asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what amount unemployment has risen in Wales since 3 May 1979.

About 18,000, seasonally adjusted, or 34,000 unadjusted.

That is perhaps the most ominous statement that the right hon. Gentleman has so far made to Parliament. Does he know that 7,000 luckless steel workers and textile workers are now chasing fewer than 400 jobs in my constituency? Will he, therefore, take this opportunity to repudiate the now infamous Swansea speech of the Prime Minister in which the policy was promulgated that to solve our unemployment difficulties migration might be used as an instrument of policy? That truly enraged many people in Wales. Will the right hon. Gentleman give answers that give hope to our young people? Will he understand that an exodus for jobs undermines the dignity of labour? The Government must do better than this.

My right hon. Friend, speaking at Swansea, never suggested that migration was the answer to the problems. I say here and now that it is not my policy nor the policy of the Government that the problems we face in Wales should be solved by large-scale migration out of Wales.

What did she mean, then?

I have in front of me the transcript of my right hon. Friend's words. I was sitting next to her when she spoke. She spoke about people's reluctance to move even comparatively small distances. She talked at length about the measures being taken by the Government to create new jobs in Wales, the money that we are spending on sites, the generous redundancy payments and the responsibilities of Government to encourage employment to come to Wales. I repudiate entirely the implications of the hon. Gentleman's question.

rose—

Order. I appeal for shorter questions which will lead to shorter answers to questions.

Does not the security of employment of Wales in the future depend on people leaving jobs in obsolescent industries and moving into good jobs in new industries? Does my right hon. Friend consider that the resources available to the Welsh Development Agency to help provide new jobs are adequate to meet the present situation?

The WDA is currently building, or starting to build, nearly 3½ million sq ft of factory space in this financial year. To enable it to provide even more resources, it is today announcing that it has secured an arrangement with Norwich Union Insurance for the injection of a further 5½ million in addition to the £3 million promised by the National Coal Board pension fund. That, together with the sale of other factories, will produce an additional £10 million of resources over the next two years.

Last July the Secretary of State and his friends downgraded Swansea for regional development purposes. Since that time, the unemployment rate has risen to 10·1 per cent. and is deteriorating so it will certainly rise to 12 per cent. by next May. Does not this situation justify reconsideration of Swansea's regional development status?

We made it clear when the last upgradings were announced that we would keep the position of Swansea under review. It has to be compared with similar unemployment problems elsewhere. As we are operating a regional policy that is based on consistency of treatment between different parts of the United Kingdom, Swansea must expect its problems to be examined in relation to similar problems in other parts of the United Kingdom.

In view of the serious unemployment in mid-Wales, to which areas of Wales does the Secretary of State advise school leavers to go to look for work?

I am glad to say that there are opportunities, even in these difficult times. When I was asked a question earlier this year about the number of advance factories in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, five were unoccupied. I am glad to say that four of them were filled this year and we are building another six.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the appalling unemployment statistics owe a great deal to the previous Government's lack of foresight in tackling serious industrial problems that could have been handled more easily?

Serious though the increase in unemployment is, it has risen less sharply since we came into government than in the first 12 months of the Labour Government's period in power. The then Prime Minister said simply and unequivocally:

"It is caused by paying ourselves more than the value of what we produce."

Does the Secretary of State feel no shame whatsoever that he has pushed unemployment in Wales to the highest level since the 1930s, knowing that it is bound to go still higher? Does he realise that, according to an answer from his Department on Friday, 60,202 redundancies have been declared in Wales, the equivalent of 200 each working day since the Government came to office? Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the forecast by the Cambridge economic policy group that by 1983 unemployment in Wales will rise to 15 per cent., or 167,000? Is he truly proud of his role at the last election as the political Judas goat who led the people of Wales into this misery?

The first priority, if we are to avoid even higher unemployment, is to defeat the inflation which to a considerable extent was unleashed by the previous Government's spending policies. The former Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if wage rises exceeded the 5 per cent. level asked by the previous Government, massively rising unemployment would be caused. The Opposition have helped to encourage such wage increases and we are now suffering the unemployment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the ratio in the two previous years.

The ratio was 21·9 to 1 in January 1980 compared with 22 to 1 a year earlier and 22·6 to 1 in 1978.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the figures show a satisfactory improving trend? Do they not belie the Opposition's propaganda of gloom and despondency about education in Wales?

Yes, indeed. Pupil-teacher ratios are at their best ever level. In 1979 the pupil-teacher ratio in English primary schools was 23·1 to 1 and in Wales 22 to 1.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will seek a meeting with the new chairman of the British Steel Corporation to discuss the impact of steel closures on employment in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent discussions with the British Steel Corporation concerning the steel industry in South Wales; and what proposals he has for the employment of redundant steel workers.

I met the chairman most recently on 7 July. There will be further meetings as necessary. The remedial measures that I have announced will result in the provision of 2¼ million sq ft of factory space with the potential for between 7,000 and 9,000 jobs and 600 acres prepared for industrial development, all in steel closure areas in Wales. The Shotton travel-to-work area has been upgraded and decisions have been taken to upgrade the Port Talbot and Newport travel-to-work areas and the Cwmbran employment exchange areas.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the report in today's Financial Times which suggests that the chairman of the British Steel Corporation might recommend the closure of Port Talbot and/or Llanwern because of the steel crisis? Will he give an assurance that at this point he has no knowledge whatever of any such proposal? May we have an assurance that if such a proposal were forthcoming without prior discussion with him he would resign his post?

I can give the assurance that I am not aware of any such proposal. Indeed, the chairman of the BSC, when he came to see me, made it absolutely clear that he had not yet taken decisions and that he wished to assess the situation fully before he took such decisions. He said that such decisions were still some little time away.

Does the Secretary of State agree that many influential reports state that the steel industry is in a catastrophic position? Does he accept that Wales has relied heavily on the industry in the past? What advice has he to offer redundant steel workers? Where are the Eldorados with new jobs and new opportunities? Does he agree that the Prime Minister in Swansea was talking sheer bunkum?

I agree that the situation in the British Steel Corporation is extremely serious. That is why we are making special provision in the hon. Gentleman's constituency and other affected constituencies. The Welsh Development Agency is announcing a further 184,000 sq ft of factory building in Newport under an agreement with Wimpey. That is in addition to the factory space already announced in that constituency. The number of factory allocations this year and the number of visits are at high levels. That shows that continuing investment and new job opportunities are still arising in Wales.

Is not the catastrophic plight of the British steel industry, particularly in Wales, due in large measure to the refusal by the previous Government in 1975 to permit the British Steel Corporation to slim itself down into a competitive position?

Undoubtedly the British Steel Corporation is not in a competitive position. I fear that one of the reasons is that decisions to match the record of its competitors overseas were put off.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the Government have a bland complacency about the level of unemployment in Wales? Is he not aware that at this moment negotiations are taking place and that the British Steel Corporation is intent on the further purchase of foreign coal to the detriment of employment in Wales and the coalfields in South Wales? Does the right hon. Gentleman not feel some sense of shame that he bears the title of Secretary of State for Wales while attached to a Government who seem hell bent on working against the interests of Wales?

I cannot believe that the hon. Gentleman thinks that it is in the interests of the British Steel Corporation, if it is to be competitive, to buy uncompetitive coal.

May I ask the Secretary of State a question arising out of that asked by the hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Wigley)? Will he say categorically that, if he is not consulted by the British Steel Corporation about future steel industry closures in Wales, he will resign his office?

All that I can say is that the new chairman of the British Steel Corporation, like his predecessor, is punctilious about keeping me informed. When the chairman came to see me recently he told me that it would take him quite a long time to make his assessment of the British Steel Corporation's prospects and that he had not yet taken decisions.

Does the Secretary of State accept that if, after allowing the closure of Shotton, he allows one or both of the great modern steelworks at Llanwern and Margam to close, it will be a blow as bitter and with as lasting a political impact as the decision by Churchill to send troops against the miners? The right hon. Gentleman is supposed to be the voice of Wales in the Cabinet. We have heard about amicable discussions. Has he taken any action to prevent the closure of either of those steelworks? Most important, if the chairman eventually recommends that one or both should close, does he intend to take action against such a decision?

I shall want to see whether the chairman of the British Steel Corporation puts up proposals for a strong and viable future industry that can provide jobs. The closures are being contemplated today, at least in part, because the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues put off the necessary decisions about closures.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new hospitals are under construction in Wales; and whether he is satisfied with the rate at which they are being completed.

Major new hospital development is under way at Bangor, Newport and Bridgend. Substantial improvements and developments are being carried out at Bronllys in Powys, Griffithstown in Gwent and Velindre in Cardiff. Work on the planned new hospitals at Morriston and Wrexham is expected to start this financial year. The rate of progress on all these schemes has been generally satisfactory. Among smaller schemes in the pipeline, planning is in progress to replace the Adelina Patti hospital at Ystradgynlais in my hon. Friend's constituency.

While progress on all these hospital schemes is most pleasing, I hope that my hon. Friend will pay particular attention to the great need in rural Wales for small local community hospitals which serve a large proportion of total needs and which are much appreciated.

I can give my hon. Friend assurances on that point. This is, primarily, a matter for the area health authorities. My hon. Friend will know that in his own constituency it is planned to replace the Adelina Patti hospital with a new community hospital at Ystradgynlais.

Will the Minister state what hope, and promises, he has for the 33 per cent. of the electorate of the Carmarthen constituency who regard Llanelli as their main centre for hospital treatment? There was a complete absence in his answer of any reference to Llanelli. When will Llanelli and that area have a district general hospital up to the standard of district general hospitals in the rest of Dyfed?

I think that the hon. Gentleman knows that we recently approved the development of a new hospital on a green field site at Bryngwynmawr with a first phase costing between £16 million and £17 million. Present indications are that the earliest possible start on site will be towards the end of 1983.

What proposals does the Minister have about the revenue consequences for the coming financial year for area health authorities in Wales of these new hospital expansion plans? Can he assure us that the result of building new hospitals will not be a reduction in the health care services outside the new district general hospitals?

The hon. Gentleman knows that the Welsh Office takes care of the revenue consequences of opening a new hospital and gives the necessary financial support.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures for unemployment in Wales; and how many unemployed are under 25 years of age.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, what is the latest level of youth unemployment in Wales.

Total unemployment was 116, 839 on 10 July 1980. No age analysis is yet available, but the number of school leavers included in the total was just over 19,000.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that young people in Wales have very few job opportunities at present? Will the Secretary of State ask the Prime Minister to withdraw her statement in Swansea that if people were not willing to move as their fathers did the economy could not thrive? It was offensive to the people of South Wales—when we remember that their uncles and relatives had to emigrate to England in the past in order to get jobs—to tell them that, once again, they must leave Wales to find jobs. Why do not the Government bring the jobs back to Wales?

We are increasing resources to deal with the problems of young school leavers. In the speech referred to by the hon. Member, my right hon. Friend spoke of

"reallocating resources where needed to mitigate the hardship of the unemployed."

"it is the Government's job to try to mitigate the effects of change, to try to give people a chance and opportunity to take new jobs; some to move to them, some jobs to move to the people—all of them willing and able to adapt to the new technologies, the new products without which there can be no success for Wales or for Britain."

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I have been told by British Rail that at the moment there are 10,000 unfilled job vacancies with the railways?

In Wales?

Yes, including a considerable number in Wales. Will my right hon. Friend, therefore, make sure that this information, assuming that we all consider British Rail to be a good employer, is available to those who are looking for work in Wales?

Of course I shall ensure that the information is made available. Many job opportunities are available at any one time. Many people are moving into new jobs and a considerable proportion of school leavers who have joined the roll immediately on leaving school will get jobs in the coming months. Those who do not will be covered by the guarantee given by the Manpower Services Commission to provide them with a place under the youth opportunities programme.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that young people in Wales do not need any help from the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley)? We want jobs in Wales. Will the Secretary of State repudiate any thoughts or ideas of the Prime Minister about the migration of our people from Wales because this is an obscenity being perpetrated upon the young people of Wales? Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House how he feels about being a record breaker among Secretaries for Wales in relation to the present level of unemployment in Wales? Is he not ashamed of that?

I am a record breaker in the amount of resources I am devoting to the task of creating new factories and new factory spaces in Wales. It must be self-evident, even to the hon. Gentleman, that if we create new factory locations people must be prepared to move, perhaps short distances, to work in them.

Now he has said it.

Is it not a fact that the way to safeguard jobs is to provide new jobs with a future and not to go on supporting jobs in industries which are, inevitably, obsolescent?

There is no doubt that if we are to emerge from these problems, which affect not only Wales but the whole of the United Kingdom, we must be prepared to adapt to change and fill the jobs in the new growing industries. That must mean flexibility and a new approach to these problems. The Government have shown that they recognise that they have a major part to play in assisting the process of change.

When representatives of the Welsh Office appeared before the Select Committee in March, they declared that the Government's immediate and long-term objective was to stem the flow of outward migration. When did that policy change? Since we assume, as we must, that the Secretary of State was not attempting to deceive the Select Committee when he appeared before it and did not tell it of this major change of policy, was he told of the Prime Minister's speech? Or was the Secretary of State being treated with the contempt that is implied in other matters? Is he regarded as a dogsbody in that the Prime Minister does not even tell him when she is about to insult Wales as she did in her speech advocating migration?

The hon. Gentleman is always very eloquent. It is a pity that before he attacks someone's speech he does not read what was said. If he did that his words might carry more conviction. More people came to live in Wales last year than left Wales.

Does the Secretary of State realise that it is absolutely no good trying to wriggle and to withdraw the statements that we all know were made by the Prime Minister? Those statements were reiterated last week by the Secretary of State for Employment. Was the right hon. Gentleman consulted before the statement by the Secretary of State for Employment or the Prime Minister? If not, that fact confirms that the right hon. Gentleman is simply a makeweight in Cabinet. If the right hon. Gentleman was informed, and if the Prime Minister's speech is a confirmation of advice that he gave, he has absolutely no right to represent the people of Wales in Cabinet. The only thing he can do, with any honour, is to pack his bags and go.

If, as I gather, the right hon. Gentleman seeks to argue that, in the face of major industrial change, there should not be some mobility, that says very little for the ability of our country to adapt to the changes that are taking place in the world. If we follow the right hon. Gentleman's advice we will not be able to compete in the world and we shall have even higher unemployment. Those are the policies he advocates.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of that unsatisfactory reply I give notice that I intend to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans to give extra financial aid to the Development Board for Rural Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I have no present plans to do so.

I am very disappointed with that reply. Will the Secretary of State now consider helping the self-employed, the small businesses and agriculture in mid-Wales by persuading the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lower the minimum lending rate forthwith in order to ensure that those industries survive?

The prime objective of the reductions that are taking place in public expenditure and public borrowing is to bring interest rates down. They have started to come down and I have no doubt that that process will continue in the coming months.

Does my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating the Development Board for Rural Wales on the magnificent job that it is doing? Does he join me in congratulating the DBRW on making sure that Newtown and Welshpool have one of the lowest unemployment figures in Wales? It is well below the national average. Does my right hon. Friend further acknowledge that Powys has increased its population by 70 per cent. and that the movement has been from England into Wales in the last few years? Does he share my hope that that course will continue?

I congratulate the DBRW, as I have done on previous occasions, on the work that it is doing. At present, it is constructing more than 100,000 sq ft of advance factory space throughout its area, and it is continuing to encourage the arrival of new employment in the area.

When does the Secretary of State intend to restore the £3 million cut in the board's budget which he made in the current financial year?

I made no cut in the budget. I continued the expenditure broadly in line with what had been provided for in the previous Government's PESC plans. Characteristically, the previous Government did not provide the funds in their PESC plans which they had announced for the future. In fact, in the previous year, they made some supplementary provision when they had underspent in other programmes.

What proposals does the right hon. Gentleman have in respect of those areas of rural Wales which are not fortunate enough to be included in the DBRW's location?

The Welsh Development Agency carries on its operations throughout Wales, and it covers those parts that are not covered by the DBRW. One of the consequences of the announcement that I made earlier about the additional private sector finance which is to be injected into the WDA—I hope that this will merely be a first step in this direction—will be to enable additional resources to be allocated to parts of Wales outside the steel closure areas.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to ensure that employment is available for the redundant steelworkers and others within the Ogmore constituency; and by what date this employment will be available.

The Welsh Development Agency is building 250,000 sq ft of factory space in the Ogmore constituency over the next two years, with a potential of between 750 and 1,000 jobs. This is in addition to the estimated 2,400 manufacturing jobs in the pipeline for the Port Talbot travel-to-work area over the next three to four years. It is not possible to give an estimate for the constituency itself, but it does form a substantial part of the travel-to-work area.

It is no wonder that the Secretary of State calls himself a record breaker, because he has broken records in Ogmore. Ogmore had a growth area in Bridgend. The right hon. Gentleman has now committed industrial rape in the area. Last Friday, I received the unemployment figures from the Bridgend job centre. They total 4,000, and 500 students are registered as unemployed, a 1 per cent. increase since June. What will the right hon. Gentleman do about this, and how can those people find jobs within Wales?

I know that Bridgend is one of the most attractive locations in South Wales and that new jobs are being created there. I visited Ford of Bridgend last week and saw its successful programme. With the co-operation of the labour force it is close to expanding. I could refer to a number of other successes if I had the time.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, further to his reply to the hon. Member for Gower, Official Report, 30 June, column 411, if he will make a statement on the contents of the report which he received of the meeting between his officials and representatives of the British Steel Corporation in Wales, with particular reference to the tin plate industry.

The meeting covered the short-term problems for tin-plate as a result of the present fall in demand.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the tinplate section of the British Steel Corporation has consistently operated at a profit over the years? Is he further aware that the BSC has recently announced that the industry, which is located in my constituency, will operate on a shorter working week because of lack of supplies of continuous casting quality steel, a full supply of which it has been unable to get from the BSC? As a result, that quality steel is now imported. As Secretary of State, will he institute an inquiry in the light of the seriousness of this situation?

My understanding—certainly from the information that has been given to me by the BSC—is that the present short-time working and temporary arrangements are being made not because of the shortage of suitable steel, although some is being imported, but because of the serious collapse of the market. The BSC is attempting to mitigate this situation by temporary short-time working during the summer months in the hope that the market will improve in the autumn.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have it in writing that the statement which I made is correct?

It is quite true that the BSC has chosen to import some steel, because in some of the new techniques for making cans it is necessary to have con-cast steel, which has not been immediately available from the BSC. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the general reason for the slowdown in the tinplate operation at present arises from the condition of the market rather than from the inadequacy of supplies.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate his Department has made of the number of firms and employees at present on short-time working in Wales.

It is estimated that at 30 June 1980, just over 19,000 workers were being supported under the temporary short-time working compensation scheme.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that that might not include large numbers of work people who are expected to take additional unpaid holidays because of the absence of orders? Will not the right hon. Gentleman go down in the record book not only as the Secretary of State who has served in office during the highest level of unemployment since the 1930s, but also as the Secretary of State who was responsible for the greatest number of people on a three-day working week since 1973, when we last had a Conservative Secretary of State for Wales?

Clearly, if firms have not applied for the temporary short-time working compensation scheme but are using other methods at present, those figures will not be included. What Wales is now suffering from are the consequences of a worldwide recession and the necessity to move away from the high inflation rates that were unleashed by the policies of previous Governments, including the Government of which the hon. Gentleman was a member.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in my constituency 1,300 textile workers are going on short time, as are 3,000 steel workers, because it appears that the Government refuse to peg the strong pound, thus undermining the export trade of those industries? Can he give any news of a major job project for a black spot such as my own in order to create new jobs? Will he also give the undertaking that he does not expect any young people or families in my constituency to leave their homes in order to find work elsewhere?

I have made it quite clear that we do not advocate general large-scale migration as a solution to the problem, although there will have to be mobility of labour in the hon. Gentleman's constituency as elsewhere. I do not think that his other points arise from a question about the temporary short-time working compensation scheme.

When this scheme comes to an end, the many thousands on short-time working are likely to be on the dole, along with 117,000 others. In view of that, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the estimate given by the Welsh Office to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs of a peak unemployment rate of 125,000? What is his latest estimate of the likely unemployment rate in Wales?

I have never made unemployment forecasts, and I do not propose to do so now.

The right hon. Gentleman is wise to take that position. However, does he realise the importance of the figures that he has just given? In addition to the post-war record of 116,800 fully unemployed, there are now 19,000 partially unemployed. Is not it a fact that unless urgent action is taken on interest rates and sterling, most of those 19,000 people will finish up in the hopelessness of a Welsh dole queue? When about 15,000 unregistered unemployed or people on short-time working are added, do not the figures show that more than 150,000 Welsh workers are already feeling the poisonous bite of the Government's economic policies, with the coal and steel redundancies still to be added?

We know that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues have always been loth to follow consistent policies for the good of our economy. It is clear that if we are to get interest rates down and produce the economic conditions for new investment and the creation of new jobs, we must persist with the Government's strategy. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman thinks that reducing interest rates is one of the highest priorities; I therefore hope that he will support the policies that will make that possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to announce the route of the Conwy river crossing section of the dual carriage A55 road.

I have decided that the new A55 trunk road should cross the Conwy estuary in a tunnel. I have reached this decision following the most careful consideration of a report by consulting engineers, a personal inspection of the area and in the light of the numerous representations that I have received in favour of a tunnel. I am placing copies of the consultants' report in the Library of the House. The route that I am adopting as my preferred route is that described in the report as the "green tunnel route".

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be a cheer in North Wales for the courage and decisiveness that he has displayed on this occasion? Is he further aware that by his decision he has made it possible for industry and tourism to contemplate North Wales with both confidence and hope?

It will be a major scheme to improve the infrastructure of North-West Wales. It involves the construction of a submerged tube tunnel. It will be the first time in Britain that a tunnel of that sort and on that scale has been attempted. The project will also ensure the preservation of Conwy castle and the town halls, which have a unique place in the architectural heritage of Europe.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, in the light of the latest unemployment figures, to where he would advise Welsh workers to move to find jobs.

I hope, to other jobs in Wales where the Government are making a major effort to provide new job opportunities.

The Secretary of State must be aware that housing is a major obstacle to mobility. He must be further aware of the extreme sensitivity in Wales about that issue. As the Welsh people turn to him and to his Department for help with jobs, will he seek to restrain the heartless latter-day Marie Antoinette who is trying to close down Wales?

The greatest single contribution that we can make to housing in relation to mobility is the sale of council houses. The legislation to make that possible will be finalised within days.

As a Welshman driven out of Wales, may I ask the Secretary of State to put in the Official Report a detailed list of jobs that are vacant in Finchley, Lowestoft and other ministerial constituencies where Welsh coal miners and tin workers can find jobs? Is he aware that I have been looking for them in West Ham but that I cannot find any?

The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that job opportunities are available in all parts of the country, including the South-East. People are taking jobs every day of the week. There is a large turnover within employment and the unemployment figures that are quoted, with a large number of people going into new jobs.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unemployment figures for Wales; and what steps he proposes to take to reduce this level.

Total unemployment was 116,839 on 10 July 1980. That figure will begin to come down when inflation is reduced and industrial competitiveness improves.

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind that one of the most effective actions that he could take to reduce the level of unemployment in Wales and the danger of further unemployment would be to lean upon the British Steel Corporation to change its purchasing policies on the importation of foreign coal? Will he take this opportunity to make up for the fact that he, no doubt inadvertently, failed to answer an earlier question, and now say whether he is aware of BSC negotiations for the formulation of new contracts to purchase more imported coal from America? Will he please give a straight answer?

Negotiations are taking place between the BSC and the National Coal Board on those issues. Whatever solution is found between those two nationalised industries, it clearly cannot be in the interests of saving jobs in the steel industry if the BSC has to buy coal at uncompetitive prices. The greatest single destroyer of jobs is the fact that firms and industries are uncompetitive.

As the Prime Minister evidently takes the view that to reduce unemployment in Wales people should migrate, may I again ask the Secretary of State a straight question, to which I ask him to give a straight reply? Was he told about the change of policy advocating migration? When he appeared before the Select Committee, did he know that there was a change of policy? Was he told about the Prime Minister's declaration of policy?

There has been no change of policy. Because there is no policy of migration, the other questions simply do not arise.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the outward migration from Wales in the latest year for which figures are available.

It is estimated that in the period July 1978 to June 1979 53,200 people left Wales. In the same period there was an inflow of 58,700. There was thus a net increase of 5,500.

Will the Secretary of State give an age breakdown of the migration flows? How many skilled workers who left Wales, along with their families, are included in that 53,000? How many more workers does the Prime Minister expect to leave Wales following the advice that she gave at Swansea?

Information on the age of migrants is available only from the 1971 census. In 1970–71 there was a net flow of 770 persons over working age, 510 persons of working age and 170 persons under working age. I am afraid that more recent figures are not available.

Does the Secretary of State realise that the young people of Wales will ignore completely what the Prime Minister said about leaving Wales? Is he aware that they will take less notice of her than the Olympic athletes did who went to Moscow to win gold medals?

In her speech the Prime Minister did not urge that people should leave Wales. She recognised that it was the job of Government to mitigate the effects of change. She said that it would be unforgivable if we neglected a single, practical and sensible method to reduce unemployment.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there are 107,000 unemployed on Merseyside, that in the past workers from Merseyside went to North Wales to find employment, and that now, as my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mr. Jones) said, Shotton is a black spot? Where will the workers go, in either direction? Is it not clear that there are no jobs either in North Wales or on Merseyside, and that there is no future for the workers?

The hon. Gentleman is confirming that we are dealing with a United Kingdom economy, and that within the United Kingdom there must be some movement and some flexibility. He has given the lie totally to the suggestion made repeatedly this afternoon that, in some extraordinary way, an attack has been made on Wales and Welsh workers. There must be mobility within the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that people are coming on and off the unemployment register and going into jobs all the time.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends next to meet the Council for the Principality to discuss the economic situation in Wales.

I have no present plans to do so.

When the Secretary of State eventually meets the Council will he explain how 60,000 redundancies—1,000 a week since the Government came to office—in some mysterious way improve our economic prospects? As he says that the Prime Minister's blunder was not a blunder, and that mobility was meant to be within Wales—although some was meant to be within Britain—will he say clearly where in Wales should the unemployed go to find jobs? If he thinks that they should go outside Wales, will he say where?

The right hon. Gentleman appears to ignore entirely the fact that, although the unemployment figures are too high, a large number of people are going into new jobs every day of the week. Of those on the unemployment register, only a proportion are on it for long periods. He should not seek to give the impression that there are not job opportunities in Wales, as in other parts of Britain.

Is not unemployment a widespread phenomenon throughout the industrial world? Are not the countries best placed to deal with it those that have mastered their inflation? Are not the regions best qualified to attract new industries those that show the greatest readiness to adapt to new conditions?

I am absolutely certain that that is right. Because great change is taking place in Wales at present, because we are preparing the industrial sites and providing the industrial locations on an unprecedented scale, and because we have excellent communications, I feel sure that many new jobs will be created in Wales in the coming year.

Will the Secretary of State now give us an answer to one simple, straightforward question? Where in Wales is there such a surplus of vacancies over unemployed that it is desirable that the unemployed from other parts of Wales should move into those areas?

Earlier this afternoon I was asked a question about Bridgend. There are new expansion projects taking place on those industrial estates—at Ford, Sony and elsewhere—that are at present providing job opportunities for those outside the immediate locality. There are many other examples. There are the factories that have been filled in the constituency of the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Howells), and the factories that are being filled at the heads of the valleys. The right hon. Gentleman will be doing a grave disservice—to be added to the many others that he has rendered—if he suggests that there are not job opportunities for people in Wales.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he is satisfied with the provision contained in Cmnd. 7841 for expenditure on library services.

Yes, Sir.

How can the right hon. Gentleman be satisfied with figures showing that the Government will impose a cut in real terms of 18 per cent. on the expenditure on local authority libraries in the programme that the Government inherited? How can he defend the barbarian priorities of a Government who impose that kind of cut on the main facilities which provide the principal contact with the arts for millions of people outside the West End of London? Why was his Prime Minister able to go to the Royal Academy and have the brass neck to misrepresent the expenditure on libraries as showing an increase over the next five years?

The hon. Gentleman is exaggerating. As the White Paper on Public Expenditure shows that provision for the arts and libraries in Great Britain will fall from £383 million this year to £370 million in 1982–83 and 1983–84, that is a reduction of only 3⅓ per cent. in the overall arts budget. By comparison with cuts in other spheres of public services, the arts are not doing too badly.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what is important is not always simply the expenditure on library services but the time taken to make the decisions? He will know of my interest in the Southampton university library. The Royal Commission on Historical Manuscripts, after 15 months, has not come to a decision whether that famous library should or should not have the Wellington papers. Will he at least take away the message that we need a decision before too long?

The expenditure on local libraries is determined by local authorities.

Will the right hon. Gentleman give a specific assurance to the House that he will steadfastly oppose any introduction of charges for the borrowing of books from libraries? [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] Because it is on the cards.

It is not on my cards. [Interruption.] I am glad to have that unsolicited tribute. The Government are totally opposed to an introduction of library charges. I hope my reply will lay that bogy finally to rest. And, please—no more applause from my claque.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster when he last met members of the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts.

I last met the Director of ABSA and representatives of companies who subscribe to that association at the reception that I gave, with your gracious permission, Mr. Speaker, in your State Rooms on 16 July.

Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the progress being made with ABSA? Is he aware that there are seven theatres dark in the West End at present and that a large number of small theatres up and down the country are urgently in need of help that the Arts Council cannot provide? Does he not think that ABSA will support only those projects that are likely to be profitable and that it will not support new or experimental work? How does this cut across the right hon. Gentleman's committee of honour that he recently set up?

I know of the hon. Lady's interest in the theatre and I share her concern about the future of the London theatre, about the number of theatres that are dark, and about the position outside London. However, the activities of ABSA will undoubtedly be beneficial in this direction. ABSA does not sponsor projects directly, but since the Government gave a grant to ABSA of £25,000 to further its work, its membership has grown from 58 to 88 companies, and I think that the theatre will benefit.

Will the right hon. Gentleman use his eclectic contacts to provide harmless and inexpensive incentives, so that sponsors might at least be in line for the same honours and Royal garden parties, for keeping theatres open, that are currently accorded to people who have worked in theatres for 20, 30 or 40 years?

The question of honours is not totally within my control. If services are given through sponsorship, it is legitimate for the hon. Member to suggest that they should be recognised in some way. I would welcome that.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that he deserves the congratulations of all those who are concerned about the arts on the vigorous efforts he has been making to get further substantial private sponsorship for all manner of arts projects? Can he give the House any further information about the progress that he has made?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those generous words. I am satisfied that the campaign to promote business sponsorship of the arts is making excellent progress. I am not in a position to give a statistical report on the matter but I am sure, from the evidence I have already received, that the campaign is successful. I emphasise that it is to supplement public support for the arts and not to replace it.

Nevertheless, will the right hon. Gentleman admit that, despite all his earnest entreaties, the truer figure for business sponsorship, which he puts at £4 million to £5 million a year, is in reality less than £3 million, as established in detailed research at the London Business School? Will he, in all responsibility, set up an investigation to establish the actual figure for the money coming in from business sponsorship?

The figure of £4 million to £5 million is not my figure; it is the ABSA figure. It has recently been called into question by research which shows that the sum is closer to £3 million. I am happy to respond to the hon. Gentleman's suggestion and will shortly be setting in hand research in this area, because it is important to know the precise amount. What is important now is not the amount of existing sponsorship but how to increase it. Whether the figure is £4 million or £3 million, I want to see it doubled this year.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will take further steps to support the provision of live orchestral music.

My responsibility in this field is to provide resources to the Arts Council, which allocated some £3·5 million in 1979–80 towards the direct support of orchestras. The council has the question of support for live orchestral music and the rest of the live arts under continuous review.

Will my hon. Friend agree that the accommodation reached between the BBC and the Musicians' Union, under the inspiration of Lord Goodman, is good news for British music? But will he also make it plain on all occasions that there will need to be continuing support from all sources, whether from public bodies, private business or the listening audience, if live orchestral music is to survive the present recession without further losses?

I echo the tribute paid by my hon. Friend to Lord Goodman. One can only hope that the proposed settlement of the musicians' strike will be approved by members of the Musicians' Union. I hope that the private sponsorship of orchestral live music, live art, which has occurred in recent months, will be continued. There are many good examples. My hon. Friend was right to highlight this important consideration.

What does "under continuous review" mean in this context? What practical help will the Government provide?

. The increase in the Arts Council's grant has been steadily improved over the years. The Arts Council continuously reviews all the aspects that I listed. The Government, whilst maintaining an arm's length stance, acknowledge the important contribution of the Arts Council. There is a continuous review, as I said.