asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when last he discussed unemployment in Scotland with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities.

My right hon. Friend has not specifically discussed this topic at any recent meetings with the convention. But over the past year he and I have had a number of meetings with local authorities to discuss unemployment in their areas.

Is the Minister aware that the intolerable level of unemployment in Scotland is a damning criticism of five years of Socialism? He is always talking about jobs in the pipeline and job creation, but the level of unemployment remains extremely high. What help is he giving to local authorities, through their development committees, to remedy the high unemployment figures?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman would be encouraged by the fact that the seasonally adjusted unemployment figures for Scotland show a decrease. There are 11,300 fewer unemployed now than at the corresponding time in 1978. I think that that is mildly encouraging, but my right hon. Friend and I are not complacent. We are doing all that we can to encourage firms to come to Scotland. By measures that we have adopted through Government action, such as the Industry Act, we are doing all that we can to promote growth.

What explanation will the Minister give to COSLA for the 40 per cent. drop in regional aid which was analysed by Professor Donald MacKay?

I have not seen anything of that sort. If the hon. Gentleman tables a question on the subject he will receive an answer.

Is the Minister aware that I tabled the very question that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) put to him as a supplementary question? The answer referred me to official figures that confirmed that the amount of assistance for industry, including REP and regional aids, had decreased substantially. That question was asked as recently as three or four days ago. Is not the hon. Gentleman ashamed that after four and a half years of Labour administration unemployment in Scotland has doubled and appears now to be increasing again? Does not that persuade the Government that their policies have been wrong and are still wrong?

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that for some considerable time we have been in the midst of a deep recession throughout the entire world. We cannot cut ourselves off, as perhaps the hon. Gentleman wishes, from every other set of circumstances. I indicated to the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro) that the seasonally adjusted unemployment figure—that is the figure with which we are all concerned—has dropped from the corresponding time last year. I take some little encouragement from that. I am astonished that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) has the nerve to speak in the House about REP.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects next to meet the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the spokesmen for the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland.

I have accepted an invitation to address the STUC's annual conference on 27 April. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State met representatives of the CBI (Scottish Office) as recently as 26 January.

Will the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the STUC some of the more distressing consequences of the present industrial action? Is he aware that Edinburgh presbytery has felt it necessary to advise mourners to stay away from the graveside when burials of relatives are delayed because of industrial action by gravediggers? Does he agree that there is something rotten in our state of industrial affairs when such advice has to be given?

I am not aware of that advice. I doubt whether it is necessary, but I shall examine the facts.

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the CBI in Scotland and the STUC to stop pussyfooting about jobs and investment in Scotland? Will he tell them that the best way to increase jobs and investment in Scotland and to retain existing jobs at Albion Motors in Glasgow is by the direct channelling of Scottish oil revenues into the Scottish economy and not into the Westminster coffers?

Scotland is already benefiting considerably from oil development in Scotland. The latest figures, which will be published shortly in the Scottish Economic Bulletin, indicate that the estimate of between 55,000 and 65,000 jobs arising directly or indirectly from Scottish oil exploration and development in the North Sea has been maintained.

Is it not humbug for Tory Members to complain about the present situation when we know their real attitude towards trade unionists and low-paid earners who are involved? Is it not time that both we and they realised that if we say that a group of workers should not go out on strike society must in return ensure that they enjoy conditions that mean that they do not need to go on strike? Despite the humbug of Opposition Members, a start should be made to provide such conditions for low-paid workers in Scotland and elsewhere.

There is a problem about public sector pay in relation to what happens in the private sector. Therefore, the Government suggested comparability studies in which comparisons would be made directly between what is happening in the private and public sectors. They suggested that comparability studies were a way forward.

Does the Minister think it would be a good idea to discuss with the CBI and the STUC as soon as possible this morning's serious news that British Leyland is withdrawing plans for a further 2,000 jobs at the Albion works in Glasgow? Does he agree that that is regrettable, as labour relations there have always been good? It does not seem fair that Albion should suffer because of bad labour relations elsewhere.

I do not accept the press reports about the loss of 2,000 jobs at Albion. I met the general manager of BL Scotland last Friday. He assured me that the jobs at Albion are safeguarded and will be safeguarded for a considerable time to come.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what measures he proposes to take to protect employment in fish processing.

I refer the hon. Member to my reply to his question on 17 January.

The Minister's reply on 17 January was to the effect that assistance would be available under section 7 of the Industry Act. Is it not the case that the industry has been in discussion with the Government for almost 18 months and that it could have been given that reply 18 months ago? There is nothing new that the Government have added to the situation. Will the Minister say specifically what assistance will be available to fish processing, in which so many thousands of people in Scotland are employed and which is under such grave threat at present?

I regret that the hon. Member was not here on Monday night when we discussed these matters in some detail. The discussion with the industry did not take place 18 months ago. The complication was that the herring processing industry asked for special assistance. As I explained on Monday night, it is the only industry I know of that is in difficulties as a result of a shortage of raw material. Consequently, we do not have powers to deal with that situation. The powers of the Industry Act have always been available to the industry. We are being as helpful as we can.

Is my hon. Friend able to offer any explanation of why Scottish National Party spokesmen find a cloud in every silver lining? Why is it that when a genuine offer of financial assistance is available to the industry, instead of encouraging companies to apply for assistance, they constantly say that it is no good and therefore discourage applications? Will my hon. Friend undertake to give us a month-by-month report on those companies which apply and what assistance they receive?

The provision of such reports must be subject to the fact that some of the information on the activities of individual companies is confidential. We had a meeting with the industry. We followed that up by writing and offering whatever advice, information and help we could give. We offered to hold a seminar in Aberdeen or any suitable place to advise on what is available under the Industry Act. Certainly I shall arrange to keep my hon. Friend informed.

While accepting that the difficulty of this industry is a lack of supplies, will the Minister give us an indication of when the Government hope to make an estimate of what supplies will be available in the coming year?

Supplies of what? If the right hon. Gentleman refers to herring, the indications are that in 1979 it is most unlikely that there will be any relaxation of the present ban in the North Sea and off the West Coast. We are not in a position to say what the scientific advice will be for 1980. So far it is not particularly encouraging.

Does the Minister accept, further to my representations on behalf of the processing industry on Monday evening, that I am equally worried about the future of the haulage industry should the intrusion of East European factory ships be continued?

As I said on Monday night, the catching side of the industry is indebted to anybody who will buy the fish that it catches. This applies to the mackerel referred to by the hon. Gentleman. This has not taken anything away from the haulage industry. It has merely been another outlet for the catching industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the way in which the Lanarkshire health board is administering the area under its jurisdiction.

The Lanarkshire health board inherited considerable problems in its area in 1974. I am satisfied that the board is tackling these as effectively as circumstances permit.

Will the Minister take note of the comments that I made during the Adjournment debate on Monday night? Will he make arrangements to meet urgently the Lanarkshire health board and ask it or his Department to investigate the serious worries expressed by people in the area of Stonehouse hospital?

I apologise to my hon. Friend for my inability to be present at Monday night's debate. I read the report of the debate with great interest. I intend to arrange to meet the Lanarkshire health board at an early date to discuss the problems raised by my hon. Friend and the other problems that the Lanarkshire health board is attempting to handle.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make an up-to-date statement on the operation of all National Health Service hospital, medical, ambulance and emergency services, in the interests of the health and well-being of citizens throughout Scotland.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement about the effect on patient care of industrial disputes in the National Health Service in Scotland.

Most hospitals are providing normal in-patient and out-patient services, although in some areas admissions are restricted to urgent cases and there are reduced laundry and catering facilities. Normal ambulance services are available for patients in most areas, but in Aberdeen only accident and emergency services are being provided.

Will the Minister give the House an assurance that he will take all necessary steps to ensure that the lives of those in hospitals throughout Scotland are protected?

I give that assurance. In all the circumstances the welfare of patients must come first.

What advice has the Secretary of State given to hospital authorities to enable them to cope with the serious disruption that may occur on Monday if the unions fulfil their promise to take further industrial action? Will the Secretary of State say that he will encourage volunteers to cross the picket lines and give of their services in hospitals, wherever they are required?

We are now dealing with situations locally. I am glad to say that the health boards are basically coping with the difficulties. If the situation were to become worse, with widespread industrial action, I should certainly consider sending them further advice. I do not think that is necessary now. They know the position and how best to cope with local situations as they arise.

Is the Minister aware of the desperate anxiety in Aberdeen, especially among the sick and elderly, about the fact that only an emergency ambulance service is now being offered? What later steps has the Minister taken to persuade the ambulance men to return to a full service as soon as possible?

Steps can be taken to persuade people, but at the end of the day I am not able to compel them to go back to normal working. The police are helping us to cope in Aberdeen. If the situation there became worse, we could still cope with it. I want to see normal services resumed everywhere. I am sorry that we have this difficulty in Aberdeen.

Will the Secretary of State accept that his initiatives with the four trade unions involved in this dispute in Scotland have met with widespread approval there? Will he continue to make it his first priority to obtain a long-term settlement of this dispute and ignore provocations, from wherever they come, that would exacerbate the existing situation?

As I made clear to the House yesterday, the industrial action that has taken place in Scotland so far has been limited compared with what has been happening in England. I hope that that situation will continue. I agree with my hon. Friend that it is important that the various negotiations should proceed as urgently as possible. In so far as I have an influence in these matters, it will be directed towards that end.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the workings of the Scottish liquor licensing laws.

Generally speaking, yes, but misuse of alcohol remains a most serious problem in Scotland, and my right hon. Friend has expressed his concern to licensing boards about the operation, in some areas, of the provision on regular extensions to permitted hours.

Will the Minister confirm that convictions for drunkenness have declined since the law was liberalised in 1976? Will he take this opportunity to advise his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary of the great improvements which have accrued to the people of Scotland because of the liberalisation of the licensing laws and suggest to him that similar advantages could come to the people of England and Wales if the English and Welsh laws were liberalised?

Far be it from me to get involved in a battle between England and Scotland, but I can confirm that drunk driving offences have indeed decreased since the new Act was introduced in 1976. No doubt my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will note what the hon. Gentleman has just said in his supplementary question.

Although, naturally, we are pleased that the number of offences concerned with drink has been reduced, will my hon. Friend keep a very close watch on the matter? There are public houses which open at 9.30 in the morning and remain open all day. While it may be that drunkenness, as reflected in offences, has declined, might it not be that the consumption of alcohol overall has increased? Does he agree that that ought to be taken into account?

We set up a survey before the new licensing Act was introduced, and the survey continued after its introduction. We are just analysing the early results from that survey, and therefore I do not have any evidence to suggest that the consumption of alcohol has increased. But the fears of my right hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes) are rightly expressed, and my right hon. Friend and I will keep a close watch on developments as time goes on.

In view of the increase in the practice of having bar lunches in Scotland, has the Under-Secretary of State made an estimate of the extent to which publicans and hoteliers have been willing to use the possibility of providing facilities for people to take children with them and to enjoy a bar lunch separate from the public bar?

This is one of the great disappointments of the Act. When it was introduced it was hoped that publicans would set up separate facilities so that children could be taken there. Our information to date is that only two establishments—one in Aberdeen and, I think, a provisional one in Kirkcaldy—have attempted to take advantage of that provision in the Act.

Does the Minister agree that the Edinburgh licensing board has been frustrating the intentions of Parliament by not insisting on an afternoon break, except in exceptional circumstances? What does he intend to do to try to ensure adherence to the original purposes which Parliament had in mind when passing this legislation?

It was not only Parliament which had the original purpose in mind. It was also the licensed trade. When we were putting this legislation together it was our intention to make the afternoon opening or closing discretionary. At the request of the licensing trade we made it mandatory. Now, lo and behold, we find a host of establishments represented by the licensing trade applying for all-day opening. My right hon. Friend has issued a circular to licensing boards expressing our concern about what has been happening in these applications.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what assessment he has made of the number of persons laid off work and of the value of production lost in Scotland as a consequence of strikes since 1 January 1979 to the nearest convenient date; and if he will make a statement.

The recent road haulage dispute led to an estimated peak of 34,000 persons being laid off in manufacturing industry in Scotland. In the past week the numbers have dropped steadily and now nearly all employees are back at work. A wide range of companies were involved and in many cases the lay-offs did not last long. An overall estimate of the value of lost production is, therefore, not possible.

Is not that a condemnation of the Government's industrial relations policy for Scotland? Is the Secretary of State aware that this situation has now extended to local government? Will he be more forthcoming than he was yesterday and tell us what advice he is giving to local authorities about the level at which they are to settle the claims that are being made?

This is a question about road haulage, and I answered the other questions yesterday.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons for the recent outbreak of strikes in Scotland and elsewhere is the intolerable situation that many workers, particularly in the public sector, are taking home less than £40 after a 40-hour working week? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to eradicate this problem is to have further discussions with the trade union movement about getting rid of low pay, instead of listening to some of the hypocritical gestures from Tory vultures perched on the Opposition Benches, such as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) who was making completely a false allegation recently about pickets in a squalid attempt to discredit the trade union movement?

Order. That is not the purpose of Question Time. I deprecate the description of hon. Members as either birds or animals.

If I called the hon. Gentleman a dove, you would not object?

I do not accept what my hon. Friend said in the part of his question which referred to take-home pay. It was a gross exaggeration of the general position in both the National Health Service and local authorities. But there is, of course, a problem of low pay, and the Government have made certain suggestions about how it should be dealt with, in both the public and private sectors. The trade unions also have a responsibility here. If we are concerned about the problem of low pay, it means that there has to be some restraint among people who are better paid, and at the moment that restraint is lacking.

In view of the damage that will be done by the strike of offshore oil construction workers, what action has the Secretary of State taken in connection with it and what proposals has he in mind for a possible settlement of that strike?

The hon. Gentleman will know that the Department of Energy, in particular, has been active in trying to find a solution to some of the problems arising from the dispute, which is unofficial. A lot of effort is going into trying to get a settlement, but I do not think that there is much that I can tell the House this afternoon.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that, as a result of the transport strike, the cash flows of companies in Scotland will be seriously affected in the next few months and that profitability during this year will definitely be affected, with consequential effects on employment and investment?

Yes, I made that clear while the dispute was on. With regard to cash flow, I gather that the Scottish banks have said that they will, in appropriate circumstances, try to help firms which are in difficulties short-term because of the strike. But there is always bound to be a residual long-term effect.

I accept what my right hon. Friend said about an onus on the higher paid groups to exercise restraint, but does he recognise that after these higher paid groups have failed to show that restraint, and after the Government have facilitated a high settlement in the lorry drivers' dispute by tampering with the instructions to the Price Commission, it is pointless to expect the National Union of Public Employees to advise its lower-paid members to settle for an immediate payment of 8·8 percent.?

I do not think that it is at all ludicrous. It is in the interests of every worker in this country that restraint should be exercised. If there are excessive settlements there will be a return to an inflationary position, which at the end of the day does more damage to the low-paid than to anyone else.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what further representations he has had about the provision of courses to enable Scottish art students and teachers to convert to the equivalent of CNAA honours degrees; and what action he intends to take.

I have received 55 letters on this subject. The art colleges in Glasgow, Dundee and Aberdeen are considering the question of the provision of bridging courses to enable holders of the Scottish art diploma to obtain honours degrees of the Council for National Academic Awards; the form and content of such courses would be subject to the approval of the Council.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware of the widespread dissatisfaction and anger among Scottish art students and art teachers because of their inferior status, with higher qualifications, as against English students and Scottish students who graduate in England? Is it not time that he met the Educational Institute of Scotland and the other body concerned to ensure that the position is cleared up as quickly as possible?

I understand that the right hon. Gentleman has the Adjournment debate on this subject on Monday night, so no doubt he will have another chance to raise it then. It was the teachers' side on the Scottish teachers' salaries committee which pressed this matter, supported by the management. In the circumstances of the 1967 Act, the Secretary of State had no alternative but to accept its recommendations.

Will my hon. Friend accept that I understand that this is a much more complicated matter than is suggested by the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart)? Nevertheless, I feel that every encouragement should be given to art teachers in Scotland, on an in-service basis, to increase the qualifications to make them equivalent to those which obtain in the higher grades of English courses.

That will be the intention of the meetings that are king place involving the three colleges, my Department, and, of course, CNAA. I shall do my best to ensure that we get these bridging courses so that graduates can achieve honours degrees.

Does it not follow from the Minister's answer that Scottish art students should apply to English colleges, from where, after a year's less study and fewer qualifications, they can return to Scotland and make substantially more money than Scots candidates?

It is a strange attitude on the part of the SNP that we should look to England for guidance. I repeat what I said, that it was the teachers themselves who pushed this issue at the Scottish teacher's salaries committee. I have discussed this with the Educational Institute of Scotland and the Scottish Secondary Teachers Association, and I have to accept that it was the teachers themselves who wanted this.

I welcome the measures which are being taken to sort out the problem, but will the Minister accept that the original difficulty sprang from the reluctance of the Scottish teaching profession and the Scottish art colleges to accept honours degrees and a differentiation between students within the Scottish art colleges, and that to that extent this is a self-inflicted wound?

In 1972 my Department encouraged the three colleges in Scotland to go for associateships leading to honours degrees. I am sorry that only one college in Glasgow accepted that.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what discussions he has held with the relevant authorities in Tayside concerning the gritting and salting of roads during inclement weather.

My Department's officers have been in frequent contact with the region's road engineers during the worst of the weather.

Is the Minister aware that the gritting and salting of roads on Tayside and elsewhere in Scotland was much more efficiently and speedily carried out before regionalisation? Does he, therefore, agree that the regions should be scrapped so that once again local people can provide local solutions to local problems?

Only one complaint was received by my Department about the gritting of roads in the Tayside region. That complaint was made by an official of the Road Haulage Association immediately after a very heavy fall of snow, when local authority staffs were already out working to clear and grit trunk and principal roads. I know from experience in the Strathclyde area that people had to cope with considerable difficulties in getting the roads properly gritted. To try to bring in the question of the future structure of local government with the question of gritting roads takes, I must say, a bit of a nerve.

Is the Minister of State satisfied that there is sufficient liaison between the regional and district councils on the clearing of footpaths and unadopted roads?

That is a matter to be settled by the regional and district councils. The regional councils in some cases act as agents of my right hon. Friend in respect of trunk roads, but we hope that the regions and districts can get together on these matters.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total number of people on industrial training courses in Scotland at the latest convenient date.

On 31 December 1978, 6,200 people were on training courses provided or supported by the Manpower Services Commission in Scotland. These figures do not include the very large number of people on training courses and schemes organised by industrial training boards or by employers as part of their normal training provision.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that, despite those figures and exceptionally high unemployment, a large number of employers are still unable to get the skilled labour they require? Does not that suggest that the present arrangements are not working? Will he, therefore, expand the training done in private industry, with Government assistance, to make sure that the right people are trained for the skills needed?

I wrote to the hon. Gentleman not very long ago on this subject and indicated that we were concerned about certain skill shortages in Scotland. This is a matter that my right hon. Friend and I have discussed with the Manpower Services Commission. Reports from the Commission indicate that it is conscious of the difficulties and is bringing in future programmes to deal with particular skill shortages.

Is the Minister satisfied that we are getting value for money for all these courses? Is he aware that some people going on these courses and training, for example, as boilermakers, are subsequently unable to get employment because they cannot get union cards from the boilermakers' union?

The example cited by the hon. Gentleman is not known to me. Of course, we appreciate that it is frustrating for young people trained in particular skills not to be able to get jobs. We all understand the economic difficulties. But I repeat that, with the help of the training services division of the Manpower Services Commission, we have been able to identify particular skill shortages and the House can be assured that the MSC will be putting on courses suitable for these groups.

Is there not a great contrast between the effort and money put in by the community to bring about training and the failure by private industry to expand in this direction? Is not this another example of failure to invest properly in British industry? Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is disgraceful in view of the record profits some companies have been making during the past few years of wage restraint?

Individual companies could do a bit more, but the Manpower Services Commission has been helpful to individual employers who want to train their people. I understand that in December 1978, 6,239 people in Scotland were taking part in such courses. We are working with the industrial training boards and with private companies to provide the best possible training.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he intends next to meet the chairman of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board.

I am to meet the chairman of the Board later today.

Will the Secretary of State draw the attention of the chairman to the Board's abysmal record in employment in Ross and Cromarty? Will he suggest to the chairman that, at the very least, he should reopen the area office at Dingwall, and that, at best, he should move the whole of the headquarters of the board to Dingwall, thus escaping the domination of the central belt, from which the Highlands have suffered for so long?

I have heard that before. I wish I could say that I had invited the chairman here to listen to that. The question of area offices is a long-standing grievance in certain parts of the area. I have no doubt that the chairman will take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. Whether he will act on it is a matter for him.

Will the right hon. Gentleman ask the chairman to explain why an EEC grant, for the stated purpose of extending electricity supplies in the Western Isles, will not make the slightest difference to the rate of the Board's programme?

I should want notice of that question, but I doubt whether it would make no difference at all.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the great concern throughout Scotland over the appointment of the former Mr. John Smith, first as a member of the House of Lords, secondly as Minister of State at the Scottish Office and now as chairman of the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board? Does he agree that it is about time that such public patronage appointments were made accountable to Parliament, as proposed in my Private Member's Bill during the last Session?

I have scored my hon. Friend off my list now. My information is that the appointment was very well received.

I have no wish to defend the right hon. Gentleman against his hon. Friend, but will he take notice of the important point that this organisation should have its headquarters in the Highlands? I am not a Dingwall nationalist. I suggest that Kirkwall would be a good place for the headquarters. In any event, it should be within the Highland area. To have it in Edinburgh is ridiculous.

That is a matter for the Board. I gather that the number of people employed at the Edinburgh headquarters is limited in comparison with the total number of the Board's employees. There is some advantage in having the Board's head office in Edinburgh because the area covered by the Board is not just the Highlands. It extends to a good deal more of Scotland. It is a matter for the Board where its headquarters are situated.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his policy towards outdated school buildings in inner city areas.

Following my Department's discussion paper on school accommodation, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the Department have set up a joint working party to consider proposals for a full review by the authorities of the potential of the existing stock of schools. In the meantime, authorities have been given increased provision for expenditure on school building improvement. It is for authorities themselves to decide how to make best use of the resources available.

Will my hon. Friend, in a spirit of comradeship, come with me to visit Tynecastle secondary school in my constituency and there take note of the frustrations of some highly committed teachers who have to watch while new buildings and modern teaching aids are lavished on every area outside the inner city whereas they are asked to work in the oldest buildings with the oldest aids to combat the effects of one of the worst multiple deprivation areas in the whole region?

My hon. Friend knows that the allocation of resources within the region is for the education committee. Nevertheless, if time allows, I am prepared to look at the position of this school, in concert with the regional council, with which I must work, to see whether we can achieve a satisfactory arrangement.

I acknowledge the problem raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook). But will the Minister not lose sight of the question of growing communities, such as Portlethen outside Aberdeen, where, as a consequence of oil and other developments, these new communities are growing up with virtually no facilities? Will he do his best to ensure that communities such as the one that I have mentioned are given facilities, both educational and otherwise, which are necessary if we are to have balanced communities in these areas of development?

I shall obviously have to consider that matter.

I have written to the hon. Gentleman about it.

I get many letters from hon. Members asking for more and more money for school building. Hon. Members will find that, compared with the previous three years, in the period 1979 to 1981–82 we are proposing to increase substantially the amount of money for school improvement. As a former Minister in the Scottish Office, the hon. Gentleman will know that roofs over heads and provision for basic needs are not subject to public expenditure constraints.

Does the Minister agree that there is a serious problem in inner cities where a combination of a fall in the population and a sharp fall in the birth rate has brought some school rolls in primary schools down to a very low level? Is the hon. Gentleman and his officials looking at Scotland as a whole in this regard? Does he agree that there could be a serious problem of school closures as a consequence?

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman understood my answer. We have set up a working party to look at the question of spare school accommodation. The first meeting of that working party will take place on 15 February. I understand the dilemma of falling school rolls. The Strathclyde region, in order to ensure that I do know, has chosen my area to close the first two schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the final arrangements made for the referendum on 1 March.

Yes, Sir.

Does the Under-Secretary of State agree that, as the "Yes" campaign in Scotland is being very successful, at the same time it would be extremely frustrating if too many people were not allowed or were unable to vote? Will he look again at the arrangements which have been made or promised for taking into account, for example, all the young people in the Highlands and Islands who will be away at university at the time of the referendum on 1 March?

I agree that the "Yes" campaign is being very successful and will be more successful.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that it is his intention to produce a final figure which will take account of the deductions from the total electoral roll before the referendum on 1 March so that we know exactly on what figure the 40 per cent. will be calculated?

I can confirm that my right hon. Friend will make an announcement to that effect before the referendum takes place.

Will the hon. Gentleman take an interest, with a view to being helpful, in the present shambles over the broadcasting arrangements for the referendum?

That is not a matter for me as the Minister responsible. I am tempted to say that I have an interest in all the present shambles, but I should prefer to leave it at that for the moment.

If my hon. Friend is to take into consideration the various anomalies which have arisen from the referendum, will he also take into consideration the anomaly of the Scots who live in England and Wales and in other parts of the United Kingdom who are not to be allowed to vote on this question, but who also have a view on the future of Scotland?

With respect to my hon. Friend, the House has decided who shall have the right to vote in the referendum. The House has made that decision, and that is the end of the matter.

In the interests of fair play, will the Minister reconsider his original reply to the question? I am sure that he and his right hon. Friend will want to ensure that the referendum is conducted fairly. As the question on the ballot paper refers to "Yes" and "No" votes only, how can he be satisfied with the present broadcasting arrangements? So far we have had two party political broadcasts on the "Yes" side. Unless an arrangement is made soon, the charge must be levelled at the hon. Gentleman, his right hon. Friend and other members of the Government that the whole referendum campaign is being rigged in favour of a "Yes" vote.

If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the day will ever dawn when the Tory Party has an influence on what is said in a Labour Party political broadcast, he is living in could cuckoo land. The parties are responsible for what they put out on their own party political broadcasts. In the democracy in which we live, the hon. Gentleman should not want to change that situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the cost to local authorities in repairs as a result of burst water pipes during the new year cold spell; and if he is satisfied that current building regulations ensure adequate means of turning off and draining water from empty dwellings.

The cost of repairs to local authority premises is a matter for the local authorities concerned and I have no estimate. Water installations used in connection with the public water supply are covered by local water byelaws. These require premises to be fitted with drain taps to prevent frost damage and require occupiers to turn off the supply and drain the fittings where practicable before vacating the premises.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, from reports of what happened in some of our cities during the cold spell, that is not happening? With knowledge of what happens in Canada from relations living there, may I ask whether it is not true that other countries provide much better facilities than we do for preventing frost damage in dwellings? Therefore, is it not high time that we altered our regulations to save this waste of money?

No. I think that we all appreciate the unusual circumstances with which various authorities were confronted during the recent cold spell. But the byelaws and building regulations are adequate. There may be a lack of education on the part of private owners or councils, but the facilities are there. They are required to be there. Perhaps people should make better use of them.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I beg leave to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are his plans for the future development of the Western infirmary, Glasgow.

The Greater Glasgow health board and Glasgow university have agreed that the phase II development originally planned for the Western infirmary site should not now proceed. A unified medical teaching campus and the acute beds required for the Western district, together with the services appropriate to a major teaching hospital—about 720 acute beds in all—will be developed on the Gartnavel site.

Why does the Under-Secretary of State keep on washing his hands like Pontius Pilate and hiding behind the Glasgow hospital board as if he had no responsibility for the proper development of hospital services in Scotland? Can he imagine a better set-up for a teaching hospital than existed with the Western infirmary next to the university? Surely any change from that is planning madness. Will he explain why he has concurred with that madness, or is he responsible for it?

I am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman. I do not wash my hands of this matter. In fact, I raised this matter with the Greater Glasgow health board on 4 October 1976. If acute and geriatric long-stay services are to be developed properly in Glasgow against the background of a declining population, they will have to be done in that way. That is why I agree with the joint decision of the university and the Greater Glasgow health board.

Does my hon. Friend accept that that will be welcomed in the west end of Glasgow? Does he agree that the long and almost intolerable delay in making a decision was caused by the most appalling medical politics? I am sure everyone is pleased that a decision has been made. May I suggest that perhaps part of the Western infirmary which will now not be fully utilised be made the new Partick health centre?

I know that my hon. Friend is very concerned about the Partick health centre. I, too, am concerned about a decent site for the Partick health centre, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his earlier comments. The future use of the Western infirmary will be subject to consideration by a joint planning team of the health board and Glasgow university, and we shall see what comes from that.

asked the Lord Advocate whether he will issue a code of conduct for sheriff officers.

I have no responsibility for the conduct of sheriff officers. A sheriff officer is an officer of the court and is answerable to the sheriff principal who appoints him and from whom he holds his commission.

In view of the grave public concern throughout Scotland about the recent case where three children were dragged from their beds at half-past four in the morning, and also the grave concern about the involvement, either directly or indirectly, of certain sheriff officers in private debt-collecting agencies, is it not about time that these people were told that that kind of activity is completely unacceptable and unethical and in danger of bringing the law into disrepute?

I do not accept that my hon. Friend has stated the facts accurately. It was children who were being collected and not a debt. Having said that, I would say that this was an unfortunate and regrettable incident. I agree with my hon. Friend to that extent. However, the sheriff principal inquired fully into the matter and was satisfied that an error of judgment had been made and that it would not be repeated.

I thank the Lord Advocate for that reply. That was a difficult case and one which, as he knows, I have been aware of for some years. The incident itself was not only regrettable but deplorable. I am glad of the assur- ances that I have had from the Lord Advocate's office and the sheriff principal that this will not happen again. May I add a rider to that? If sheriff officers are used—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."]

Order. The House is quite right. The hon. Gentleman should ask a question.

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. I should have said "In addition to my question". In cases such as this, involving deep social work matters, it would be valuable to have the presence of social workers at any such incident.

I agree with my hon. Friend that the incident was deplorable. However, I think that the matter has been adequately dealt with by the sheriff principal, whose concern it is. I note the second point put to me by my hon. Friend.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend in a position to instruct sheriff principals to give some guidelines to sheriff officers in carrying out their duties? For example, should they not be instructed to stop selling household effects on warrant sales at bargain basement prices which bear no relation whatsoever to the value of the person's property, and thereby stop adding to that person's misfortunes?

I am very much aware of the point that my hon. Friend has put to me, but that is not the matter which this question raises. A code of conduct related to an incident involving children is what I have been asked about. Perhaps I could put the matter more generally. It would be constitutionally quite improper for me, as a member of the Executive, to give instructions on such a matter to the sheriff principals. That would be a most extreme constitutional anomaly. If it were desired that the Executive should play some part in this, the constitutionally correct procedure would be for legislation to be introduced to that effect.

asked the Lord Advocate how many reports he has received since 1 January 1979 regarding alleged criminal offences by strike pickets; and on how many he intends to authorise prosecution.

asked the Lord Advocate how many incidents involving breaches of the law, in relation to picketing, have been reported to the Crown Office; and how many incidents involving alleged intimidation, in relation to picketing, have been reported to the Crown Office.

asked the Lord Advocate if it is possible to have lawful intimidation on the picket line in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Lord Advocate whether he will make a statement on the law of Scotland with regard to picketing.

I refer to a statement on the law of picketing in Scotland which I made on 31 January 1979 in answer to a written question by my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Hunter), where I stated that peaceful and orderly picketing in furtherance of a trade dispute, whether primary or secondary, is not a criminal offence in Scotland. But if what is done in the course of picketing involves a criminal element, such as assault, threats of assault, intimidation, extortion, or breach of the peace, then it constitutes a criminal offence and is accordingly unlawful. Intimidation covers threats of violence or other acts intended to induce a person through fear to act or not to act as he is lawfully entitled to do. Since 1 January 1979 I have received seven reports of alleged offences in connection with picketing, including three where there were allegations of intimidation. Criminal proceedings have been instructed in five of the seven cases. In one of these five the accused pleaded guilty and was fined £15

Order. I propose to call first those Members whose questions are being answered.

We are grateful to the Lord Advocate for making that statement on this serious matter. Is he aware that it has been admitted by Mr. Alex Kitson that, in many cases, his pickets were demanding money for the crossing of a picket line? Does he agree that that amounts to extortion? Will he give an assurance that he will seriously consider prosecuting any such cases that are brought to his notice?

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has put what Mr. Kitson said fairly. However, I shall respond to his wider question. As some of the cases where I have instructed proceedings involve extortion, these matters are sub judice and I had better make no comment on them.

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman prepared to condemn intimidation unequivocally, and is he aware that if he does issue such a condemnation it will be warmly welcomed throughout Scotland?

I am happy to respond to that invitation. I do condemn intimidation, whether by threat of violence or otherwise, as an indefensible inroad into personal freedom. I am sure that all responsible trade unionists would agree with that. But personal freedom includes freedom to withdraw one's labour and to make lawful protest against injustice.

Does the Lord Advocate agree that neither in his written reply to the hon. Member for Dunfermline (Mr. Hunter), nor in his reply today, has he made any reference to any concept of lawful intimidation? Does he agree that this extraordinary aberration invented by the Attorney-General has no place in the law of Scotland?

The idea of lawful intimidation originated not with my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General but with the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), who is not present. It is not terminology which I myself would choose.

Answer the question.

I shall come to that. Intimidation in the sense in which I used it in my original answer would not be lawful. However, some threats, such as to take someone to court to enforce one's legal rights, may be lawful.

Will my right hon. and learned Friend accept that all Labour Members take every case of extortion and intimidation extremely seriously, but that even more alarming are the persistent efforts by the Opposition to scaremonger on these issues? Does he agree that the suggestion by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) that there had been an admission by Mr. Alex Kitson that extortion took place in many cases is exactly the kind of exaggeration and scaremongering which cannot possibly be justified, and that no such admission has or could be made because it would not be justified?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The criminal law of Scotland provides strong sanctions against illegal picketing, which can attract heavy penalties. The figures which I gave in my principal reply show that the Opposition have greatly exaggerated the extent of the problem—no doubt for party political reasons.

Does the Lord Advocate agree that there is every distinction in the world between the right of an individual to try to persuade his fellow employees to withdraw their labour and the right of gangs of people, who are not connected with any particular place of work, to roam the country organising pickets? Since the law does not draw such a distinction at the moment, is not there a case for changing the law?

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman's first observation, but I do not agree with his latter comment. If he looks at section 7 of the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act 1875, he will see that intimidation by numbers is expressly covered.

Contrary to the Lord Advocate's last reply, does he not think that the small number of prosecutions is an indication not of the absence of intimidation but of its success? Will he encourage chief constables to make sure that policemen go to picket lines to ensure that not only vocal but silent intimidation is prosecuted?

I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman, as so often, has got the wrong end of the stick. The fact of the matter is that, out of seven cases reported to me, prosecutions have been instructed in five. That is a high proportion. I think that the significant figure is not the number of prosecutions—I am prepared to go some distance with the hon. and learned Gentleman that that indicates that there has been a failure. But the extent of the problem, the scale of the problem, is indicated in that, despite the fact that I made an early announcement, as soon as this period of industrial strife began, instructing chief constables to report at once any incidents reported to them and asking the general public, indeed, to report any such incidents, only seven incidents have been reported.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that today's edition of the Daily Telegraph contains a very interesting letter from a representative of the Chief Constables' Association, which is extremely upset about the type of propaganda that has come from the Opposition Benches, suggesting that the police have not done their job during the various disputes that have taken place? Is it not time that we stopped having this sort of exaggeration from Opposition Members and recognised the fact that during these disputes there has been very little trouble and very little violence? We ought to be pleased about that instead of attacking it.

I regret that I have not seen today's edition of the Daily Telegraph, but I very much agree with the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend.

On the point raised by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), does the Lord Advocate agree that the Law Society report on picketing, published the other day, showed a need for a change in the law to clarify the situation? On the point that the right hon. and learned Gentleman made about only seven cases and five prosecutions, does he accept that the business community and the public have no worries about the impartiality or justice of the Lord Advocate, or of the courts or the police, but that what they are concerned about is what may happen to them simply by reporting an incident and having the matter coming to court? Does the Lord Advocate agree that the problem in Scotland is certainly a great deal worse than is shown by the seven cases which have been reported?

I am bound to say that the hon. Gentleman himself reported a certain allegation to me in connection with Bellshill. That was proved to be entirely without foundation. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman about it.