asked the Secretary of State for Wales by how much unemployment has risen in Wales since May 1979.

Between May 1979 and October 1980 the number of people registered as unemployed in Wales, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, increased by about 35,900.

Will the right hon. Gentleman say why he has failed to pro- tect the Welsh textile industry against redundancies and damaging imports? Why has he not safeguarded the interests of the paper making industry in North-East Wales and at Bowaters where my constituents work? Will he undertake to fight in the Cabinet for energy subsidies for the textile and paper making industries?

On textiles, it is the Government's policy to enforce the multi-fibre arrangement as tightly as possible and to take action through the EEC, GATT, and other agreements, to ensure that every measure is taken under these international agreements. The Government offered substantial financial assistance for the modernisation of the Bowater plant with the object of putting it into a condition where it could compete effectively. I regret to say that those proposals were not acceptable to Bowater.

Will my right hon. Friend emphasise to his Cabinet colleagues, when the Government are considering new methods of promoting industrial development in the United Kingdom, the degree to which Wales as a whole, and the industrial parts of Wales in particular, have suffered from the contraction and the closing down of so many units in the old traditional industries? Will he make this a case for promoting a lot of new industry to take its place?

I have done so repeatedly. That is why the Government have announced a major package of measures to improve the infrastructure and to assist the arrival of the new industries that my hon. Friend seeks. My hon. Friend will know that, in connection with the Inmos project, for example, I intend to seek to launch a significant new initiative in training for the new skills that will be required. If we are to exploit the opportunity that Inmos provides, and attract similar industries to the area, we have to make sure that we can provide the services and the skills that those people will be seeking.

Does the Secretary of State accept that there is a substantial additional cost to the Government when people become unemployed? For an average industrial employee with a wife and two children, this amounts to £5,920 in the first year of unemployment. Does not the right hon. Gentleman believe that it is crazy in these circumstances to be making people unemployed and that Government policy should be to maintain people in employment?

There is an expense that arises due to the reason that the hon. Gentleman has set out, although I do not necessarily accept the specific figure that he mentions. The Government have to take a balance between the desire to ease the burdens on industry generally by reducing public expenditure and the specific benefits that are payable to those who lose their jobs. If one seeks artificially to create jobs that are not producing goods that can be sold, one is placing additional burdens on other parts of industry and destroying jobs elsewhere.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, at a time when unemployment is mounting alarmingly in every industrialised country, Wales' best chance of keeping and attracting new jobs is to establish and maintain a good reputation for labour relations? Has my right hon. Friend received any encouragement from the Labour Party to suggest that it will consult trade unions in an endeavour to maintain that good reputation in Wales?

During my American visit I discovered that many American companies operating in Wales had a very high opinion of the labour relations in their operating plants, I welcomed the presence of the chairman of the Wales TUC, John Griffiths, on that mission. He is playing his part in telling the right story. On the bad side of the equation, our record on big construction projects is doing us some harm. I emphasise how important it is that we improve that one aspect, which spoils our reputation in Wales today.

We understand why the right hon. Gentleman chose to use the seasonally adjusted figures; it was because the actual increase is about 46,000. The increase in unemployment of 55 per cent. is the end product of the right hon. Gentleman's achievements in Wales. Can he confirm the report in today's issue of the Western Mail that he has said that there is no alternative? If he believes that there is no alternative to the Government's policies, he must be the only person in Wales who does. Even his friends in the CBI are now deserting him. At a recent conference in Cardiff they called for a number of things, including a massive reduction in interest rates. What does the right hon. Gentleman think is the effect in Wales of high interest rates?

The right hon. Gentleman has asked his usual series of questions. Our decision to give the answer in the form in which it was given—seasonally adjusted—follows the practice followed by successive Governments, including the right hon. Gentleman's own. It was always the practice of his Government to give the figures in that way. Apparently only two choices are being offered by the Opposition. One is to pursue the policies that they pursued in government, which failed and which caused unemployment in Wales more than to double. The other is a protectionist, State-directed, Socialist economy of the kind that we see in Eastern Europe. I do not think that that provides a very attractive alternative to the Welsh people.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about progress being made towards the creation of an enterprise zone in South Wales.

Discussions with the local authorities involved in the Swansea area have reached an advanced stage, and I hope to make a further announcement soon.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the enterprise zone will be a great asset to South Wales, and that the sooner it is established, the better?

I believe that that is right. I welcome the support that the local authorities are giving to the project. I hope that we shall be able to announce the firm go-ahead later this month.

Does the Secretary of State realise that the local authorities in West Glamorgan would sooner have the enterprise zone than have nothing but that they regard it as very poor compensation for the loss of development area status, when nearly 30 firms within the county have declared redundancies? Is he aware of the type of protest that we are now receiving? For example, one company already producing in Swansea protests that one of its competitors, which fortuitously is within the area that will be an enterprise zone but which is mainly an importer, is now to be put at a competitive advantage.

I have of course received representations about development area status generally for that part of Wales. We have undertaken to keep the position continually under review. As to the boundaries of the zone, I am awaiting recommendations from the local authorities before taking final decisions. There are certain proposals to include places adjacent to the area so far proposed, and we shall consider the final recommendations from the local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local authorities in Wales regarding the latest proposals of the Boundary Commission for local authority boundaries.

Numerous representations are received on the proposals submitted in the Boundary Commission's reports. These representations are considered at the time they are made.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the re-wording arrangements proposed for Rhuddlan borough council, as regards the Meliden community and the arrangements for combining the three community councils of Waen, Tremeirchion and Bodfari, Cwm have very much upset the elected representatives, who consider that their views have been set at naught in the interests of bureaucratic tidiness?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the decision on the special community review of Rhuddlan, announced in July of this year, was the culmination of a long statutory process that started in 1975. During this time the representations of local authorities and others have been considered at three separate stages—twice by the commission and once by my right hon. Friend before he came to a decision. In the absence of any new evidence, he is not prepared to reconsider that decision.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has considered ways in which the effects of trunk road development on the farming industry can be mitigated; and whether he will make a statement.

Officials of the Welsh Office met representatives of farming interests in June and September this year to discuss the effects of trunk road improvements on the farming community. The discussions have drawn attention to the problems to which trunk road improvement can give rise, and the Welsh Office will be endeavouring to minimise them.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that there is a regular exchange of views on this subject with representatives of the farming industry?

My right hon. Friend attaches the greatest importance to the preservation and protection of agricultural land, as I know my hon. Friend does. Officials of the Welsh Office will be ready to meet representatives of the farming industry whenever there are problems relating to trunk road improvements that a meeting will help to solve.

Will the Minister and his Department look at the standards for trunk road construction in national parks with a view to establishing whether it is possible—although clearly the road widths must be maintained—to construct roads in a way that does not take so much land and does not damage the environment within the national parks?

In the construction of roads, particularly in the national parks, we are very concerned not to cause any more visual obtrusion than is necessary. We try to buy just sufficient land to make the road and the essential services that go with it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of jobs that have been lost in local government in Wales over the past 12 months because of the reduction in expenditure by local authorities as a result of Government pressure; and what estimate he has of the number of jobs which will be lost over the next 12 months arising from these policies.

The most recent information refers to the period June 1979 to June 1980, when the total number of local authority employees in Wales, including part-timers, fell by 3,043. Further manpower reductions will take place over the next 12 months, as local authorities reduce their expenditure to conform with the Government's guidelines, but this cannot be estimated, since the amount depends on the decisions individual authorities take to secure the necessary expenditure savings.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the cuts that the Government are now pressing on local authorities are having devastating effects? Is he aware that my own county council, Gwynedd, in facing the possibility of £ 4 million cuts, must contemplate the closure of Coleg Pencraig at Llangefni and of three old people's homes, the emasculation of the home help service and the abolition of nursery education? Is that the sum total of Government policy?

I note that in the period to which I have referred local authority manpower fell by only 2.5 per cent., while we have reduced manpower in the Welsh Office by 6.4 per cent. I believe that there is plenty of scope for further reductions in manpower rather than the cuts in services that the hon. Gentleman described. He would do well to press on his local authorities the importance of cutting their manpower rather than cutting services.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in cutting public service manpower he will in proportion be supplementing an increase in employment in the private sector, because to increase employment in the public sector one must borrow more money, which the private sector now desperately needs? Is it not better to have a small increase in unemployment in the public sector, in order to increase employment in the private sector?

We cannot have services unless we create the wealth with which to pay them. The burden of public expenditure is discouraging private sector production. That is why local authorities have to play their part in reducing spending and manpower.

Does the Secretary of State realise that, despite his wishful thinking, when the jobs go the services that they provide—for the elderly, the young, the disabled and the needy—will be either massively reduced or disappear altogether? We are told that further cuts are being demanded by the Treasury. Has the right hon. Gentleman taken a leaf out of the book of the Secretary of State for Defence, since Welsh unemployment now stands at 129,000, and had the courage to tell the Prime Minister that enough is enough, or is he happy to keep his own job even if it means putting the jobs of everyone else in Wales at risk?

The right hon. Gentleman must be one of the few people alive who does not believe that there is room for economies in local government manpower. I believe that local government has a duty to improve the productive wealth of the country and to examine and reduce its manpower level before it reduces services.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about his recent visit to the United States of America.

My visit to the United States of America was an investment promotion mission undertaken in conjunction with the Development Corporation for Wales. Over a three week period I had detailed discussions with 20 companies, took part in numerous presentations and talked to a large number of industrialists potentially interested in investing in Wales.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this major positive initiative will be welcomed by the people of Wales as a step towards trying to increase further investment in the principality? When my right hon. Friend was in America he spoke with the Kaiser Corporation—not "the Kaiser." Will he continue to press on his Cabinet colleagues methods of reducing energy costs to high energy-consuming industries so that they can expand in the Principality? I refer to particularly to Anglesey Aluminium.

Kaiser is a principal shareholder in Anglesey Aluminium. That company has spoken of the importance that it attaches to its plant in Anglesey. It has made a number of specific proposals to reduce energy costs with a view to enlarging operations in Anglesey. We have asked the corporation to provide in more detail specific statistics and proposals in connection with the scheme. As soon as we have that information we shall give it urgent attention.

On the Secretary of State's recent jaunt to the United States at the expense of the British taxpayer to consult "the Kaiser" did he make clear that the worst possible economic recipe for the United States and for Wales would be for the United States to follow the type of Friedmanite, mad monetary policies which this Government are pursuing? If he goes again to the United States at the taxpayers' expense will he make clear that such policies have caused high inflation, high unemployment and the destruction of the Welsh manufacturing industry?

The hon. Gentleman has fallen below his usual standard. He should not come to the House and suggest that efforts by a large number of people in Wales—including members of the trade union movement—to encourage inward investment, are a matter for cheap jibes. Right across the United States we found widespread interest in investing in the United Kingdom for two reasons. First, United States industrialists believe that we are pursuing the policies that need to be pursued. Secondly, United States industrialists see us as a means of entering the European market. The greatest single disaster that could befall inward investment would be a threat to withdraw from Europe, as proposed by the Labour Party conference.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action is proposed to implement the proposals of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs report entitled "The Role of the Welsh Office and Associated Bodies in Developing Employment Opportunities in Wales", and if he will make a statement.

The Government hope to lay their response to the report before the House later this month.

In view of the urgency of some of the report's recommendations may we have an early debate? Is the Secretary of State aware that since the report two former Conservative Prime Ministers have said that the policies being pursued by the Government are calamitous? Is he aware that that is confirmed in evidence by the TUC and CBI in Wales? Will he implement the recommendations for the Cynon Valley and give it special development area status since three major firms have been closed there as a direct result of Government policies?

It is important to have a debate on the report and on the conclusions, which we hope to put to the House soon. As to views about the industrial and economic situation, I am aware that many people over the years have thought that the way out of our difficulties was to take the soft option. I fear that that is why we face some of the severe difficulties that we face today.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that although the report contains many interesting and valuable suggestions it is conceivable that this or any other Government should be able in present circumstances to accept them in full? None the less, will he pay special attention to the recommendations for earlier payments of investment grant and, particularly, the elimination of bureaucratic delays in the payment of the grants?

We shall seek to eliminate bureaucratic delays. Clearly, I cannot give any specific response to the Select Committee's recommendations from the Dispatch Box today. As my hon. Friend observed, to carry out its proposals in full would involve substantial public expenditure. We shall have to take that into account when reaching our conclusions. We hope to lay our response later this month.

Will the Secretary of State note that, far from the proposals in the Select Committee report being those which should not be fully implemented, as a result of the appalling deterioration in the position their implementation is now inevitable? Will he ensure that in his reply he draws attention to table 3 of the report which sets out the areas which are black spots above 10 per cent.? Does he notice that most of Wales is now in that position and that the highly selective position no longer exists? Is he aware that my constituency, with the blows that it has had repeatedly in the last three or four weeks over ICI Nylons, GKN and Saunders Valves, and which 12 months ago was a comparatively prosperous community, is now coming down to penury? Does he recognise that that is a paradigm of the total situation? Will he have the guts to stand up to the Cabinet and insist upon a change in policy?

I intend to respond to the Select Committee in the normal way, by laying a report before the House.

Will the right hon. Gentleman resist the temptation to follow the advice of the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer)? Is he aware that, since the report was published, unemployment has risen by about 13,000, compared with a fall of 5,000 in a comparable period last year and 7,000 the year before? Does he agree that the chasm to which the report refers is now identified by all people in Wales, despite some Conservative Members who were party to the report wishing to run away from it? Will the Secretary of State make every effort to ensure that a day on the Floor of the House is devoted to a debate on that report? Does he accept that a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee would be nothing but second best?

I should welcome the opportunity to debate the report and its consequences on the Floor of the House. I shall discuss that possibility with the Leader of the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with local authorities in Wales concerning organisational and staff changes which may be required for the effective implementation of the provisions of the Housing Act extending the rights of tenants to buy their homes; and what progress he is able to report.

Organisational and staff changes are matters for individual local authorities. We are not formally monitoring sales, but my impression is that good progress is being made.

Does my hon. Friend recognise that while a minority of the authorities have the experience and organisation to deal with such work, many have not sold houses for many years and some have never done so? In such circumstances is it not obvious that a strengthening of their legal departments and possibly some alterations in their housing departments will be required? Will account be taken of that when a judgment is made of the staff sizes and the cost of staff?

I do not agree with all that my hon. Friend says. He is right to say that some councils already have experience of selling council houses. Those embarking on sales for the first time should find their job easier if maximum use is made of private solicitors and valuers. In the longer-term, council house sales should lead to a significant decrease in the number of staff engaged on housing management and maintenance.

Does not the Minister recognise that concentration on the sale of council houses is a grotesque diversion from the real housing needs of Wales? Does he realise that if sales abound there will be a reduction in the supply of public sector housing at the very time when, because of unemployment and a number of other reasons such as Government cutbacks, the tremendous housing needs of Wales will increase? Does he further realise that he is presiding over the greatest housing crisis in Wales since the Second World War?

The hon. Gentleman does not seem to appreciate that a council house sold still remains part of the housing stock. I wish that he would encourage his council in Swansea to give mortgages so that more council houses, including prison officers' houses, could be sold to would-be owners. Does he not realise that if local authorities sell council houses they can increase their allocation and thereby meet real housing needs?

Will the Minister say why his Department is not monitoring sales?

There is no need to monitor council house sales. That would add both to the administrative burden in the Welsh Office and to the administrative burden of local authorities. The Welsh Office currently receives monthly statistics from local authorities giving details of sales of council houses. As from the end of the year authorities will also provide quarterly returns giving details of the right-to-buy applications and the sales.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, apart from giving the greatest economic opportunity in the history of council housing to those whom the Opposition have always purported to represent—but has manifestly failed to do so in the past—the sale of council houses will also reduce the amount of administration and, therefore, the overhead costs of local authorities? Does he further agree that that would ensure that the appalling subsidy that is funded by the taxpayer and ratepayer every year on a new council house would be better spent?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It will reduce the burden on local authorities when significant sales take place. It is of tremendous benefit to would-be purchasers who want to become owner-occupiers and have a stake in the wealth of our country.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he has taken to improve the Health Service in Wales following the publication of the document "Patients First".

Following consultations on the proposals in "Patients First" my right hon. Friend announced in July his initial decisions on restructuring the National Health Service in Wales in "The Structure and Management of the NHS in Wales". AHAs in Wales have been asked to submit proposals for their internal reorganisation into health management units by 31 December. Consultations on these, and on the other matters raised in the structure and management paper are proceeding—but I believe that the end result will be a better Health Service, which will indeed put patients first.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that that document has been widely welcomed in Wales and that, as a result of consultations, he expects a considerable improvement in the standard of service to patients to take place in the Principality?

My hon. Friend is quite right. There has been wide support for our general approach, which is to bring the service closer to the patients. There are many detailed issues of great importance. We shall keep our minds open until we can review all the comments that we receive.

Is the Minister aware that the establishment of health management units, often outnumbering the districts that they are replacing below area level, is making the Health Service in Wales more undemocratic and unrepresentative than ever—hence their unpopularity in Wales?

We have not established management units. At this stage the area health authorities have drawn up plans for establishing such units and are consulting within their areas. We have asked for the results of those consultations from the area health authorities and from other bodies by the end of the year. No decisions have yet been taken.

Will the Minister give some indication of the number of representations received by the Welsh Office advocating the establishment of a regional health authority in Wales? Is he aware that many people have made representations to me indicating that such a body would be a genuine improvement in the democratic control of the Health Service?

I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the precise number of representations made for a regional health authority. Whatever may be its advantages, the right hon. Gentleman must realise that it would add a completely new tier to the National Health Service in Wales. There are certain cost disadvantages to that, as he knows only too well.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people have been employed in job creation schemes in Wales in each year since his Department assumed responsibility for the schemes.

Since July 1977 the total number has been almost 29,800 in job creation schemes. Including schemes for job preservation and work experience and training, the special employment measures package as a whole has benefited almost 200,000 in Wales since July 1977. I shall arrange for year by year figures to be provided in the Official Report.

Is the Minister aware that the need for a job creation scheme is greater today in every part of Wales than it has ever been? Will he give an assurance that he will exert all his energy and priorities towards the creation of that scheme, especially to solve the grave problem of unemployment amongst youngsters?

Yes, Sir.

When my right hon. Friend considers that problem, will he pay special attention to the analogous problem concerning the decline of apprenticeship opportunities in the Principality and the need for continued expansion of industrial retraining?

In my answer to a previous question I confirmed the importance of the youth opportunities side of the programme. We envisage the development of that as central to our policies, and leading increasingly to job training for young people, especially those in the 16 to 17 years age group.

Will the Secretary of State say whether the figures that he has announced include the temporary short-time working scheme? Is he aware of the great misgivings in Wales about the probable ending of the scheme on 31 March? Will he discuss that matter with his colleagues in other Departments because of the strong feeling among companies in Wales that there could be massive redundancies when the scheme ends?

The figures include the temporary short-time working scheme. They include all the schemes in the general package of measures. I agree that all the schemes have made their contribution. We are weighing up their cost effectiveness. We wish to place our emphasis on the youth opportunities programme. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment expects to make a statement in the near future.

Will my right hon. Friend continue to press for an expansion of the youth opportunities programme to help youngsters into something more akin to a vocational training programme, which should encompass not only those who have left school but those still at school so that there is the necessary transition from one to the other? Does he accept that by talking to employers he will discover that much needs to be done by way of Government initiatives to ensure that youngsters are given adequate general training so that they can have better prospects for future employment?

I am sure that that is the direction in which we should be going. During an earlier answer I emphasised the importance that I attach to getting training right, particularly in the high technology area. When we visited companies in that sector in the United States, we got a clear message that the greatest incentive which we can give towards the

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what response he has made to the report of the joint emergency conference of the Welsh Counties Association and the Council for the Principality, held in Cardiff in October, regarding the need for Government action to regenerate industry and the economy in Wales.

I have given careful consideration to the recommendations in the report and I have agreed to meet a deputation from the conference.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the conference consisted of a number of Tory-controlled councils at county, borough and even community level? They expressed the opinion that the Government should take a close look at the regeneration of industry in Wales. Now that the TUC and CBI at national level have come out against the Government, should not the Government seriously consider the effects which their policies are having on Wales? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I share the view expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) that the right hon. Gentleman should at least stand up for Wales against his colleagues in the Cabinet and fight to ensure that there is regeneration of industry before we go right over the brink?

We are not only looking at the need to regenerate industry; we are also taking a considerable number of positive measures in that direction and have announced substantial public spending in Wales with that object in view. The conference had specific proposals to put to the Government, and I have agreed to meet a deputation to discuss them.

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that the defeat of inflation

I agree that that must be our central objective. Of course, it is a total myth to assume that that represents an alternative to saving jobs. The fact is that the rising cycle of inflation over the years has increasingly destroyed more and more jobs. If we were to take that apparently easy way out, at the end of the day we would end up not only with higher inflation but with much higher unemployment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman concede that a jobs chasm already exists in Wales? Will he bear in mind that in the area of Deeside in my constituency nearly 8,000 people are out of work? When will he give Deeside a major jobs project?

I am aware of the serious nature of unemployment on Dee-side. I am paying a visit to the area on 24 and 25 of this month to discuss the problems with the local authorities and others involved. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that during our United States visit we spent a great deal of time talking about the attractions of Deeside and the neighbouring areas. A number of potential investors are keenly interested in the area's attractions. We shall obviously do everything in our power to make sure that that interest is translated into firm projects.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the policies of the Labour Party for regenerating Welsh industry consist of leaving the EEC, to which two-fifths of our exports presently go, and import controls, which would dry up the flow of investment funds that come to Wales from abroad?

That is absolutely right. We identified more than 50 United States companies with a real interest in inward investment in Wales. I think that perhaps between a dozen and two dozen of those represent a 50-50 chance of landing firm projects in the next 12 or 18 months. I do not believe that any of them would be interested in setting up plant in Wales if it were not for our membership of the EEC.

Is the Secretary of State aware that not since the days of Hitler has so much industry been destroyed in Wales? As he looks at the daily and growing casualty list of bankruptcies and redundancies, at a time when the rest of the Government are beginning to waver and preparing the way for a U-turn, does he feel no guilt, as one of the keenest monetarists in the Cabinet, that all this suffering and destruction has proved to be in vain?

I have never been a great observer and follower of any specific, extreme economic theory. [Hon. Members: "Oh"] But I have always observed one basic economic fact which applies just as much to countries as it does to individuals. That is that if one lives beyond one's means and tries to spend more than one creates in wealth one lands in a mess. The fact is that at present we are facing the problems that confront us because we have grossly overspent and paid ourselves more than we have earned. If the right hon. Gentleman encouraged people to lower their wage claims, and not to claim more than they produce, he would make the greatest contribution that he could towards restoring the economic position in Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom.

The right hon. Gentleman seems to be about the only person in the country who does not realise that the Government's contrived high interest rates and the high value of sterling have destroyed more jobs than have high wages.

It is the continual and irresponsible encouragement of high wage settlements by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues that is not only destroying jobs but companies and public services as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will visit Blaenau Ffestiniog to view the flood damage.

Neither my right hon. Friend nor I plan to do so in the immediate future. As the hon. Member knows, Welsh Office officials met Meirionydd district council and others on 31 October to discuss all aspects of the recent floods, and I have received a full report.

Does the Minister accept that that disappointing reply reflects the Government's lack of concern about the serious situation which exists? Can he give an assurance that in Meirionydd the Government's public expenditure policy will not prevent the spending of the £200,000 which is required to restore the situation to the pre-flood position? Can he also give an assurance that the expenditure of another £350,000, as a minimum spending for remedial work on storm drains and so on, will be put in hand with the assistance of his Department.

The hon. Gentleman must believe me when I say that the absence of a visit from my office does not show a lack of concern. He will know that under section 138 of the Local Government Act 1972 the local authorities have powers to alleviate the effects of flooding and to assist those affected. Under the Land Drainage Act 1976, they also have powers to carry out flood prevention works. Grants of up to 50 per cent. of the cost of approved local authority land drainage schemes are available, and my right hon. Friend will consider an application from Meirionydd district council as sympathetically as possible.

My hon. Friend will be aware that there are many large slate tips in the area of Blaenau Ffestiniog. Can he reassure the people who live in that area that those slate tips are safe after the considerable floods that have occurred?

I can assure my hon. Friend that the quarry waste tip above the town is stable. That assurance has been given to me by the mines and quarries division of the Health and Safety Executive.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many non-departmental public bodies to which his Department nominates members have been abolished since June; and how many are scheduled for abolition in the near future.

Two. No other body is scheduled for abolition in the near future.

I find that answer disappointing, especially as our manifesto commitment is to run down quangos, both in the United Kingdom as a whole and in Wales in particular. I am also disappointed that more progress in that direction has not been made. I am equally disappointed to note that in the Broadcasting Bill, which we shall be discussing this afternoon—

Order. The hon. Gentleman's disappointment is undoubtedly very real, but he must ask a question and get over it.

Will my right hon. Friend comment on the fact that seven more mini-quangos, which will affect Wales, will be created in the Broadcasting Bill?

My hon. Friend referred only to bodies that have been abolished since June. Three or four other bodies were abolished in the period prior to that. If he has views to express on the Broadcasting Bill, I have no doubt that he will seek to catch your eye later, Mr. Speaker.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman remember that when he was in opposition he was accustomed to criticise the "gravy train" in political appointments to public bodies in Wales? Given the latest appointments to the Welsh Development Agency and other bodies, does he still persist in that view?

I have been vociferously attacked for appointing a number of leading Socialists, for example, to the Cwmbran development corporation and to other bodies. I have appointed at least one ex-Plaid Cymru parliamentary candidate. I think that I have appointed a fair cross-section of political interest. If I have also succeeded in appointing a few Conservatives, I make no apology.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster if he will undertake a study of the effects of taxation, local authority rates and other imposts upon the live theatre.

I do not think that a formal study would give value for money. These matters are kept under review with the professional organisations and Government Departments involved.

Does not my hon. Friend agree that the British theatre is one of the greatest theatrical centres in the world, if not the greatest, and makes an intellectual, cultural and financial contribution to Britain? Does he not agree that it is dying on its feet because of the imposition of VAT on theatre tickets?

I agree with my hon. Friend's analysis of the role and importance of the British theatre to our heritage and culture. But, despite a number of observations from various theatrical organisations and the Royal Shakespeare Company, there is no indication that various impositions of taxation over the last 10 or 15 years have had any direct effect or bearing on the situation.

Does not the Minister accept that that answer will be regarded as complacent claptrap by those who are currently involved in the theatre, who are painfully aware that the combined effect of VAT and the recession on people's ability to buy theatre tickets is visible and disastrous?

The hon. Gentleman overstates his case when he talks about economic claptrap. The Arts Council grant has been increased by about £10 million this year, which should be defrayed by the Arts Council into the various agencies that expect grant support. But at the same time the theatres must put on good productions, become more self-financing, and look to the community that they seek to serve. They are not doing that in every case.

Is not the impact of tax on the theatre compounded by the fact that television is able to offer higher fees, not only to actors and actresses, but to playwrights? In view of the national importance of the theatre and of concerts as a magnet to tourists, is there not an economic case for giving them special tax relief?

I have no doubt that if my right hon. Friend considers that there are special cases for providing tax reliefs he will communicate those views to my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I accept his analysis that in the past 15 or 20 years there has been a change in the entertainment that people require, and undoubtedly television and other forms of art have become strongly competitive. But the theatres must look to their communities and to their productions, and they must reach out to the community.

Will not the hon. Gentleman listen to that rare creature on his Benches—the chap with some cultural feeling—and take his advice? Will he not try to get his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who understands these matters, to approach his Treasury friends—if I may use such a misnomer, and if indeed he has any—to get VAT lifted from the live theatre, which is one of the immediate ways in which he could help this vital cultural activity?

I think that I should make sure that every hon. Member understands that there is not just one hon. Member with cultural experience on this side of the House. They are legion behind me, and I hope that the House recognises that. With regard to discussion between Departments and the analy- sis of the reasons for and the definition of problems, those matters are constantly under review, and a dialogue takes place frequently.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he is satisfied with the amount of public investment in the arts.

Naturally I should like to see more public investment in the arts, and this continues to be my objective. However, I am satisfied with the public investment made to date.

Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that public investment is essential in order to encourage variety of expression in the arts and that it should never be used as an instrument for political blackmail, to try to shut people up? Will he therefore ignore the Philistine demands of the ambitious Southend crawler who wants to stop the Arts Council from giving grants to certain theatre companies because they are understandably critical of the worst Government and worst Prime Minister that this country has ever had?

Those are fighting words. As usual, the hon. Gentleman has hit out in all directions and has missed most of his targets. I am certainly in favour of increasing investment in the arts, whether from public or private sources. I do not beleive that it is the job of a Minister responsible for the arts to be a censor. The responsibility for the way in which the money is spent belongs to the Arts Council by its constitution. I have no plans for changing the balance between myself and the Arts Council.

I have no idea as to which Southend Member of Parliament the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) was referring. Will the Minister at least condemn the activities of the Arts Council in supporting groups that exercise political discrimination in their employment policies by advertising for Socialist actresses?

I do not wish to condemn anyone. Under its constitution there is a duty on the Arts Council to decide how to dispense public money. It would be highly undesirable for Ministers to start intervening in the day-to-day administration of the Arts Council. If there is a cause for complaint that is drawn to my attention, I, in turn, draw it to the attention of the Arts Council, which investigates it. It is the responsibility of the Arts Council, and that is essential to the preservation of freedom of the arts from political interference.

Will not the right hon. Gentleman be frank and honest enough to admit that, however effective his exhortations, commercial sponsorship will only ever provide a fraction of what is needed for the life of the arts in this country? His responsibility is to increase the public funding of the arts. Will he do so?

As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State pointed out to the hon. Gentleman, the Arts Council grant has been considerably increased this year by £10 million, or 20 per cent. I encourage private sponsorship, not as a substitute, but as a welcome addition to support by the Arts Council. I am glad to have the support of the hon. Gentleman in both my campaigns. With his support we are bound to succeed.

Apropos public investment in the National Theatre production "Romans in Britain", will not my right hon. Friend at least tell Sir Peter Hall that there has always been an audience for gratuitous brutality and violence or throwing Christians to the lions, and that full houses are no guarantee of artistic merit, dramatic integrity or continuing public support from the taxpayer or the ratepayer?

I saw the play "Romans in Britain" in anticipation of Question Time today. I saw it in the course of duty. I thought it was an extremely bad play, scatological and somewhat offensive, but I do not believe that it is a case for suppression or censorship. Unsuccessful attacks on books or plays serve only to raise sales. When will we learn that lesson? After all, we learnt it first in 1877 when the first tract on birth control called "The Fruits of Philosophy" was attacked in the courts. A few hundred copies were sold at the beginning of the case, and by the end of the case 120,000 copies had been sold. Attacks on "Romans in Britain" at the National Theatre have only one tangible effect—that is, to fill that theatre.

While we all applaud the fact that we have here one shining light opposed to censorship, may I express the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not go too far in saying that he will not condemn anyone? He could start by making an exception in the case of his hon. Friends the Members for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) and Romford (Mr. Neubert). Surely the point is that there is a means within his grasp of dealing with public investment, and that is by getting the Treasury immediately to abolish value added tax in the theatre, as most of Western Europe has already done.

I would certainly welcome that decision if it were reached by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I shall not set out on the path of condemnation. There is the highest authority for saying:

"Condemn not and you shall not be condemned."