridge, the figures provided for the Expenditure Sub-Committee demonstrate that these universities still attract more than their share of able school leavers, measured by A-level grades obtained. I am satisfied that the Civil Service Commission operates in a wholly impartial manner in the selection process.

When my right hon. Friend next meets the Civil Service staff side and the Civil Service Union in particular, will he have further discussions on the subject of dispersal? This is causing a great deal of concern particularly among those civil servants who must uproot their homes to go to other parts of the country. Often they have teenage children and are moving to areas of high unemployment. Their movement there does not help to create employment. Will my right hon. Friend have more talks and ensure that people are able to volunteer whenever they can to take part in dispersal operations?

I am happy to meet any of the Civil Service unions on the question of dispersal. I understand the difficulties for individual civil servants in London and the South-East, but I assure my hon. Friend that it is hoped that Government policy will operate on a wholly voluntary service.

First, may I say that we are all very pleased that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has returned? He has a great deal of respect and affection on this side of the House. Does the Minister agree that a well-paid, fairly-treated and respected Civil Service with a high morale is vital to the economic revival of this country, particularly in the elimination of waste in public expenditure? Is he aware that many hon. Members on this side of the House share his concern about the maintenance and expansion of an efficient and high-morale Civil Service?

I am very grateful for the hon. Member's comments. I share his views about the wholly regrettable absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). However, my hon. Friend is here so often that I did not notice that he had been away.

Without offence to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), I want to second what has been said by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Rhodes James).

When my right hon. Friend meets the Civil Service trade union leaders, will he allay the fears aroused by the Leader of the Opposition that a future Conservative Government would be prepared to restrict Civil Service and public service wages but to leave the private sector alone? Although this is an academic proposal, I still hope that my right hon. Friend will allay their fears.

I feel that the Leader of the Opposition made a monumental gaffe in her Penistone speech when she outlined the Tory Party's approach to pay policy and suggested that the Civil Service, the nationalised industries and the public sector generally should be restrained by strict cash limits. That policy would involve double standards and discrimination against 6 million workers.

In his discussions with the relevant trade union leaders, has the Minister given thought to the question whether Civil Service inflation-proof pensions should be funded? These pensions form an increasingly important part of the total remuneration of civil servants. Is it not an anomaly that they are not funded for civil servants but are funded for local authorities' and nationalised industries' employees?

I do not wholly accept that it is anomaly as such. It is true that Civil Service pensions are not funded, but I do not think that that is an anomaly.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service by how many the Civil Service has increased or decreased since February 1974.

Although there were 38,000 more Civil Service staff in post on 1st April this year than on 1st March 1974, the nearest available dates, decisions taken by the Government to contain the size and cost of the Civil Service have caused a reduction in Civil Service numbers of nearly 12,000 since April 1976. This represents a saving of some £65 million, which has been achieved despite increasing workloads in some Departments caused by changes in taxation and unemployment levels.

The Minister has announced an increase of 38,000 civil servants. Will he accept my congratulations for ensuring that the Government have shielded their own employees from the hardship of unemployment which has hit the rest of the community? It will be noted that the Government's ability to increase the number of their employees is in line with their ability to increase unemployment, inflation, taxation, food prices and a whole host of other items. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us what benefit the taxpayers can expect from an additional 38,000 civil servants?

I believe that the hon. Member prepared that supplementary question without listening to my answer. I indicated that since 1976 we have achieved a reduction of 12,000 civil servants and a financial saving of £65 million.

Does that fact not only nail the lie that the Civil Service complement is constantly increasing but make clear to the House and the country that any increase in the number of civil servants follows actions taken by this House in passing legislation and calling upon Government Departments to carry out responsibilities that hon. Members want to be carried out? Those who criticise any increase in the number of civil servants should do something about it here instead of constantly asking for more Government support.

My hon. Friend is right. The size of the Civil Service is determined by the tasks imposed upon it by decisions of this House.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he will make a statement about the Government's policy towards a closed shop in the Civil Service.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he has made any progress in his discussions with Civil Service trade unions about the provision of closed shop agreements.

Discussions have taken place with both the industrial and non-industrial unions which have asked for union membership agreements. Proposals have been put on behalf of Ministers and there have been full and frank exchanges of views. The discussions are continuing, however, and I would not wish to prejudice their outcome by commenting on their content at this stage.

Will the Minister accept that the introduction of closed shop agreements in the Civil Service would be deeply offensive to the people of this country? Will he confirm from the Dispatch Box that the Government are opposed in principle to the imposition of a closed shop in the Civil Service?

I am aware of the strength of feeling not only in this House but in the country generally on the question of union membership agreements. If we can continue the discussions with the unions, which are proceeding in a spirit of reasonableness and moderation, we can arrive at something.

Will the Minister accept that, although many of us think that this is a matter that should be agreed by discussion and negotiation, there are, nevertheless, very strong feelings about this issue among the Civil Service trade unions? Will he pay close attention to the debates that took place at recent conferences and to the resolutions carried to ensure that the full views of the union members, who work so hard for better conditions, improved pay and better contracts in the Civil Service, are listened to by the Government?

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he will make a statement on progress with arrangements to hold a referendum on the proposals to create an Assembly in Wales.

I have nothing to add to the reply given earlier to the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales.

Has my right hon. Friend considered the allocation of financial resources to those who will be campaigning for and against the Assembly, or are no funds to be made available? If that is the case, will he consider contacting the broadcasting media, the BBC and the IBA to ensure that there is fair play for both sides in the run-up campaign to the referendum?

The Government have already made clear, both in this House and in another place, that they have no intention of providing subventions to campaign organisations on either side of the referendum question. Indeed, legislation would be required for that purpose, and no amendments have been moved either in this House or in another place.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is not only necessary for the Government to avoid supporting outside bodies, but that it is essential for the Government not to spend taxpayers' money supporting one side in a highly controversial campaign? Will he assure the House that the Government do not intend to use their resources and taxpayers' money in support of the "Yes" campaign, and that they will accept that it is right that there should be legislation making clear that that cannot be done?

On the latter point, I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman is anticipating matters which may be engaging the attention of the House at a later stage. Perhaps it will be better for the House to listen to the arguments then. The Government have made it quite clear that they will campaign for a "Yes" vote in the referendum, because that is the policy of the Government and it is the policy in our manifesto on which we were elected. We have made it equally clear that we will not provide money to either side of the campaign.

asked the Lord President of the Council if he has any further proposals for amending the rules governing the Register of Members' Interests.

I think that in the first instance the House would look to the Select Committee on Members' Interests for further proposals.

That answer is unacceptable. Will my right hon. Friend accept that the Government have failed in their manifesto commitment to have a genuine Register of Members' Interests until he takes action to meet the case of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell)? Until we have legislation on this matter, does he not agree that we shall not get local authorities to follow the lead that was supposed to be set by this House?

I do not accept that we have gone back on our manifesto commitment, because the register is still compiled. There was a recommendation from the Select Committee on the subject, which I do not regard as a sensible way to deal with the matter. However, that does not alter the fact that the register is still being compiled.

But, as the Lord President has said that he does not regard this as a sensible way to deal with the matter, does he after this long interval propose to give the House time to consider the matter and the report of the Select Committee?

Of course there is a case for the House to consider the matter, but the House has had a number of other more pressing matters to discuss. The principle of the register has been accepted by the House and the register is sustained. I believe that that is the most important aspect of the matter. But at some stage no doubt there will be some further discussion in the House on the subject.

In considering the time that would need to be allocated to this issue, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it would take only a relatively short time, since almost every Member of the House, with the exception of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell), has agreed to the principle of the register? Therefore, the matter will be almost unanimous and could be disposed of in a few hours.

I do not think my hon. Friend is correct in that matter because the recommendation of the Committee on the subject raises quite different issues involving how the matter should be dealt with. I do not believe that it could be disposed of in the way my hon. Friend suggests. I do not think it right that the House should dispose of an issue involving censure of a Member in that way.

In view of all the other pressing commitments which the Government and the House have before them, will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to waste not one second more time on such an utterly trivial matter?

asked the Lord President of the Council what consultations were held before a decision was taken that Badge Messengers of the House should wear new summer uniforms.

My office was consulted before the decision was taken.

If the Lord President thinks that an Eton jacket is a suitable working uniform for a grown man, will he tell us when we may have the pleasure of seeing him turn up here in one himself? In the meantime, will he confirm that, if the Badge Messengers have strong views on the matter, it is open to them to make representations to the effect that the uniform should be withdrawn?

The Badge Messengers can make any representations they wish. The matter was only proceeded with because the Serjeant at Arms had consultations with them and with Mr. Speaker. As for the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, I think that the House will treat it with the derision it deserves.

asked the Lord President of the Council what representations he has received regarding machinery of government.

I cannot recall receiving such formal representations but, like many Members, I am often made aware of people's views on how we should be governed.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that the machinery of government would work much better if the House of Lords were abolished, if we got rid of the Honours List, if we removed a lot of the patronage from the Prime Minister and other Cabinet Ministers, including my right hon. Friend the Lord President, and if we took away some of the power that is now being used by top civil servants? Has he taken account of the references made by Lord Armstrong on the miners' dispute in 1973–74 when Lord Armstrong seemingly advised the then Tory Prime Minister on the date of the General Election, and also of the recent remarks by Sir Antony Part at the Department of Industry? Bearing those matters in mind, does my right hon. Friend think that it is high time that they were removed from the political arena?

I agree with my hon. Friend in some of his earlier comments. I, too, have always been in favour of the abolition of the House of Lords, and I remain in favour of that proposition. There are some other aspects of the matters mentioned by my hon. Friend which are of first-class public importance, but I do not think they can be dealt with by question and answer now. I have also read the comments made by Lord Armstrong in the broadcast to which my hon. Friend referred. They were remarkable utter- ances, but again I do not think they can be dealt with by question and answer now.

May I ask the Lord President whether his brothers agree with his point of view about the House of Lords?

Will my right hon. Friend give more attention than the Brewers Society might give to the Band of Hope to the views of Lord Scarman and Lord Wilberforce that the right hon. Gentleman's Scotland Bill will not be workable in the absence of a constitutional court?

There are other Lords who took a very different view from those cited by my hon. Friend. The House, according to its normal procedure, will be taking account of the amendments passed in the Lords. Some of those amendments should be accepted by the House and it would be wise for us to accept them, but many of the others should be treated in the manner referred to in the earlier part of the question. I seem to recall that my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) may have taken his quotation from somewhere.