asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he plans next to meet the Wales Trades Union Congress to discuss the steel industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when next he proposes to meet leaders of the Wales Trades Union Congress.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and I will be meeting representatives of the Wales Trades Union Congress on 25 February.

When the Secretary of State meets the Wales TUC, will he explain to it why the Conservative Party in Wales is still extolling the virtues of owner-occupation when, at a stroke, by closing down the steel industry in whole areas of Wales the Government have destroyed what stake owner-occupiers had in their country?

I do not believe that it is of any help to owner-occupiers to continue to support an industry which cannot compete in world markets.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the loss of 7,500 jobs in four months in my constituency poses a real strain on the social fabric of the area as well as on the local economy? What hope of new jobs can he offer in the imminent near future? Will he take time to examine the underrated, unsung and vulnerable textile industry in my constituency, where 4,000 jobs have been lost in a decade, and in which Deeside Mill is at risk, involving 500 jobs?

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the strains and difficulties that these events create and by the announcement of measures of assistance the Government have indicated that they will do everything in their power to create the infrastructure to attract fresh industry. There have been other announcements, concerning the titanium plant and the coal research project, which I hope will prove helpful. I shall consider what the hon. Gentleman has said about the textile situation to see whether more can be done.

When my hon. Friend meets the Wales TUC, will he invite it to condemn not merely the use of force by pickets but the use of intimidation as a weapon?

I think that it would perhaps be best to refer the Wales TUC to the White Paper issued by the previous Government, following consultation with the TUC, in which these practices were condemned and a clear statement was made by the TUC that it would support measures to uphold the law.

Will the right hon. gentleman appreciate that this is not a kid-glove affair? A serious situation exists throughout the steel and coal industries in South Wales. The right hon. Gentleman can be assured of a warm welcome when he meets the Wales TUC, but will he meanwhile, prevail upon the Secretary of State for Industry to intervene in the dispute?

I do not underestimate the seriousness of the situation. That is why, at a time when the Government are engaged in a round of difficult public expenditure cuts, we have thought it right to make a substantial sum of money available for remedial measures in the area.

Has the Secretary of State seen the article in The Times today which refers to an estimate by the Manpower Services Commission of 2 million unemployed in the United Kingdom next year? When the right hon. Gentleman meets the Wales TUC, will he disclose to it how many Welshmen and Welshwomen will be part of that 2 million? Above all, will he disclose what steps he intends to take to solve the problems associated with the rundown in the steel and coal industries? His Micawber-like attitude of waiting for something to turn up is proving disastrous for the people of Wales.

Of course I shall discuss these matters with the Wales TUC. That is why we have invited it to come and see us. I shall listen to any constructive proposals that it has to make.

rose—

Order. This matter comes up again.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to meet the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency.

I meet the chairman frequently.

At my right hon. Friend's next meeting with the chairman will he be discussing the investment programme of the Agency, in the light of the failure of Leiner? How much will the company's crash cost the Agency?

I have had discussions with the Agency about its investment programme and we have indicated that we think it right that, out of the reduced sums available to the Agency, it should concentrate primarily on the small business sector. The Agency made a £2 million investment in Leiner on 2 February 1979, and at that time it was owed about £800,000 for services. Since then the amount outstanding for services has continued to rise and, although the company has gone into receivership and one hopes that there will be some recovery, there is a possibility that the agency will face a substantial loss.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Leiner problem must be judged by two criteria, namely, the maintenance of employment and manufacturing capacity and the safeguarding of public expenditure? When he meets the WDA, will he ask about what seems to be an extraordinary decision to call in £500,000 from the company at six hours' notice, thereby forcing it into receivership, when the WDA knew that a contract signed with Romania a month ago would have given £1 million profit to the company and that the sale of the encapsulation plant, which has been interrupted, was nearing fruition? What hope can the right hon. Gentleman give to those working at the plant, who are so diligent that they won the Queen's Award to Industry three years running?

The company made substantial losses before the investment took place, and since then there has been a large over-capacity in the industry. The situation was deteriorating and the bank had first charge on the moneys from the American deal. I have made clear to the WDA that it would have complete discretion over the way in which it handled the difficult and deteriorating situation.

While there must be the most detailed and careful examination and investigation of this serious matter, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend agrees that it is not one in which a hasty judgment should be reached, because many companies have been placed under great pressure by economic and industrial events all over the world, and the Leiner company has had a splendid record for a quarter of a century?

The company had had a good record, though at the time that the investment took place the losses made in the previous year ensured that the money put in went simply to meet those losses and was fully absorbed by that. I repeat that I have made clear to the chairman and chief executive of the WDA that they must have complete discretion in how they handle the difficult situation facing them.

When the Secretary of State meets the chairman will he apologise for the shameful attempts that he has been making to fob off on to the Agency responsibility for the suspension of all derelict land schemes in Mid-Glamorgan as a result of the petty-minded public expenditure cuts that the right hon. Gentleman has imposed on the Agency? Does not he consider that action to be a grave offence to a county with an enormous amount of derelict land, with communities such as my own, from which the idea of derelict land clearance originally stemmed?

The WDA initially allocated about £6 million to derelict land clearance in its budget for this year, as against expenditure last year of about £7 million. In doing so it took account of the need for priority expenditure on advance factory programmes There was a massive continuing commitment which it had to meet before launching into new schemes. It is clear that as a result of the additional sums that I have made available in connection with the steel closures in South Wales there will be more money available for derelict land clearance where it is linked to the preparation of sites for industrial development.

Reverting to the Leiner decision, and in view of what the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) said, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that because of the Romanian deal, the sale of the capsule side and the willingness of the family to give up its holding in the company, the bank was not going to press its rights, and that if the WDA had not pressed the company it could have continued for a considerable time?

The bank had prior charges, and the substantial service debts were mounting steadily. We have not yet seen the audited accounts for the previous financial year, which may indicate that losses were even greater than was thought when the investment was made. I have made it clear that the WDA must look at the situation on a day-to-day basis and make decisions in the light of the information available to it, after discussions with the bank, on the proper way forward. I understand that that has happened.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the WDA has instituted financial control systems that will adequately protect public money from this sort of loss in future?

I have instituted tighter guidelines for this sort of investment, and I have great confidence in the new chairman whom I have appointed and who takes over an extremely difficult situation.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that from some of the comments made in the House today, and from certain press reports of the past week, there seems to have been an over-hasty judgment in the Leiner case? I should make clear that the Opposition want the WDA to succeed in all its activities. Its investment activity is essential to preserve and create jobs in Wales. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I look forward to an early statement from him or the WDA on this issue?

I shall certainly draw to the attention of the chairman the right hon. Gentleman's desire for a statement, but I do not believe that his suggestion about over-hasty action is true. The situation has been deteriorating. The WDA has been considering it for many weeks and has been engaged in discussions with the banks and other interested parties. Other negotiations that have been taking place have been relevant and have had to be taken into account in decision making. I told the chairman a week or so ago that I must leave it to him to decide what course of action he, the chief executive and the board choose to pursue.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to meet the chairman of Wales Gas.

I have no immediate plans to meet the chairman of Wales Gas.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the proposed steep increases in gas prices, though reluctantly accepted as essential by many, are causing great apprehension to a large number of people? Will he be more specific than Ministers have been up to now in saying what measures of alleviation are proposed for those who will be hard hit by the increases, not merely the over-75s?

My hon. Friend is aware of the scheme anounced on 22 October last year, which was designed to provide help for those most in need. The Government have made it clear that they are reviewing the whole range of measures available to assist those in the community most in need of help with fuel bills, and an announcement will be made in due course.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will meet the Gwynedd officers of the Transport and General Workers Union.

I have no present plans to do so.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the tremendous support in Caernarvon for the Transport and General Workers Union and others involved in the fight to save the Bernard Wardle company, which is under threat of closure? Has he taken up with Mr. Graham Ferguson Lacey, who is involved in a takeover bid for the Wardle group, the future of the Caernarvon plant, as his new set of directors may be responsible in a few weeks' time and could seriously reconsider the decision to close the Caernarvon factory?

The hon. Gentleman and I have had a discussion about the company, and I understand that he will be attending the meeting that is to take place on Friday. My officials are keeping in the closest possible touch with the company and we will do everything in our power to assist if there seems to be a sensible way to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he will publish the results of the feasibility study by consulting engineers R. Travers Morgan into a submersible tunnel crossing the River Conwy; and when he will indicate his decision on the matter.

We expect to receive a report shortly. We will need to study it before saying when it could be made available to interested parties.

Is my hon. Friend aware that, on environmental grounds, a tunnel would be preferable, and that a decision will have to be taken shortly to meet the Secretary of State's deadline of 1987–88 for a route of strategic economic importance to the people of North Wales? I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of that, bearing in mind that he represents the constituency of Conway.

I cannot give any commitment about the timing of publication, let alone a decision, until we have seen the report. I fully appreciate the importance of completing the improvements along the whole of the A55 as soon as possible.

Will the Minister confirm that the 1987 target date for completion of the dual carriageway can be met if they continue with the tunnel under the Conwy Estuary?

As I have already said, we have not seen the report, and it is impossible for me to answer that question. Various sections of the improvements are scheduled for different years. In the coming year, 1981, three schemes started will be totalling in value more than £120 million.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with his review of flood emergency arrangements with Welsh county councils and whether he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with his review of flood emergency arrangements with Welsh county councils.

The review of flood emergency arrangements is not a Welsh Office review. The county councils whose areas were affected by the floods of 27 and 28 December are conducting reviews, and they have been asked to let my right hon. Friend know the results of these reviews. We have not yet received their reports, but I know that the authorities concerned are examining any deficiencies in the emergency arrangements with a view to ensuring that they work smoothly in future.

When speaking to the county councils about the lessons that they have learnt from the floods experienced after Christmas, will my hon. Friend bear in mind two obvious needs: first, the need for a better early-warning system, and secondly, the need to have emergency supplies available to the voluntary organisations, which moved so swiftly on that occasion?

I am aware that early warnings were not received in some areas. There were difficulties in maintaining telephone communications. In some areas there were difficulties also in interpreting the information provided by the water authorities. The position is being reviewed by the authorities concerned, to avoid similar problems in future.

Is the Minister aware that there is dissatisfaction over the lack of immediate financial aid from the Government? Although there is the agree- ment to give the product of the 1p rate, the need is immediate. Local authorities had to appeal for EEC funds. If we are giving £1,000 million to Europe, why cannot we establish a fund to meet the immediate needs of those who lost their possessions in the floods?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware of the aid that is available. Local authorities can give aid, and the Government will meet it above the cost of a 1p rate. What is under the 1p rate might rank for rate support grant. Moneys properly given by local authorities in individual aid can qualify for rate support grant also.

Does the Minister accept that the inhabitants of the areas stricken by the floods would trade all the early-warning systems in the world for an assurance that preventive action will be taken by the Welsh water authority to prevent such floods from happening again?

The Welsh water authority intends to review the whole of its system, including the warnings given to the police and the local authorities, and the problems of maintaining communications. It intends to hold regular exercises with the police and the local authorities to ensure that those involved are aware of the local plans and of their responsibilities within those plans.

Has the Secretary of State received any representations from the National Farmers Union in Wales and the Farmers Union of Wales about the losses sustained in the floods?

I am not aware that my right hon. Friend has received any representations from the farmers unions. We are well aware that many farmers sustained substantial losses.

Is the Minister aware that while it is true that many parts of Wales affected by the recent flooding did not receive adequate warning, the Government cannot say that it is entirely a matter for county councils? Apart from the emergency measures that are necessary, many of the preventive measures are the responsibility not only of local authorities but of the water authority, the Welsh Development Agency, the nationalised industries and the Forestry Commission, all of whom have a role to play.

We are taking a considerable and active interest in the matter. I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the local authorities, which do a good job. They would rightly resent intervention on our part. They have the powers and the organisation for dealing with emergencies, and, most importantly, they have the manpower and the plant needed. I feel a sense of personal concern for those who suffered, but that does not mean that we need to take over the role of the local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what consultations he has had with the local government associations in Wales.

My consultations with Welsh local authority associations naturally embrace a wide range of issues.

In the Minister's discussions with the local authority associations, has his attention been drawn to the widespread opposition to the proposals in the Rayner report for the payment of social security benefits through sub-post offices? Is he aware of the concern of the Mid-Glamorgan county council over the way in which old-age pensioners will be disadvantaged if the nonsense proposals are permitted to go through? Will the right hon. Gentleman bring his influence to bear upon his Cabinet colleagues and draw their attention to the widespread opposition in Wales to the proposals?

The matter is to be debated in the House tomorrow. I must disabuse the House of the notion that old-age pensioners are to be made to receive their pensions in that way. The object is to offer a wider choice to those who wish to receive payment by way of cheque.

That is absolute nonsense.

The Government are consulting widely on the suggestions, and no final decision has been taken.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that on this side of the House also there is great concern lest the very desirable changes proposed should result in any closures of sub-post offices? What do the Government propose to prevent that?

We have received a large number of representations on the matter. The issue is to be debated in the House tomorrow.

Is not the Secretary of State seriously concerned about his party's tarnished image in Wales? Will he consider seeking advice from Saatchi and Saatchi so that he can convince the councils, the steel workers, the coal miners, the railwaymen and the post office workers that the Conservative Government are good for them?

I shall continue to do my best to ensure that the interests of those in Wales are protected. I shall be content to defend the Government's policy. I have obtained from my Cabinet colleagues an additional £48 million by way of assistance to ensure that effective measures are taken in the South Wales area.

If my right hon. Friend further employs the services of Saatchi and Saatchi, does he agree that its services would be better employed in pointing out the myopia of Opposition Members, who think that the ills confronting Wales have occurred during the past nine months only and are not a result of the previous Administration's policy?

Most of the problems result from the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition, who believes that public expenditure does not count a tuppenny damn.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the preposterous proposition by the Secretary of State for the Environment that he will take into account the speeches of members of county and district councils when deciding whether to apply financial sanctions under the rate support grant? Does the right hon. Gentleman intend to apply such a policy in Wales? If so, how does he intend to justify this curbing of the natural democratic right of councillors to express their criticisms?

We have made it absolutely clear that councils, which attempt seriously to conform with Government policy on public expenditure will not be penalised for incurring exceptional and unavoidable expenditure, as, for example, with the recent floods.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the National Coal Board, Wales region.

I last met the area director, NCB South Wales on 20 November 1979.

Did the right hon. Gentleman discuss with the area director the possibility of investment in the Ancit process at the Phurnacite plant in Aberaman, bearing in mind that with the increase in gas and other energy prices there is likely to be an increased demand for this type of fuel? Did he discuss the great difficulty that now faces Wales with the possible closure of Port Talbort and Llanwern, and the effect that that will have on the coal industry in South Wales? Will he use his influence in the Cabinet to prevent these closures from taking place?

We discuss all these issues. The Government are making available to the NCB substantial sums for its investment programme. Its programme for the current year amounts to over £600 million, of which about £250 million is in the form of grants. The increase in oil prices makes it a good deal easier for the NCB to meet some of the problems with which it is faced.

Will my right hon. Friend pay close attention to the imports of coking coal, which are causing so much concern among the mine workers in Wales? Is he aware that in 1978, 9·2 per cent. of coal consumed at United Kingdom coke ovens was imported, and that the provisional figure for 1979 is 15·7 per cent.? Will he look carefully into that?

An agreement has recently been made between the NCB and the British Steel Corporation which will mean no increase in imports of coking coal in the next year. That will undoubtedly be of considerable assistance to the South Wales industry.

Is the Secretary of State aware—if he is not he can confirm this fact when he next meets the NCB—that the agreement between the National Coal Board and the BSC is financed entirely by the NCB, with the Government making no contribution? Does he realise that the agreement provides only one year's respite—just a breathing space—for the two industries and for the South Wales coalfield? If that coalfield is to be viable, providing coal from Aberaman and other places—coal which will be badly needed in the future—there will have to be public investment by the Government.

I have indicated the scale of public investment in the coal industry. I do not think that it is entirely wrong that, on a turnover of about £3,000 million, when oil prices have risen sharply, the National Coal Board should have to meet the cost of the additional subsidy required.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent discussions with Gwent county council concerning the completion of Newport's road plans and including a fourth river crossing.

No, Sir. The programming of local road schemes is a matter for the county council to determine.

When production is proceeding normally about 20,000 people a day travel into Newport to pursue their employment, with all the environmental pollution and congestion that that causes. Environmental considerations apart, does not the Minister appreciate that if South-East Wales is to have any hope for the future these vital developments in Newport must be given the highest priority?

I am fully aware of the traffic congestion to which the hon. Member refers. Various steps are being taken. There is currently a widening scheme primarily intended to reduce delays and the dangers caused by heavy vehicles overtaking on the upgrades of the M4. Alternative ways of reducing traffic through the Crindau tunnels are being investigated.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on his plans to reform the common agricultural policy; and if he will make a statement.

The common agricultural policy is in need of urgent and permanent reform and the Government will have that fact very much in mind during the price fixing negotiations now being embarked upon.

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Is he in favour of deficiency payments for the intervention system? Does he favour selling our butter to the Russians at 30p a pound while charging the elderly in this country nearly £1 a pound? If he believes that Welsh agriculture is to survive and compete on equal terms with its counterpart in Europe, does he believe that the green pound and the MCAs should be abolished so that we may compete in that market?

We have made it perfectly clear that we are opposed to the sale of cheap butter to Russia and will do our best to prevent it. My right hon. Friend has taken a strong, firm line there. With regard to MCAs, the Government have implemented three green pound devaluations since coming into office, and that, combined with the strength of the pound, means that the MCA gap has largely been eliminated.

Will my right hon. friend ensure that British payments to the Community under the CAP are conditional upon French adherence to the Treaty of Rome in respect of sheep and lamb imports?

My hon. Friend well knows that we have been pressing the Commission very hard to take action against the illegal acts of the French Government on lamb imports. We shall continue to press the matter and to press the Commission for action.

Will the Secretary of State make it clear to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food that any price increases resulting from the price fixing negotiations will merely mean an increase in our budgetary contribution? Will the Government therefore veto all price increases in order to keep our contribution down to the existing £1,000 million?

We are totally opposed to price increases which will have the effect of increasing the present surpluses, and we shall take a strong line on that. But we must also be opposed to measures which are discriminatory against our farmers, and which seek merely to penalise our farmers but not those elsewhere in Europe.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that a few years ago butter was sold through a special concession to elderly persons? Does he realise that that was a better method of dealing with the surplus?

I note that. This matter is not entirely within the hands of the Government, but my right hon. Friend has taken a strong line in the Council of Ministers on this issue and will continue to do so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when last he met the representatives of the nationalised industries in Wales.

I met the BSC Welsh division managing director and the NCB area director in separate meetings on 20 November.

Has the right hon. Gentleman discussed with representatives of the Post Office in Wales the threat of the closure of hundreds of sub-post offices throughout the Principality as a result of the proposition put forward by the Government for the payment of pensions? Is he aware that this is causing deep alarm to pensioners and the disabled? Will he, as a matter of urgency, have discussions with those who represent the disabled and pensioners to establish precisely what will be the effect of these proposals if they go ahead?

We have already dealt with this matter today. I have made it clear that some of the fears are based on a total misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the proposals. The matter will be debated tomorrow, and the facts can then be clearly established.

Will my right hon. Friend use any forthcoming meetings that he may have with the heads of nationalised industries in Wales to get across to them and to the public the message that though taxpayers' money may be available for public investment in nationalised industries, under no circumstances will it be available to finance wage increases which are unmatched by productivity?

The Government have made their position on that matter abundantly plain.

Will the Secretary of State urge a rethink by his Cabinet colleagues and the British Steel Corporation of the dangerously low steel target of 15 million tonnes a year? For an industrial nation and a strategic industry, that is very worrying. Will he urge his Cabinet colleagues to look at the ruinous number of foreign cars being imported, bearing in mind that such imports destroy the jobs of British steel workers?

Under the present plans there is a good deal of spare capacity for an increase if British Steel can sell the product. The problem is the corporation's inability to sell the steel. Certainly it is not in the interests of the British motor car industry, which faces its own difficulties, that BSC continues to be uneconomic and uncompetitive.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether there has been a change in his policy on the reclamation of derelict land in Wales.

No. As I told the Welsh Grand Committee last November, I have asked the agency to give priority to factory building, provision of infrastructure, and derelict land clearance, rather than investment.

Can the Secretary of State confirm that, in a letter of 24 January, all the counties in Wales were informed that it was unlikely that any new projects for land reclamation would be authorised in this calendar year? How much, if any, of the £48 million allocation will now be available for land reclamation?

I cannot give an answer to the last question. I expect that expenditure on land reclamation will be more in total than it was in the previous year. The Welsh Development Agency is considering plans for developing industrial sites to meet the need in South Wales. Clearly, land reclamation is needed to carry schemes into effect. The Briton Ferry site is an example of an area where reclamation is required before factories can be built.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he considers that on balance a reduction in the minimum period for charitable deeds of covenant from seven to four years would result iv increased private support for the arts.

Although the overall effect is impossible to predict, there is a widely held view in the arts world that a reduction in the minimum period of charitable covenants for the purposes of tax relief would increase private support for the arts. However, any reduction would also have important consequences for other charitable bodies and for the Exchequer.

Apart from the view of the arts world and charities, is my right hon. Friend aware that the public would welcome a reduction from seven to four years? Will he encourage the Chancellor of the Exchequer to propose such a reduction?

I shall certainly encourage my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do anything that will benefit the arts. The difficulty is that some people might execute deeds of covenant for periods shorter than they otherwise would. That would result in a loss of revenue to the charity concerned. That might be balanced by others who would be encouraged by the shorter period. There is a balance. I shall convey my hon. Friend's views to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the total removal of VAT would be the simplest way to serve the best interests of all the arts throughout the kingdom?

What a wonderful thought that is. How much I regret that the hon. Gentleman's Government never did that.

In view of the slightly equivocal advice given to my right hon. Friend on whether four or seven years is right, will he be daring and suggest an experiment based on four years to see whether it provides more revenue for the arts, as I and my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) believe it will? Why does not my right hon. Friend try it?

I am always willing to be bold, but if I tried to interfere with the responsibilities of my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer my actions, experimental or otherwise, would be received with less than rapture. I shall certainly pass on those important views.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that one of the great attractions of the switch to four years is that people would tend to uprate their covenants? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the seven-year covenant remains at a fixed sum and is not reviewed during that period? That is why so many people would like to see the period changed.

That is a valid point, but it will not be quite so important once the Government have brought inflation under control and down.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what consultations he has had with the review committee on the export of art relating to the Algardi bust.

I refer the hon. Member to the answer that I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack) on Thursday 7 February.

Is there not a real mischief, which is damaging to Britain's place as the centre of the art world, if reputable auctioneers such as Christies fail to be give notice of any agreements or partnerships that are formed? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, to protect our art treasures and the reputation of our art market, it is essential that dealers ensure that they have as officers in their associations people whose behaviour and conduct are impeccable?

I can express my agreement without drawing any inferences from what the hon. Gentleman said. This matter involves a number of important technicalities which are being examined by the Department of Trade.

Will my right hon. friend please not stand in the way of the export of this bust, which is not all that brilliant?

I value my hon. Friend's opinion, but others in the art world, who are equally expert, think that this is an outstanding piece of sculpture. I have not yet been able to reach a decision because of the technical questions which are under consideration. I am most anxious to dispose of the matter as soon as they are out of the way.

The right hon. Gentleman really must do better than that. Is he aware that Agnew's did not, as required, put on the application export form the co-owners of the bust, and that even the reviewing committee was not told, as it should have been, that the three buyers, were acting in syndicate? Is it not desirable, in the right hon. Gentleman's own interests, that a decision on a prosecution be come to speedily so that there can be no appearance of his involvement in the cover-up of an illegal conspiracy?

The hon. Gentleman is his usual moderate and balanced self. I am not involved in any cover-up. The question of bringing prosecutions is for the Attorney-General and the police. Until the investigations have been completed I cannot reach a decision. As soon as the investigations are complete I shall reach an early decision.

Again, that is not good enough. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I received an answer today from the Attorney-General, in which he said that no complaint had been made to him? What is the right hon. Gentleman doing?

It is not up to me to make complaints to the Attorney-General. I am saying that it is a matter for him. If the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) is so keen that a prosecution be brought, and if he is sure of his facts, why does not he approach the Attorney-General himself?

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Waverley committee took the view that where a fully substantiated international market price has been agreed at arm's length, that price should determine an offer to be made by a British public body? Does he further agree that in this case the review committee was not equipped to pronounce on value, did not seek independent advice on value, as required by the Waverley committee, and was advised by three museum officials—a category of person who was said specifically by the Waverley committee not to be impartial?

The Waverley report, on whose recommendations our export control system is based, recommended that for every export stopped a clear market price should be specified. As a general proposition, I believe that where there is a genuine offer to purchase that must constitute the fair market price.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether, when assessing the Arts Council grant for the coming financial year, he will take into account the critical financial situation facing a number of provincial symphony orchestras such as the Bournemouth symphony orchestra.

My right hon. Friend hopes to ensure that the Arts Council will be able adequately to discharge its obligations, including support for provincial symphony orchestras.

Does the Minister accept that the Bournemouth orchestras—two in particular—give enormous pleasure to a wide range of people living in the South and West of England? Is he aware that, in general, our provincial orchestras are in difficulty? The Bournemouth orchestra is reported to be in debt to the tune of £80,000, and that debt is likely to increase rapidly. I understand that the position of the Birmingham orchestra is even worse. Is the hon. Gentleman able to assure us—the money is unlikely to come from private sources and certainly will not come from local government—that an undertaking will be given in the House that our fine provincial orchestras will not be put in jeopardy?

I am aware of the great contribution which the Bournemouth symphony orchestra makes in its part and region of the United Kingdom. I am certain that the Arts Council will do its best to maintain that level of support for the provincial symphony orchestras, taking inflation into account. I understand from correspondence that I have had with many hon. Members on both sides of the House, and from correspondence with Keith Whitmore, the general administrator of the Bournemouth orchestra, that discussions have gone into some depth with the Western Orchestral Society Limited. My door is always open to discuss the problem with members of the Arts Council and with general administrators of the symphony orchestras.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a matter for regret that orchestras such as the Bournemouth symphony orchestra have to undertake far more sessions every working year to keep their deficits down to the levels that have been quoted? Does my hon. Friend accept that even within the exigencies of the present financial situation a disproportionate amount of the Arts Council's support for classical music goes to opera houses rather than to symphony orchestras throughout the United Kingdom?

That is not a matter in which I can personally intervene. It is very much a matter for the directors of the Arts Council. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Ross) referred to private sponsorship. That is an avenue that we can explore. It must remain very much an issue for the Arts Council.

When my hon. Friend talks about sponsorship, will he bear in mind that increasingly, local firms are part of national firms, and national firms tend to sponsor national orchestras rather than local ones? Will he bear in mind that provincial orchestras, such as the Bournemouth symphony orchestra, break themselves down into small chamber groups in order to get round to serve the public in their areas in a way that no national orchestra finds possible?

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. My right hon. Friend and I believe that there are many more people—for example, many more members of the business community locally—who can be drawn into the net. That is an aspect to which we shall be giving close attention over the next few months.

We do not doubt my hon. Friend's intentions, but does he accept that unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer makes some radical moves in his forthcoming Budget private patronage, which is so necessary, will not materialise?

I hope that my hon. Friend will not purvey that gloomy view all the time. There are many avenues that we can explore. As for the outcome of the Budget, my hon. Friend will have to be as patient as I shall have to be.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that provincial theatres and opera groups, as well as orchestras, are facing difficulties? If the Government are not prepared to go all the way with my hon. Friend the Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) and accept that VAT should be removed from the arts world, will they at least agree to revert to 8 per cent. VAT, the rate which existed until the Government took office? That would be of some assistance.

I cannot give that assurance, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. It is my intention to have discussions with the various orchestras, as I intimated. I cannot guarantee that such a reduction will take place.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects next to meet the chairman of the Arts Council.

On Monday 3 March.

Is my right hon. Friend able to do anything to dispel the anxieties that are being expressed in such quarters as the Royal Shakespeare Company and the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden that the levels of Arts Council grant will bring widespread reductions in the arts next year?

I have endeavoured to do precisely that. The Royal Shakespeare Company received an increase in grant of over 15 per cent. last year. Before that it received an increase in grant of 36 per cent., and before that an increase of 35 per cent. It is now receiving about one-seventh of the Arts Council's budget. I do not think that it is doing too badly. The final announcement of the grant must be made to the House. The Government made it clear in a White Paper published in November 1979 that they hope to continue support for the arts at the same level in the coming year as they did during last year. In view of the public expenditure situation generally, that is no mean achievement.

But has the right hon. Gentleman really no comprehension of the damage done to the practice of all the arts throughout the Kingdom by the late announcement of the Arts Council's grant? When he comes to make the announcement—or whoever does—will he see that he tries to live up to the Labour Party's record of a 250 per cent. increase between 1974 and 1979?

A 250 per cent. increase over five years is not, as far as I know, a totally accurate figure. I shall have to check the hon. Gentleman's figures. If by some mischance he is right, I shall correspond with him privately. The hon. Gentleman must know that it has long been the custom, before the final figure is announced, for informal indications and guidelines to be given to the Arts Council so that it may make plans for its clients. The anxieties that have been expressed by some in the arts world have been greatly exaggerated.

When my right hon. Friend meets the chairman of the Arts Council will he be careful to stress the importance of community art, especially in rural areas, where there are not the advantages of being able to draw on the urban aid scheme, for example? This is especially important in Suffolk, where we are worried that the budget might be reduced to enable some of the more popular metropolitan budgets to be increased.

I agree that there must be a fair distribution of the money that is available. It is not for me to decide between the various projects. I am glad to say that whereas some years ago the majority of the Arts Council's money was spent in the metropolitan area, the position has been reversed and the majority of its budget is spent in the regions.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects to make an announcement about the Government's contribution towards the proposed new Turner museum.

An announcement will depend upon the decisions referred to in my answer of 24 January to the hon. Lady.

Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that while it is marvellous to have generous gifts from private donors, there is a continuing need for more support from the Government to keep the theatres and art galleries running? Is he not aware that there is an urgent need for an increased amount for the Arts Council as a whole, and for support for the arts?

The question deals with the contribution towards a proposed new Turner museum. I must remind the hon. Lady that this is a private donation by the Clore Foundation. There are many outline proposals that have still to be developed. If the hon. Lady wants to debate or discuss any other aspects of the Arts Council's grant, I shall be happy to engage in that at some future date.

Does my hon. Friend accept that everyone who is conscious of the failure to implement the terms of the Turner bequest will wish both him and my right hon. Friend success in the forthcoming negotiations? Does he agree that there is bound to be a period before any new gallery can be opened, and that during that period Somerset House would provide a magnificent setting for the Turners?

I take my hon. Friend's point. As everyone has indicated, if the Clore Foundation donation comes to fruition—everybody hopes that it will—it will make an enormous contribution to the wealth of art in this nation.

To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he expects to make the announcement of the financial allocation to the Arts Council for the financial year 1980–81.

Question No. 27.

I hope to inform this House shortly of the Arts Council's grant-in-aid for 1980–81.

I am sorry to have disturbed the right hon. Gentleman from his slumbers. Does he really think that it is fair to pretend, as he did in a previous answer, that the fact that occasionally the administrators of various of the arts bodies are given a hint as to what they will get really meets the requirement of the people practising the arts throughout the kingdom of actually knowing what the allocation is going to be?

I respectfully point out to the hon. Gentleman that if he has a question on the Order Paper he does have to ask it before I can answer it. That is the normal convention of the House. I am most grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for your helpful intervention.

When the amount of the grant is finally announced—I accept that regional arts councils have a good idea of the sorts of sums that will be allocated—will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the sums that are given to the National Theatre are published? Provincial theatres are apprehensive that an extraordinarily large amount of their grants goes to the metropolitan area, and specifically to the National Theatre.

I believe that that is the course that is followed. I shall certainly convey the request of the hon. Gentleman to the Arts Council.