asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from individuals and organisations concerning the operations which the National Coal Board proposes to carry out at Northop.

My right hon. and learned Friend has received a total of five letters over the past four years.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the great anxiety felt by people living in the village of Northop that the present planning permission may be taken to cover permission to start a mine in the immediate vicinity of the village, and that they will have no effective way of protesting against it?

I understand the great anxiety to which the hon. Gentleman refers but one has to try to strike a balance between the need to recover about 700,000 tons of steam coal, providing 50 additional jobs, and the environmental impact. The responsibility is principally that of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. If there were statutory objections, a public inquiry would of course be held.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are his statutory powers in relation to the liquor licensing laws in Wales.

My right hon. and learned Friend has no such powers.

I accept that, but the Secretary of State must have an interest in this question. Does the Minister agree that great benefits would accrue to the people of Wales, and indeed to tourists in Wales, if the recommendations of the Erroll report on liquor licensing were implemented? Will the hon. Gentleman try to persuade the Home Secretary to introduce such legislation?

The hon. Gentleman has raised a very sensitive subject. This is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the state of public transport in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

Like all hon. Members, my right hon. and learned Friend and I would like to see improvements. But we are satisfied that, within the resources available, a good service is being provided by the organisations concerned, including the county councils, which have a statutory duty to ensure that an adequate public transport system exists within their areas.

Can my hon. Friend assure us that the central Wales line, the Cambrian coast line and the Shrewsbury-Cardiff lines will be kept open? If they are to be kept open, will my hon. Friend prevent them dying through lack of maintenance?

I am aware that my hon. Friend feels very deeply about this matter. British Rail is responsible for operating the passenager rail network. There are no proposals to close any of the passenger lines in Wales.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the growing unhappiness of old-age pensioners about their ability to travel by public transport when they have no private transport available? In many places in my constituency they can do no more than go to the chemist four or five times a year because that uses up their allocation. Can this matter be reconsidered?

This is a real problem in many parts of Wales. I should stress that the Government have already made clear their desire that there should be an off-peak half-fare concession for pensioners as a standard on local bus services. At the same time, the level of concession is a matter for the local authorities, which receive financial assistance from the rate support grant.

Is not one of the most salient factors of our rail system in Wales that not one mile of rail is electrified? In view of present uncertainties about the future availability of oil, will the Welsh Office press, at the highest level, for speeding up electrification in the Principality?

The future electrifiction of the rail network is primarily a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. He is reviewing the situation with British Rail.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many advance factories were built in 1978; and how many are being proposed for the future.

Sixty two advance factories were completed by the Welsh Development Agency and the Development Board for Rural Wales in 1978. At 31 December 1978 a further 141 units were under construction. Work is already scheduled to start during 1979 on another 151 units. Last week I announced a new programme of factories to be built by the DBRW. I hope shortly to approve a further advance factory programme by the WDA.

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that encouraging reply. Will he keep up the programme of building advance factories to meet future demands of industrial developers? Will he have special regard to the general requirements of the valleys of South Wales—the mouths, the heads and the hearts of the valleys of South Wales —and in particular see that advance factories go up again in the Hirwaun industrial estate and the Aberamman lands estate, which is being developed by the WDA?

Certainly, the needs of the valleys were very much in mind in all the allocations that have been made. As regards my hon. Friend's special plea for his area, he will know that nine units are under construction in the Cynon Valley travel-to-work area, and a further four units are in the pipeline. I shall bear in mind not only my hon. Friend's needs but those of the valleys all over Wales in a future allocation that I hope to make shortly.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many factories announced 18 months ago for Gwynedd have not yet been started and do not appear to be ready to be started for several months? Is he satisfied that there is a sufficient controlling mechanism over the WDA to ensure that the programmes, once announced, are carried out?

I know the hon. Gentleman's concern, which I share. I discussed the matter with the chairman of the WDA only in the past few weeks. I am glad to say that by far the greater part of the factories programme for Gwynedd will be completed before the end of 1979. Already this year eight units at Holyhead have been started. There have been substantial difficulties in the area because of the difficulty of acquiring suitable land.

Whilst I welcome the efforts of my right hon. and learned Friend and his Department and of the WDA to make provision for advance factories in Wales, can he tell me, in the interests of Wales, whether there is any material evidence to suggest that following the setting up of the Welsh Assembly there would be "better employment opportunities for Wales", in the words of the chairman of the "Yes for Wales" campaign?

Matters for the general economy will remain at Westminster and will be the responsibility of the Secretary of State. That is made abundantly clear. But I very much hope that within its block grant the Assembly will so organise itself as to ensure that there will be from that quarter assistance to develop the economy generally as regards housing, roads and matters ancillary to the development of the economy as a whole.

Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm or deny the report in Saturday's edition of the Western Mail that the Development Board for Rural Wales has no more advance factories to let? Can he say whether the programme of advance factory building is running on time?

I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman shares my interest in the DBRW. As I was announcing and building advance factories over the years, the hon. Gentleman and others were criticising me for building factories and not being able to let them immediately. The DBRW was enormously successful in letting a vast number of advance factories last year. That is why, with that confidence, and knowing that my judgment was justified, I was able to announce a new tranche in excess of 24 factories. I announced a new programme of advance factories for Mid-Wales in the past fortnight, as the hon. Gentleman would know if only he had watched the press.

With reference to his reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that not one penny more will be given under the block grant to the Welsh Development Agency to create one job? Therefore, why does he not deny the spurious claims being made by the organisation that he supports?

As my hon. Friend knows, I am the last person to claim that I am not able to do my job. I have never suggested that there would be any excess money as a result of the Assembly. If he would do me the courtesy of listening to what I have to say, my hon. Friend would know that what I said was that the economy would be, and would remain, a matter for the Secretary of State and the central Government agencies—that is, the other Secretaries of State. But other matters which appertain to the economy, and are ancillary to it, such as housing, the building of roads and good hospitals, will be for the Assembly, and I hope that in that way it will help the economy.

We took a long time over that question. We shall have to move faster.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the intended relationship between the proposed Advanced Further Education Council for Wales, the Welsh Assembly, and the Secretary of State; and if he will make a statement.

The Education Bill now before the House provides for the Council to be appointed by the Secretary of State for Wales and to advise and make recommendations to him on the matters specified in the Bill. It also provides for his functions in this respect to be transferred to the Welsh Assembly Upon its establishment.

Is it not extraordinary that we are proposing to set up another nominated body, even if it be nominated by the Assembly in due course, when we are creating an Assembly partly to get rid of nominated bodies? Would it not be more rational to have no new Council but to give its powers to the Assembly, albeit leaving the Assembly the right to co-opt additional members to its education committee when dealing with advanced further education?

I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend developing his views upstairs in Committee when we reach the appropriate clauses, but I disagree with him. When the education functions in Wales and the Council pass to the Assembly, it will probably be for the better in Wales. I believe that a further education council for Wales will be needed whatever the result of the poll on 1 March.

As only six people turned up to hear the hon. Gentleman and his right hon. and learned Friend, when they came to Deeside, to explain what devolution would do for Wales, will he return there and explain how a Welsh Assembly will bring education closer to the people than it is now, when the function is exercised by the county councils?

Of course it could bring education closer to the people. If there were elected Assemblymen from various parts of Wales who were looking at the education problems of Wales, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be a better response from the localities to needs in the areas. I understand that when the hon. Gentleman holds his meetings he does not even get six people attending.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied that there exists generally in Wales a water supply of adequate standard to meet domestic and industrial requirements.

Yes, Sir.

Is the Minister aware that there is a great body of concern in Wales over the recent announcement by the Welsh Water Authority of a 15 per cent. increase in its charges, when the Government are advocating a 5 per cent. limit on wage increases? In view of this apparent taxation without representation, what do the Government propose to do to secure better control over this type of price increase?

I am not sure what that has to do with the standard of water supply, but I take the hon. Gentleman's point. The responsibility for water charges rests with the water authority. As the hon. Gentleman has probably seen, it has suggested that its percentage increase spread over two years would come within the guidelines. One factor is that last year there was a substantial reduction in water charges in Wales as a direct consequences of the Water Charges Equalisation Act, which we introduced.

Is my hon. Friend aware that one of the problems that afflict small businesses and the owners of shops is the very high charges in relation to the negligible amount of water that they use? Will he confirm that it is within the power of the Welsh Water Authority to install meters? Would he regard that as a sensible step forward in relation to industrial and commercial premises?

It is certainly within the authority's competence to install meters, but I am not yet convinced that to install a meter for every consumer in Wales would be in the best interest of all consumers. Undoubtedly, some commercial and industrial users which do not have meters now would benefit from their installation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the employment exchange areas in Wales where unemployement is above the Welsh national average.

In January 1979, 18 of the 40 travel-to-work areas in Wales had an unemployment rate above the Welsh average. With permission, I will publish details in the Official Report.

What prospects of future employment does the Secretary of State hold out for those areas? Will he be the main provider of employment, or will it be provided by the Assembly? Is he aware that there is much confusion in the Welsh mind as to who will be the provider of jobs—the Assembly, as propounded by the "Yes" campaigners, or the right hon. and learned Gentleman, as he puts forward in his own claim?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman, who I understood had been following the debates on the Wales Bill, has suddenly become so confused. I regret that. However, one day I shall take him aside and explain to him what has been explained time after time in debate, that matters for the economy remain at Westminster. If he does not know that now, he will never know it.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the pattern of unemployment tends to show some differences from the past, in that the success of the Development Board for Rural Wales indicates that there is a tendenecy for more and more employers to want to go to rural areas? There is, therefore, a change in the pattern. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to provide more funds for the Board?

The Board has had an increased amount of funds. It has been exceedingly successful. The fear put into the officials and the board of the DBRW by the Opposition has been a matter of great regret. They have recanted. But it is a deathbed repentence on their part. These important weapons—the WDA and the DBRW—are performing a real and important role in developing the economy of Wales. I give them every support.

Whilst totally accepting the view of my right hon. and learned Friend that improvements in the social and transport environment and the infrastructure of Wales will have an impact on the economic prospects of our country, will he say from where, under an Assembly, additional resources could be gained, without loss to those who are still desperately in need, to promote such improvements to a greater extent than he and local authorities try to do now?

I am sure that my hon. Friend followed the discussions in detail. He should know by now that the block grant will be negotiated on, I hope, a basis that will recommend itself to him, namely, the basis of need—need in the past and need in the future. That is the basis of the negotiation. I find it odd that my hon. Friend should be going around Wales saying that there will be a dimininution of £1,000 million in the moneys for Wales.

I never said that.

That is my understanding. If my hon. Friend did not say it, all the better.

Order. Hon. Members are taking too long. I am the only person who can say nothing.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current estimated cost of constructing and commissioning a 300–bed general hospital in Wales.

It varies according to site conditions and other factors but will not be less than £10 million.

Is my hon. Friend aware that that would be a small price to pay if such resources could be allocated for bringing much needed relief and a new service to the people of Gwent—specifically, my area of Gwent—and mid-Glamorgan? Does the Minister find it defensible, in those cicumstances, at a time of extremely limited resources, that roughly twice that amount will have to be spent evey year for the maintenance of an Assembly which the people of Wales do not want, whereas they desperately need new hospitals?

I know of my hon. Friend's interest in the district general hospital for his valley. I know that he and others of my hon. Friends will be meeting me about it in the near future. I look forward to a discussion on that issue.

Will the Minister explain how the underspend will be remedied under a Welsh Assemby and what the difference will be for the local authorities?

I am not sure that I can say why my hon. Friend needs a hospital in his valley. However, I can say why I think the underspend could be controlled better. If men and women are elected in their constituencies and come to Cardiff specifically with housing in mind, they will take an interest in such a way as to make sure that the technical officers who run the housing programmes do not underspend.

If there is a "No" vote on 1 March, is there any guarantee that my hon. Friend will get his hospital any sooner?

My right hon. and learned Friend and I know that if by some mischance Opposition Front Bench Members were transferred to the Treasury Bench there would be no prospects of getting such a district hospital.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to increase expenditure on those sectors of the Welsh economy as detailed in table 4.3 of the Government's expenditure plans, Cmnd. Paper No. 7439.

The Government's plans for expenditure are as shown in the table mentioned in the question.

In view of that and previous answers this afternoon, how can the "Yes" campaigners for the Welsh Assembly promise more jobs, better housing and much better health services, all of which involve greater expenditure? Will not that mislead the people of Wales?

I do not know. I have read a good many speeches on both sides in the campaign. I have seen far more fantasies than facts, and a great deal more heat than light. It is certain that within the block grant announced by my right hon. and learned Friend, the Assembly, as an elected body representing men and women from all over Wales, is more likely to accept and fix priorities in keeping with the needs of Wales.

Is my hon. Friend prepared to act an an umpire between my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, who said that the block grant would be assessed on the same basis, as at present, and my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mr. Jones), who said that there would be more hospitals after an Assembly was set up? How can we possibly get more hospitals and roads if the block grant is the same? How can we get more from the same, or even less?

I believe that the quality of decisions will be improved as a result of the democratic process.

The Minister must be joking.

On many occasions we have debated decisions and priorities decided by nominated bodies and bureaucracy.[Interruption.] Few hon. Members —including some of my hon. Friends who are bellowing from behind—accepted the priorities which I might personally have supported.

Is the Minister aware that the table of housing allocation of funds to Wales shows that Wales receives about £50 million less—on a per capita basis—than it would if it had the average for the United Kingdom? On a needs basis, the housing stock in Wales is older than that of the United Kingdom. Therefore, there is a greater shortfall. Does not that indicate a need for a better mechanism for allocating funds to Wales, which the Assembly would provide?

One thing stands out in the housing figures. I have reported it to the House on several occasions. For two consecutive years there were considerable underspends on housing in Wales. However, the figures referred to show that there would be an annual average increase in spending on housing of 5 per cent over the four-year period. Last year—and next year—the allocations for house building in Wales were such that all local authorities were told to proceed with their capital programmes intact. If they failed to do so it was their fault, because they failed to live up to the needs in their areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what increase has occurred in the capital cost of the buildings and the services for the Welsh Assembly since the original estimate was made.

The estimated cost of adapting and equipping the Exchange is £·5 million at 1978 prices. The estimate for additional office accommodation remains the same as given in the explanatory and financial memorandum to the Scotland and Wales Bill.

Is the Minister aware that some hon. Members have been unscrupulously misleading the Welsh public by asserting that impoverishment would be caused to them by the imposition of £20 million on them as a result of the Assembly? Will the Minister confirm the parliamentary answer which I received which said that the cost to the people of Wales and other parts of the United Kingdom would be about 1p per head per week—less than the cost of a packet of cigarettes per year and less than the cost of one pint of beer per year?

As I mentioned earlier, there have been far too many fantasies and far too few facts given on this subject. But certainly I confirm the parliamentary answer given to the hon. Gentleman on this subject. However, the additional cost is not £20 million, but £13·5 million. That figure is the fact. The other is the fantasy.

Is my hon. Friend able to give the House the costs of providing new accommodation for local authorities in Wales in the last three or four years? Will he explain to the House why there has been less fuss here about those costs than about the costs of the Assembly?

I do not have to hand the figures for local authority capital spending on new offices in recent years. What is a certainty is that whenever any local authority proposes such expenditure the Welsh Office is inundated with objections from those who believe that it is a wasteful use of public money.

Will the Minister confirm that if expenditure in Wales is worked out on a United Kingdom basis, based upon all families and people in the United Kingdom, it appears to be very little per head for the people of Wales? Will he also confirm that the £13·5 million running costs will come out of the block grant for Wales?

Yes, and the cost of the Exchange and that sort of thing will be taken into account in deciding the block grant. It is natural that one should work out the expenditure on a United Kingdom basis, because, after all, that is how the block grant itself will be decided —according to the need of the United Kingdom. Therefore, it is fair that the costs should likewise be allocated on a United Kingdom basis.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he intends communicating with the Gwent council on the issue of the implementation in Gwent of section 137 of the Local Government Act.

No, Sir. I have already made public my views on the use of this section for voting money to oppose the implementation of the Wales Act.

Is it not quite clear that this is a matter of the Secretary of State's failure to communicate despite his intemperate attack upon the stalwart Gwent Labour county councillors, who came into the movement before he had even considered joining it? Is it not because his statement is a complete bluff and that he lacks both the legal and the political power to coerce Gwent county council? Does he agree that when ratepayers are being called upon to bear grievous burdens—the £15 or £20 million which will come out of the block grant or will have to be found from somewhere—it is right that Gwent county council should spend a mere £1,000 in order to save them from the expensive folly in Cardiff which he is attempting to impose upon them?

Certainly I would not like to compete with my hon. Friend in making intemperate remarks. He has made some this afternoon.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken to reduce the detrimental effects of industrial action on the lives of the patients, nurses, doctors, administrators and others who work in hospitals in Wales.

Action to minimise the detrimental effects is the responsibility of individual health authorities, with which I am in daily contact. I have sought to sustain their efforts and those of all who are working to maintain the service. Last Thursday my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State met all the health authority chairmen, who believed that services would be maintained. I cannot praise too highly the efforts of the dedicated staff who are doing their utmost in difficult circumstances.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the industrial action taken in the hospitals of South Glamorgan, for instance, is probably having a much greater effect on nurses and on patients and their relatives than the unions anticipated when they reluctantly undertook these actions? Does he, therefore, consider it worth while calling the unions together to discuss with them and the area health authorities how best to remove the worst and most detrimental effects to patients?

I know that the hon. Member is concerned about this matter. I think that we must move in the best way for the whole of the service, and for patients in particular. From my intervention in his speech in the House last week, the hon. Gentleman will know that while negotiations are taking place nationally, of which I am fully cognisant and to which I am a party, it is best for local matters to be discussed and dealt with locally. The Opposition spokesman, wrongly informed as he was, joined issue with my right hon. Friend for having intervened locally. That is not the best way of doing it. I am keeping in very close touch. I am watching the situation very carefully. I shall do whatever is necessary.

Whilst we are concerned about the industrial action, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider that the low-paid workers in the Health Service have a case? Has he seen the report today by doctors who are expressing deep concern about the effect that an Assembly will have on the Health Service? There is a feeling that if an Assembly is created and the Health Service is administered by that Assembly we shall move away from Nye Bevan's desire to have a uniform Health Service for the whole of Britain.

Order. The hon. Gentleman is moving on to a totally dfferent question. This question concerns industrial action in Wales. There will be a further opportunity to discuss the other issue.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the people of Cardiff and Aberavon are having to bear a grossly unfair penalty for having elected his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and himself?

I thought that the hon. Gentleman had a useful contribution to make. Obviously that is not so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans have been approved by the Welsh Development Agency for further industrial development in Anglesey; and if he will make a statement.

I have already asked the Agency to submit a further programme of advance factory building for my approval. In considering the appropriate balance of provision throughout Wales, I shall bear the needs of Anglesey fully in mind.

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend for that prospect. However, will he bear in mind that the recent decision not to proceed with the expansion of Anglesey Aluminium indicates that some special effort is needed to bring new employment to the island, in view of the present unsatisfactory level of unemployment?

I know how hard my right hon. Friend worked for the expansion, and I know the disappointment that we all share that it is not to come about. However, the company is still seeking other ways of expanding its operations. My industry department is in touch with the company and has indicated that the Government would consider giving financial support to any viable project that the company may propose to establish downstream activities in Anglesey.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons he appointed to public bodies in Wales in the past 12 months.

I had sole responsibility for 225 such appointments in the period 1 February 1978 to 31 January 1979.

Can my right hon. and learned Friend claim to know all these people he has appointed? Can he think of a better way of running these public authorities?

Even though I traverse a great deal of Wales, I cannot admit to knowing everyone. I think that there is a better way. The best way of all is to ensure that, where possible, decisions are taken not by nominated bodies but by democratically elected people.

How much do these quangos cost annually? To whom are they democratically accountable, and to what extent?

Speaking from memory, I think that they expend about £400 million to £500 million each year. However, if the Assembly comes about it will control the expenditure of about £1,400 million, including the work of the nominated bodies.

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that even if we have an Assembly—which is most un- likely as things stand, in view of the way in which the campaign is going—there will still be nominated bodies, or does he think that the jobs of those bodies will be taken over by the Assembly?

I am sorry that I must continue to try to educate the hon. Gentleman, even after the prolonged discussions that we have had on the Wales Act. Of course it will be possible for some of these bodies to remain. It will also be possible for the Assembly to subsume some of these bodies. As regards those that it can subsume, it will be a matter for the Assembly to ensure the best way of conducting those functions, be it through a body or directly through the Assembly. However, I hope most fervently that as many as possible of these bodies will come under direct democratic control.

Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that the latest opinion poll in Wales confirms all the other opinion polls in saying that there will be a "No" vote? In view of the fact that there may well not be an Assembly after 1 March, will my right hon. and learned Friend address himself to the problem of nominated bodies, bearing in mind that there are those of us who are opposed to an Assembly who have put up alternative suggestions whereby there could be greater democratic accountability by nominated bodies?

I enjoin my hon. Friend not to put too much faith in polls—no more than the Conservative Party should. One of the encouraging features of the latest poll was the increase in the Labour vote, contrary to some other polls. We should be encouraged by that. I am glad that my hon. Friend wants to ensure that nominated bodies are controlled. This is of the essence of the case which I am putting forward about the need for more democracy in Wales, and I look forward to that.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what are the Government's current intentions regarding the redeployment of Civil Service jobs in the light of the Hardman report.

The Government remain committed to their programme of Civil Service dispersal to the locations already announced.

Is not the position that the Government have promised 5,500 jobs to Glasgow without knowing from where the jobs are coming? Is it not a major scandal that civil servants have had this threat hanging over them for two years, that the move might cost as much as £500 million, and that in practice the Government have decided to drop the proposal? Will they now admit that they have dropped the proposal?

The Government's dispersal programme is going ahead as envisaged. If there are civil servants who are anxious about their position in the Civil Service dispersal programme, they can consult their controlling officers to discover whether their Departments are involved. But the dispersal programme is going ahead.

Is my right hon. Friend concerned about the apparent ease with which senior civil servants can redeploy themselves into lucrative jobs in private industry? Does my right hon. Friend agree that there should be a bar on senior civil servants joining companies which have received large amounts of taxpayers' money from Government funds? Will he publish in full the present rules and regulations relating to the seeking of jobs in private industry by civil servants?

Before the Minister replies, I might point out that I allowed the supplementary question although it is not related to the original question on the Order Paper. The Minister may take that as a tip.

I am grateful for your protection, Mr. Speaker, but I give the House the undertaking that I shall publish and make available the rules under which senior civil servants take up such appointments.

Will my right hon. Friend put it to the Government that the Hardman report is completely out of date in today's circumstances? Is he aware that it was conceived at a time when there was a tremendous disparity between London and the other regions, but that today parts of the borough of Lewisham, for example, have unemployment rates of more than 10 per cent. and far worse unemployment than exists in some parts of the development areas? Will my right hon. Friend look especially at the dispersal of the office of the Government Chemist to Cumbria, which is the biggest piece of nonsense in the Hardman report, and will he see whether he can make some arrangements to redeploy back into areas of severe unemployment in London some of the jobs dispersed as a result of decisions taken many years ago?

I appreciate fully my hon. Friend's anxiety about the job prospects of his constituents in Lewisham. However, at present 1,900 Civil Service jobs are vacant in London. Civil Service dispersal makes a real contribution to solving the structural economic difficulties which exist in provincial areas.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the provision being made for Mr. K. Brown, details of which have been sent to him by the hon. Member for Twickenham.

I have studied very carefully the facts of this very sad case, and I am confident that Mr. Brown has received, and will continue to receive, the maximum benefits that the rules of the Civil Service pension scheme provide for cases of this nature. However, in addition, I have also undertaken to seek advice on the legal position generally and on the amount of any ex gratia additional payment that it might be proper to make from public funds.

I thank the Minister for that answer, as far as it goes. However, since it was whilst serving his country abroad as a Foreign Office official in Swaziland that Mr. Brown's appendicitis was mis-diagnosed and, as a result, he had one leg amputated above the knee and a major internal operation, leaving him permanently crippled and with his life virtually ruined, do the Government accept in principle that he should be paid a very generous lump sum by way of compensation?

Again, I emphasise that I have a great deal of sympathy with this particularly distressing case. I hope that hon. Members in all parts of the House will be assured that additional compensation will be considered carefully and compassionately. However, I cannot prejudge the legal advice which I am seeking. Therefore, I cannot make any firm commitment at this stage about the amount of any additional payment.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for the concern that he has expressed? Is he aware that Mr. Brown's union is very concerned about this case, which, as has been made clear, is a very tragic one? It has dragged on for a very long time. Therefore, will my right hon. Friend try to expedite his inquiries so that a generous settlement can be made as soon as possible?

Certainly I undertake to proceed as urgently as possible with this case.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects next to meet representatives of the Civil Service trades unions.

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what recent meetings he has had with Civil Service trade union leaders; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal and I met last week with representatives of the non-industrial Civil Service unions. Frequent contact is maintained with representatives of all the Civil Service trade unions.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many civil servants and, indeed, other public service workers, such as nurses and teachers, are complaining that their wages have fallen behind those of comparable workers in the private sector mainly because of the excessive wage restraint of recent years? In view of the fact that their complaints are backed by the independent findings of the Pay Research Unit, is it not a dishonest farce for the Government to have agreed to reconstitute the Pay Research Unit unless they also give a firm commitment to implement its findings from April of this year?

The Government's position in regard to the pay of the Civil Service has not been wholly ungenerous. In 1975, on the basis of a Pay Research Unit report, we conceded pay increases of up to 30 per cent. In all stages of the Government's pay policy since then—in 1976, 1977 and 1978—civil servants have received the maximum available under those phases of Government pay policy. We have reactivated the Pay Research Unit. We are now processing the reports emanating from the unit.

:Does my right hon. Friend accept also that those civil servants who form the bulk of the Civil Service trade unions are in the relatively low-paid category, such as those who serve behind DHSS counters, some of whom receive less in wages than they are paying out—and that is not to make an argument for reducing unemployment benefit, but rather the other way? Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is talk of industrial action? I suppose that that is the last thing the Government want at present.

Let me take up one phrase that my hon. Friend used. He described certain groups of civil servants as "low paid". This will be established only when we have processed the Pay Research Unit reports. There are 450 of those reports, the last of which was updated on 7 February. We are only in the process of examining those reports at the moment. This is by no means the time to be talking of industrial action.

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear when next he meets Civil Service trade union leaders that Government public relations officers are not available to them for the purpose of advising them on ways of busting the Government's pay policy? Does he regard this as a suitable opportunity to comment on the most disturbing press reports which have appeared about the activities of a certain public relations officer in the DHSS?

I appreciate the point which the hon. Gentleman is making about my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Security, who has responsibility for the decisions which were taken in that case.

Although my right hon. Friend needs more time to process the reports, is he not in a position to say what broad level of pay increases is represented by the PRU findings? Will he give us an assurance that he will accept the findings and not try to tie the Civil Service to a 5 per cent. limit, which would be totally out of line with the findings of the PRU?

My hon. Friend suggested that I was seeking more time to process the reports. I am not. We are going through the normal process of negotiation. We reactivated the PRU towards the end of 1978 and it has been collecting the evidence of fair comparisons. We are now processing that evidence. The operative date for the next pay settlement is 1 April. Let us complete the negotiations before anyone suggests a mad leap into industrial militancy and conflict.