asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what study he has made of the fresh evidence of international complicity in the Irish Republican Army terrorist conspiracy.

I am studying the available evidence very carefully and I can assure the House that we are ready with our partners abroad to take appropriate action against any such international terrorist links.

Will the Secretary of State assure us that he will not discount the assertions made by the various terrorist gangs? Will he ensure that Her Majesty's ambassadors in the countries concerned are fully briefed so that they are in a position to offer accurate advice to the Governments of those countries? Perhaps he will enlist the aid of his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to persuade those Governments to assist in stamping out terrorism in all its forms.

The best answer that I can give is "Yes, Sir"

Will the Secretary of State inform the House whether he has any evidence that the Provisional IRA had a recent conference with the Basque terrorists in Spain?

No, Sir. I cannot tell the House that we have any direct evidence of that. However, there is considerable co-operation between the Governments of the countries affected. All evidence is carefully studied and acted upon where possible.

In view of my right hon. Friend's decision on Monday to proscribe the Irish National Liberation Army, may I ask whether there was any evidence of international collusion or contacts with that body? Did those contacts in any way influence his decision?

Yes, Sir. There are indications that the Irish National Liberation Army is acting in concert with other terrorist groups throughout the world. That influenced what we decided to do on Monday.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province particularly along the border.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security in the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the security situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

Since I answered a question on this subject on 24 May, the security forces have maintained their pressure on the terrorists. Seven people have been charged with five murders, including four men charged with the killing of a Reserve constable in Londonderry on 20 May, one charged with the shooting of a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment in Belfast on 6 June and others charged in relation to sectarian murders in Portadown on 31 March and Belfast on 9 June. Six people have been convicted for murder and five for attempted murder.

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for those figures giving successes by our security forces. May I press him a little further about his talks in Dublin? When he came back, I think I am right in saying that at a press conference he suggested that the Criminal Jurisdiction Act might be operated more profitably than it had been operated in the past by Governments of both parties. Can he say what was in his mind? Does he consider that the Garda and the RUC might be allowed to cross the border to interrogate suspects?

Yes. I concentrated, in what I said publicly after the meeting, on the Criminal Jurisdiction Act, because it seemed to me that this was the area in which we were most likely to make progress. The courts in the Irish Republic have consistently refused to extradite people for political offences, although the Government of the Republic expressed their willingness to operate the Criminal Jurisdiction Act. It seemed to me that this was the most likely way in which to make the kind of progress we need.

rose—

I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered. I should be grateful if questions could be brief.

Will my right hon. Friend tell the House how many people have been charged with terrorist offences in the Province in the past 12 months, how many people have been convicted of terrorist offences, and whether he is optimistic about the trend?

In the past 12 months, 711 people have been charged with terrorist offences, and I am glad to be able to tell the House that an even greater number of people have been convicted in that period, although not necessarily the same people. In the past 12 months, 876 people have been convicted of terrorist offences. There is cause for cautious optimism that the establishment of the rule of law is making progress if this number of terrorists is being apprehended, brought to trial and convicted.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that within three weeks all hon. Members will have to make an agonising personal decision on the subject of capital punishment? Will he make it his business to try to give to the House his view and that of the leaders of the security forces on whether the restoration of capital punishment would help the position in the Province?

I think that the House knows my personal views well enough from the number of occasions on which this matter has been discussed in the years that I have been here. I shall take note of my hon. Friend's suggestion and be most willing to give guidance to hon. Members on the possible effects on terrorism of a change in the law.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is necessary to stop the flow of arms to the terrorists? Will he tell us how many arms have been captured in the past year and their countries of origin? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the best solution to the problem with the Irish Republic would be an extradition treaty? Will he press on the Irish Government the fact that they should sign the European convention on terrorism?

There were two people wounded in the incident to which the hon. Gentleman refers. One of them is currently serving a sentence of six months' imprisonment in the Republic and the other is at home.

Does the right hon. Gentleman recall telling me last week that 19 serious incidents had occurred in my constituency, after which the terrorists concerned returned to the Irish Republic? Did he raise the matter of those statistics with Mr. O'Kennedy? Is he aware that Mr. O'Kennedy and his security forces would know the identity of the men who committed those atrocities? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the two men who were wounded were wounded not by the security forces but by a civilian in my constituency, after which they received medical attention in a hospital in the Republic and were then allowed to go free, following which one of them was arrested and charged with a motoring offence?

All those matters were discussed in my meeting with the Ministers of the Republic. As I have said already, there is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of the Ministers of the Republic, that this cross-border traffic makes things much too easy for terrorists. That is why I was delighted to hear from the Government of the Republic that they had established a task force specifically devoted to the terrorist threat in the border areas. This kind of co-operation between the RUC and the Garda, and between the two Governments, seems to be far and away the best method of getting on top of the problem.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Ulster people, who are being slaughtered daily, are sick of the fruitless talks which go on between Westminster and Dublin? Will he take action to end the pretence whereby the Government of the Irish Republic claim to be taking effective action against the IRA terrorists there, and force that Government to act, as any friendly neighbouring State should, to end the menace of the evil men who operate from the safety of the Irish Republic?

I, too, am sick of this and wish to do anything I can to bring it to an end, as I have repeatedly said. At my meeting with the foreign affairs Minister of the Republic and the Minister of Justice, both expressed their determination to eradicate terrorism, which they recognised as being a threat not just to the people of Northern Ireland but to themselves. They have taken certain steps and are considering others. As I said before, I intend to follow this up with determination. We shall see what happens.

Will the Secretary of State let us know when he expects progress to be made on the matter of the Criminal Jurisdiction Act? When will the Dublin Government be in a position to come to a decision on that issue?

I do not know what course the debate on capital punishment will follow. In answering my hon. Friend's supplementary question. I was reminding the House of my own personal views, which have been expressed consistently over 24 years. It will clearly be necessary during that debate for the effect on terrorist activity of a change in the law to be made clear. I would not like to say at this stage that I shall be doing it—it may be somebody else—but clearly the House will need that advice, and I am certain that it will get it.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the Rowland report in respect of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will publish the conclusions of the Rowland Commission.

The report of the investigatory Commission into Northern Ireland Housing Executive contracts, chaired by Judge Rowland, was laid before Parliament today as a Command Paper. I have placed in the Library of the House a copy of a statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on the report, and additional copies have been sent to all Members from Northern Ireland. The report shows that substantial sums of public money have been wasted. Action has already been taken to correct the errors that were made and further action will be taken to tighten control over housing expenditure in Northern Ireland.

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Bearing in mind the Commission's comment that money may have found its way into the hands of the IRA, may I ask how much of the £21 million Housing Executive deficit, which was wiped out by Her Majesty's Government, is estimated to have gone to the IRA through the two Provisional IRA building companies which were set up with the assistance of the former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Rees)? Secondly, will the Minister take action against those civil servants in the Housing Executive and the Department of the Environment who were involved in the duplication of a £2 million payment which went, first, for maintenance work and, secondly, for rehabilitation work on precisely the same properties?

On the latter point, the Commission found that many things had gone wrong in the Housing Executive, but it did not find that they had gone as badly wrong as is suggested by the hon. Gentleman. If the hon. Gentleman has any further evidence, I should be glad to receive it.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that, intentionally or unintentionally, the Rowland Commission was not given the wide-ranging powers by the last Government which it should have been so that it could investigate the truth? When my hon. Friend looks at the conclusions of the Rowland Commission, will he also look very carefully at the report by two policemen from my area in the West Midlands, who investigated the matter thoroughly and found that, through the agency of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, money had been diverted from the taxpayer to firms set up by the IRA, actually in Long Kesh, and that without doubt money went into IRA hands?

I am grateful for the enthusiasm with which my hon. Friend has pursued over the years these serious wastages of public money. It is absolutely wrong that any public funds, directly or indirectly, should be paid to paramilitary organisations, and we intend to take firm action to see that it never happens again.

Is it not clear from this report that the whole concept of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive was founded upon propaganda? The sooner we get rid of this monstrosity the better.

I do not accept that. The Northern Ireland Housing Executive has had to face many difficulties since it was set up, but, by and large, it has discharged its duties well.

Will the hon. Gentleman accept it from me when I say that any steps which are taken to tighten up the administration and thus prevent the misuse of public funds will be welcomed by us? Secondly, will he take this opportunity of restating what he put far too strongly, namely, that the conclusion of the Rowland report was that money may have found its way, indirectly, into the hands of the IRA? There is certainly no evidence, according to the statement by his right hon. Friend, that it did so. Thirdly, will he re-emphasise the fact that the Rowland Commission found that the Housing Executive had done a very good job in difficult circumstances?

I just made that point, I hope. The circumstances were very difficult. The circumstances in which the Housing Executive operates are still very difficult. Alas, it is plain from the evidence in the Rowland report that a substantial sum of money probably found its way, indirectly, into the hands of paramilitary organisations, and we intend to see that that does not happen again.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he proposes to take to bring the law governing use of the totalisator in Northern Ireland into line with that for the rest of the United Kingdom, and what he estimates would be the revenue effect of doing so.

This matter is currently being considered as part of a general review of the law in Northern Ireland relating to all forms of betting, gaming and lotteries. Reliable estimates cannot be made of the revenue effects of possible changes in the law.

Will the Minister seriously consider taking this single and separate matter by itself and dealing with, it promptly, since, without the use of any public money or the establishment of a board, it would enable those who are ready to do so to go ahead now?

The difficulty of proceeding with the legalisation of totalisators in advance of completing a general review is that most of the matters which are the subject of the review are regarded by those directly concerned as being equally pressing. Therefore, I do not consider it right to single out one particular item, for priority treatment.

If laws are to be aligned, why should not priority be given to laws relating to fundamental human rights, such as homosexuality, abortion, and fundamental canons of the criminal law such as conspiracy? Why should this appallingly subsidised Province, at its own whim—

Order. The hon. Gentleman should put a question on the Order Paper. This question is about the totalisator. It is unfair to try to get another question in which is unrelated to that subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has for providing increased opportunities for young people in Northern Ireland to secure training in skilled employment.

I have made it my business to visit as many as possible of the places in Northern Ireland providing opportunities for youth training. I am convinced of the usefulness of the work which is being done and see no need to alter present arrangements.

I am sure that the Minister is aware that when young men cannot get jobs, especially in the circumstances existing in Northern Ireland, they become involved in violent mischief. When they obtain dead-end jobs, they become involved in moonlighting and violence. Is he aware that, according to my information, the opportunities in Northern Ireland for young men to be trained in skills are inadequate.

I am well aware of all that my hon. Friend has said. I have been singularly impressed by the schemes in operation in Northern Ireland, though that is not to say that there is no room for improvement. We are constantly looking at this issue.

Is the Minister aware of the disquiet that was announced recently by the Irish Congress of Trades Unions regarding the Government expenditure cutbacks? This will have a serious effect on any organisations which are designed to help young people. Will the Government rethink any cutbacks which they have proposed in this direction?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the cutbacks have no detrimental effect upon training schemes.

The hon. Gentleman says that he sees no reason to change existing arrangements. Will he have regard to the June report of the Northern Ireland economic council in which it was said that apprenticeship and similar schemes should be put on a more stable and permanent basis? Will the Government consider the provision of permanent schemes now to help in the creation of apprenticeships in Northern Ireland?

The hon. Gentleman is well aware of the Government training schemes in Northern Ireland and the number of people who go through them. Naturally we shall always consider improving what we have there at the moment.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the estimated effects of the proposed reduction of £35 million in annual public expenditure.

This information was given in a statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on 13 June, which received widespread publicity in Northern Ireland. I am sending a copy of it to the hon. Gentleman.

In the few weeks that the hon. Gentleman has been in his present position has he learned that there is a widely-held belief in Northern Ireland that when Britain sneezes the Six Counties catch a cold? Does he accept that the lengthening of dole queues, which are already the longest in the United Kingdom, and a reduction in the opportunities for education and jobs for school leavers is no way to bring about a solution to the tragic problems of Northern Ireland? Can he assure me that his right hon. Friend will now impress upon his Cabinet colleagues the need to maintain the special status of Northern Ireland?

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that that is exactly what my right hon. Friend is doing.

In view of the very high rate of unemployment in the Province, will my hon. Friend make sure that any cuts in expenditure will hit employment projects as little as possible?

I am glad to give my hon. Friend that assurance. We have taken particular care not to take the soft option of making cuts in capital construction programmes. We have avoided that.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to make progress towards the re-establishment of a devolved, democratic Parliament and Government in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he intends to take a political initiative in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects next to meet leaders of the political parties in Northern Ireland.

As was stated in the Gracious Speech, the Government's aim is to seek an acceptable way of restoring to the people of Northern Ireland more control over their own affairs. I do not think that this is best pursued by political action of a dramatic kind. The arrival of a new Government, with a full parliamentary term ahead of them, has itself changed the situation. I have begun talks with the leaders of parties representing a wide range of opinion in Northern Ireland, and I intend to continue these talks in a determined search for a satisfactory way forward. This is an initiative in itself, and it has already begun.

In view of the Secretary of State's comment to the House on Monday that solutions can best be found by the people of Northern Ireland, is he prepared seriously to consider establishing a convention in Northern Ireland, with the result of that convention to be put to the people by way of referendum?

I am not yet persuaded that this would be a helpful step to take. At present there seems no reason to suppose that a new convention would produce proposals any more acceptable—either in Northern Ireland or in this House—than the 1975 convention.

Is the Secretary of State aware that next month the British Army will have been in Northern Ireland for 10 years, yet the bloodshed, slaughter and killing still go on? The only good thing about which we can rejoice is that we have seen the end of Stormont. Does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it is high time that some political initiative was taken to try to solve this intractable problem, for example, by meeting the parties in Northern Ireland and the representatives of the Government of the Republic? Whether it is dramatic or undramatic political action, I believe that some political initiative should be taken.

In my main answer I attempted to get across to the House that an initiative is being taken. I am taking it. I believe that patient negotiation, with a determination to move forward, is the best way of achieving it. I am talking to leaders of all political parties in Northern Ireland, and I hope very much that between us we can make progress towards what we all want, which is more control in Northern Ireland, by the people of Northern Ireland, over their own affairs.

Will the Secretary of State give a categorical assurance that the Government will reject any proposal that the problems of Northern Ireland can be solved simply by more military oppression and a return to the old Stormont system of government? Will the right hon. Gentleman try not to be too influenced by the fact that some of the most extreme elements of the Unionist extremists have chosen to sit on the Government Benches?

It is no longer a matter for me where hon. Members sit in this House. I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is not a solely military solution to this problem. The British Army needs to be present in the Province as long as the police require the Army's support to maintain law and order. It will remain there as long as that is necessary. However, I quite accept that there is no purely military solution. That is why I am having these political discussions with party leaders.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on ruling out the sort of instant initiative that leads to disheartening fiasco. Will he start the process of reviving local democracy by examining the functions of district councils and the composition of statutory boards?

Yes. This is one of the ways in which progress could be made, but it is not the only way. There are a great many others. In my discussions, which I intend to continue, my object is to find progress that is generally acceptable. Unless we can find a way forward which is acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland, whether they be of the majority or minority population, that is not progress. Therefore, it is with that in mind that I am having these continuing and private discussions with the leaders of political parties.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all political parties which enjoy any significant electoral support in the Province are represented in this House, and that he can and should maintain constant contact and consultation with those parties and their leaders in this House?

Yes.

Will the Secretary of State tell the people of Northern Ireland today from the Dispatch Box that the internal affairs of Northern Ireland are a matter between the Government, this House and the people of Northern Ireland and have nothing to do with negotiation with the Dublin Government?

The future of Northern Ireland is a responsibility of the Government and this House. I made that clear in my discussions with the Government of the Republic when I was there last week, and that is wholly accepted. Of course, they are interested in what happens, but the responsibility remains here.

With regard to acceptability, does the Secretary of State recall that it was the malpractice which took place in local authorities throughout Northern Ireland which was largely responsible for the birth of the civil rights movement? Will he accept from me that any attempt to grant further powers to the existing local authorities in Northern Ireland will be fiercely resisted by the minority population?

The hon. Gentleman's question illustrates most clearly that the answer to this problem is not all that simple.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will convene a meeting of all the legal political parties in Northern Ireland along with the Government of the Republic of Ireland to discuss the present situation in Northern Ireland.

I have made it clear that I am willing to talk to any responsible body or party which has an interest in achieving a peaceful settlement but, for the time being, I believe that such talks are likely to make more progress if they take place on a bilateral basis.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, important though security is, it is depressing that most questions asked in this House are purely about security, particularly when everyone knows that any solution must be a political one? I gather that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with that. Does he also agree that the Ulster Unionists in this House merely want to return to the old Stormont regime, although they know that what Stormont did precipitated all that is happening now—[Interruption.] I appreciate that Unionist Members do not want to listen to this, because it is relevant—[Interruption.] I gather that I am making my point. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that this question differs from the others in the sense that it wants to bring together all legal political parties, and the Government of the Republic, so that they can talk—not independently of one another—and say exactly what they feel? Would not that be a good beginning to a political solution of the problem?

First, I am not responsible for what questions are asked in this House. I am responsible only for the answers. Secondly, the House was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman's views about the Ulster Unionist Party. Thirdly, I do not believe that at this time a round table discussion is the best way of moving forward. As I said in my main answer, while the time may come for that I do not believe that it has yet arrived, and I prefer to pursue the Government's objectives through bilateral discussions.

The Secretary of State said in answer to a previous question that there was no military solution to the crisis in Northern Ireland. Does he not realise that that appalling statement will have a serious effect on Ulster people who believe that the fight in the Province is between the forces of law and order and the Provisional IRA terrorists who are against any kind of political progress?

I was trying to convey to the House that the military solution is not the only one. We must try to beat the terrorists, but when we have beaten them there will still be a political difference between law-abiding and peaceful people in Northern Ireland which must also be resolved. There will be no let-up in our efforts to beat the terrorists, but the discussions about the political future of the Province must continue at the same time.

Since the partition of Ireland is really at the root of the whole problem, what steps will the Secretary of State take to overcome the errors of partition created by his predecessors?

I am trying to find an acceptable form of government for the people who live in the Province because in the past they have demonstrated, by way of a poll, that they wish to remain part of the United Kingdom. As long as they wish to remain part of the United Kingdom, that is what will happen. I am trying to make some progress in finding an acceptable form of government for that part of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will state the average rate contribution per head paid in Northern Ireland; and how this relates to payments in the Yorkshire and Humberside region with which the Province is officially compared for local government finance purposes.

I regret that the hon. Gentleman is mistaken. Northern Ireland is no longer compared with the Yorkshire and Humberside region as a consequence of the 1976 report of the working party on the regional rate which stated that family incomes in Northern Ireland compared unfavourably with those in his region.

The rate support grant per head is one-third greater in Northern Ireland than it is in Yorkshire. Are the people of Northern Ireland fully aware of their advantageous position in relation to rate support? Further, will the people of Northern Ireland suffer the same degree of retrenchment which the present Government offer Yorkshire and Humberside, and, if so, will the gap be wider or narrower?

The hon. Member is operating on a false premise. A rate support grant exercise has been conducted in relation to family size, income, needs and resources. This exercise shows that the level of rate in Northern Ireland is approximately correct in that it is close to the level that would have been struck had Northern Ireland been treated as a rating area of England and Wales.

Is it not a fact that rating cannot be a satisfactory or just system of taxation in the absence of representative local government?

That is another question altogether, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware.

Will my hon. Friend take note of the fact that, with councillors being paid allowances as they are, there is a great deal of difference between an area which has no councillors at all and one which has? In that instance, Humberside is very much more fortunate than Ulster.

I note what my hon. Friend says.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many incidents of a terrorist nature there have been in Northern Ireland during the last months; and how many persons have been killed as a result.

Since the beginning of June there have been 134 incidents of a terrorist nature in Northern Ireland resulting in the deaths of four civilians and seven members of the security forces.

Is the Minister aware that most of these incidents were planned and carried out from across the border? Is he also aware that there are almost 100 wanted people in Donegal alone and that the hypocrisy of the Dublin Government in relation to terrorist offences was exposed by the fact that they have sent back an aircraft hijacker to face American justice but refuse to return many murderers to face British justice?

I am aware that a great deal of terrorist activity is planned, effectively, from across the border, but I reject any allegation of hypocrisy on the part of the Dublin Government.

May I express good wishes to those two SAS members who were acquitted in a murder trial in Northern Ireland yesterday? Will the Minister encourage their colleagues to take the kind of action that they took last year when they managed to kill a few terrorists, bearing in mind that a number of people have been killed by terrorists in my constituency?

It would be better to allow both the House and the public to ponder the effects of the conclusion of the trial of the two SAS men who were acquitted, and to study the statement made by the General Officer Commanding as a result of the trial.