asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what current discussions he is holding with local authorities on the prevention and cure of condensation in local authority housing.

My right hon. Friend decided, following discussion with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, to ask authorities to examine the incidence of condensation in their housing stock and to give high priority to remedial measures in their housing plans.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he give us an indication of when he expects COSLA to have completed this survey? On publication of the survey, will the Scottish Office reconsider its decision not to make available special funds for remedial action undertaken by local authorities? In the long term, will the Minister look particularly at the design of houses, since it seems to be a specific design which leads to this problem?

I am sorry, but the hon. Lady is wrong in two out of three of her comments. COSLA is not conducting a survey. The Government have asked housing authorities to take stock of their problems in their areas and to advise the Government of the extent of them. Secondly, the Government are considering this matter. We have not taken any decision. Funds are available. I am sorry that the hon. Lady is shaking her head. We have made the situation clear to local authorities, and we have not restricted any authority which wants to carry out remedial work. Money has been made available for insulation in both the public and the private sectors. Therefore, there is no lack of energy or enthusiasm on the part of the Government to cure this problem.

Order. I hope that we shall have short questions and answers.

Is the Minister aware that council tenants in my constituency have been told by the housing department that breathing is one of the main causes of condensation and they have been advised accordingly? Is he further aware that housing departments are terrified of accepting responsibility for this problem because of the scale of expenditure that would be required? Will the Government give all the help that they can?

The answer is "Yes, the Government will give all the help they can ", but it does not add much to the understanding of the problem to treat this matter light-heartedly. There is a genuine problem in educating tenants, though that is not the whole story. However, the Government certainly want action to be taken and it must be taken by housing authorities.

Is the Minister aware that we shall warmly welcome whatever action he feels he can take regarding this matter? However, does he not think it strange that when a private house has dampness in it the owner eliminates it by putting the matter right, whereas when a public tenant has dampness in his house it is called condensation and he is told that nothing can be done about it?

That is too superficial an observation for me to respond to. We do not know the extent of this problem in the private sector. I am responsible for the public sector, and I repeat that we are anxious to find a solution to this serious problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the impact of the careers officers' dispute on the youth opportunities programme and engineering training services sponsorship scheme in Tayside.

I cannot usefully add to what I told the hon. Member on 15th November. The Government remain very concerned at the effects of this dispute upon young people in Tayside.

Does the Minister realise that this dispute has been running for some five months and that with the arrival of the Christmas school leaving date a large number of school leavers will be thrown into unemployment because of a lack of facilities under the youth opportunities scheme? Will he either persuade the parties concerned to arbitrate on the issue or intervene to secure a national review of the careers service so that a solution can be found to the situation on Tayside?

I am bound to say to the hon. Gentleman that in all conscience I do not feel that comments by Ministers from the Dispatch Box during an industrial dispute are terribly helpful. It is something that genuinely worries me, the more so since, as the hon. Gentleman said, the Christmas school leaving date is approaching. However, ACAS is working on this dispute, and if it is thought that either myself or my right hon. Friend can be of any value in doing something about it we shall certainly be prepared to offer our services.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that as well as training opportunities there must also be employment opportunities for those who have trained? Is he aware that in Brechin, in my constituency in Tayside, the Matrix Engineering firm has already declared over 20 people redundant and that another 40 are in the process of being made redundant? Will he do what he can to make sure that we have a viable engineering industry in Tayside to take advantage of these facilities?

Yes, I certainly shall. The hon. Gentleman was kind enough to talk to me about this matter some time ago. I have asked my Department to look at the Matrix situation. If there is any scheme which can be put forward to me which will make the project more viable and provide extra jobs in the area, my right hon. Friend and myself will consider it.

In view of what the Minister said about the seriousness of this problem and the length of the dispute, does he appreciate that complex problems of regrading are involved, and that there appears to be doubt in the minds of the council as to exactly what is permitted in regrading under pay policy and what will be permitted for reckonable expenditure for rate support grant purposes? Will the Minister be willing to get in touch with the council to make sure that any questions of doubt are removed and to make it clear publicly that if an initiative by himself or the Secretary of State would be helpful at this stage he would be willing to take it speedily?

I think that, in the first instance, as I said a few moments ago, the sensible thing is to allow ACAS to proceed with this matter as well as it can, and it is doing that. But if there are any further initiatives which will bring an end to this very sad and sorry tale, I shall certainly be prepared to consider them.

Is the Minister aware that Tayside regional councillors have refused to meet the striking careers officers or the unions in order to resolve this long-running strike and that that had led to a collapse of the youth oportunities programme? Will he, therefore, do everything in his power to try to get the parties together as quickly as possible in order to help these youngsters?

There is one thing that it has not stopped. It has not stopped people offering to make these opportunities available. Because of the careers officers dispute it is difficult to find young people to take up these opportunities. But, as I said earlier, I think that in the meantime the sensible thing is to leave the matter to ACAS. If it is thought that any intervention on my part would be helpful, I should certainly consider that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the present arrangements for the imprisonment of those convicted of murder or other violent crimes who are found to have serious personality disorders.

Some prisoners who suffer from serious personality disorders may from time to time present problems of management. I am satisfied that the arrangements for the custody of such prisoners provide adequate protection for the public.

Does the Secretary of State agree, however, that his reply indicates that there might be a gap in the system and that something ought to exist between ordinary prisoners and the State hospital at Carstairs for dealing with people such as this? We appreciate that the public are safeguarded, but we ought to think also of the needs of these prisoners.

I think that the number of prisoners who present very serious problems because of personality disorders is quite small. They are, of course, in prison. I am not sure that the case has been made out for some special kind of accommodation for these prisoners, but Carstairs exists for dealing with prisoners in appropriate cases and we transfer prisoners there from time to time. It is very difficult to make sure that we have the right kind of accommodation for every kind of personality disorder that might manifest itself in prisoners.

On the wider question of other prisoners convicted of violent crimes, has my right hon. Friend considered the possibility of the extension of the special unit elsewhere? What lessons has he learnt from it?

On the second point, there is a Question a little later on the Order Paper. On the first point, I have recently offered both the SPOA and the prison governors the opportunity to discuss whether we should have special units within the prison system, either on the Barlinnie special unit lines or on any other lines that they may suggest to us. That matter is under active consideration.

Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge that the special unit at Barlinnie has served an extremely important purpose within the Scottish prison service and that its success is an example to prison services elsewhere? Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that he will keep his mind open on how this unit develops and whether there ought to be other units with a slightly more psychiatric bent, without, perhaps, going to the length of the State hospital in Carstairs?

I accept what the hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his question, but, unfortunately, there are certain prisoners who have been sent to the Barlinnie special unit but have not settled down there. The unit has not proved suitable for them. It is extremely difficult to get the right kind of provision for the comparatively few very troublesome prisoners that we have in the system at present.

Is the Secretary of State aware that in Peterhead prison we have a very large number of prisoners serving long sentences and that this imposes a very heavy strain on the prison officers who are working in what can only be described as nineteenth century conditions? Is the Secretary of State able to tell us what plans he has for the future of Peterhead prison to make the officers' work more effective and more congenial?

I cannot say offhand what plans there might be for Peterhead, but I am aware that there are some very difficult prisoners in there. I am also aware that they are handled extremely well.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to exterminate feral mink.

Responsibility for control of feral mink rests with the occupiers of land, but my Department is ready to advise on suitable control measures.

Is not the Minister being extremely complacent? Why are the Government so certain that they could exterminate feral mink if rabies came to this country, when they are unable to do anything about it when it is a question of saving poultry on the upland farms or our native species of birds from this voracious, alien carnivore, as it has been so rightly called recently—[An HON. MEMBER: "Dennis Canavan."] —though obviously not by the Minister?

I am not being complacent. [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) does not need time to think. He can come back on that for himself.

The Minister says that this is a serious problem. Will he say what hard information he has about it? How many of these wild mink are there? What do they live on? Has the Minister any estimate of the damage that they do?

As far as I know, they are not particularly prevalent on either Orkney or Shetland, although I know that there is a local problem. I do not think that anyone knows how many there are. It is certainly a problem in some areas. This is a serious matter. Feral mink have one unfortunate habit. They kill more than they need to eat. That makes them rather unpleasant.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects his current discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities to result in the implementation of section 8 of the Road Traffic Act.

My right hon. Friend has told the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities that he proposes to bring section 8 of the Road Traffic Act 1974 into force from 1st April 1979.

That is a very helpful reply. In the meantime, however, will my hon. Friend give the House some indication that there will be some alleviation of the appalling lack of facilities for training motor cyclists, bearing in mind that in the last year fatalities to motor cyclists were an all-time record figure?

Section 8 puts a duty on local authorities to promote road safety, rather than just confirming the power that they had previously. I realise that the number of accidents to motor cyclists represents a serious problem, and I shall convey what has been said to my ministerial colleagues who deal with it at the Scottish Office.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimates he has made of the effect on transport in rural areas of Scotland of the proposals contained within the Department of Transport's document on the future of vehicle excise duty.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what consultations he had with local authorities and groups involved with rural communities before the publication of the Department of Transport's document on the future of vehicle excise duty.

As my right hon. Friend told the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) on 27th November, the Government's information paper gives details of the decision to change from vehicle excise duty to an enhanced petrol tax and discusses the factors taken into account in reaching this decision.

Is the Minister aware that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has said that this should not have any serious effect in the rural areas, and that in saying that he is under a complete misapprehension? Will the Minister take note of the representations from industry and from individuals in the rural areas? Will he accept that Scottish Members tend to look to the Scottish Office to protect their interests, not just those within its statutory responsibilities but in relation to other Government Departments? At present, given the transport document and the rate support grant proposals, the Scottish Office is giving the impression that it is writing off the rural areas of Scotland.

Scottish Office Ministers always take these matters into consideration and convey views to their colleagues. I do not take the same view about the rural remoteness as I have seen taken by the right hon. Gentleman. I believe that it will be as much to the advantage of those who live in rural areas as it will be to others. Indeed, many people who live in rural areas will be able to put a motor car on the road when they could not previously have afforded to do so.

Does the Minister accept that most people find it incomprehensible that his Department does not seem to have consulted those who know something about the countryside and rural areas? How can he stand at that Dispatch Box and say that this will not affect the rural areas? Of course it will. Does not the Minister appreciate that it may cost an extra £70 to do 15,000 miles a year, which is a very average home-to-work distance in Scotland, and that all these people, and motor cyclists in particular, will be exceptionally heavily penalised?

There is one thing that ought to be made crystal clear. We have said it in the documents, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has said it several times. Taking an average journey of about 16 miles to work, and so forth, there will still be a margin of about 3,000 extra miles, and I believe that this will be to the advantage of people living in rural areas.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that many of us are surprised at his assertion that people in rural areas will be better off under these proposals? Would he care to make available some detailed figures to prove the case that he is trying to put forward?

I do not think that I need to go further than I have. I have said that there is a substantial margin and that people in rural areas who could not afford to put a motor car on the road will now be able to do so.

In view of the representations today from all parts of the House, will the Minister take a fresh look at this problem and ask his colleague at the Ministry of Transport to judge the effect that it will have on many workers who live in rural areas, who are on low wage rates and who will find that they are better off staying at home than going to work?

The hon. Gentleman knows that all these matters will have to go through the House of Commons and that when that happens he will be able to make the speech that he has just made.

Is the Minister aware that many people in rural areas, after reading the Government's answers today, will get the impression that the Government are living in cloud-cuckoo-land? Will he make a point of trying to find out more about the views of those in rural areas, and will he bear in mind that many people in those areas have no option but to use cars as they have to travel considerable distances to work?

I am bound to say that there is always a bit of conflict between rural areas and urban areas in a matter of this kind. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would care to consult the electors of Castlemilk and Newlands and then come back to me.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is basically a long-awaited change in the licensing law for vehicles and that, as he said, many people in rural areas will find that, for the first time, they are able to operate a motor car? The initial standing charge is the reason why it has been impossible for many people to run a car. If my right hon. Friend goes to parts of Argyll he will see cars on blocks. They are not able to be used because of the initial cost of putting them on the road.

My hon. Friend is right. The matter was given a great deal of thought. The whole question of rural areas was very carefully considered, as were the problems of those who live in the urban areas, and it was on this basis that the Government took the decision.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Due to the thoroughly complacent reply of the Minister, I beg to give notice that I shall seek an early opportunity of raising the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the current shortage of secondary school teachers in Fife and other local authorities in Scotland, and of Kirkcaldy high school in particular; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend hopes to publish soon a statistical bulletin about pupil and teacher numbers at September 1978 and I shall write to my hon. Friend at that time.

I appreciate the Minister's reply, but is he aware of the disquiet among parents because of the staffing crisis in secondary schools in Scotland, which arises mainly from implementation of the red book standards? Will he comment on that?

I think that perhaps that is a slight exaggeration from my hon. Friend, who takes a keen interest in these matters. We now have 1,500 secondary teachers above the agreed standards, which is more than we had in previous years, and the pupil-teacher ratio in secondary schools, as in primary schools, is the best that we have ever had in Scottish education. It is now 14·5, and that is much better than the figure in the rest of the country.

I hate to interrupt the Under-Secretary of State while he is patting himself on the back with statistics yet again, but will he look very carefully at the system of appointments to promoted posts, which prevents people from outwith the Strathclyde region applying for promoted posts in that area, including shortage subjects, such as technical subjects?

I understand the hon. Lady's point, because she has written to me about it. The point about promoted posts is that Strathclyde can find enough people from within its area for promoted posts. The shortage is of ordinary classroom teachers, and I do not deny that we have a problem in shortage subjects such as physics, technical education and principally mathematics. We are looking at the question. I have had meetings with the Educational Institute for Scotland, the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association and Strathclyde region.

Is not there a danger that the Minister's reply may be taken as being a little too complacent? There are still serious shortages in parts of the country. Is it not a fact that Ministers over-reacted in cutting down the number of students entering training colleges? Has not that been confirmed by the joint survey carried out by the EIS at Jordanhill college? Is not there a great danger that the error is being repeated? What action will the Minister take to make sure that it does not happen again?

I am sorry that the hon. Member has got it wrong again, but he should know, because it has been said often enough at this Dispatch Box by my right hon. Friend and myself, that there is no restriction at all on young people coming forward for these shortage subjects. We have a dilemma with certain subjects, where we have a surplus because of the falling birth rate, and I think that everyone accepts that. My right hon. Friend announced last Friday that we shall be starting a publicity campaign particularly for these shortage subjects, which is where our problem lies. As I said earlier, I shall be having urgent meetings with the various bodies concerned to try to overcome the problem.

Will my hon. Friend take it from me that we wish him well in his efforts to get extra staff for the schools of Scotland? But will he, in conjunction with the leaders of the trade union concerned, whose moralistic attitude towards the deprived areas has not been borne out by the strikes in schools in these deprived areas, convey to them that they are not doing the deprived areas any good but are making the deprived children even more deprived by their pharisaical attitude?

I could not agree more, and I think that I have the support of the House in condemning these unofficial strikes, particularly in the deprived areas. There is no point in my right hon. Friend and myself pushing in extra teachers—500 extra teachers mostly into Strathclyde for deprived areas plus over 160 teachers through the urban aid programmes—when we find that action is taken by the union concerned and that it tends to be in the most deprived areas. I would not deny anyone the right to withdraw his labour, but he should have regard to the area from which he withdraws it.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will discuss with the Scottish Sports Council the effect on Scottish sport of Government policy concerning the employment of footballers from other countries.

Such discussion is not necessary as my right hon. Friend is already aware of the views of the national football bodies in Scotland.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the refusal of a work permit to the Hibs Norwegian player, Izak Refrik, indicates that the Department of Employment is being autocratic and intransigent and that it is hopelessly out of touch with the needs of Scottish football, which would be the poorer if players such as Refrik were forced to leave? In view of this and the apparent differences of opinion on this matter between the Scottish Office and the Department of Employment, will my hon. Friend refer the matter to the Prime Minister in the hope of coming to a favourable common sense decision?

I am afraid that exaggeration seems to be the order of the day so far at Question Time. I have attended two meetings at the Department of Employment, and I do not concede the expression that my hon. Friend has used about my hon. Friend at that Department. After all, Hibernian football club caused this problem itself. It received advice from the Department of Employment about work permits, yet it still brought in these young players.

Order. A yellow card is indicated.

If you knew how sensitive this issue was in Scotland, Mr. Speaker, you would be giving out red cards across the way.

I congratulate the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) on discovering that this place discriminates against Scotland. Will he, the Labour Party and the Conservative Party be intellectually honest with them-selves—

Impossible.

and realise that if they talk about Scotland as a separate foot-balling nation, the logical sequel is that it should be a separate political nation?

I do not want to waste the time of the House by answering that question.

Does the Minister accept that he and the Government are making astonishingly heavy weather over allowing this gifted young footballer to play for Hibernian? Does he also agree that he has given the complete lie to ministerial responsibility, in that his view is totally contrary to that of a fellow colleague in the Government? Surely the position cannot be allowed to remain as he stated it today. Will he give a categoric assurance that he will go to the Department of Employment this afternoon, agree to discuss the matter, be flexible and allow this young lad to play football in Scotland?

The hon. Gentleman, who has sporting interests at heart, should know that it is not for me or for other Ministers to make a decision on the spot. We have to consult the various football bodies. This is not a sporting problem but a work permit one. We have to be careful that in solving the problem of a Hibernian football player we do not abuse the work permit system in general.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any proposals for the amendment of the law relating to aliment and periodical allowances with particular reference to methods of enforcement of payment.

My right hon. Friend has at present no proposals to amend the substantive law relating to aliment and periodical allowances.

Is the Minister aware that the Council of the Law Society in Scotland is extremely anxious that legislation should be introduced as soon as possible as hardship is being caused in many cases where enforcement cannot be made?

I am aware of the point made by the hon. Gentleman. The Council has written to my Department. It is expected at this stage that the Law Commission will publish a report on this aspect of its work without having any further consultations. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and myself are anxious about what is a real problem.

Does the Minister accept that there will be great disappointment among many one-parent families in Scotland that there are no immediate plans to alter these laws? Will he, on an interim basis, look particularly at the cross-border situation, because many divorcees dependent on family income supplement, when they try to enforce aliment payments from husbands who have crossed into England, are told by the legal aid companies that they must pay as much as £300?

I know of the problem. I hope that we can resolve it, at least in part, early in the new year. The decrees granted in the Court of Session in Scotland and registered in the High Court here can be registered in the courts in England. That will make collection much easier and more convenient. We hope to take care of that problem early in the new year.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the latest estimate of the total annual cost of running an Assembly to cover the upkeep of the building, the salaries and pensions of extra civil servants and other staff required, and of the Assemblymen, together with any allowances proposed to be paid and the cost of the Executive.

In the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Scotland Bill £13 million was the estimate of total extra annual costs in Scotland consequent on devolution. That figure remains correct to within 1 per cent. or 2 per cent.

Is not £13 million a substantial sum of money? Does the Minister realise that if it costs £13 million to set up the Assembly there will be £13 million a year less for other services, such as education, health or home helps for the needy? Will he, on behalf of the Government, make clear in the referendum campaign that a "Yes" vote will mean more cash for the bureaucracy and less for the needs of the people?

It is, indeed, a substantial amount of money, but it is only one-half of 1 per cent. of the total of all public expenditure that will be spent by the Assembly.

It is a lot of money.

It is important for the House to understand that we discussed this matter earlier and that the £13 million was approved. I promise to make many things clear during the referendum campaign. Perhaps I can do a deal with the hon. Gentleman. If he can get his colleagues to make some of their policies clear, that will help the debate.

Is the Minister aware that the House of Commons depends greatly on its Clerks and the staff of the Library and that if anything were to happen to them the House would soon grind to a halt? What steps are being taken to ensure that staff of equivalent calibre are being trained, seconded or recruited for work at the Scottish Assembly?

We have two Deputy Principal Clerks from the House of Commons on secondment to the Scottish Office to consider the very point made by the right hon. Gentleman.

Does my hon. Friend accept that many people in Scotland would see the expense to which reference has been made as a small item in the total balance sheet, and that if the Assembly were to provide a more responsive and flexible Government structure in Scotland than the United Kingdom has done it would be money well spent? Is he not a little depressed that when there are so many major constitutional arguments in the balance the Opposition should continually go in for these miserable penny-pinching arguments and scares about expenditure rather than deal with real issues?

I never get depressed by the Opposition. I allow them to wallow in their own depression.

Will not the cost of the Assembly be about the price of a box of matches, or 5p a week to each individual in Scotland? Is not that a miniscule sum compared with the enormous expenditure on the regions? Is it not clear that, once the Assembly is set up, there will have to be a reorganisation of local government, and that if the regions go, that will be a significant saving?

I am not sure about the reorganisation of local government, because that is not my responsibility. If reorganisation of local government were to take place, I seriously doubt whether it would be based on evidence given by the Scottish National Party, which has suggested that all townships in Scotland should be based on motorways. Therefore, instead of having the Falkirk district council, we would have the M9 district council. That would not be acceptable.

How much money has been spent so far on adapting the building for a Scottish Assembly and all related matters? What contingency plans do the Government have, when the people of Scotland vote "No" in the referendum, to salvage some value to the taxpayer out of this costly white elephant?

We have spent approximately £2·2 million. The contingency will not arise, because I understand that the new tune that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) is playing on his chanter is that thę Tories in Scotland are in favour of devolution. I assume that even their plans would require a building.

Does my hon. Friend find it astonishing that the Scottish National Party, which has such a hatred of local government and local democracy, wishes to unscramble the regions and districts?

I do not think that there would be any votes for any political party which suggested that the people of Scotland should go in for another massive reorganisation of local government.

I should like to make it clear that we shall be campaigning for a "No" vote. Is the Minister aware that if there were a free vote we and the majority of hon. Members in the House could think of many more useful ways of spending £13 million a year in Scotland than on this costly bureaucratic nonsense?

The House will be delighted to learn that the Tories in Scotland are now against devolution. Last week they were in favour of it. This week they have changed their tune and are now against it. As the referendum campaign goes on, no doubt their attitude will change almost from day to day. I think that most people who follow the hon. Member for Cathcart do so not out of loyalty, but out of curiosity.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the average percentage increase in domestic rates in 1979–80 compared with the previous year.

I estimate that, taking into account the effect of the Rate Support Grant (Scotland) Order 1978, which the House is due to debate tomorrow, the average percentage increase in domestic and other rates in Scotland in 1979–80 should be well within single figures.

Is not this bad news for ratepayers, since the Government's policy is to restrict their wage increases to 5 per cent.? Is the Secretary of State aware that there is widespread anger in the rural areas because of the Government's gerrymandering of the rate support grant, which means that rural areas which are not Socialist will have to pay for years of Socialist neglect of our cities?

That is a ludicrous accusation. It is also a scandalous one, because these matters are discussed with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

Local authorities are very angry.

They are not.

I have had letters from them.

I dare say that the hon. Gentleman has had letters from some Scottish local authorities. But the extent of the redistribution is extremely modest. It amounts to about £4 million to £5 million out of a total rate support grant settlement of well over £1,000 million next year. I shall be delighted to debate this matter extensively tomorrow. I hope that Conservative Members who are complaining about this will be here, because last year they were conspicuous by their absence.

Order, we must make quicker progress, and I shall call fewer hon. Members to ask supplementary questions.

Has my right hon. Friend received representations from Fife regional council against the proposed rate support grant because of the additional amount of money which is being allocated to Glasgow and the West of Scotland? Will he assure the House that before he presses the matter to a Division tomorrow night he will reconsider the representations from the various regional authorities?

Now answer my question.

It is no use my hon. Friend or anyone else talking about the problems of deprived urban areas in Scotland, unless they are willing to face some of the implications. What I have done this year is to make a modest redistribution. Incidentally, it is a good deal more modest than happens in England regularly under both Conservative and Labour Governments. I stand by that redistribution. It is a very modest one, indeed, and I shall be delighted to debate the matter tomorrow night, regardless of the views of the Fife regional council or anyone else.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman understand the reality of this? For example, in a village in my constituency, a garage which was formerly rated at £930 is now rated at £4,309. That is the sort of increase that people cannot sustain, especially those who are trying to run small businesses.

With great respect, that has absolutely nothing to do with the rate support grant order. It has to do with revaluation. I repeat that last year domestic ratepayers in Scotland paid 6 per cent. less rates than they did in the previous year. That is the reality of the valuation for domestic ratepayers. Next year, these same domestic ratepayers will pay increased rates of well within 10 per cent. In my view, taking the two years together, domestic ratepayers in Scotland will pay no more than they did in 1977–78. That is very good news for domestic ratepayers.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received concerning the transfer of Langforgan and other villages in the Carse of Gowrie from Dundee District to Perth and Kinross District.

None.

Is the Minister aware of the great dissatisfaction among villagers in the Carse of Gowrie? They used to be part of the Perth county council and they wish to revert to Perth and Kinross district council. Will he make representations to the Boundary Commission about this?

I cannot take responsibility for the boundaries that were drawn up at that time, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. I am given to understand that this was very carefully considered at the time and the conclusion was reached that this should await the general review of the administrative boundaries which the Boundary Commission will make between 1985 and 1990.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many persons were awaiting admission to geriatric and psychogeriatric hospitals at the most recent date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement.

The figures at 31st March of this year were 1,616 and 397 respectively. The geriatric waiting list includes an unknown number of psycho-geriatric patients; and such patients may also be included in separate psychiatric waiting lists.

Does the Minister agree that there is a serious problem in regard to the waiting lists? Does he agree also that they may not tell the whole story because some people who feel that there is little chance of getting into hospital soon do not go on the normal admission lists? The medical profession takes the view that this is a desperately serious problem. Does the Minister think that it will get any better in the near future, bearing in mind the increase in the ageing population? Does he think that there is a case for a study into the nature and extent of this serious problem?

I agree that this is a serious problem, so much so that my right hon. Friend met the Greater Glasgow Health Board within the last few weeks. We are anxious to do everything possible to solve this problem. Our discussion document "The Way Ahead ", which was designed to switch resources from the short-stay acute situation to the long-stay situation, has had an effect, and these additional replacement beds that we are providing will make the position better in the months ahead. We do not take this problem lightly. We take it very seriously indeed.

Does the Minister recollect that the White Paper "Prevention and Health" promised a White Paper in 1979 on the elderly? Can he tell us whether it will be published soon after the new year, before the referendum or before the General Election?

All I can say is that it will be published in 1979.

Does my hon. Friend accept that it is good news that we shall have 11 units with 30 places in Glasgow, because of the great demand? Can he give any idea of the time scale in which these beds can be expected to be made available?

I shall write to my hon. Friend and give him the details.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will further delay Government plans to de-trunk the A92 coastal route to Aberdeen through South Angus until such time as a Forfar bypass is completed and in operation.

No. It has already been decided that responsibility for expenditure on two trunk roads in this area cannot be accepted after 31st March 1979.

I am disappointed at the Government's refusal to retain trunk status for the A92, but will the Minister look again at the problems which will be created for Forfar until the necessary bypass is completed? Will he see what steps he can take to bring improvements to the Dundee-Arbroath road, bearing in mind the special needs in the villages of Muirdrum and Marywell?

I cannot comment on that, but I shall discuss it with the hon. Gentleman and refer to my right hon. Friend who takes care of this within the Scottish Office.

Is the Minister aware that it is grossly unfair on local authorities for a road to be de-trunked before its replacement is in a proper condition to receive the traffic? Will he, therefore, reconsider this matter, not only in this case but as a general matter of policy?

The hon. Gentleman must be fair to the SDD. The coastal route which we are leaving as a de-trunked road is of a high standard, and the road that we are accepting—the inner route—needs a lot of attention. I accept that, and money is being spent as quickly as possible.

Does the hon. Gentleman really believe that the coastal route is of a high standard? Has he ever driven through Montrose? Is he not aware of the desperate need for a relief road from Montrose, and what will he do about that?

I know that it is election year, but we should get things into their proper perspective. In all seriousness, my noble Friend who has day-to-day responsibility for these matters and the officials to whom I have spoken within SDD have assured me that the standard of the coastal route is very high indeed.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made in converting the Royal high school in Edinburgh for the proposed Scottish Assembly.

Satisfactory progress has been made and all the work should be complete by next summer.

Does that mean that it will be completed by the time the Assembly elections take place?

It will be completed before the Assembly elections take place.

Is the Minister aware that people in Scotland are seriously asking what will happen to that building in the event of a "No" vote? Will he tell the House what contingency plans the Government have in mind?

I have never noticed the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) making any serious contribution to this debate. As I have already explained, the hypothetical situation presumably now does not arise. If the Tories in Scotland are in favour of devolution, it has to be presumed that even their system will require a building in which to work.

When does the Minister expect to be able to tell the House the dates of the Assembly elections? Can he now say when we can expect to be in the Assembly?

I can hazard a guess as to when the hon. Gentleman can expect to be out of Parliament, but not when he can expect to be in the Assembly. I certainly could not anticipate the date of the elections.

What will happen to the unseen rather than the obscene in connection with the Assembly? What plans exist to move all the present bureaucrats out of old St. Andrew's House into New St. Andrew's House, all those in New St. Andrew's House out of New St. Andrew's House into another building, and what is the estimated cost?

I saw the letter on which that question was based. Far from no one knowing anything about what has been happening, these matters have been widely discussed. We shall make the fullest use of old St. Andrew's House, New St. Andrew's House and any additional accommodation that we might have to ask permission to purchase.

asked the Lord Advocate what is his policy with regard to prosecutions for breaches of conditions of site licences issued by local authorities under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.

Each case is considered on its merits having regard to all the circumstances.

So that local authorities can interpret that answer, is it possible for the Lord Advocate to say what factors are taken into account in his decision to prosecute? Will he circulate the list of factors to all local authorities concerned?

I sympathise with my hon. Friend's point, but if one is to consider each case on its merits one cannot start categorising circumstances. I can say, however, that one of the factors taken into account in deciding whether it is in the public interest to prosecute is the availability of sites for caravan users, including travelling people, who are completely dependent on such sites for their homes. The Birsay report dealt authoritatively with that matter. Other factors, of course, are matters such as public safety and the materiality of any breach of licence conditions.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the problem is not only the operation of this Act but the actual provision of sites? How do his Department and his colleagues at the Scottish Office intend to ensure that local authorities fulfil their obligation in this regard, with special reference to Scotland's travelling folk?

My hon. Friend will recall that I referred to the Birsay report, which dealt authoritatively with the matter. I agree that provision of these sites is crucial. It is not, however, my ministerial responsibility. The Secretary of State for Scotland, who is present, will have heard what my hon. Friend said.

asked the Lord Advocate if he is satisfied with the provision of sheriff court facilities and staff in relation to the needs of the Procurator Fiscal service.

Sheriff court accommodation for the Procurator Fiscal service is in many cases overcrowded. Alternative premises are being obtained or sought. Staffing of the Procurator Fiscal service is currently almost up to establishment.

Will the Lord Advocate consult the 1977 digest of criminal statistics for Scotland? If he does, he will see that there were substantial delays in prosecutions, particularly those relating to indictable offences. Will he say when those resources, which have been promised for years, will be made available for the sheriff court buildings?

I am in a dilemma, because the hon. Gentleman put down a Question relating to sheriff court facilities. In order to answer his supplementary question, one has to look at the whole spectrum of criminal statistics for the High Court and all other courts, district courts as well as sheriff courts. He implied that money had not been spent and that activity had not taken place. I refute that entirely. There has been considerable expansion during the current year of provisions in all respects to cope with the blacklog of criminal cases.

There is a provision in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill that if an indictment case is not brought to court within 12 months of the first appearance on petition the matter shall fall. Does the Lord Advocate think that the present staffing of the Procurator Fiscal service will allow that to be implemented?

I am making due allowance for the fact that this will create problems for us. I hope that by bringing the current establishment up to full strength it will be possible to manage with very little increase in staff.

Would it not have been wise, in view of these pressures, to have enacted in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, or still to do so, the recommendation in the Thomson report that the sheriff court should have an increased jurisdiction to sentence for three years and that there should be no remit for sentence so that cases which should never go there in the first place are thereafter remitted to a forum which has not heard them? If he is short of space, would not the Lord Advocate have done better by knocking down the left wing of a listed building in Dundee?

I shall not make any comment on the last part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question. In regard to the first part, it is fair to say that there are many recommendations in the Thomson report which have to be considered along with other priorities. As he knows, the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill hopes to strike a reasonable balance between the various provisions to produce a package that will bring immediate results in the short term. I take note of the point that he makes, with which I have some sympathy.

asked the Lord Advocate if his Department has reached agreement with the Procurator Fiscal in Oban regarding a revision of the latter's conditions of service.

The salary of the part-time Procurator Fiscal at Oban was raised with effect from 1st April 1978. The secretarial allowance has more recently been updated. No other changes have been made.

In view of the current nature of the position of the Procurator Fiscal in Oban, does not the Lord Advocate think that his Department was rigid in the way that it carried out negotiations with him? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman regard the arrangements that have been made as satisfactory?

The House of Commons is not the place to negotiate salaries. In a period of pay restraint it must be the exception rather than the rule to find anyone who is not in the position of accepting increases while wishing that a greater increase had been made. I dare say that some hon. Members of this House feel that way.

asked the Lord Advocate whether he will arrange to meet the Scottish Law Commission to discuss the delay in the report of its committee on warrant sales.

I have no immediate plans to meet the Scottish Law Commission to discuss warrant sales. The Scottish Law Commission is proceeding as expeditiously as possible with the research to which I referred in an answer which I gave to my hon. Friend on 15th February 1978.

What does "expeditiously" mean, in view of the fact that the Law Commission working party was set up eight yeas ago? Will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that there is a vested interest in delay on the part of some members of the working party, such as John Gray, for example, the brother of the notorious sheriff officer, Thomas Gray? Instead of waiting for a report which may never come, will the Government take immediate steps to introduce legislation to ban this barbaric practice, which is banned in every other part of the United Kingdom?

I do not accept that my hon. Friend's comments are in any way justified. "Expeditiously" means quickly. The Scottish Law Commission's examination of the law of diligence has certainly not been quick. It has taken some time, but my hon. Friend must bear in mind that the Law Commission has had many immediate priorities that have had to be met in the past. A request for Government assistance in carrying out necessary social research was met immediately by the Government. This work began in November 1977. It is hoped that it will be completed before the end of 1979. The Law Commission will then consider the merits with a view to making recommendations as a result of the reports that it has received on these social inquiries. I repeat what I have said before in the House. If any specific evil which might readily be cured, is drawn to my attention, I shall look sympathetically at proposals for reform.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend at least freeze the use of this system of debt collection until the Law Commission reports, in view of the humiliation which it causes to consumers in this country?

I can only repeat what I have said already. I shall look specifically at any particular evil that is drawn to my attention.