asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will meet next the chairman of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation.

I met representatives of the fishing industry, including the president of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, on 29 November to discuss progress towards a settlement of the common fisheries policy and again during the Council of Ministers on 3 December. Arrangements will be made to meet the industry again before the next Council takes place.

If the hoped-for discussions with the chairman of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation take place soon, will my right hon. Friend consider declaring a moratorium on interest on White Fish Authority loans? Will he bear in mind the ever-increasing costs that are borne by the fishermen and that the money that those fishermen get decreases with the ever-decreasing quotas and the effect of imports?

Order. If that was a brief question, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman.

That is not a proposal that we have considered so far. There would be difficulties in making an exception for interest rates on such a matter. I am conscious of the difficulties that the fishing industry faces because of rising costs, and we shall certainly take all these points into account.

Is the Secretary of State aware that at a time when the ban on herring fishing in the North Sea costs the industry thousands of pounds—albeit rightly—there is deep anxiety and anger at the evidence that French fishermen are landing herring caught in the North Sea, in French ports? Do the Government accept that that is happening, and, if so, will they do something about it?

We do all that we can to investigate every case that is reported to us. As I have said before at Question Time, prosecution has been brought on at least one occasion. The hon. Gentleman can rest assured that we shall investigate very seriously every example that we hear of.

Can the Secretary of State tell us something about the limitations on mackerel fishing and whether they were agreed with the fishermen's associations?

The announcement made this week was a warning that we shall have to do something, because the catching capacity of the fleet is increasing while stocks are depleting. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we shall not make any detailed arrangements without first consulting the fishing industry.

I had intended to ask the question posed by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). [HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] My question would have been the same as that asked by the right hon. Gentleman.

I am much obliged. There was a detailed debate on the subject last night, and it will come up again.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects next to meet chairmen of health boards in Scotland.

I met the chairmen of health boards in Scotland on 13 November. No arrangements have been made for a further meeting. The next regular meeting between chairmen and officers of my Department will take place on 11 March 1980.

Will the hon. Gentleman have an urgent meeting with the chairman of the Grampian health board in order to investigate the report that the health board has had to stop open-heart surgery? Otherwise, many emergency patients will have to go to Glasgow or to London to have their operations. Is it not totally unfair that the board should bear the opprobrium of having to stop that kind of surgery, since that responsibility belongs to his Department? If anyone dies, it will be the hon. Gentleman's responsibility.

I am aware of that problem, and it has many ramifications. If the hon. Gentleman will let me have further details, I shall be delighted to give him a detailed reply.

When my hon. Friend next meets the chairman of the Grampian health board, will he impress upon him the need to ensure that there is adequate provision at local level for maternity cases and for the mentally handicapped? The present policy of the board seems designed to concentrate such help in large centres of population.

As my hon. Friend knows, I was in Duff town last weekend to discuss this problem. In the light of those discussions I shall be considering the matter further.

When the Minister met the chairmen of the health boards, did he discuss with them the mean and nasty little cuts that he has made in the ambulance services in Scotland, whereby out-patients at physiotherapy departments will not be carried if they can walk, walking-out patients will not be carried and limitations have been placed on hours of attendance? Does he agree that despite constant denials that there will be no cuts, there have been those cuts in the Health Service in Scotland?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that there have been no cuts in the ambulance service, and certainly no mean and nasty cuts. However, in the interests of public expenditure we have asked that where people can easily get to hospital without an ambulance—and their doctors say that they can get to hospital without an ambulance—they should do so.

Is my hon. Friend aware that 17 part-time chairmen of health boards and two full-time members of the Scottish Health and Welfare Commission are costing approximately £69,000 per annum? Will he investigate that high cost with a view to reducing it and thus helping to reduce public expenditure?

Naturally, I wish to help to reduce public expenditure. However, if my hon. Friend takes the figure that he has mentioned and divides it by the number of people concerned he will see that we are getting a good service. I greatly value the work that these health board chairmen do. They are called part-time, but some of them work almost full-time.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the appalling ignorance on the part of the Minister of what is happening in his constituency—

Order. There is a formula that hon. Members use when giving notice of their intention to raise a matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the structure of the National Health Service in Scotland.

My right hon. Friend's proposals for changes were set out in a consultative paper "Structure and Management of the NHS in Scotland" published on 11 December.

Against the background of the Minister's recent public statement as reported in The Scotsman, will he tell the House precisely with what he intends to replace the structure of the National Health Service in Scotland and when? Does he agree that his utterances as reported in The Scotsman do nothing for the confidence of the health boards or the people working in the Health Service? Does he further agree that the only solution to the problems of the Health Service in Scotland is a massive increase in public expenditure?

My right hon. Friend's consultative document, which was reported in The Scotsman, asks for replies by 30 April. It is clearly a consultative document, and we are asking for opinions from all concerned. I am sure that we shall get sensible opinions and achieve a more efficient Health Service at the end of the day.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there are too many administrators and paper-pushers in the National Health Service in Scotland? Will he confirm that he is taking steps to restore the balance between administrators and medically qualified staff, to the benefit of the patients, for whom the Service is there?

I hope that that fact will come out in the observations that I receive. Our intention is to get the effort to the sharp end of the Service, and that is why we have suggested, for example, that those concerned look at the role of districts and health councils.

Can the Minister recall who was responsible for the reorganisation of the Health Service which is coming in for so much criticism?

I must inform the hon. Gentleman that there was no reorganisation in Scotland of the type that he is suggesting.

Is the Minister aware that the waiting list for orthopaedic patients in Scotland, which dramatically increased during the industrial troubles of last winter, has not yet been seriously reduced? In any reorganisation of the National Health Service in Scotland, will he do all that he can to ensure that the effort is directed to making sure that people with painful conditions get the treatment that they need?

Regrettably, I accept that that is the position, and we shall do everything that we can to prevent its occurring again.

Is the Minister aware that although his consultative document was published last Tuesday the first sight that hon. Members had of it was when 25 copies were placed in the Library last Friday afternoon? The Vote Office still has no supplies of that document available for hon. Members, and I checked on that before I came into the Chamber. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is scandalous? When will the Government decide to run the country through Parliament and not through press releases in Edinburgh?

The adjective "scandalous" should be applied to more serious matters. My Department regrets very much that these 25 copies were not in the Library sooner, and I shall take steps to see that that sort of thing does not happen again. However, there is no question of a consultative document of that nature being put in the Vote Office.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the current situation in the fishing industry.

I am aware that the fishing industry faces many problems as a result of rising costs and the decline in many of the more important fish stocks. The current uncertainties in the industry can best be removed by a satisfactory settlement of the common fisheries policy and the Government are working urgently to that end.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that Aberdeen should be treated in the same way as Hull, Grimsby and Fleetwood, which last year were given £l·2 million? Will he confirm that those three ports have now put in for further aid and that it would be monstrous if they received two grants of aid and Aberdeen received none?

I shall certainly look into the matter. As my hon. Friend knows, the district council and the Aberdeen Fishing Vessel Owners Association have made a preliminary request for aid, and I understand that they are following that up with a memorandum. I assure my hon. Friend that I shall consider that memorandum most urgently when I receive it.

When did the right hon. Gentleman abandon the Government's policy that industries must sustain themselves without subsidy?

I am not certain what the hon. Gentleman is referring to, but the Government have abandoned no policies.

Does my right hon. Friend realise that fishermen on the Clyde have conserved their fish stocks, especially herring, very well over the years, and that any policy for the future must protect them against non-local fishermen, whether they be foreigners or fishermen from elsewhere in the United Kingdom?

My hon. Friend will not be surprised to hear that I share his admiration for the way in which the Clyde fishermen have controlled a difficult situation over recent years. I assure him that any common fisheries policy will take into account their interests and those of other Scottish fishermen.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he proposes to seek powers to negotiate the levels of local rates levied by local authorities; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend does not propose to seek new powers of this kind, but I shall be consulting the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about certain aspects of the present rate support system. My right hon. Friend will then reach a view on the need for change in his powers relating to grants to local authorities.

Is the Minister aware that I hope that when he consults the local authorities he will bear in mind that the Conservative Party issued a manifesto pledging the implementation of certain policies? As the Government are responsible for the prudent handling of finances, is he further aware that I hope that there will be no interference with local authorities in the performance of their traditional function?

The hon. Gentleman is correct in that local authorities have their obligations, but in Scotland the Government provide over 68 per cent. of their expenditure and therefore have a prime obligation to ensure a proper level of support for those authorities.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that one difficulty is that local authorities that were well behaved under the previous Labour Administration and adhered to the guidelines are now facing the greatest difficulties?

The Government have kept that in mind for the rate support grant for next year in order to assist prudent authorities and to discourage those who might otherwise be profligate. The ratio of needs to resources in the rate support grant has been changed to assist those authorities which are prudent and which intend to continue to be prudent.

Will the hon. Gentleman explain why he is trying to govern Scotland by press handouts? Under the powers of local government, could not he have made a statement to the House? Will he confirm that concurrent functions and not the boundaries are under review?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made clear that the review of local government in Scotland is not a comprehensive one. Any recommendations of the review committee have to be consistent with the viability of existing regional and district councils. After several years of experience of the new system there is widespread agreement among the local authorities that it will be useful to consider the detailed changes that might be appropriate at this time.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the previous Government fixed the rate of industrial rating in Scotland at 15 per cent. on the then reasonable assumption that there would be revaluations on both sides of the border? As there has been a revaluation only in Scotland, which has moved the burden of rates towards industry, does he agree that the figure should now be reconsidered?

I am happy to assure my hon. Friend that the provision for industrial derating, which was originally a temporary measure, will, as a result of the provisions of the recently published Local Government Finance Bill, be permanently established. That will be of assistance to industry in Scotland and it will ensure that its rate burden is not significantly different from that south of the border.

Is it not clear that, with the present accelerating rate of inflation, and with the Government cheating on the cash limits by refusing to pay their fair share of the costs of that inflation, rents next year in Scotland will go through the roof?

I am astonished that the right hon. Gentleman, of all people, should complain about the cash limits that have been set for next year. He was responsible for suggesting to local authorities that wage increases this year would be a mere 5 per cent. That figure was greeted with derision by the local authorities, and rightly so. The figures set by this Government are far more realistic. If local authorities are prepared to accept the advice of the Government about the level of expenditure, there is no need for rates to soar through the roof, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

Why does not the hon. Gentleman answer my question? Is it not absolutely clear from what the local authorities have said that the cash limit is quite inadequate and that most local authorities in Scotland will have great difficulty in keeping rate increases next year to below 30 per cent? Is it not the case that many of them will go beyond that figure?

Any local authority that reduces its expenditure on the basis that the Government have indicated will not face the problem referred to by the right hon. Gentleman. He is correct that local authorities would have liked higher cash limits, but I have not heard representations from any local authority that the cash limits are not enormously more realistic than those set by the right hon. Gentleman in the previous Administration.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will define the responsibilities of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the hon. Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher) in relation to the Scottish Development Agency.

The responsibilities of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State concern the exercise by the Agency of those statutory functions which require ministerial approval under the Scottish Development Agency Act and the guidelines.

The new guidelines require the SDA to refer certain investment proposals to the Under-Secretary of State. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain in what way the wisdom of his hon. Friend is greater than that of the collective wisdom of the board?

It is not a question of greater wisdom. It is more a question of both parties playing a specific role. My hon. Friend and I have the role of checking investment above a certain level by the Agency. That is to the mutual benefit of the Agency and the Government.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that one real problem facing the Agency is the low level of regional incentives compared with those in the Republic of Ireland? In view of the fact that, so far, the Agency has displayed all the dynamism of a tortoise in relation to industrial investment in my constituency, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that urgent action is vital in view of the rising trend in unemployment?

I am always anxious to hear suggestions on this matter from all hon. Members. Regional incentives in the areas where they are concentrated—particularly in West Central Scotland—are as high as any in Western Europe. As far as a comparison with Ireland is concerned, we have to make a careful comparison of all facets of investment. When that is done, little difference can be found.

Does my right hon. Friend appreciate that all sensible people in Scotland warmly welcome the firm new guidelines that have been put forward? Until he and the Government took a grip on the SDA, it showed a net return on investment of minus 14·3 per cent. under the previous Administration.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks. The Agency has welcomed the guidelines and believes that they will lead to an improvement.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there is grave public concern about the way in which his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State has interfered in the Agency's work? That public concern has been expressed in the national press by a host of bodies. Will the right hon. Gentleman give the Agency an assurance that his hon. Friend will stop interfering? Economics taught at Greenock high school are no better than those taught at any other school in Scotland.

The hon. Gentleman is wrong in the implication of the last part of his question. Apart from the Labour Party in Scotland, nobody has suggested that my hon. Friend has done other than carry out his duties in an excellent manner. It is interesting to note that what he has done so far has been under the guidelines set by the previous Administration.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the findings of his investigation into the source of the press leak from his office regarding his decision not to reappoint Sir William Gray as chairman of the Scottish Development Agency.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the findings of his investigation into the source of the press leak from his office regarding his decision not to reappoint Sir William Gray as chairman of the Scottish Development Agency.

I have already made clear that there is no evidence to suggest how the decision not to reappoint Sir William Gray as chairman of the Scottish Development Agency became known to the press in advance of my announcement on Monday 3 December. I am, however, satisfied that my office was not involved.

Will the Secretary of State tell the House whether he is really satisfied with that answer? It was a distasteful position for Sir William Gray to find himself in and I hope that the Secretary of State has written a letter of apology to him.

I have written to Sir William to thank him for the work that he has done for the SDA. I am satisfied that my office was not involved in the leak. I was interested to see that the press report made that fact clear.

rose—

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the appointment of Sir William Gray's successor, Mr. Robin Duthie, will be widely welcomed throughout Scotland, and beyond? Not only is he an extremely successful businessman operating in Scotland, but he is a man without political affiliations.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I have no doubt that the general welcome for the appointment of Mr. Duthie will assist the SDA in carrying out an excellent job in the future.

rose—

I should have called the hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. McKelvey), and I do so now.

I find the Secretary of State's answer most disappointing, and I feel that he should have discovered where the leak came from. Nevertheless, will he assure the House that he is not contemplating any more politically motivated dismissals or redundancies in Scotland? If he is contemplating such matters, will he name the people involved?

There was no political motivation in the change. I am enjoined by the Act to make an appointment to the chairmanship of the SDA. The previous chairman's appointment had run out and I appointed the best man that I could find for the job. I am convinced that I achieved that.

Despite the gnashing of teeth on the Labour Benches, does my right hon. Friend remember that the Labour Party would not find a seat for Sir William Gray on Strathclyde regional council at the time of the reorganisation? Will he hazard a guess at how many rejection slips Sir William has received from his so-called Labour Party friends?

Not as many as Teddy Taylor!

I am glad that my responsibilities do not extend to investigating the reasons why the Labour Party withdraws its support from certain Labour members. No doubt Labour members are able to answer that point better than I.

While I have every respect for the abilities of Mr. Duthie and wish him well in his new appointment, I feel that the way in which Sir William was dismissed at short notice, in conjunction with the press leak, has left a nasty taste. Will the right hon. Gentleman at least apologise for that?

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his welcome to Mr. Duthie. It is unfortunate that the leak took place, because it gives the impression that Sir William had not done a satisfactory job. Let me state clearly that I am most grateful to him for doing an excellent job in that position for the four years that he was in office. His term of office came to an end and it was up to me to make an appointment, and I did so.

Knowing that all this has absolutely nothing to do with politics, will the right hon. Gentleman recall his remark of a few moments ago to the effect that the Scottish Development Agency welcomed the new guidelines and, indeed, thought that they were an improvement? What would he have done if the SDA had not welcomed those guidelines?

I should have told the House. I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman thought that this was nothing to do with politics. At times I thought that he thought that he had nothing to do with politics either.

asked the Secretary of state for Scotland when he plans next to meet the Scottish Confederation of British Industry and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

My right hon. Friend and I have met representatives of both bodies several times since taking office and have made it clear that we are prepared to meet both bodies at any time they wish.

When my hon. Friend next meets both sides of Scottish industry will he point out to them that there have been no adverse effects whatever on industry and employment in Scotland following the Chancellor of the Exchequer's courageous and correct decision to abolish exchange controls, despite the hysterical, economically illiterate scare-mongering from the Opposition?

Yes, Sir. I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. The decision to abolish exchange controls is likely to benefit the United Kingdom and Scottish economies, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House last month.

Will the Minister, when he meets either of those bodies, explain why unemployment has risen by 500 in Scotland in the last month and why the underlying trend is clearly upwards? Will he also say where this trend will end? In other words, what is his high target for the unemployment that will follow from the public expenditure cuts that Scotland is experiencing?

That is one point that I do not have to explain to either body. The STUC and the CBI in Scotland are fully aware that unemployment doubled under the previous Labour Government.

When he next meets the STUC will my right hon. Friend remind it that the problem in Scotland has been not the lack of investment capital but the lack of areas for that investment capital to produce profit and jobs for the future?

My hon. Friend is right. There is no shortage of investment funds in Scotland, but there is a shortage of investment opportunities. Until the economy operates on a more sound basis we cannot expect opportunities to present themselves quickly.

Is the Minister aware that his hon. Friend the Member for Renfrewshire, East (Mr. Stewart) has displayed his knowledge of the Scottish economy from A to B? When the Minister next meets the Confederation of British Industry in Scotland, will he discuss with it the statement yesterday by his hon. Friend's successor at the CBI that unemployment in Scotland next year will rise to 250,000 as a result of the Government's policies?

I have not seen the statement to which the hon. Gentleman refers, but I would not disagree with the fact that next year unemployment is likely to rise throughout the United Kingdom, including Scotland. However. I am not in a position to say what the figure might be.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received from community groups, tenants' associations and other bodies supporting the sale of council houses.

We have received large numbers of letters from individuals who support sales and who wish to buy their own homes. Very few representations have been received from organisations expressing views, whether favourable or otherwise, on the sale of council houses.

Will the Minister accept that very few of those letters will come from areas such as Glasgow, Garscadden, where there is widespread fear and dismay about the effects of the sale of council houses? Is the Minister aware that most of my constituents expect that any sales will be in the more popular areas of Glasgow, which will reduce social mobility by ensuring that those who do not already live in those areas will have no chance of moving there to a house of their choice? In view of that, will the Minister look again at the inflexible and dogmatic way in which he approaches this problem?

The letters that have been received from individuals have included approximately 200 in favour and 10 to 15 against the Government's policy. I would also say to the hon. Gentleman that all tenants in Scotland will have the right to buy their homes. I am convinced that tenants in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, when they realise the generous discounts available, will take the opportunity to buy their own homes, in the same way as tenants are doing throughout Scotland.

Will the Minister confirm that he has had representations from the housing authorities in Tweed-dale, and Ettrick and Lauderdale district councils, and presumably elsewhere in Scotland, pointing out that his inflexible formula will be disastrous in the rural areas? Does he agree that these representations are more to the point than letters from individuals?

The Government do not accept that any of the proposals in the Tenant's Rights Etc. (Scotland) Bill will be disastrous in the rural areas. There is no reason why council tenants living in rural areas should not have the same rights as those in urban areas. We believe that we should ensure that this fundamental freedom is available to all Scottish tenants.

Can my hon. Friend indicate, from the sales of council houses that have already been achieved since his order went out to local authorities, what finance has been required by those tenants buying their houses from local authorities and what proportion has been self-financed?

It is already clear that this year more council houses will have been sold to tenants than in any other year in Scottish history. We are pleased to see that a substantial proportion of tenants have been able to finance the purchase of their own homes other than through local authority mortgages. My hon. Friend may be interested to know that the building societies have informed us that 25 per cent. of their depositors are council tenants. The building societies are therefore clearly able to help council tenants as well as other owner-occupiers.

On a previous occasion the Minister said that the purpose of the Government's legislation on the sale of council houses was to extend a new human right to council house tenants. What does he say to families living in high rise flats who will see their chances of ever getting out of those flats and moving into other areas compromised by the Government's proposals? What sorts of human rights will those people have in future?

The hon. Gentleman must accept that the very tenants to whom he refers have found that even without this right to buy they have been unable to move to an area of their choice for many years. What we are saying to these tenants is that they will now have the right to buy and at least have something to show for the many years during which they pay rent.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when next he will meet the chairman of the Scottish Development Agency.

My hon. Friend with responsibility for industry and education and I have already had preliminary meetings with Mr. Duthie and expect to meet him regularly in the future.

Many of us on the Opposition Benches congratulate the new chairman and wish him well in his difficult task. Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the new chairman that the visit to America of the Under-Secretary of State was a disaster, according to reports in the press? The hon. Gentleman played down the work of the Scottish Development Agency, which did not do it a service. In view of the new Government guidelines, will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that the Under-Secretary will not be breathing down the neck of the chairman and the board, and will allow the Agency to get on with the work of rejuvenating Scottish industry?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his good wishes to Mr. Duthie. My hon. Friend's visit to America was an outstanding success. He met a number of important firms with investment opportunities in Scotland. I assure the hon. Gentleman that my hon. Friend will, as before, carry out his duties with strict regard to what he is entitled to do by statute.

Can my right hon. Friend confirm with the new chairman that under the new investment guidelines the SDA will no longer be able to subsidise inefficiency or promote subsidised unfair competition as in the past?

My hon. Friend can be assured that the new guidelines make it clear that the Agency's investment functions will be much more likely to be efficiently managed with technical skill in investment matters, which will ensure what my hon. Friend has suggested in his question.

Will the Secretary of State accept that the SDA has been a glorious success in its ability to attract jobs and industry to Scotland? Does he agree that Scotland now has a major advantage, as against the Northern region, in its ability to attract jobs and industry for the future? Will the right hon. Gentleman try to sell the idea of a development agency for the Northern region to the Secretary of State for Industry?

That is a matter that the hon. Gentleman must take up with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. I agree that the Scottish Development Agency and those who work in it are doing a good job. The functions that were inherited from several bodies that have been in business for a long time in Scotland have been carried out extremely efficiently. I and my hon. Friend will give the Agency our support to do an even better job in future.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many new factory units have been built by the Scottish Development Agency since its inception.

Since it was set up in December 1975 the Scottish Development Agency has completed a total of 177 factory units providing some 2·5 million sq ft of factory space.

Can my hon. Friend tell us how many of these units have been sold? Has he given the SDA any guidance about whether its attitude to such sales should be active or passive?

I am not aware of how many units have been sold. I believe that the majority of this accommodation is rented. I agree with my hon. Friend that it would be in the public interest if more sales of these factories could be to their occupants.

Will the Minister impress upon the Scottish Development Agency the importance of looking at existing industrial sites for factories? Has he had any discussions with the SDA about the Singer site at Clydebank? What progress has been made with the Government's plans for some sort of rescue operation in that hard-hit area?

My right hon. Friend and I have asked the Scottish Economic Planning Department, in conjunction with the SDA and the local authorities, to prepare a working plan for the Clydebank area. We hope that the findings of the group on this project will be available shortly.

When my hon. Friend next sees the officers of the SDA will he remind them that in all their work, whether it is building factory units or otherwise, they should stick to the tight guidelines that have properly been imposed upon them? Will he remind them that there are wider implications than the purely Scottish one, in that they are spending money from the taxpayers of the whole of the United Kingdom, and one of their objectives is to take jobs and investment away from places such as Wolverhampton, which was once prosperous?

As my right hon. Friend said, the SDA has accepted the new guidelines that we have presented to it. We have every confidence that it will cooperate with us in making sure that the guidelines are carried through successfully.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received regarding the Government's assisted places scheme as it affects Scotland.

About 25 letters have been received about the proposal, mainly from parents who are interested in the scheme.

Does the Minister agree that because of the distorted geographical distribution of the schools—most of them being in the East of Scotland, and nearly 40 per cent. of the places being in Edinburgh—the taxpayers of the West of Scotland, including Ayrshire, will effectively be subsidising the privileged education of the petty bourgeoisie of the city of Edinburgh? What will he do to alter this position?

The hon. Member has certainly changed his coat since he had to flee from Edinburgh politics a few months ago. I take the point that traditionally the distribution of schools is not as good as it might be. We hope that as the scheme comes into being there will be further opportunities for schools in other parts of Scotland to take advantage of it and provide a better choice for parents.

Does the Minister accept that if anyone wishes to set up a private school and fund it 100 per cent. from his own resources it would be a denial of democracy to stop him from doing so? However, does he further accept that the types of schools that have been discussed are half State and half private, and therefore the State part is robbery from the public purse?

I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman's last point. I am glad that he accepts the point that, just as people should be free to set up independent schools if they wish, so parents should be free, regardless of their means, to take the opportunity to send their children to these schools if they wish to do so.

Does my hon. Friend agree that what we have just heard from the Opposition Benches, particularly from the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Foulkes), is a grotesque misrepresentation of the purpose of the scheme? Is it not clear that the hon. Member has not even read the opening sentence of the document, which says quite clearly that the objective of the scheme is to provide an option for able children from lower income families?

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. So many Labour Members are annoyed by the fact that the whole object of the scheme is to help lower income families—the very people whom they always claim to look after.

If it is the declared intention of the Tory Government to cut out all non-essential public expenditure, what possible justification is there for taking away meals, milk and transport from the 95 per cent. of children who attend State schools in order to give an extra £60 million a year to the privileged, private fee-paying schools, which cater for a minority of the population? Will the Minister give us an assurance that before he comes to an ultimate decision on this matter it will be debated adequately on the Floor of the House?

It is a great pity that the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) is unable to get to his feet in this House without grossly exaggerating his points. We are not taking meals and transport away from children in the State sector. We are allowing the local authorities greater discretion.

Is it not astonishing that Labour Members, so many of whom have had privileged education, are now so anxious to kick away the ladder which children from under-privileged homes might have the opportunity to climb?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

Is the Minister aware that when the Labour Party returns to power we shall immediately abolish this scheme? Will he make that clear when he is having discussions on the matter? Is he further aware that his assisted places scheme has no supporters whatsoever in the educational world in Scotland? Will he give every child in Scotland the best possible Christmas present by resigning before he ruins Scottish education?

The hon. Member makes abundantly clear the well-known fact that under Labour Governments the less well-off people in this country are always worse off.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects the all-party talks about the government of Scotland to conclude.

We received only this week the last of the replies from the other parties. We hope that it will be possible to establish talks at any rate with some of the parties early in the New Year. It is too soon to forecast when they will end.

Does that reply mean that there is still no agreement, even about the agenda? If there is such an agreement, does it include the prospect of a directly elected Assembly?

I understand from the replies received that most of the other parties are prepared to undertake talks, but on certain conditions. On the question of a Scottish Assembly, I made it clear in the debate on the repeal order on 20 June that as this matter had been thoroughly thrashed out over two or three years in the House, and had been put to the Scottish people in a referendum, it was not something that people would thank us for going over again and again.

Is the Secretary of State aware that local authority housing contracts have been held up by the SDD? Will he give us an assurance that the Government are not using the SDD to delay housing contracts and modernisation contracts submitted by the Scottish Special Housing Association, such as those in the Balornock and Robroyston area? Will he also give an assurance that he will investigate whether this delay has taken place?

That is another question, but I assure the hon. Member that no such thing is taking place.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many people in Scotland are delighted that so-called devolution, as generally defined on the Labour Benches, is now effectively dead?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks, but I hope that he will agree with me that there is still scope for trying to improve the way in which Scottish business is handled in this House. I hope that we can have talks about it.

In view of the assurances that were given by Lord Home of the Hirsel during the debate on the referendum about the Conservative Party's proposals for devolution, will the Secretary of State comment on the contrast between the Government's policy of offering Northern Ireland full legislative and executive self-government, including industrial powers, which were not on offer previously, and the paltry talks that are now on offer for the reformation of government in Scotland?

I am not surprised that the Scottish National Party is not prepared to take part in these talks, because its objective is the separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Member that Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland and Scotland is Scotland. We want to do it our way.

Is it not clear that now that the Government have been flushed out by being asked to provide an agenda for the all-party talks they have abandoned even their phoney commitment to devolution? Is it not a fact that there is nothing in the suggested agenda that has anything to do with devolution? All that the Government want to talk about now is the management of Scottish parliamentary business. Why was yesterday's meeting postponed, and will it take place later this week?

On the last point, I certainly hope to have a meeting as soon as it can be arranged. There have been a number of difficulties in getting all the parties concerned together. On the first point, I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman indicated, namely, that there is scope for discussing how we can improve the conduct of Scottish parliamentary business. That is a desirable end for its own sake. The right hon. Member must accept that after all we have been through in the past three years it is not on to start talking about the whole subject of devolution again.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the likely sources of finance for mortgages for the sale of local authority housing, and how much will be available from each source.

All prospective purchasers will be expected to seek finance for sales from private sources in the first instance. As the explanatory and financial memorandum relating to the Tenants' Rights Etc. (Scotland) Bill indicates, we have estimated that 30 per cent. of the finance will be drawn from tenants' existing resources or provided by building societies and other private lending institutions, leaving 70 per cent. to be provided through loans from housing authorities.

The explanatory and financial memorandum to the Bill merely deals with one of the financial aspects of the sale of council houses. Can we expect from the Scottish Office the commitment to provide a long-term assessment of the financial consequences to local authorities as well as to central Government that has been promised by the Secretary of State for the Environment? Are we likely to receive that assessment in sufficient time to enable that most important aspect of the sale of council houses to be considered on Second Reading?

We intend to provide the Government's assessment of the financial consequences to assist Members when the Bill is being considered.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland whether he has any plans to meet the sheriffs principal.

I do not have any plans at present to meet the sheriffs principal, but my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Advocate and I have meetings with them from time to time.

When my hon. and learned Friend next has such a meeting, will he discuss with them the options at present available to children's panels for the disposal of cases coming before them? Will he especially consider the wisdom of introducing another option for disposal, namely, financial reparation from the child involved or, more importantly, from its parents?

Any improvement that we can make in the effectiveness of children's panels is something that I am sure both sides of the House would wish to achieve. To that end I am visiting a children's panel hearing at 9.15 am on Friday.

When the Solicitor-General meets the sheriffs principal, will he discuss with them the new Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill that has been published today? Will he inform them of the timetable that he expects for the Bill in both this House and the other place during the next few months, and when he finally expects it to become part of our statute law?

Yes.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland when next he plans to meet the Procurator Fiscal of Perth and Kinross district.

I last visited the office of the Procurator Fiscal in Perth on 11 September, and I intend to do so again early in the new year.

When my hon. and learned Friend calls on the Procurator Fiscal in Perth in the new year, will he draw his attention to the concern felt by anglers and fishing clubs in the area about illegal poaching of salmon, especially about the use of materials that are explosive and poisonous? When my hon. and learned Friend is in court, will he draw attention to the maxium penalties that are available to the courts when prosecutions are carried out?

I am aware of the problem of poaching and of the inadequacy of the penalties. That is not the only fish that I would he anxious to fry.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland when he expects to meet the Scottish Law Commission.

My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Advocate visited the Scottish Law Commission on 15 October, and further meetings will be held as and when necessary.

Will the Solicitor-General discuss with the Commission the enormous legal complexities created by the Tory Government's policy of treating Scottish legislation as a minor intrusion into United Kingdom Bills, such as the Education (No. 2) Bill and the Local Government Planning and Land Bill? Will he give an assurance that he will make a personal contribution at some stage in the proceedings on the Education (No. 2) Bill to explain his learned views on his Government's unlearned policy of depriving children of their legal right to school meals, milk and transport, which will affect the living standards of children in Kinross and West Perthshire as well as in the rest of Scotland?

As it is Christmas I am sure that I can make a bargain with the hon. Gentleman. I am willing to make my learned views known to the Committee considering the Education (No. 2) Bill in the proportion that he is willing to restrict his ignorant views. I am sure that all Members of the House would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would make the solemn and supreme sacrifice of forgoing sustenance himself so that the rest of the population could benefit from his abstinence.

When the Solicitor-General next meets the Law Commission, will he ascertain from it—if he already knows will he tell us—how it is progressing in its work of giving effect to financial settlements in divorce cases, which he knows causes a great deal of unhappiness to those in Scotland? As the matter has been under consideration for a long time, when may we see the result?

It is an important matter, and the Law Commission has been working on it. It is an extremely complex issue and I regret that all the difficulties attendant upon the tragedy of human separation have not yet been solved satisfactorily by any country. If anyone can make suggestions towards a solution, I am sure that that would be welcomed by both sides of the House.

I return to the serious issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan). Will the Solicitor-General discuss with the Law Commission the new practice of the Government's inserting Scottish clauses—basically Scottish legislation—into United Kingdom Bills? Is the Solicitor-General in favour of such a practice? Will he give us the benefit of his views?

Even at Christmas, it is nice to see a sinner come to repentance. I do not recollect many Bills for which the hon. Member was responsible that did not have the same characteristics. It is a difficult matter. It would be nice to have separate legislation, but it is not practicable, and in any circumstance in which it is contradictory it will not be done.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland what is his estimate of the impact on numbers of Crown Office staff and the Procurator Fiscal Service of the introduction of a new offence of vandalism.

In the event of a new offence of vandalism being created, it would not be expected to affect the numbers of staff in the Crown Office or in the Procurator Fiscal Service.

Will the Solicitor-General accept that there will be some dismay among the many people who see the new offence of vandalism surviving as clause 75 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill that was published today? Many feel that it is a totally redundant piece of cosmetic window-dressing. Any offence that could be envisaged could be covered by existing offences such as malicious mischief and breach of the peace. Is the hon. and learned Gentleman aware that it is a nasty example of the Conservative Government trying to give the impression that they are doing something about crime when they are merely putting on the statute book a piece of useless lumber?

That is one of the many matters in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill that will be greatly welcomed. I wish that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) would not continue to purvey dismay. Resentment at all attempts to prevent the hideousness of crime is anything but desirable.

As it is now estimated that vandalism is costing the country about £200 million a year, and as it inspires terror and misery, especially among the elderly, will my hon. and learned Friend accept that anything that the new Bill does to reduce vandalism will be widely welcomed throughout Scotland.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Vandalism is one of the most pernicious sores in our society, because it is so unlikely to be detected. Anything that can contribute to its eradication will, I am sure, be welcomed, even by those who vote Labour.

Will the Solicitor-General apply his common sense, rather than his legal knowledge, and admit that the Government's policy of securing cutbacks in libraries, museums, leisure and recreation services will hardly reduce vandalism?

Probably the worst vandalism to occur for some time was the encouragement given by Labour Members to think that we were entitled to live beyond our means with money that we did not have.

If the Solicitor-General is so concerned about detecting crimes of vandalism—we all have that concern—will he indicate how many acts of vandalism will be detected in future merely because the offence is called vandalism, as distinct from malicious mischief?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there is more to crime than the mere detection of it. There is also the deterrence of it. If people are made conscious in public of the opprobrium that attaches to vandalism and the penalties that attach to it, they are infinitely less likely to commit it.