asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is satisfied that a satisfactory level of cooperation in cross-border security is being maintained.

I am satisfied that co-operation between the security forces in Northern Ireland and those in the Republic has become more effective during the past year, with significant results. I am determined that the impetus should be maintained.

To what extent is that cooperation being threatened by lack of liaison between the police and Army authorities in Belfast? What new instructions in that regard will be given to the successor of the retiring security coordinator, Sir Maurice Oldfield?

Co-operation between the RUC and the Army has reached a high level, and I am entirely satisfied with it.

Is the Secretary of State aware that a further car bomb exploded in Market Hill in the southern part of my constituency only two hours ago? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that that bomb was probably manufactured in the Irish Republic? Bearing in mind that bomb incident and the major gun battles on the frontiers of South Armagh in the past few weeks, how can the right hon. Gentleman continue mouthing platitudes about increased co-operation?

I am aware of the car bomb that exploded in the hon. Gentleman's constituency about three-quarters of an hour ago, although I do not have precise details of the damage caused. I was asked whether co-operation between the security forces north and south of the border is at a satisfactory level. I believe that I am right in saying that it is much more effective than it was. It can never be said to be completely effective until the terrorist activities have been suppressed.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that terrorist activities will never be suppressed until we have full co-operation from the Irish Republic? No doubt the Secretary of State is satisfied, in his ivory tower at Hillsborough Castle or Stormont Castle, but will he accept that many ordinary soldiers and policemen are. far from satisfied that the Government are taking appropriate steps to rout out the terrorists operating from the Irish Republic?

That is not what the security forces tell me. They say that co-operation between the two security forces is at a higher level than they have ever known. They believe, as I believe, that progressively the evil of terrorism will be suppressed.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that, although he may be satisfied with bordei security and co-operation with the Irish Republic, the widows of county Fermanagh and the other border counties are not? Would not his time be better employed sealing the border effectively so that the IRA cannot cross at will?

No, Sir.

Can the Secretary of State indicate what proportion of recent incidents relate to cross-border activities? Does he agree that, instead of hon. Members indulging in generalised attacks on the Government of the Republic, they should bring forward specific instances of lack of co-operation if that is what they want rectified?

I agree with the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question. On the earlier part, I cannot give him a figure on the proportion of recent incidents, but there is no doubt that attacks continue to be mounted across the border and I am convinced that it is by the two security forces, North and South, working together that that can best be prevented.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to meet the Foreign Secretary of the Irish Republic.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to meet the Foreign Minister of the Irish Republic.

I have no immedate plans to do so.

When the Secretary of State next meets the Foreign Secretary of the Republic, will he discuss with him the land owned by the Gaelic Athletic Association which is being used by the British Forces as a helicopter base at Crossmagien?

The last time that the Foreign Secretary of the Republic and I met we discussed that matter and I was able to give him a date when the Army will no longer require any of the land owned by the GAA.

Does the Secretary of State accept that as I have said many times—though the Ulster Unionists seem to laugh at the idea—the solution to the problem of Northern Ireland is not a security solution, important as that is, but a political one? Is he aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Scotland Exchange (Mr. Parry) and I tabled our questions in order to ensure that discussions go on between the relevant parties in Northern Ireland and the Republic? In view of the many attempts that are being made to put forward new policies, can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that discussions will continue to find the ultimate political solution which will make the security solutions irrelevant?

My business is to discuss with the political leaders in the Province ways of making the political advance that both they and the whole House desire. I do not accept that I ought to discuss those matters with Ministers of the Republic, though, as I have said in the House before, because they are such neighbours it is only prudent to keep them informed of what is happening.

If view of certain remarks of Mr. Lenihan, are toe Government considering with the Government of the Republic the institution of machinery for the British Isles to further co-operation between the two States therein, without prejudice to the sovereignty of either?

When the Taoiseach met my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 21 May, they agreed that there is a unique relationship between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland. I have no doubt that they will be seeking ways of giving effect to the uniqueness of that arrangement. My primary concern is to discuss with the political leaders in the Province how we can make political advance in what is a part of the United Kingdom.

What business is it of the Government of the Irish Republic where Her Majesty's Forces operate from within the United Kingdom?

The question that I was asked concerned the GAA football pitch in Crossmaglen. It is the business of the Government of the Republic and the Ulster branch of the GAA what we do with that land.

What!

Representations had been made to Ministers in the South who asked me what was happening. I told them what was happening. We are able to return to the GAA in Cross-maglen part of its territory that we have been using in recent months.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will take steps to accelerate the constitutional integration of the Province within the United Kingdom.

No, Sir. Northern Ireland is, and will remain, part of the United Kingdom for as long as the majority of the people of Northern Ireland so wish. But the policy of the Government is to transfer powers to locally elected representatives in accordance with the principles set out in paragraphs 4 and 5 of the "Working Paper for a Conference "—Cmnd. 7763—published last November.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the different constitutional position of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom gives rise to hope among the IRA and the citizens of the Irish Republic that one day they will be able to detach Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom and unite it with the Irish Republic? Does he agree that one way to reduce the turmoil that is currently taking place in the Province would be to put beyond doubt that Northern Ireland is, and will always remain, part of the United Kingdom? Will my right hon. Friend undertake that any proposals that he brings before the House will make Northern Ireland more integrated with the United Kingdom and more like the rest of the United Kingdom, rather than less like it?

I said in my original answer that Northern Ireland is, and will remain, part of the United Kingdom for as long as the majority of those who live there so wish. I have said that on many occasions, as has my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, in the House and elsewhere. I hope that it is now established beyond doubt.

Is the Secretary of State aware that we in the Liberal Party support his policy of trying to restore powers to the people of Northern Ireland to look after their own affairs as much as possible and we hope that he will stick to his guns on that issue while he is Secretary of State?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

In view of the Government's manifesto commitment to review the government of Scotland, will the Secretary of State accept that there will be deep resentment among Scottish Members if the Government bring forward constitutional proposals for Northern Ireland before making progress on the Scottish question?

Being responsible for the affairs of Northern Ireland is quite enough for me, without getting involved in Scottish questions.

Is it the Government's policy to integrate the Irish Republic with the United Kingdom?

My understanding is that that is not the wish of the majority of the inhabitants of the Irish Republic.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his estimate of (a) the total cost and (b) the cost to public funds of the discontinuance of the gas industry in Northern Ireland.

Total capital costs associated with closure of those undertakings which have decided to cease supply of piped gas are estimated to be of the order of £78 million. The Government are committed to a scheme of assistance towards these costs. The details of the scheme are well advanced and I hope to be able to announce the complete package shortly.

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the basis for the original assessment and decision has been transformed by the staggering burden of cost—I think that the figure given by the Minister represents only part of it—and by the discovery of fresh resources?

I do not consider that what I have announced discounts the original basis on which the decision was made. The estimated cost for the pipeline today is about £120 million, compared with the rundown cost that I have announced. As regards the discovery of alternative resources, there is not an immediate prospect to enable me to justify a review of the decision.

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that the cost that he has announced, plus the grant that he would have got from the EEC, would have been enough to establish a link with the national grid? Will he remember that the 50 per cent. grant that has been promised for the change of appliances will go only to those who are not able to change their appliances without the grant, because it is the working-class people of Northern Ireland who use gas for domestic purposes?

An EEC grant would have been at only about 40 per cent. and that factor was taken into account in arriving at our original decision on the non-viability of the project. As to what the hon. Gentleman said about a possible percentage of compensation, I must remind him that neither I nor the Government have made any official statement on the matter and none will be made until we have completed the current investigation.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the change from gas to other forms of energy will bring great hardship to poverty-stricken people, particularly in Belfast, but in other areas as well? As the people had no say in the decision to end the gas supply for Northern Ireland, should not the Government bear the full cost of the change to other forms of energy? The people had no say in the decision and, therefore, should not be asked to pay anything.

I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the decision was an announcement by the Government not to invest in a gas pipeline. The decision to discontinue piped gas supplies has been a matter for the undertakings. With regard to discussions on those who are disadvantaged, I accept entirely the hon. Gentleman's strong view that they should be specially considered in any arrangements we make for compensation.

Is the Minister aware that a detailed study of the Northern Ireland gas industry is about to be published by the Northern Ireland Gas Employers Board following a thorough study by consultants of international repute? When it is published, will the Minister study it carefully and allow the House a full debate on the question?

I am obviously extremely interested in any publication offering new information on this project. No doubt this will be considered carefully by those concerned. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the question of a debate is not a matter for me.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what recent discussions have taken place between his Department and the National Coal Board regarding the use of solid fuel in the Province.

Following the reply I gave to the hon. Member on 22 November 1979, I met the senior marketing executive of the National Coal Board on 29 January 1980. We had a wide-ranging discussion on the coal situation in Northern Ireland. My officials continue to be in contact with the National Coal Board and the Northern Ireland coal trade and I remain satisfied that all possible steps are being taken to meet requirements.

Is the Minister aware that in this area of the United Kingdom market forces tend not to operate and the Government poke their nose into every convenient hole? Has the hon. Gentleman noted the recommendations made by the world coal study suggesting that between one-half and two-thirds of additional energy will need to be supplied by the coal industry? Will he ensure that coal becomes more established in those parts of Northern Ireland industry for which he is responsible, recognising the fact that when markets for coal are lost, pits shut and never reopen?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Northern Ireland is heavily dependent upon coal supplies and is a prime user of coal for energy. My answer indicates the prospects for increasing the market. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that Northern Ireland will still require the bulk of its supplies to come from the National Coal Board.

Does the Minister agree that the welcome improvement, both for transportation and the marketing of solid fuel in Northern Ireland, is in no way inconsistent with or inimical to the development in the Province of other sources of energy, where appropriate.

I agree entirely with that point.

Does the Minister appreciate that Ulster people feel they are treated as second class citizens because the cost of lighting and fuel is higher than in the rest of Great Britain and the quality of the coal, although more expensive than in Great Britain, is lower than that available in other parts of the United Kingdom? What action does he intend to take to remedy that situation?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that a consumer council is available to investigate complaints of this kind. With regard to the quality of coal, the last indication I had was that complaints were directed at coal imported from the United States and not to coal from the National Coal Board.

Will the Minister accept that the family expenditure survey showed that families in Northern Ireland spend 50 per cent. more on light and heat than their counterparts on the mainland? Does not that indicate two problems? The first is the problem of domestic heating. Will he bear in mind that coal from Great Britain is likely to prove more successful and give a better thermal value? The second problem is the cost of generating electricity. The frequent and constant rises in oil prices are making what appeared to be a good choice 10 years ago a very uneconomic one now. Bearing in mind the dual firing now being arranged at Kilroot power station, will the Minister arrange for a comparative study of generation costs between coal and oil at present prices?

With regard to the first part of the question, I accept the crucial importance of seeking to maintain in the Province energy prices that are bearable. I accept that, in many instances, they are not bearable. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that the recent coal price increase of 10·7 per cent. is comparable with that in certain other parts of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he proposes to produce his detailed proposals for constitutional changes in the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the progress of the talks considering devolution of power to Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the future constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement about constitutional development relating to the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the prospects of constitutional advance in Northern Ireland.

The Government have made good progress in developing their proposals and they will be published shortly. They will be based on the principles set out in paragraphs 4 and 5 of the working paper (Cmnd. 7763) and, I hope, will be the subject of the widest possible discussion. I am confident that they will be seen as a constructive and even-handed approach to the question of how power is to be transferred to locally elected representatives in Northern Ireland. In the meantime, the present arrangements for the government of Northern Ireland must continue and an order extending the interim period of direct rule under the Northern Ireland Act 1974 is being laid today.

rose——

Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.

Does my right hon. Friend expect to be able to bring forward one Cabinet proposal for a Government of Ireland Bill that may or may not prove acceptable to the House? Or does he intend further alternative proposals and further public discussion? Is he aware that some of us feel that it is time for a decision?

The proposals that we shall bring forward will be more narrowly focused than anything we have discussed before. There will be an opportunity for further discussions and I hope that will be taken by all parties.

Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that, since the Westminster representation from Northern Ireland will soon be on parity with the rest of the United Kingdom, there will be uproar in Scotland if he goes ahead with proposals for devolution of power for Northern Ireland but nothing is done for Scotland? As a member of the Cabinet, the right hon. Gentleman cannot escape responsibility. Will he initiate discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Leader of the House to make sure that these discussions continue in parallel?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and all other Cabinet Ministers.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that an increasing number of people, knowledgeable of the Province, both in this country and in Ireland, feel that the publication of a discussion paper at this time would not be helpful and that it would be better for the Government to continue with secret bilateral discussions and produce a White Paper in the autumn? Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his intentions of publishing a Green Paper this month?

I note what my hon. Friend says. I hope he will find that the paper we publish will indicate clearly the direction in which the Government feel that it would be right to move. There remain some areas for discussion. I am sure it is right to continue talking with the parties to see whether we can get a high level of agreement on how to move forward.

Since local government is central to giving the Northern Ireland people more control over their own affairs, is my right hon. Friend aware, from the Commissioner for Complaints, or anyone else, of widespread abuse of power by district councils? If he is, will he be ready to deal firmly with it?

Yes, of course I shall. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any precise details about the number of matters referred to the Commissioner for Complaints, or other bodies, in the past few months or year, although I know that there have been some. I can, of course, give him details, and I shall do so in writing.

Are the Government simply to publish another discussion document, or is it their intention that, if the proposals they bring forward are accepted by a majority of the representatives of the people of Northern Ireland, they will be implemented?

We shall publish the Government's proposals on the way that we think it is right to move forward. I hope that we can get a high level of agreement among the parties in Northern Ireland about the right course. We shall then come to Parliament which, in the end, has the final say.

Will the Secretary of State refute the reports in the press recently that the Government are prepared to reinstate a majority Unionist Government? Does he recognise that if the Government attempt to do that the scheme will be doomed? Does he accept that while there might be urgency over bringing about a devolved system of Government, any rushed attempt, at a half-baked arrangement which would be defeated, because of the procedures and time limits applicable in the House, would be a bitter pill and a disaster for Northern Ireland? Will the Secretary of State take whatever time is necessary to ensure that any plan put forward has some hope of success?

I am sure that it is right to take whatever time is necessary to secure the agreement of the Northern Ireland people, to whom any arangements will apply. The hon. Gentleman should not believe everything that he reads in the newspapers. I advise him to wait for our paper.

Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to consult the Northern Ireland population as well as the people who purport to represent the people's views? Is he aware that if he does not do that the potential for further disaster will be ever present? I wish the right hon. Gentleman's proposals well. May I express the hope that he will match his proposals with the common sense approach which I suggest?

I agree that we should seek to ascertain the views of people throughout the Province. It would ill-become me to suggest that any hon. Member does not represent the people who elected him. Nevertheless, I take the point. That is why I said that I hope for the widest possible discussion.

The Secretary of State said that the Green Paper will indicate the direction in which the Government hope to move. After so many months of discussion with the few parties with whom he decided to discuss the future constitution of Northern Ireland, and after being in office for 12 months, is not it high time that the Government were able to make definite proposals for constitutional progress in Northern Ireland?

We are anxious to make proposals which command general support. I have to tell the House that there is not total unanimity of view in Norhern Ireland about the way in which we should go.

May I repeat the gist of the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)? Does the Secretary of State accept that, bearing in mind the communalist policies of Northern Ireland, if there is no power-sharing, and if all is left to the Ulster Unionists, Northern Ireland's position will remain as it is?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will study our paper with great care.

Is my right hon. Friend prepared to put the minds of some people at rest by indicating whether his proposals will be on a provincial basis through the reimposition of Stormont—which would be disastrous—or are likely to be on an English, Welsh or Scottish county council basis, which would give some hope for the future?

I believe that our proposals will have close reference to the situation in Northern Ireland.

I hope that the Secretary of State is right in his last remark. When the paper is published will the House have reasonable time to study it before it is debated? Will the Secretary of State direct his attention to the editiorial in last Monday's Financial Times which makes it clear that the chances of a political initiative succeeding could be diminished while the economy is falling apart? Does he agree that too many people ignore the economic dimension of the constitution? I hope that the Secretary of State will not.

I take the point. The economic life of Northern Ireland has a great bearing on everything that we seek to do. However, I quarrel with the hon. Member when he says that the economy is falling apart. It is not. I agree that Parliament must have an opportunity to debate the proposals. I shall talk to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House about that.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

Since I last addressed the House on 8 May, 43 people have been charged with serious crimes, including seven with murder and one with attempted murder. One of those charged with murder is alleged to have been involved in the bombing of La Mon House on 20 February 1978 in which 12 people died. The four people to whom I referred on 8 May, who were arrested in the Antrim Road area of Belfast, have been charged with the murder of a soldier. Also during the period, 14 weapons have been recovered together with 2,012 rounds of ammunition.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the deep revulsion last weekend in Northern Ireland at the callous, cold-blooded shooting and killing of Councillor Turnly, a member of the Lame district council and, at the other end of the Province, at the killing of Mr. Latimer, a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment?

All the murders arouse feelings of revulsion and horror in the House and the Province. The security forces are continuing, and will continue, to do everything that they can to prevent them and to bring to justice the people who commit them. I remind the hon. Gentleman of my answer. In the last four weeks 43 people have been charged with terrorist crimes, seven of them with murder. I hope that that shows those who contemplate committing murder that they have a decreasing chance of escaping justice. No matter how long ago the murders were committed the police will continue to seek out the murderers and bring them to justice. I am glad to say that they are having increasing success. I am ready at any time to consider suggestions that particular roads across the border should be closed to inhibit the movement of terrorists.

is the Secretary of State aware that his answers this afternoon serve only to confirm that there has been no real change in security for several years. It is not time to consider new measures to deal with the hard core of terrorists who operate in Northern Ireland and to consider seriously the sealing of the border in a meaningful way?

I accept and share the anxiety of the hon. Gentleman but he must not mislead himself, or the House, by saying that there has been no change in the situation over the past three or four years. There has been a change. The situation is still deplorable. There are still too many crimes and murders but, increasingly, the expertise and efforts of the security forces are containing the activities of the terrorists.

Does the Secretary of State agree that prison officers still seem to be subject to attack? There was another attack recently although I know that additional security measures have been taken to protect prison officers. Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that those officers are receiving all the attention that they reserve from his Office?

Yes, Sir. There was a campaign a few months ago to kill prison officers. This is a completely inexplicable problem. The prison officer is a dedicated servant of the State, whose sole business is to deal with people who have been convicted by the courts. It is no concern of his why people are in prison. That they are in prison is his only motive for doing his job. I think that attacks on prison officers are particularly cowardly and deplorable.

Can my right hon. Friend say what is the percentage of terrorists recently convicted who have previously been sentenced for terrorism?

The information must be available. I do not have it in my head but I shall willingly send it on to my hon. Friend.

As there is a tendency to believe that all the murders in Northern Ireland are committed by the IRA—and one must recognise that the vast majority of them are committed by the IRA—will the Secretary of State put it on record that it is the belief of the Northern Ireland police that the people who murdered Councillor John Turnly were members of a Loyalist para-military association?

The hon. Gentleman is quite right. Terrorist activity is not confined to the Provisional IRA. But a terrorist is a terrorist and murder is murder whoever commits it. That is the basis upon which we operate.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what measures he contemplates taking in view of the withdrawal of Coastal Containers Ltd. from Warrenpoint.

The withdrawal of Coastal Containers' cross-channel service from Warrenpoint is a matter, primarily, for the Warrenpoint harbour authority. But I have discussed this matter with the authority and I understand that the authority is continuing its efforts to attract other companies to the port to make use of the facilities which are no longer being used by Coastal Containers Ltd.

Does not this regrettable setback to the expansion of this port provide an opportunity for a review of its future on a wide scale, taking account of the potential attractions of the port for cross-Channel services of a passenger and car character?

I admit that a withdrawal on this scale—roughly 20 per cent. of the volume of traffic—is a matter of concern to me and to the users and management of the port and I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that this will allow a wider review of the future of the port. But the immediate task is to seek to replace those customers who have been lost with new ones.

Why did Coastal Containers leave Warrenpoint? Was the reason financial? If it was, what aid can the Government give to attract the firm back?

Coastal Containers Ltd. left Warrenpoint due to a decline in economic traffic on the one hand and the prospect of the closure of the port of Preston on the other. It is not the policy of the Government to intervene in commercial decisions of that character.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will review his policy on cross-border roads with a view to increasing the degree of control over the traffic using them.

The Government are fully aware of the need to exercise a measure of control, in the interests of security, over cross-border traffic. The measures intended for this purpose are kept under constant review.

In the light of the concern about the use of cross-border routes will my hon. Friend look again at the position to see whether control could be improved either by moving police and Customs posts forward or by blocking roads as was done in 1961 and 1962?

The number of closures of cross-border roads is kept under constant review. A substantial number of them are already closed and we keep the matter under exactly the kind of review asked for by my hon. Friend.

Will the Minister of State pay particular attention to the point made by his hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove and Redditch (Mr. Miller) to the effect that all of these roads were, effectively, closed in the earlier campaign of 1956–1962? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I shall be responding to the invitation of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and will be furnishing him this very day with a list of those roads complete with map references?

The right hon. Gentleman's list will, of course, be considered with great interest and sympathy. Decisions in this context are taken largely on the advice of those responsible for security, namely the police and the Army. We have to evaluate the balance of advantage and disadvantage that they lay before us.