asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Northern Ireland trade unions.

Northern Ireland Ministers are in constant touch with representatives of the trade unions in Northern Ireland in the course of our ministerial duties and departmental responsibilities. In the past 12 months, we have had more than 50 meetings with trade unions and trade union leaders. I also spoke at the economic conference organised by the Northern Ireland committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on 8th March 1978.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply, and, of course, I accept that in his day-to-day work as a Minister he is in constant touch with the trade unions on matters affecting himself and the trade unions. But does he not agree that sectarianism is probably at its lowest level at the point of production and, therefore, that workers, through their trade unions, could play a more positive role in Northern Ireland in seeking the solutions which right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House seek? Does he not agree, further, that opportunity should be taken to develop the role of the trade unions in Northern Ireland?

My hon. Friend is quite right. The Northern Ireland committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is playing an important part in crossing the sectarian divide in the Province. None of the trade unions has a sectarian base. They do not involve themselves in sectarianism in Northern Ireland. Neither do they become involved in the political wrangles in Northern Ireland. As such, they are a credit to the Province, and we have a good working relationship with them.

Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the widespread discontent amongst many full-time trade union officials in Northern Ireland about the fact that, although some of their members are appointed to statutory boards—indeed, one has been appointed to no fewer than 20 statutory boards—many other trade unionists never receive any appointment? What is the reason for this discrimination which gives £3,000 to £4,000 a year to a select few trade unionists?

For nominations to these special boards the trade unions themselves are approached, and they make their nominations. But I must remind the hon. Member that at least 40 trade union leaders in Northern Ireland are serving the Province in various other professional and semi-professional capacities.

As the trade unions are such a credit to Northern Ireland, why has my right hon. Friend so far resisted the request made by them, especially by Terry Carlin, the Northern Ireland officer of the ICTU, to have the Quigley report debated and its conclusions confirmed or rejected by this House?

My hon. Friend will recognise that the new economic concept for Northern Ireland has moved on from the Quigley report. Using that as a base, the Economic Council, with its fair share of trade union representation, is dealing with it now on a more forward-looking plane. The trade unions themselves are playing a positive part in that role.

When the Secretary of State met the trade unions, did they raise the issue of the high cost of electricity and gas in the Province? If so, will the right hon. Gentleman endeavour as soon as possible to reduce the cost, especially that of gas, which is three times that in any other part of the United Kingdom?

Yes. The Economic Council has been working on that. It has prepared a paper on the future of energy requirements in the Province, and gas is one of the topics that is touched upon.

Is the Secretary of State aware that we on the Opposition Benches yield to no one in our admiration of the trade unions and trade unionists in Northern Ireland for the part they have played in maintaining production and industrial harmony through years of terror and difficulty?

I am obliged to the hon. Member. He is quite correct. In spite of the troubles, the trade unions, allied with the management of industry, have managed to achieve a higher manufacturing output, higher productivity and a better industrial relations record than Great Britain as a whole. That is in spite of seven years of trouble.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Question on the Order Paper in my name—No. 17—is identical to Question No. 1.

I noticed that. That is why I did not call the hon. Member. His Question will be reached.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what consideration he has given to the length of sentences currently provided for serious criminal offences in Northern Ireland: and if he will make a statement.

The length of sentences in particular cases is for the courts to decide within whatever maxima are laid down in the relevant statutes. However, criminal legislation in Northern Ireland is kept under constant review and as recently as last year Parliament approved substantial increases in penalties for offences provided under both the ordinary criminal law and emergency provisions legislation.

Since it is clear that the terrorists have not responded to the very generous remission of sentences that the Minister introduced a couple of years ago, will he now consider returning to the formal level of remission of sentences so that there is no possibility of criminals in Northern Ireland being treated as a group apart?

As the hon. Member knows, there was no probation service in Northern Ireland. As the House passed this provision three years ago, it is up to the House to look at it and put forward any amendment to it. If people keep their noses clean in prison, it will still have an effect. Those who do not do so—and there are quite a number who do not—lose out. Up to now, they have lost nearly 300 years of remission. That should please the hon. Member.

I refer to the report of the advisory council on the penal system. Will the Minister confirm that, whatever the Government's eventual decision on this report, they will not apply it to the terrorists or those who commit related crimes in Northern Ireland and elsewhere?

I have read the report all the way through. I think that it has been misunderstood to some extent. On the point that the hon. Member has raised, the advisory council has made it absolutely clear that offenders who pose the risk of serious harm should be liable to a penalty in excess of the normal maximum. Clearly this would have implications for the people the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. We could increase the length of sentence, even to life imprisonment.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the level of industrial investment in Northern Ireland.

I cannot he satisfied with the level of investment while unemployment in the Province remains so high. None the less, there has been a good response to the greatly enhanced incentives which my right hon. Friend announced last August, and the recent decision by General Motors to set up a £16 million seat-belt factory in Northern Ireland is particularly encouraging. The provisional figure for jobs promoted in the first half of 1978 in companies new to the Province is 1,200, compared with a half-yearly average of 225 between 1972 and 1977, and vigorous efforts will continue to be made to publicise Northern Ireland's considerable advantages as a location for new investment.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that Government expenditure in Northern Ireland is now running at a level of over £1,000 a year for every man, woman and child in the Province? That makes a total of nearly £1,000 million a year. Has he any intention of studying the impact on health, housing, jobs and education in Northern Ireland should the policies of the Leader of the Opposition be carried out and public expenditure be cut throughout the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland?

I can confirm that the capital expenditure per head of population in Northern Ireland is just over £1,000. In fact, last year it was £1,122 per head. Expenditure for the other regions was £754 per head in England in 1976–77, £875 per head in Wales and £948 per head in Scotland. I sometimes wish that this Government would get some credit for this.

The whole House will applaud what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the efforts of the Government to increase investment in Northern Ireland. Is he aware that investors need a clearer picture of the overall industrial policy of the Government for Northern Ireland? Is there a general economic plan? I refer here to the Secretary of State's words about the Quigley report, which was mentioned recently by Sir Charles Carter, chairman of the Economic Council. Will the Minister say what the plan is, and will he say whether the Government intend to continue with several job creation agencies or whether they intend to co-ordinate them?

The whole time that I have been in this Department I have been acting upon the Quigley report. It would be very strange if I did not, because the head of my Department is Dr. Quigley himself. The special agencies in Northern Ireland are tailored to fit the situation in the Province, and I see no reason why we should change them. These agencies are doing a good job in their relative fields, and I do not want to disturb them.

In our discussions about Northern Ireland, is it not very important to remember that there are enormous economic possibilities for development there? Apart from the present investment, is not the forecast investment per capita higher than in England, Scotland or Wales?

Yes, that is correct. I am expecting investment to be even higher this year. The subvention from the rest of Great Britain to Northern Ireland was £314 million in 1973–74. In 1977–78, if one includes the one-off payment to the electricity service of £250 million, that subvention will have reached £950 million.

Is there not a case to be made for a single corporation to co-ordinate industrial development and ensure that that development goes into areas of particularly high unemployment?

There is a single agency, and that is my Department, with the Secretary of State and myself as Minister working on this. We have agencies working for us. We give high incentives to industry to locate in the areas of high unemployment. However, I stress that in my travels around the world I have found that there are certain areas which, no matter how much I talk or how much money I offer for them, are their own worst enemies. Until they improve their image, there is very little that one can do.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now agree to a deputation of hon. Members going to Northern Ireland to visit the prisons there, including H block, in the light of recent events.

Since the beginning of the year, 12 hon. Members have made general interest visits to Her Majesty's Prison, Maze. Such visits, however, inevitably create a certain tension in the prisons and place a considerable burden on prison staff. In the present circumstances of an intensified protest over the special category issue at Her Majesty's Prison, Maze, I have concluded that there should be no further general interest visits by hon. Members for the time being. I hope that it will be possible to allow a resumption of these after a period of calm. Visits to constituents will, of course, be unaffected.

I find that reply as disappointing as the one I received when I asked the same Question some weeks ago. Does not the Minister feel that, if a deputation of MPs was allowed to go, it would help to allay disquiet in many quarters about the situation in the Maze? Does not this kind of answer give the impression that we have something to hide? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the situation in Northern Ireland and the problems there can be solved only by a political answer and not by force of arms or violence from any quarter?

I wish that my hon. Friend would at times accord me the same generosity when I tell her things as she seems to accord to just about everyone else. What is happening in these prisons has been brought on by the inmates themselves. They are deliberately fouling and messing up one of the best prisons in Europe. If I announced that a deputation of Members was going to visit Her Majesty's Prison, Maze, I would certainly find that there was an intensification of the efforts of the people inside. Hon. Members must understand that their efforts are aimed at securing special category status. This House has on more than one occasion stated quite clearly that it wishes to see the ending of the special category. I am doing all I can to pursue this aim, and I wish that everyone in this House would back me to the hilt.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it is impossible to integrate children in schools in Northern Ireland? Is he also aware that even the Minister responsible for housing in Northern Ireland is talking about keeping Protestants and Catholics apart by putting them in separate factories'? Does he not agree that we should at present segregate Protestant and Catholic prisoners, some of whom have been sentenced for the foulest crimes? Will he also tell us how many Protestants are taking part in the prison protests at present?

First, when looking for jobs in the Province I certainly do not look for Protestant or Catholic jobs. I am looking for jobs for the Province as a whole and at where one can put them for the Province as a whole. There is nothing in the suggestion of job segregation, because after the legislation of last year it would be illegal anyway. As regards how many Protestants are envisaged to be involved in the present protests in the Maze, though I do not like to use the words "Protestant" or "Catholic" with regard to prisoners, as the hon. Gentleman has asked me a straight question I will give him a straight answer. The answer is "No."

Does the Minister recognise, however, that the Question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard) was not about the possibility of what the Minister called a general interest visit but about the possibility of what I consider would more accurately be called a specific interest visit to this prison?

The reason why this situation has arisen in that prison is that it is a straight protest by those concerned because they wish to have special category status given to these prisoners. This House, two and a half years ago, said that this had to end, and there was general agreement to that effect in this House. I am trying to end this situation, and it is working. If hon. Members want to help those people, I can assure them that if they intend to press for a visit to Her Majesty's prison now, they will be adding succour and help to those who are involved. These prisoners are doing some terrible things, such as fouling their own cells, which I find disgusting. The only thing I impress upon hon. Members is that the prisoners' own actions are keeping them in prison that much longer. They have lost nearly 300 years of remission of sentence. When I consider some of the heinous crimes that some of these people have committed, I am not sorry that we are keeping them in prison a little longer.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that many of us on the Opposition Benches are full of admiration for the prison officers in Northern Ireland and the excellent way in which they are doing a very difficult job at the moment? Does he further recognise that many of us also feel that at this particular time a visit by Members of Parliament—bearing in mind the composition of such a party—could indeed do much more harm than good?

I thank the hon. Member for seeing it in that way, because that is exactly my position at this moment. However, constituency Members and Members who represent prisoners will not be affected. I believe that most of the hon. Members have visited the prisons fairly recently.

Will my right hon. Friend accept from me that he is unduly touchy about this particular question in the way that he imputed a wrong motive to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Miss Maynard)? Does he further accept from me that there is not unanimity in this House, no matter how much the United Ulster Unionists cheer him every time he speaks? Finally, does he accept from me that, in the light of the Amnesty International report, if he does not allow Members of Parliament from this House to visit that gaol there will be a feeling among the members of the general public that we have something to hide, and that we should be doing the democratic cause justice by allowing Members of Parliament to go and look at that prison?

I completely refute just about everything my hon. Friend has said.

I know that my right hon. Friend will do that.

I do not know what the Amnesty International report has to do with the Northern Ireland prison service at this moment in time. Anyone who has visited this prison in normal circumstances will know full well that it is a new prison and one of the best in Europe with the best facilities. What is happening is due to only a certain minority—and it is a minority; just two of the H blocks out of eight. If my hon. Friend wishes to exacerbate the trouble that I already have in these prisons, he should carry on with what he is doing, because these people will hinge on every word that is said in this House today and will escalate their protests, thereby making the job of settling these prisoners down and ending the special categories that much more difficult.

Does the Minister agree that the presence of such a deputation would, in fact, play into the hands of the terrorist propaganda machine and that it would inhibit very severely the efforts of himself, the prison authorities and all who are engaged in the welfare of the prisoners from restoring normal discipline to the prison, including the abolition of the special category?

I think that the hon. Gentleman, along with other Members, paid a visit to the prisons not so long ago, and I thank him for those remarks. I believe he understands the situation and the propaganda value that such a visit would have at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to have further talks with the various political groupings in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement about the talks between his Department and representatives of political parties.

As I told the House on 30th June, I have periodic meetings with local political leaders to exchange views on security policy and on economic problems, as well as to discuss possible constitutional advances.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the appalling tragedy of the death of the young boy on Tuesday and the soldier killed by a bomb yesterday are clear indications that these senseless killings will go on until we get a political settlement based on equal human rights? I urge the Minister—because the initiative can come only from him—to do whatever he can to bring about political talks. That is the only way that there is any glimmer of a settlement in this terrible situation.

I agree with my hon. Friend. If he follows matters in the Province closely, he will know that I have laid before the political parties in Northern Ireland a five-point plan which indicates how best we can move towards devolved administration based on the principles laid down by this House. That is, that it should be based on partnership and participation. I have taken the initiative and laid the proposals before the political parties. I can only hope that they will now seize upon those proposals, even if it necessitates changing them according to how they would like to see the Province evolve with its regional tier of administration. It is not a hard and fast blueprint that I have laid before them.

Whatever the truth of the report in The Guardian that a proposal before the national executive committee of the Labour Party for an upper tier of local government had been suppressed, are not the Government and the Opposition now agreed in supporting the enlargement of the responsibilities of local government which, indeed, is a feature of some of our current Northern Ireland legislation? Is not the best line of advance in the sphere of local government?

It depends on one's definition of local government. If it is British-style local government being imposed upon the Province of Northern Ireland based on majority rule, I fear that the minority in the Province would reject that sort of approach. Indeed, they might even make sure that it did not work. Therefore, one has to be careful about the definition. If one feels that filling the Macrory gap between district councils and Westminster is a form of local government based on the principles of partner- ship and participation, that sort of regional authority is worth examining.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all political groups in the Province which enjoy any substantial electoral support are represented in this House and are, therefore, at all times available for consultation?

I suppose that the right hon. Gentleman is placing himself as one of the leaders of one of the parties and he himself would like to have the consultations here as distinct from in the Province. But I try to keep his party as well as the other Ulster parties aware and abreast of my thinking on the future of the Province.

Taking up the statement of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that he has had discussions with Northern Ireland political parties on the question of security, may I ask him to make it quite clear to the House that in the discussions with, at least, the SDLP, that party has had no say in security? If it was having discussions on security, it would completely disagree with some aspects of security, particularly that which is contained in the yellow card instructions at present. Is my right hon. Friend aware—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long.")—that regulation no. 2 on that card states:

"Never use more force than the minimum necessary to enable you to carry out your duties, and always try to handle the security position by other means rather than using firearms"?

Order. I hope that it will be possible for the hon. Member to raise that matter under another Question. This is a Question relating to the political groupings in Northern Ireland.

I was taking up my right hon. Friend on the question of the security discussions that he has had, Mr. Speaker. I am asking him to make it quite clear that the SDLP does not agree with the yellow card instructions, and it certainly disagrees with the way that these have been interpreted by certain members of the security forces.

I am sorry to hear what my hon. Friend says. His question relates more directly to security than to political groupings. However, the yellow card really holds back any member of the security forces from being either impulsive or too hasty in his action—

It did not do so on Tuesday.

but on occasions when a person has a bomb in his hand, or an Armalite rifle, the yellow card will still allow the security forces to shoot. We know that a number have already been killed or seriously maimed because they hesitated for too long.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is satisfied that there is adequate use of public inquiry in connection with departmental decisions on planning applications involving the general public interest in a neighbourhood.

Yes, Sir.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it will be greatly advantageous if he errs in the direction of holding more rather than fewer public inquiries, whether they are on large schemes such as the Kinnahalla dam or smaller planning matters such as caravan sites, since this method brings public opinion into play and gives all the impression that they have been consulted?

I could not necessarily accept everything that the right hon. Gentleman has said. It is normally the case that we would try to resolve disputes about planning applications without resorting to the lengthy and costly business of a public inquiry. But it certainly is our intention to consult, and in the last case that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned—the caravan site in his constituency—we consulted, just about everyone, including the local authority, before coming to a decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to improve the community's participation in the policing and administration of the Province.

We are anxious to give locally elected representatives extensive responsibilities for the administration of the Province. That is the purpose of the five-point plan. In the meantime, we shall continue to involve the people of Northern Ireland as far as possible through the various arrangements for consultation that have been developed and extended over the past few years. As regards policing, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State seeks to ensure that the membership of the Police Authority is, so far as practicable, representative of the whole community.

Does not the Minister agree that one of the weakest parts of the Government's policy in Northern Ireland has been the creation of any cross-community co-operation? Have the Government any initiatives in this direction? Has there been any increased recruiting from the minority community into the security forces, the police and the UDR?

On the last question, I really could not give clear indications, although there are some suggestions that there are increased numbers of recruits from the minority community. However, as the hon. Gentleman will know, no records are kept on the basis of the first application, so it is hard to give the answer that he seeks.

What hope does the Minister have of persuading members of the SDLP to participate more fully in the work of local security committees?

The same as I would have of persuading the Conservative Party not to keep on asking the same question, to which they know the answer.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it will be difficult to persuade the SDLP or any other responsible party in Northern Ireland to participate in policing Northern Ireland through the agency of the Police Authority when two very distinguished persons have resigned from that body on the ground that they were kept in the dark and that the Minister ran it in the way he wanted to run it and did not want their views?

I can understand my hon. Friend's anxiety, but he is not quite informing the House of the facts. Those two people have given notice that they intend to withdraw. These matters are now being considered. It would be wrong of me to pre-empt what answers will come from the consultations and considerations. But it is also true that it is very difficult for those in my hon. Friend's circumstances to persuade people of his own political party to join in endeavours towards security when there is so much reluctance, and there are difficulties which have to be overcome. But we are trying as hard as we possibly can to dissipate that fear and anxiety. We hope that we have my hon. Friend's help in this matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many schools in the secondary sector are integrated; and what proportion of the secondary school population this represents.

It is known that several schools are attended by pupils of both the main religious denominations, but the Department of Education for Northern Ireland does not collect statistics of the numbers of pupils enrolled at schools according to their religious denominations. No schools have yet applied for controlled integrated status under the Education (Northern Ireland) Act 1978, but it is really too early to expect this to have happened. The Department of Education only recently issued a circular to schools, school authorities and other interested bodies drawing attention to the Act's provisions.

Until there is an increase in integrated schools, will the Minister seek to encourage the pupils of sectarian schools to join together in certain academic classes, as is the case in neighbouring schools in this country? Will he bear in mind that, until there are integrated schools, there is little hope of ending the ghetto development in the communities?

We shall certainly not attempt any artificial integration, in the academic levels or elsewhere. This is an education matter and it has nothing to do with questions of sectarianism or integration. On the general question of integration, we have made it quite clear as a Government, and my noble Friend has made it quite clear, that this is a matter for the community itself to decide.

Is not the whole miserable business of segregated education in Northern Ireland about the best argument that one could ever produce for the total abolition of religious education?

Does the Minister agree that segregated education tends to make people live in separate areas, and that this is not good enough for the community spirit?

That is so obviously true that I do not really know how I can reply to it.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what consideration he is giving to the special protection of the occupants of both marked and unmarked police vehicles in Northern Ireland.

I know that the protection of occupants of police vehicles from terrorist attack is very much in the minds of the Chief Constable and Police Authority. Steel-protected Land Rovers continue to come into service and protection is available for other vehicles as appropriate. The hon. Member will understand, however, that it would not be in the interests of security to go into details.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that, so far as is possible, patrolling is of a haphazard nature and not to any conformed routine? Also, what consideration has been given to introducing new, very lightweight armoured-type materials, which have been pioneered very successfully for, for instance, the Chieftain tank in Britain?

On the first question, I would not pretend to intervene on operational day-to-day requirements. They are a matter for the Chief Constable. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, if the Chief Constable wishes such provision to be made and that equipment should be purchased manufactured from the materials that the hon. Gentleman brings to the attention of the House, we shall await his request.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

Since I answered a similar Question on 15th June, the general level of violence has remained relatively low. Terrorist attacks continue, however, particularly against members of the security forces. The murder yesterday of Private Fisher brings to 19 the number of security force personnel killed this year. In the same period last year there were 30 such deaths.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most people in Northern Ireland appreciate the progress made by the security forces? Is he also aware that people feel that a hard core of terrorism is not being adequately tackled? Many people, such as Martin Meehan, have been called in for questioning, but the questioning never seems to lead anywhere. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a growing campaign to denigrate the work of the security forces? I hope he will bear in mind the enormous difficulties and dangers under which the security forces operate, and that when allegations are made he will bear in mind that security forces have shown remarkable restraint in operating in the most difficult circumstances.

I very much appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman says. As somebody who has had some responsibility in the Province and who lives there, the right hon. Gentleman's words are to be respected. It is right that we must continually use the process of the law in Northern Ireland so that when we make an arrest the charge sticks and the matter is processed through a court of law. Secondly, it is true that there is a constant campaign of denigration against the security forces in Northern Ireland. We must we aware of it—and that includes awareness by this House in particular.

Will the Secretary of State consider proscribing the Provisional Sinn Fein—that group of people who masquerade behind a political label hut who have no policies on housing, education or any other genuine political matter? Will he proscribe that organisation at the earliest possible moment if the numbers of deaths are to be reduced?

I have not in mind proscribing PSF, the political wing of the Provisional IRA. I always bear in mind that if the Provisional IRA wants to prove whether it has any political backing or any following in the community in Northern Ireland, its members will have the opportunity to do so by letting PSF stand in the elections, local or Westminster. The way to prove that is through the ballot box. Let us see what strength that movement possesses.

Is not my right hon. Friend already aware of all the circumstances relating to the tragic death of John Boyle? Does he agree that this incident has created a deep sense of outrage throughout the whole community in Northern Ireland? In any subsequent inquiry, will the RUC have any power in interpreting the written instructions on a yellow card, or will they continue to be interpreted with such tragic effects as we have already experienced?

The principles have been laid down by this House and not by the RUC. I was personally saddened at the death of this young man. However, a full RUC investigation is taking place. This is the normal course when there is an incident of this kind. There will be a public inquest.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent representations he has received about the Government's proposals for the future structure of secondary education in the Province; and if he will make a statement.

The Government continue to receive representations both from those who support the decision to eliminate selection by perceived ability at 11-plus and from those who are opposed to that decision. The most recent representation received, from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance, representing 27,000 members in Northern Ireland, urged the Government to proceed with the introduction of comprehensive education as quickly as possible.

Does the Minister agree that under the present law he has no statutory power to impose comprehensive education in Northern Ireland? Will he undertake that there will be no such imposition, save with the full-hearted consent of the parents and teachers concerned?

We are moving on a voluntary basis. It is clear that 27,000 teachers in Northern Ireland are very much in favour of these proposals, as are many other sections of the community in Northern Ireland.

Is the Minister aware that on several occasions we have asked about the cost if all secondary education in Northern Ireland were turned over to the comprehensive system? What is the estimate of that cost?

We have not worked the figure out because we are proceeding on the basis of agreement. If we can proceed on that footing, obviously the cost will be considerably reduced compared with the cost if we were to proceed in another way.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 13th July.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

If my right hon. Friend finds a moment to polish up his first draft of the manifesto, will he turn his mind to the problem of the provision of official information to the public? Given the fact that neither the Leader of the Opposition nor her new-found bridegroom from Sidcup has ever taken this problem seriously, to the extent of not even revealing Conservative policies, will my right hon. Friend say what his policy is? Will he publish the serious study as announced in The Times by the Minister who is responsible for the Civil Service, on which doubt has been cast in a letter to that journal today?

Yes, Sir. There will be published within the next 10 days or fortnight the Government's views in a White Paper on official secrets and the reform of section 2, which was the original cause of the setting up of the Franks Committee.

When the Prime Minister goes to Bonn, will he ask the leaders of the other countries present at the summit how their Governments have done so much better than the Labour Government of the United Kingdom in the past four years in the same world conditions and without the benefit of North Sea oil? How does he explain that the Labour Government are either bottom of the league or next to the bottom in the matter of jobs, prices, output and growth?

I am always ready to learn from anybody in these matters and to try to improve the position in this country. I am sorry that the right hon. Lady feels it necessary to denigrate the efforts of this country when there has been so much improvement in the past four years in so many of the factors to which she has referred. Although we should all be ready to learn lessons from each other, I wish that now and again she would try to speak up and say a good word for Britain.

The Prime Minister has not got the point. I was criticising Britain's Government. Will he explain how in the same world conditions, and with the benefit of North Sea oil, the Labour Government have done so much worse than have the Governments of the other countries who will be present at the Bonn summit?

In the first place, the right hon. Lady is not accurate. Secondly, we took over from an Administration who left us with a three-day working week, the worst industrial confrontation in this country since the early part of the twentieth century, a vast balance of payments deficit which we have now put right, and an ascending retail price index, which is now falling. We have remedied all these things. The right hon. Lady was a member of the previous Administration and a little humility from her would not go amiss.

All the information that I have used has come from Written Answers in Hansard either this month or last. What is inaccurate about the figures?

I shall be glad to look into them all, but I have had occasion before to remark on the way in which the Opposition twist the use of statistics.

When my right hon. Friend is looking at the draft election manifesto, will he make sure that it includes a strong section on the arts and that the undertakings given in earlier manifestos are repeated and will be carried out by the Government that he will head after the next general election?

I am not sure what my hon. Friend is talking about in relation to manifestos.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13th July.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price).

As it is clear that the Labour Government intend to proceed with the closure of the Glengarnock steelworks and to postpone indefinitely the Hunterston steelworks, will the Prime Minister have a word with the Secretary of State for Scotland and tell him that it is not, as the Secretary of State has suggested, the SNP which is misleading the people of Scotland over the future of their jobs, but the Secretary of State himself and the Labour Government? Will the Prime Minister therefore dismiss the Secretary of State for Scotland immediately?

The hon. Gentleman might put these questions to the Secretary of State for Scotland if he wishes detailed replies to them.

You are the boss.

Yes, but in this House and this country there is a doctrine of ministerial responsibility. When the House decides to elect me as life president, I shall assume all the responsibilities—but not until then. I understand that the major investment at Ravenscraig and the ore terminal and direct reduction plants at Hunterston are to be completed, so I do not know where the hon. Gentleman gets his information.

Has the Prime Minister noticed that the chairman of the Scottish Life Offices Association has seen fit to issue a public warning to his policyholders about the dangers of the SNP policy to have a pound Scots and a pound sterling? Will my right Eon. Friend investigate other areas to allow people to understand just what SNP policies are all about?

I should be very glad to learn more about SNP policies, because it seems that the more the Scottish people learn about them, the less is the support for the SNP.

If the Prime Minister is spending any time today in preparation for the meeting in Bonn, will he resolve not to enter into any scheme, whether proposed at Bremen, Bonn or anywhere else beginning with "B", which involves the principle of fixed exchange rates, which over the past 30 years has done more harm than any other single factor to the economy and morale of this country?

I have no intention of entering into any commitments, and nor would one be asked to do so at Bonn, as the right hon. Gentleman knows. There is a great intellectual discussion between the right hon. Gentleman and many others who are similarly profound on the question whether fixed exchange rates have been a problem. I have no doubt that a zone of stability is to be preferred to much of the speculative consequences that flow from the present system. If we could get something between the two, I should be very happy.

When publishing the White Paper on open government to which he referred earlier, will my right hon. Friend bear in mind his Government's manifesto commitment to introduce a freedom of information Act which will place on public authorities the onus of proving why information should be withheld from the public?

I have borne that in mind very much and I regret that we cannot come to that conclusion at this time, so the White Paper will contain certain reasons why we shall not be introducing such a Bill.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 13th July.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave earlier today to my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price).

As it is possible that the Prime Minister's attention may turn sometime today to the question of pay policy, will he take into account what many people in Scotland regard as a gross distortion of pay scales, namely, the provision of London weighting, which is now running at about £9 per week, and suggest either the abandonment of this gross favouritism to people working in London or the introduction of a similar weighting allowance for people in areas of high costs, such as Scotland, to bring a sense of equity and fair dealing into pay negotiations?

I am aware that the problem of London weighting has often caused a great deal of disagreement throughout many parts of the United Kingdom—not only in Scotland—but it is not an issue for the Government to settle. It is a matter for negotiation.

If the Prime Minister, during the course of his engagements today, happens to see the Foreign Secretary, will he congratulate him on the arrangement which has been made in Namibia between the five western Powers and SWAPO and other sections and urge the Foreign Secretary not to brook any interference in the transition to a democratic and peaceful community in Namibia?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because I believe that the work that has been done by the five Powers in negotiating with South Africa and with SWAPO may be of very great benefit to the people of South-West Africa. It looks as though the five Powers can go to the Security Council to ask for the appointment of a United Nations administrator to effect a peaceful settlement in this territory. That would be of great significance and importance, not only in itself but perhaps for the effects it would have on the prospects of a settlement in Rhodesia as well.

In the light of what the Prime Minister said earlier about ministerial responsibility, may I ask whether he has planned to use any part of his day to call in his right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Overseas Development to try to get agreement on whether the Government are or are not in favour of taking over the 500 top companies in Great Britain?

I do not propose to do that today. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am sorry that Conservative Members are a little deaf. I said that I do not propose to do that today.

asked the Prime Minister when he last met the heads of nationalised industries.

I do not see the heads of nationalised industries collectively, but I meet them individually from time to time, as necessary.

Will my right hon. Friend consider having talks with his noble Friend Lord Beswick, chairman of British Aerospace, because there are problems that need to be ironed out about the future production programme of British Aerospace? Many of us on this side of the House welcome the go-ahead for the HS146, but, as the Prime Minister well knows, decisions have to be made about our future collaborative programme with Europe or the Americans and talks with Lord Beswick would certainly help this decision along.

I can assure my hon. Friend that the Secretary of State for Industry is in close touch with Lord Beswick on these issues. I welcome the debate that my hon. Friend initiated on Monday. I read it with very great interest and thought that there was a great deal of expert information contained in it which was of help to the Government. We shall reach conclusions on these matters, but negotiations are going on with both European and American aircraft companies.

Does the Prime Minister's statement made earlier this afternoon that the prices index is going down apply to the products of nationalised industries, or is that statement about to be repudiated, like his earlier assurance to me that the cost of living index would never rise again into double figures?

The hon. Gentleman is misleading once more. He forgets the coda with which I ended—namely, provided that we stick with our existing policies. Why does he not quote me in full if he quotes me at all? As for the retail price index, perhaps the hon. Gentleman will wait until tomorrow to see what figure is published. We shall then know whether the rate of inflation is moving up or down. I have a feeling that, contrary to the national interest but in accordance with their normal prejudices, Opposition Members will be disappointed to find that the rate of inflation is still going down. Whether we can continue to keep it at that level depends upon following the policies that we have enunciated, which I am now struggling to do without any help from the hon. Gentleman.