asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the number of terrorist incidents recorded each month during 1978 at Bess-brook, Forkhill, Crossmaglen and New-tonhamilton Royal Ulster Constabulary stations.

A total of 46 incidents has been recorded. I shall, with permission, publish the details in the Official Report.

Does the Secretary of State recognise that the violence in South Armagh presents a very serious situation, and that the statistics he has given us today include the deaths of 10 innocent people, soldiers, UDR men, policemen and civilians? Will he have another look at the action which his right hon Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) took in 1976 to combat the growth of terrorism in South Armagh and perhaps reintroduce those measures?

I suppose that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the operations of the SAS. As he well knows, the SAS is now operating Province-wide, and I can assure him that it is not neglecting his constituency. Though there have been 46 incidents—every one of which is one too many—in his area this year, that represents a big improvement on the whole of 1977.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many incidents of a terrorist nature occurred in Northern Ireland during the month of November 1978.

There was a total of 260 terrorist incidents in November, compared with 245 in the same month last year. These figures cover shootings, bombings, incendiary attacks, hijackings and armed robberies.

Is the Secretary of State aware that this increase in the month of November indicates that the IRA is trying to raise the level of violence? Is he aware that it is vital that the IRA does not succeed in its objective of provoking a reaction from other sections of the community? Will he give an assurance that the security forces will not be driven back to fencing in the law-abiding town centres and will he say what further measures were introduced in November to contain the threat and reassure the populace?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman recognises that the local commanders in the towns of Northern Ireland work with the local security committees. Local politicians, members of the local populace, business men and traders are on those local security committees, and they themselves in spite of the bombing attacks by the Provisional IRA in recent weeks, have taken the decision not to erect the barriers and not to allow the PIRA to defeat them.

We recognise that the Secretary of State had to postpone yesterday's visit to London by the Irish Foreign Minister, but will he take urgent steps to resuscitate that arrangement, and will he call the attention of the Irish Government to the fact that supplies, money and explosives are drifting up to the North from the South? Moreover, will he ask the Minister to correct the wrong impression which was given recently in the Dail, where statements were made to the effect that there would be dead prisoners in the Maze before Christmas?

Yes, Sir. I am not aware that there will be dead prisoners in the Maze before Christmas. The situation there is well in hand. The prison officers are doing a remarkably good job, and they are cleaning and disinfecting all those cells every three weeks. They are not allowing that situation to get out of hand.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what new plans are being put forward to encourage home ownership in Northern Ireland.

A number of measures have already been taken to encourage home ownership in Northern Ireland. Other measures at present under active consideration include the sale of Housing Executive dwellings to sitting tenants in areas where housing need has been met, and the need for official action to secure the provision of sites for private house building. Moreover, when a current study of the factors governing the level of house prices in Northern Ireland is complete, I intend considering what further measures, if any, might be taken.

But is the Minister aware that the shortage of home loans in the Province has almost reached crisis proportions? Further, does he appreciate that, by restricting lending to what are virtually substandard dwellings, the Housing Executive has placed a large part of the housing market out of the reach of the buyer?

I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman clearly does not know enough about private home ownership in Northern Ireland. The truth is that we probably have the best arrangement with the building societies of any region in the United Kingdom, and the Executive certainly places no undue limit currently on the question of loans to those who wish to buy their own property.

I appreciate the contribution which the Housing Executive's home loans scheme makes to the possibility of house purchase in the Province, but will the Minister accept that the home loans department of the Executive takes an inordinately long time to process applications, thereby occasioning payments on bridging loans by the applicants?

I am not aware of that, but if the hon. Gentleman has examples that he can forward to me I shall take the matter up. The Housing Executive is bearing a rather unfair share of the burden of providing loans to people who wish to buy their homes in Northern Ireland. Undoubtedly, its organisation is overstrained, but by and large I think that it copes.

Will my hon. Friend accept the congratulations of the House on the initiative which his Department has shown in bringing forward the home purchase scheme? Does not part of the problem of housing in Northern Ireland relate to the outdated and outmoded practices in the private rented sector, and can my hon. Friend indicate what is the prospective house building outturn for the coming year?

In both private and public sectors we shall not achieve quite what we wanted to achieve this year, for a variety of reasons. However, in the private sector we have probably the most imaginative and wide-ranging programme to stimulate private sector acquisition of any region of the United Kingdom. Some hon. Members—the hon. Member for Bexleyheath (Mr. Townsend) in particular—ought to be made aware of that, and I shall write to the hon. Member giving full details of the measures we are taking in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether there is any further progress to report on the Belfast areas of need programme.

There has been significant progress. The Government recently announced a £1 million community development project for a 10-acre site in the Shankill area of West Belfast. On the industrial front, the first two neighbourhood business units are expected to be operational early in the new year. These units are specially designed to accommodate small businesses in areas affected by redevelopment.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply but, although I acknowledge that progress has been made, I should be glad to know whether the views of the ordinary man in the street have been sought in deciding the priorities. Further, have all the schemes come forward from public enterprise or has private enterprise come forward with any proposals?

On the last point, sadly, the vast majority—if not all—of the money which has been disbursed on these projects has been public money. We should like to see private money coming in and playing a part in the whole enterprise of revitalising the inner part of Belfast.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he intends to take a further political initiative regarding the powers of local government in the Province.

I have no plans substantially to increase the powers of the existing district councils; nor do I think that it would be right to establish in Northern Ireland a system of local government similar to that in England and Wales or Scotland. But I want to see the powers that were once exercised by county and county borough councils once more in the hands of elected representatives in a system of devolved government acceptable to both parts of the community. That is what my talks with the political parties will be about.

Is not the present situation very unsatisfactory except as a temporary measure, and should not the right hon. Gentleman, now that he is taking correct action over parliamentary representation, look again at this matter since there really ought not to be differences within the United Kingdom in this matter?

I hope that the major political parties in Northern Ireland will hear what the hon. Gentleman has said. My job is to try to get the four major political parties in particular to start thinking seriously about methods of devolution in Northern Ireland. In the past few weeks, I have met representatives of six political parties, including the four major political parties, and they are now prepared to think seriously about methods of devolved government. I hope that we can make some progress.

Does my right hon. Friend believe that extensions of local government powers are compatible with the continuation of direct rule, which, if public opinion polls are to be believed, enjoys the popular support of both the majority and minority populations?

The latest survey indicates that the majority of the majority and minority population are content with direct rule, although, of course, most of them would like to see Ulstermen governing Ulster. As a matter of fact that would be the best solution. I am working towards it. But I hope that the political parties will co-operate.

Is not the real point that regional services should be restored to Northern Ireland people as soon as possible, and, since little progress is being made at present in the Secretary of State's talks, will he now consider ways of improving direct rule in the short term other than those which he has devised so far? Has the right hon. Gentleman come to a decision on the suggestion which I made in the House on 9th November, that he should invite Sir Patrick Macrory to devise a scheme for a regional council?

I do not want to disappoint the hon. Gentleman again with regard to his suggestion on the Macrory intervention, but I think that it is premature. I say that on the basis that, as I said a moment ago, I have now met six of the political parties in Northern Ireland, including the four major political parties—the Official Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Alliance Party and the Social Democratic and Labour Party. All four of them have now indicated that they are prepared to return and talk about forms and methods of devolution in the Province. I should like to go through that round of talks before I take on board the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

May I ask the Secretary of State a further question? If that second round of talks is not successful, will he then consider inviting Sir Patrick to devise a scheme?

I would not give an assurance at this stage, but I would not close my mind to it.

Is it true that my right hon. Friend has recently had discussions with Official Unionist Party Members in the House on the question of a return of local government power to local authorities in Northern Ireland? Is he aware of the speech made by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) at Warren-point last weekend in which he indicated to his audience, in his usual nudge-nudge, wink-wink fashion, that he had had discussions and that it would be a very short time before local authority powers were returned to local authorities in Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend say whether that is true?

I am sorry, but I am not responsible for press speculation, and neither am I responsible—God forbid—for the utterances of the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell)—

The right hon. Gentleman would be very lucky if he were.

—on every subject on which he pontificates. But I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman himself will inform my hon. Friend whether he has discussed with me a stepping stone towards a return of local government power.

Would the Secretary of State be willing to tell the House of all the discussions which take place between him and his hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), or does he think that discussions which take place between hon. Members outside the Chamber are not a subject for discussion on the Floor?

I entirely agree with the latter point, and it would be an incredibly lengthy job for me to disclose to the House all the discussions that I have with my hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on his recent visit to the United States of America.

The main purpose of my visit was to attend a luncheon organised by Business Week magazine to mark the publication of its special supplement on Northern Ireland in its edition of 23rd October. This was consequently a most valuable opportunity to present Northern Ireland's case to senior executives of substantial American corporations interested in overseas American corporations interested in overseas investment, and also to hold detailed discussions with a number of firms which are currently planning specific investment projects

:Is the Secretary of State able to give some indication of the extent of additional investment by American companies already in Northern Ireland? Second, can he give an estimate of investment expected by undertakings not yet operating in Northern Ireland?

There has certainly been a quickening of interest in the Province among American companies. I pay tribute to the work of my right hon. Friend the Minister of State in his investment drive in Western Europe and in America. I have also been in America and Japan on the same campaign. This year, 29 American firms have visited Northern Ireland for the first time, compared with two over the whole of last year. Five new American companies have come into Northern Ireland for first time. They are investing £180 million in Northern Ireland and they will generate 3,500 jobs. That is the measure of the success that we are having for those companies which come, see for themselves, cross the threshold of disbelief, and then, on their own hard-headed business criteria, decide to invest in the Province.

Is the Secretary of State aware that we welcome the hard work that he and the Minister of State have done to stimulate future interest by American companies in the possibility of viable enterprise in Northern Ireland? Will he take urgent action to counter IRA propaganda among American businessmen, particularly about the disgusting protest that has been made?

Yes. I indicated to the House yesterday how we were countering that. Our ambassador in Washington has been aiding us in that campaign. I hope that the hon. Member and the House will recognise that we have managed to counteract that propaganda, because we can prove how many potential investors have come to the Province. We sponsor their visits and encourage them to come to see for themselves. Once they are there and see that the Province is returning to normality, there is a chance of investment.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the expected date of the production of the De Lorean car.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has introduced for scrutinising progress on the De Lorean car project and expenditure in it.

I understand that the De Lorean Motor Company expects to begin car production early in 1980.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that I entirely understand and. applaud the aim of providing more jobs in West Belfast? Does he also accept that. the £55 million expenditure causes a certain amount of anxiety? Does he agree that the only real way in which there can be adequate scrutiny of that amount of money is by full public ownership which does not depend upon such a private enterprise venture? Is the Secretary of State satisfied that the marketing and technical expertise is adequate for when De Lorean enters into a contract with Lotus cars? Is he satisfied that the safeguards will ensure that the De Lorean venture does not become like that of other wonder cars which have been somewhat oversold—such as the Doble, Tucker and Brickhill cars?

I am satisfied with the project and the effort that has been put into it. The project will provide 2,000 jobs in one of the most depressed areas. I should have thought that the House would be satisfied that we are doing something about that situation.

The Minister of State seemed to imply that directors could be appointed. Are they to be appointed by the Northern Ireland Development Agency? May we have an assurance that they will be more than a channel of communication between the Department of Commerce and the company and that they will have powers, including the power to veto expenditure, if they are worried about the way in which the project is developing?

We have the power to appoint two directors. They have already attended their first meeting. One of then) is a Northern Ireland Development Agency accountant and the other is a senior executive of NIDA. I am satisfied that they will be looking after the interests of NIDA.

Does the Minister accept that there are thousands of unemployed people in West Belfast, of all religions and all political persuasions, who are looking forward anxiously to the beginning of production in this car factory? This is an area which many people believe has been deliberately isolated over many years. Does he agree that there seems to be a tendency in certain quarters to knock this project? I am not talking of my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer). Will the Minister bear in mind that those who knock this project have for years requested the Government to invest finance which runs into millions, to keep the Belfast shipyard afloat?

I am surprised about the knocking, but I am pleased that it has not come from the Opposition Front Bench. In one debate the Opposition thanked us for getting on with the job. I make no apology for taking account of the imperative need to promote jobs in that area. It is one of the worst unemployment black spots, not only in Northern Ireland but in the whole United Kingdom.

Order. Questions and answers are beginning to get longer again.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many bombs have been defused by the security services and how many explosions have occurred in Northern Ireland since 9th November 1978; and how many exploded or were defused in the four-week period prior to that date.

In the four weeks from 12th October to 9th November, there were 35 explosions, and five devices were neutralised in Northern Ireland. Since then 80 explosions have been recorded and 19 devices neutralised.

I am grateful for that reply. In view of his assertion on 9th November, which was confirmed a week later by the Under-Secretary of State, that the security forces had the provisional IRA beaten, does the Secretary of State agree that it would be inadvisable if there were over-reaction by the security forces in response to the new outburst of violence? Does he agree that the emphasis should be political, economic and social?

My hon. Friend is obviously a headliner-reader. We have never used the words"the Provisional IRA are beaten." We have never used the word"victory ". We always talk about"making progress"in Northern Ireland. We have been making progress in the defeat of terrorism in the Province.

Since hope of success sustains the Provisional IRA, and since there is reason to believe that the outrages which are the subject of this Question were for the encouragement of the continued filthy tactics in H block, is the right hon. Member aware that we accept his assurance that there will be no yielding and no amnesty? We offer our sympathy and respect to the Northern Ireland prison service.

I can assure the House that there will be no return to special category status and that the Maze protestors will not be recognised. Hon. Members can rest assured—and I hope that the Opposition reaffirm this—that there will be no amnesty for those prisoners.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is satisfied that enough is done to provide emergency help when people are bombed or driven out of their homes by anti-Government forces.

Yes, Sir. Officials of various Government Departments, public agencies and voluntary organisations act speedily to provide emergency help when people in any part of Northern Ireland have to vacate their homes through bombings or other terrorist activities. This help takes the form of immediate shelter, meals, transport, hardship payments and other special needs as well as first aid repairs to homes or the transfer of families to emergency housing. Operations are closely co-ordinated and every effort is made to give immediate assistance.

I thank my hon. Friend for that comprehensive reply. Does he realise the extent of the shock to those who are the victims of terrorism? Is he confident that the available services are satisfactory, particularly when it comes to handing out cash to people who have lost everything?

My hon. Friend is right. We probably all underestimate the shock and disturbance that a bombing causes to any family. However, our emergency services make every effort to restore a home or family to normality as quickly as possible. It is a credit to all the organisations involved that we have never had any serious criticism of any of the emergency services that we provide.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the bombers do not stop at 5 o'clock on Friday afternoons and that the availability of the emergency services is not all that it might be at weekends? Secondly, does he accept that the extent of emergency repairs is often such as to render poorer people of the community out of pocket because of the new de minimis level in the order, which imposes a limit on compensation for criminal damage?

I am prepared to consider the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. During my time in Northern Ireland it has not appeared to me that anybody has suffered economically as a consequence of bomb damage. As the hon. Gentleman says, the bombers do not stop at midnight. Neither do the emergency services. The Housing Executive, all the voluntary organisations, the RUC and everybody else involved operate a 24-hour service.

And all Ministers.

Did the Minister see the"Man Alive"programme earlier this week on the Royal Victoria hospital, Belfast? Is he aware of the admiration that the programme invoked in all those who saw it for the selfless work of those in that hospital who look after the victims of terrorism?

As the programme pointed out, the hospital is at the forefront in the techniques that it employs and leads the whole of the Western world and probably the whole of the medical world. The House and everybody in Northern Ireland are indebted to the work of the surgeons, the medical staff and everybody working within the precincts of the hospital.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the present and future prospects of Harland and Wolff.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, whether any progress has been made in obtaining orders for Harland and Wolff.

Harland and Wolff Limited has secured orders for three new ships—a bulk carrier and two ferries—so far this year. This means that the yard currently has eight ships on its order book, for delivery between the beginning of 1979 and the end of 1980.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the importance of Harland and Wolff to the economy of Northern Ireland in terms of the people employed within the company and the many industries that service the yard? Is he satisfied that sufficient steps are being taken to make the yard competitive in the difficult circumstances that prevail? If so, what does it mean in terms of the labour force to be employed?

As I have said, much depends on whether we are fortunate with new orders, bearing in mind the depressed state of the industry. The size of the work force will continue to adjust to those factors. Progress will be steady and controlled on the basis of full consultations and understanding among all concerned. Much will depend upon the relative performance of the shipyard and success in securing new orders and so maintaining a full work load.

I understand the problems of the shipbuilding recession throughout the world, but is my right hon. Friend satisfied that his efforts to encourage diversification are proving successful?

We have had some success in diversification at Harland and Wolff and the company is seeking work in new areas. One such new area is the signed agreement that we have with MAN of West Germany for the manufacturing in Belfast of medium-speed diesel engines. We have also taken orders for offshore oil-related work. We have attempted to enter the structural steel work sector. A range of motor and cycle accessories is already being produced. These diversifications make a valuable contribution to the company's work load, but I do not think that they will ever provide a complete solution to the problems caused by the world shipbuilding depression.

Arising from the right hon. Gentleman's answer about diversification, will he indicate how many jobs have been preserved as a result of the progress in diversification? We welcome the new orders, but will he tell the House why no defence contracts have been awarded to Harland and Wolff? Will he approach his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence about that?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we have followed up the lack of defence contracts. However, there are not many defence contracts going around any of the shipyards. That is one of the problems. The agreement that we have with MAN will safeguard about 400 jobs in the engine workshops with the construction of the medium-speed diesel engines. I think that the hon. Gentleman will know that the engine works are suffering from a serious shortage of orders. I have to say that the number of people employed in that sector is bound to decrease.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what talks he has had regarding policy in regard to future use of natural gas in Northern Ireland.

I have had talks with representatives of the Northern Ireland Gas Employers Board, the Association of Local Authorities of Northern Ireland, the General and Municipal Workers' Union, the Belfast city council gas department employees, the Northern Ireland coal trade and several community groups.

When does my right hon. Friend expect to be able to make a statement? Before he makes his statement, will he bear in mind that the cost of taking natural gas to Northern Ireland would run into many millions of pounds and that by the time the installations were completed it might be that the natural gas would be nearing depletion? Will he bear all these matters in mind?

I hope to put the Government's proposals to the House early in the new year. I cannot commit myself to an exact date now. All the relevant factors, including the factor to which my hon. Friend has drawn my attention, must be considered thoroughly.

Should it not be made clear that in the long term there is no conflict between the supply of natural gas in Northern Ireland and the consumption of coal in the Province, and that these are essentially distinct markets?

During my meetings with various bodies it has been pointed out to me that there is a surplus of energy in Northern Ireland and that anything that we do to help bring forward one source of energy will be only to the detriment of one or more of the other sources.

As the right hon. Gentleman said in July 1977 that this issue would receive his attention, will he try to make a statement before the early part of next year? The matter is vital. The possibility of establishing a gas link between the mainland and Northern Ireland is extremely important.

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have put some hard work into the project. As I have said, there is a surplus of energy in Northern Ireland. We are subsidising to the tune of £250 million one of the other sources of energy. When I started on this venture I had in mind a time scale of three months. However, every move that I made seemed to bring me up against another brick wall. I hope to announce our proposals to the House in early January.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Energy Commission within the EEC has recently discussed the problem and has indicated its willingness to provide substantial funds for the erection of the gas pipeline, whether that be from existing sources or from the newly developed Morecambe field, which I understand is to be opened up quite soon?

As I have said, the problem in Northern Ireland is the cost of energy and what will happen to certain sources of energy if we introduce another subsidised source of energy.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he has any statement to make on the supply of and distribution of cement in the Province.

I met representatives of Blue Circle Ltd. on 28th November and expressed my concern at the recent acute shortage of cement in Northern Ireland and at the delay in implementing plans for new plant to cover longer term needs. As a result, the company is studying both problems urgently and is currently discussing its proposals for their solution with the interested parties. I am glad to be able to tell the House that production is now back to normal.

Is it not unsatisfactory that the supply of cement in the Province should be entirely dependent upon a single company? Should not the provision of a second independent source of cement in the Province be considered when we realise that the construction industry and other industries are constantly vulnerable to interruption as long as the supply is in monopoly hands?

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that this is a step forward. The Government have not closed any option for the future. However, we thought that this would be the best way forward in the short term. I think that, with this committee meeting possibly in two weeks, we should give it the opportunity to do the job.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the Labour Party, in its document on construction for the future in Britain, clearly laid down that there should be some measure of public ownership in the industry in order that there should be genuine competition in which the State would be involved?

That option also is not closed permanently. I answer as I answered the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell)—namely, that in the short-term we feel that this is the best way forward. I hope that all will recognise that this is new and imaginative. We have the trade unions and the employers in the construction industry sitting down together, and we hope that we shall be able to make some progress.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what were the recruiting figures for the Royal Ulster Constabulary in each of the last three years and to date in 1978.

During the last three years, the numbers of recruits joining the regular RUC were as follows:

The figures are obviously encouraging, but does the Minister feel that enough is being done to recruit into the RUC? Will he now seek to set up a committee of inquiry to try to find out why there is an extraordinary reluctance on the part of the Catholic community to join the RUC?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the situation is very encouraging. It was perhaps unfortunate that his speech last night followed the winding-up speech, because, I too, would have been interested in the reply. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will take note of the remarks that the hon. Gentleman made last night, and will be replying.

Does my hon. Friend agree that these bald figures cloak a situation which is due to the Government not publicising the numbers of Catholics recruited, and therefore give no real indication whether the minority community has any respect for the RUC? Therefore, is it not absolutely relevant and necessary for us to know whether the minority community has any confidence in and is joining that force? Can we not somehow get at the numbers? I support the request of the hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) for some kind of inquiry to reveal the numbers.

As my hon. Friend knows, it is difficult to arrive at numbers, because religion is not asked about on the application form. However, it is certain that the RUC is gaining more support. I am confident that it has the support of most people in Northern Ireland.

If the Minister believes that lack of leadership in the Catholic community is deterring young Catholics from joining the RUC, may I ask what specific proposals he has to get leaders in that community to encourage their members to join the force?

I feel that it is up to those leaders, not me.

We would all like more Roman Catholics to join the RUC and hope that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) will encourage them, always subject to getting the best men and women irrespective of religion. However, is it not a matter of satisfaction to the House that a number of Roman Catholics are now making their mark in the modern RUC at high and key levels in the force?

I believe that to be so.

Will my hon. Friend tell the House who has responsibility under the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act for knowing whether the RUC is actually conforming with the terms of that Act with respect to recruitment?

I do not believe that there is a quota system. I should need to look into this matter before replying to my hon. Friend.

asked the Prime Minister when he last met the heads of nationalised industries.

I met some of the heads of the nationalised industries at a meeting of the National Economic Development Council yesterday. Any further meetings will be arranged as necessary.

Has my right hon. Friend discussed with the heads of nationalised industries the effect on jobs of micro-technology? What further steps has he in mind to deal with the social implications of this revolutionary change to ensure that we do not have greater divisions between those who have the privilege to work and those who have not?

At the NEDC meeting yesterday, at which we discussed this matter, two heads of nationalised industries were present and joined in the discussion. I have this afternoon answered a Question tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Shaw) on this matter and have put in the Library copies of the CPRS report together with my statement and the report by Mr. Eric Hammond, the chairman of the electronic sector working party. The Government wish to see here a programme of information and of carrying this into industry through training. We have set aside f100 million to achieve that aim.

Assuming that the Prime Minister wants Parliament properly to carry out its constitutional function of examining public expenditure, may I ask whether he shares the concern of the Public Accounts Committee that, as things stand at present, it cannot adequately examine the accounts of the National Enterprise Board or the British National Oil Corporation? Will he therefore agree to the Committee's demand that it should be allowed to look into the accounts of both those bodies?

I understand that there was a debate on this matter on Monday in which the Government's view on the issue was expressed. I shall, of course, look at it again in the light of—

The Government did not express any view.

That is often the case with Governments. I shall look into the matter, if the right hon. Lady asks me to do so, to see whether there is any prospect of any change.

I should like to press this question a little more strongly. The trouble is that there was no reply and there is no good reason for refusing admission to the accounts if Parliament is to carry out its function properly.

I note the right hon. Lady's view. The matter can be looked at to see whether there is any justification for what she said. However, I do not think that I should be asked to take a final decision in the light of a supplementary question.

Further to my right hon. Friend's answer on microelectronics, does he accept the conclusion in the CPRS report that the fears about employment and unemployment have been greatly exaggerated and that the situation will be far worse if we do not get into this area now?

There was rather a division of opinion on this matter at the NEDC meeting yesterday. I think that it was generally agreed that none of us could forecast the impact on unemployment. Some thought that the CPRS was too optimistic in its assessment of employment prospects. What was generally agreed among us was that, unless Britain remains in the forefront of all these new technologies, and if they are adopted by other countries, we are bound to fall behind. Therefore, it is the task of Government and both sides of industry to adapt to the social changes which will be required when we introduce these technologies.

asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 7th December.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I am holding meetings with both the Prime Minister of Egypt and the Prime Minister of Canada. They will, of course, be separate meetings. This evening I shall be host at a dinner in honour of Mr. Trudeau.

Did the Prime Minister notice today's strong farm workers' lobby in Whitehall? Will he put on his"Farmer Jim"hat and consider their justified pay claim? Perhaps he will stop theorising about the subject as an employer and recommend to the powers that be that he will meet his part of the bill, and to hell with sanctions.

I do not know whether my hon. Friend knows the details of the farming situation. I should be very happy indeed to introduce him to some of the considerations. Perhaps I can inform him now that what the wages council does is to fix minimum wages—the actual wages are settled by negotiation on each farm.

Will the Prime Minister now tell the House what he proposes in regard to a further inquiry and action on the Bingham report and on the question of the Beira patrol?

I think that I am entitled to say that contacts are being continued between the Front Benches. The Government have their own clear view about what course should be followed. The Lord President will be very happy to continue those discussions to see whether we can get agreement.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that a majority of Labour Members and people in the country were delighted with his statement on the European monetary system yesterday? Does not he consider that the question of currency stability needs to be discussed in a much wider international framework, particularly with the United States?

Yes. In fact, I made reference to this yesterday. However, my hon. Friends question gives me the chance to say that I hope to meet the President of the United States. Indeed, a statement was issued an hour ago saying that, at the invention of President Giscard d'Estaing, the President of the United States, President Giscard d'Estaing himself, Chancellor Schmidt and I will be meeting on the island of Guadeloupe on 4th and 5th January to discuss matters of common political concern. There will be no formal agenda at this meeting, but our discussions will be on an intimate basis, which will enable us to exchange views with each other. I believe that it will be of benefit to the world.

When the right hon. Gentleman was on the mainland of Europe earlier this week, did he receive many congratulations on his recent savage attack on the memory of Sir Winston Churchill?

No one raised the question with me. I think that the Europeans have a sense of proportion about the cut and thrust of debate in this House.

With regard to farm workers' pay, will the Prime Minister consider favourably meeting the leaders of the farm workers' union and to look sympathetically at their claim, in view of the industry's ability to pay, the farm workers' production record, the fact that of those drawing family income supplement 17 per cent. are farm workers and also in view of the need to increase domestic food production in order to cushion the impact of the CAP on the British consumer?

If any meeting is to be arranged—I do not want to pronounce upon it—I think that it should be with the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

Will the Prime Minister take time today to answer the question of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition about the Comptroller and Auditor General going into the accounts of the NEB? Is it not rather disgraceful that he refuses to allow this to happen on the very day that the NEB is asking for another £1,000 million of taxpayers' money? Would not that be the right way of doing it?

I have already answered that question.

asked the Prime Minister if he will his official engagements for Thursday 7th December.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).

Is the Prime Minister aware of the inadequacy of present death grant levels in view of rising costs and inflation, and that to maintain the death grant at its original 1949 value it would have to be raised from the present level of £30 to about £123? In view of the great concern felt by pensioner organisations, will he therefore look into this matter in order to raise the grant to something more appropriate to present day costs?

I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for giving me some preliminary warning that he intended to raise this matter, which has enabled me to look into it. As he correctly said, the value of the death grant has substantially fallen behind. This matter was discussed very recently at the Labour Party conference, among other places, and has been taken up by a number of my hon. Friends. I think that there is obviously a substantial discrepancy here. But we are keeping a very tight control on public expenditure, and we intend to keep it within the limits which are laid down. Therefore, I cannot undertake that there will be an increase in the death grant during the current financial year.

Will my right hon. Friend take an opportunity today to look at reports that the Co-operative Housing Agency is to be closed down? Is he aware that if this does take place it will cause great anger in the co-operative movement? Will he take steps to ensure that it does not?

I am not aware of this, but I shall bring it to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and ask him to communicate with my hon. Friend.

Arising from the Prime Minister's statement yesterday about the development of microelectronics, is he aware that we have in Wales a unique country which would be a wonderful site for the development of this technology?

I heartily agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question. I am sure that this new technology could happily find a home in South Wales. However, I think that we must look at this from a national point of view and I cannot go further than my right hon. Friend has done so far.

In the course of a busy week, has the Prime Minister yet had time to read yesterday's leading letter in The Daily Telegraph from the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) entitled"The Duty of a Minister "? If so. has he yet obtained a commitment to collective responsibility from the Secretary of State for Energy similar to that which his predecessor obtained? If he has obtained such a commitment, why is it not working?

I did read my right hon. Friend's letter, and I was very interested in it. If I have anything to communicate to the hon. Gentleman on the subject, I shall let him know in due course.

If my right hon. Friend has time during the course of the day, will he look at the replies given by the chairman of the NEB to the Public Accounts Committee? Is he aware that the good reason given by the chairman for non-disclosure was that of business confidentiality? Is he further aware that, though on the Conservative side of the House, contrary to what the right hon. Lady said, business confidentiality is widely accepted as a good reason, it is not accepted as such by Labour Members?

My hon. Friend has revealed what I had already suspected —that perhaps there are more points of view than that expressed by the right hon. Lady. It only goes to show how right I was to be cautious and not to be seduced by her blandishments. I shall certainly ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry to consider the points raised by the right hon. Lady to see whether there is any occasion to change the practice. But clearly, when we are dealing with private enterprise firms, a lot of value must be attached to business confidence if they wish it to be respected.

Will the Prime Minister find time today to complete his thinking on the advice to be given to those who, in the course of industrial disputes in essential services, are contemplating crossing the picket lines in order to ensure the safety of the public?

This is an important point. I understand that there is a Private Notice Question at 3.30 p.m. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will kindly wait for a few moments.

In view of what my right hon. Friend has said about advanced technology, will he take some time today to consider the social consequences of that technology? Does he not agree that this is an important factor in the siting of future industries? Will he therefore consider whether the siting of INMOS in the South-West would be a contradiction of that policy?

I am aware that my hon. Friend is pressing the case for INMOS to be settled in the Merseyside area in view of the need there, but I cannot pronounce on that matter today. Of course the social consequences of basing these industries are important, as are the consequences that will flow from the employment that they will give. That I readily understand.