asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the value of the giants allocated to Wales from the European regional development fund since 1975.

A total of £92·5 million.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the size of these and other grants to Wales shows how beneficial it is to the people of Wales that we are members of the Community? Will he take every opportunity to ensure that the people of Wales know the source of these grants?

I agree with my hon. Friend. I agree also that inward investment from overseas is substantially dependent upon our membership of the Community.

Has the Minister quantified the effect on Wales of EEC membership as it affects the steel industry? Will he tell the House particularly whether, in the context of EEC policies, the current reduction in the steel industry in Wales is in line with what is demanded by the Community?

I am sure that Wales has benefited from the fact that the Community is seeking measures to control excess capacity in steel making. That must be to the benefit of our industry, which has substantially benefited also from grants and loans to assist both the social consequences of reductions in manning and the general restructuring that is taking place.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the increase in the total of unemployed in Wales since May 1979.

Between May 1979 and January 1981 the level of unemployment, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, increased by 52,200.

With the publication of these damning figures how can the Secretary of State wish to remain in a hard-faced Cabinet which is systematically denuding Wales of its industrial base? What hope, help and encouragement can the right hon. Gentleman offer to the steel workers, textile workers, paper makers and Vauxhnll car workers in my constituency, who pathetically seek work, particularly in the town of Flint, where there is 32 per cent. male unemployment and where fathers compete against sons for jobs? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider locating the new Nissan factory on the banks of the Dee in my constituency?

The unemployment situation in the hon. Gentleman's constituency is serious, though Flint is part of a travel-to-work area where unemployment is at 15·7 per cent., not 32 per cent. We have to look at travel-to-work areas if we are to make proper and reasonable assessments. The principal hope for the recovery of this country's industry and economy lies in increasing competitiveness. Already many sections of the British Steel Corporation have shown that that offers the best hope for recovery. The choice of site for Datsun is for that company to make after a proper assessment of its requirements.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, despite the damning remarks of the official spokesman for the Labour Party, the proposed Nissan investment, would be extremely welcome in Wales, particularly in North Wales? Which does he consider to be more helpful to the cause of employment in Wales—the policy of the Labour Party of getting out of the EEC, or the policy of Plaid Cymru of discouraging business men from coming to Wales on the ground that their second homes will be most unwelcome?

I should not wish to make a choice of evils. However, I attended a luncheon given by the Development Corporation for Japanese business people, during which I emphasised how welcome inward investment by a major Japanese concern would be. I repeat that it is for the company to choose its location, though clearly there are many sites and areas in Wales that it will consider. It will be the job of everyone concerned to draw attention to the benefits that will be obtained at those sites. We shall seek in every way to meet the requirements of that company.

Will the Secretary of State come back from the red herring, or the blue herring, that has been raised, to the real crunch of the question? He referred to the "competitiveness of British industry". Does he accept that getting this competitiveness often means closing down branch factories in areas such as Wales, and that if there is a future for the economy it is often after branch factories have been closed and there is nothing left? In what way will he ensure that there is an adequate regional policy to keep the economy going so that we have something to expand when the expansion comes?

I have always made it clear that I believe in a continuing regional policy and in assisting and cushioning the effects of change. The hon. Gentleman said that remarks about inward investment were a red herring. Far from being a red herring, it is a matter of considerable significance and importance that a major Japanese company should be considering investing in a development area in this country as part of its entry into Europe, and that other overseas companies should also be considering major investment in Wales.

The Secretary of State is fortunate to have the ability to avoid making a choice of evils, but for the 145,000 unemployed in Wales there is little choice. I can understand the Secretary of State choosing the seasonally adjusted figure, but it is a fact that there are 62,500 extra unemployed in Wales as a consequence of his policies. Will he confirm that whilst the percentage figure is given as 13·4, that masks many areas of much higher unemployment, including Tenby which has 22·5 per cent. male unemployment? Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether that is what he promised the people of Tenby and of Wales when, during his election campaign, he said that he would restore the incentive to work?

I used the seasonally adjusted figure for the same reason as the right hon. Gentleman always used it from this Dispatch Box when he was in Government during a period when unemployment in Wales was doubling and, incidentally, when unemployment in my constituency was at about the same level as it is at present.

Does the Secretary of State agree that in this competition for the Nissan investment it would be wrong if West Glamorgan were to lose because of continued uncertaintly about its special development area status? Will he, particularly in the light of the Velindre development, give urgent consideration to upgrading the status of West Glamorgan.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, upgrading is being considered by the Government. I shall bear in mind the representations made by the hon. Gentleman. He will appreciate that in the selection of a location many other considerations, including the availability of a suitable, very large location, have to be borne in mind.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has completed his review of the National Health Service administration in Wales: and whether he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend and I are giving careful consideration to the comments received in response to "The Structure and Management of the National Health Service in Wales", and to the area health authorities' proposals for the establishment of health management units.

Will my hon. Friend note that the people of Powys are highly satisfied with the excellent service provided by the existing structure of the 15 small hospitals in Powys, and that the great majority of the people in the area are totally opposed to interference in a successful scheme by the proposal by the consultants at the Bronglais hospital, Aberystwyth, for a Mid-Wales authority?

As my right hon. Friend stated in the structure document,

"the people of Powys cherish the right to a health authority of their own".

When reviewing the administration of the National Health Service in Wales, will the Minister consider the report of Sir Douglas Black, produced last year, which indicated deep and continuing inequalities in the provision of health care in Wales compared with that in other countries and other regions in Britain? What policy does the Department have for redressing these inequalities?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are concerned mainly with the structure of the Health Service in Wales and with changing that structure. Any changes that are made in the structure will have their effect in due course on the quality of the Health Service in Wales.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the people of North Powys fully subscribe to the views expressed by the people of South Powys. so ably put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Hooson)?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that information, which my right hon. Friend and I have duly noted. However, I must stress that no firm decisions have as yet been taken.

Is the Minister fully conversant with the great uncertainties and discontent among senior and highly responsible staff over what appears to be a lack of urgency on the part of the Welsh Office in getting this organisation off the ground? Will the Welsh Office ensure that all centres of excellence and of medicine are not confined to one teaching hospital and South Glamorgan?

I cannot understand the hon. Gentleman's point about urgency, because the consultative period came to an end only on 31 December. Surely he cannot expect us by now to have taken all the representations into account. We have received many representations. We shall consider them and hope to come to a firm conclusion within a month or so.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the measures of special assistance provided by Her Majesty's Government and by the European Economic Community and the European Coal and Steel Community for areas in Wales affected by steel closures or rundown during the past 12 months.

The full benefits of assisted area status and regional selective assistance, together with the support of the Welsh Development Agency and the Manpower Services Commission, have been available throughout. In addition, the Government have allocated about £70 million for special remedial measures, while the European Community has committed £78 million in 1980 in identifiable loans and grants.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the verdict in the report of the Select Committee on the Government's response to these closures is no longer appropriate in view of the successful efforts that he has made within the Cabinet to fight for better treatment for these areas, which are now well poised to take advantage of any upturn in the economy?

Since coming into office we have spent, or are committed to spending, well over £300 million on measures to facilitate and encourage industrial development and job creation in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what funds have been spent by the Sports Council for Wales on the construction of Plas y Deri mountaineering centre.

I understand that the Sports Council for Wales has to date spent £1,100,000 on the construction of the national outdoor pursuits centre at Plas y Deri.

Does my hon. Friend think that it makes financial sense for the Sports Council for Wales to spend an estimated £2 million on the creation of a new sports centre in the Snowdonia region, when a similar centre operated by the Sports Council in the same region is only 67 per cent. utilised? Does he agree that the money might be better spent on one of the cost-effective job creation schemes?

Before my hon. Friend comes to a final conclusion on the value for money expenditure by the Sports Council for Wales he should take into consideration the fact that, unlike Plas-y-Brenin, the outdoor pursuits centre at Plas y Deri will cater for sailing and other water sports, as well as mountaineering. The intention of the Sports Council for Wales is to establish one national centre in Wales for Welsh sports men and women, which will cater for both main branches of outdoor pursuits.

Is the Minister aware that the people of Caernarvon and, indeed, of Wales, welcome the setting up of this outdoor pursuits centre? It has made excellent progress. It makes facilities available—for the disabled, for example—that are not available at the other centre in Snowdonia. Does he agree that if he addresses himself to this question at all, he should address himself to the question whether the other centre for outdoor pursuits in Snowdonia should come under the Sports Council for Wales?

I think that there is room in Wales for both centres and that both will play a valuable part in Welsh and British life.

Are there not 70 other outdoor pursuit centres within a 50-mile radius of Snowdonia catering for all kinds of sports, not all of which are fully occupied all the time? What consultations took place between the Welsh and British Sports Councils before this massive investment took place? Is this not a case either of Welsh parochialism or of bumbling bureaucracy duplicating facilities unnecessarily?

The Sports Council for Wales is an independent body, fully responsible for deciding its spending priorities in the interests of Welsh sport. Its centre in South Wales has been a well-subscribed success, and we look forward to the same happening at Plas y Deri.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the level of funds coming to Wales from the European Economic Community.

Apart from the moneys from the budget settlement, the European Community has committed to Wales some £711 million in identifiable grants and loans since accession, and further amounts are in the pipeline. The Community has already made a substantial direct contribution to the development of Wales, which we shall take all possible steps to expand.

Is my right hon, Friend aware that, as a separate part of the United Kingdom, Wales does much better out of the EEC than does any other part? Will he take time today to make it clear to the people of Wales that one of their representatives, the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot), is seeking to to deny them that source of finance by his disgraceful policy of wanting to take us out of the EEC, which appears to be emulated by most of his right and hon. Friends—although one can never be certain these days? What effect does my right hon. Friend believe that that would have on the jobs being created in Wales as a direct consequence of European funds?

My hon. Friend is right. To give an example, Wales has benefited by receiving about 16 per cent. of the United Kingdom quota of the ERDF. As I said before, perhaps even more important at present when we are seeking inward investment is that Nissan-Datsun, Mitel and other companies would not be contemplating investment if they believed for one moment that we would leave the European Community.

How can we in Wales be satisfied with the total amount as long as so small a part of the EEC budget is devoted to the regional and social funds, which particularly affect Wales? In the coming negotiations, which is the ideal opportunity, will the Secretary of State and his colleagues seek to redirect the budget away from the three-quarters dependence on agriculture and in favour of the regional and social funds.

It must be in the interests of the United Kingdom to restrict and contain the burgeoning expenditure on agricultural support that has taken place over the years and to see more of it devoted to the purposes that the hon. Gentleman names. I agree with the general line of his argument.

As evidence was given to the Welsh Select Committee suggesting that liaison might be improved between local authorities in Wales and the Welsh Office on the tapping of European funds, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that after some six months' experience there has been an improvement in the liaison?

I do not believe that there is any great shortcoming there. The Welsh Office maintains close contact with Europe. I pay a number of visits to the European Community to discuss matters of importance to Wales. We provide all possible information to local authorities about the assistance available. I am glad to say that more and more of them are putting forward worthwhile schemes and that there is a good take-up of the available funds.

Will the right hon. Gentleman back his fine words with urgent action by locating jobs in, say, my constituency, particularly in the towns of Flint and Holywell, where there is a crisis, with male unemployment in Flint running beyond 30 per cent? In order to avoid a Jarrow situation, can he tell us how the new jobs will be delivered?

The hon. Gentleman cannot really believe that we can direct international companies to set up in specific areas. Instead of talking about a Jarrow situation he would do his constituents a greater service by drawing attention to the enourmous attractions of his part of Wales, the excellent record of the labour force and the good industrial sites and communications. He seldom mentions those factors. He merely draws attention to the problems that the area faces.

As we are having this orchestrated eulogy of the EEC, if we are to draw up and judge a fair balance sheet, can the Secretary of State tell us, in addition to the grants and loans that we receive, what our membership costs Wales? Has he seen the Giolitti report, which indicates that over the past 10 years the 10 richest regions of the EEC have become richer and the 10 porrest regions, including Wales, have become poorer? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that is because the CAP still takes the lion's share of the budget and the regional and social funds are very much poor relations? It is all very well to talk about the matter, but what steps will the Government take to redress the balance?

The European Community is by far our largest and fastest growing market. That is the greatest guarantee for the future employment of our people. It was with a sense of astonishment that I read recently of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about proposed Japanese investment in the European Community through a base in Wales, which might have been directly designed to discourage that.

If the right hon. Gentleman is in doubt about what I said, and as he appears to have read only half of my speech, may I ask him to read the whole of it, so that he can see that I said that because of our experience we supported Japanese firms but that we should want to know more about each individual application instead of merely giving blanket approvals?

I note what the right hon. Gentleman says. I am glad that he is having second thoughts. I hope that the right hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme), who speaks in a similar manner, is also having second thoughts.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest number of the unemployed in Wales; and how many redundancies have been announced since May 1979.

The latest figure is 133,500, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers. The number of redundancies notified since May 1979 under the provisions of the Employment Protection Act is 89,600.

As we now have the highest level of unemployment in the United Kingdom since 1935, the largest fall in output since 1931, the biggest jump in unemployment since 1930 and the situation in Wales is worse than in the other regions of the United Kingdom, will the right hon. Gentleman accept that, although we welcome investment from Japan or elsewhere, the Government are committing economic hara-kiri if they are not prepared to change their attitude?

The situation is completely different from that in the 1930s. Apart from anything else, there are millions more in work now. The statistics that the hon. Gentleman produces are therefore phoney. Even he should realise that the attraction of inward investment and the improvement of competitiveness are the best hopes for job creation.

Will my right hon. Friend congratulate the Secretary of State for Employment on almost doubling the number of places on the youth opportunities programme by the increase to 440,000? What consultations has he had with his right hon. Friend and with the Manpower Services Commission to ensure that a sufficient number of those places come to Wales?

My right hon. Friend keeps in close touch with me about manpower measures. I have responsibility for the work of the Manpower Services Commission in Wales. There has been a substantial increase in the scale of the youth opportunities programme, with over 43,000 places being offered in Wales in the coming year.

In spite of the Secretary of State's renowned lack of interest in the coal industry in Wales, will he pay attention to the crisis meeting to be held on 10 February between the NCB and the NUM, which could herald for the first time in a decade premature and accelerated pit closures and large-scale compulsory redundancies? Will he therefore support the call for a special meeting of the tripartite committee of the Government, the NCB and the NUM to work out a genuine solution to the problems of the Welsh coalfields, and not, as he has done in the past 18 months, ignore them?

I attach the greatest importance to the future of the coal industry. The Government are committed to the continuation of the Plan for Coal and are making available financial backing in excess of £800 million for the industry in the current year. I do not understand the hon. Gentleman's reference to the past decade. Under the Labour Government, between March 1974 and May 1979 seven pits were closed and six were merged—a total of 13. From November 1964 to June 1970, 36 pits in Wales were closed, with the loss of 30,000 jobs. We are merely experiencing part of a continuing process. We need continued investment in viable pits, which inevitably means the closure of the older and less economic pits.

Order. We must move on.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next plans to meet the chairman of the Welsh Water authority to discuss the effect of Government policy on water charges.

My right hon. Friend sees the charirman whenever necessary. He has no plans to do so in the immediate future. I addressed a meeting of the Welsh water authority on 18 November last, when I drew its attention to the need to employ its manpower and assets as efficiently and economically as possible.

Is the Minister aware of the wide-scale concern in Wales about the reports last week of a 21·6 per cent. increase in water rates for the coming financial year? Does he agree that, in view of the proposals put forward by the authority, and in view also of the effect that the end of equalisation will have on water charges—an enormous increase in costs—the Government should explore the sale of water from the Welsh authority to the Severn-Trent authority? If such proposals are put forward by the Welsh water authority, what will be the Government's attitude?

The hon. Gentleman's question is premature, because the actual rate of increase has not yet been fixed by the Welsh water authority or by any other water authority that I know of. With regard to equalisation and the loss of it in Wales, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Government have taken some account of the loss of equalisation by fixing a lower target rate of return for the Welsh water authority next year than for the English water authorities. In fixing the target rate, and in allowing the Welsh water authority a longer time to achieve the 1¼ per cent. target rate required, it is estimated that the target that has been set will allow the authority to raise about £5 million less revenue in 1981–82 than if the English formula had been applied.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am concerned about the 69 per cent. increase in the staffing of the Welsh water authority since 1975? Is my hon. Friend concerned about that, and what steps does he propose to take to make the authority face reality?

I expressed my views to the authority on 18 November and, in drawing its attention to the need to make good use of manpower I said that I should return in the spring to discuss the progress that it had made.

Does the Minister agree that without the water equalisation charges and the setting of cash limits the charges in Wales for the coming year could be between 30 to 40 per cent. lower than they will have to be?

As I explained in answer to an earlier question on the subject, while there is a loss as a result of no further orders being made under the equalisation Act, nevertheless the target set for the Welsh water authorities means that it will not have to raise the additional £5 million that would have been necessary if we had set it the same target over the same period as we are setting the English water authorities Account has been taken by the Government of the loss of money from equalisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has completed his consideration of the cases presented to him in August by the Heads of the Valleys Standing Conference that the valleys of South Wales should be urgently provided with special Government assistance; and if he will make a statement.

I discussed the position with representatives of the conference last August. That was followed up in a detailed reply in October, and I shall be meeting the representatives again on 9 February.

Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that on 9 February he will have some positive measures to offer, rather than a bland dismissal of the problem, bearing in mind that exactly six months have passed since this case was presented to him as urgent? Further, will he give an assurance that he will dissociate himself from the assertion by the Under-Secretary of State at the end of the debate on Welsh affairs that the problems of the valleys were merely Celtic gloom, as expressed by Labour Members, and that they should not be made public lest that should affect the viability of the valleys? Will he take into account the fact that that is widely viewed and interpreted as an attempt to cover up the Government's failure to tackle the problems of the Welsh valleys?

Once again the hon. Gentleman finds nothing good to say about what is available and about the best hope for the valleys. I do not in any way criticise my hon. Friend for the admirable speech that he made on that occasion. He emphasised that the image of Wales is critical if we are to attract new jobs there. At present, a considerable number of factory units are available in the valleys, and I am glad to say that allocations in 1980 continued at a similar level to the very high achievements of 1979.

Will my right hon. Friend make it plain that the prosperity that will return as a result of the Government sticking to their policies will not be permitted to bypass the areas that have been hardest hit by the recession?

That is why we are concentrating substantial regional aid on the areas that are worst affected, including the parts of Wales that are covered in this question, and why we are devoting a good part of the resources of the Welsh Development Agency to ensuring that there are good sites and factories available in those locations. Incidentally, it is also why we are pressing on with the Raglan-Abergavenny link road, which is crucial to providing improved access.

Does the Secretary of State understand why Labour Members were particularly distressed and concerned to hear the Secretary of State for Energy talk about areas of this country being bypassed? Is he not aware that the valley communities were bypassed by the Conservative Government on many occasions? Does the Secretary of State not appreciate that many of the valleys in Gwent and Glamorgan are still heavily dependent upon the coal industry? He said that he supported the Plan for Coal. Does that mean that the Government stand by the production target of 120 million tonnes in that plan? Is he aware that in Welsh terms it is not feasible for the Government to say that they stand by that unless they take action to prevent the mmaking of further contracts for importing coking coal and cut the existing level of imports, even if that means Government subsidies?

The Government recognise that the modernisation of the coal industry and the development of the major new fields that is taking place will, inevitably, mean the closure of some of the older, uneconomic pits. Undoubtedly some pits will have to close, but I hope that that will not be on the scale that was suffered under the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has completed his review of policies for persons with mental handicap.

No, Sir. A joint Welsh Officee—area health authority working party has been set up to consider the future pattern of health care for the mentally handicapped in Wales. A considerable amount of preliminary work was done on an all-Wales plan by the Welsh Office last year. The first meeting of the working party was held on 5 January.

Does the Minister accept that that is an unsatisfactory situation, in view of the fact that the review of better services for the mentally handicapped in England was published in December? Will he explain to the House who has been consulted in the preparation of the plan for the working party and why the personal social services departments of local authorities are not represented on the working party? Will he further explain why his policy is contrary to the community care personal social services orientation in line with the Jay report, which is the policy of the DHSS in England?

The hon. Gentleman is suffering from a number of misunderstandings. The Welsh Office did not participate in the review that was recently published by my right hon. Friend because it was decided that the need in Wales was to look at specific problems in the pattern of services in their local context. With regard to the social service departments, when we have sorted out the health side of the problem of the mentally handicapped we shall consult the social service departments, as I told them when I addressed their chairmen last October.

Will the Minister concede that whatever cash protection the DHSS allowed for the NHS in the past year, many buildings, such as that in Allt-y-Mynydd in the heart of Dyfed, are being taken away and that we are finding great difficulty in replacing beds and facilities, which are nigh impossible to replace in these parts of West Wales?

The hon. Gentleman has made a statement. I am not sure what the question was. However, we are very well aware, as is, I am sure, Dyfed AHA, of the problems.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what measures he intends taking to protect Welsh milk producers from the effect of ultra heat treatment milk production and Continental importations of the product.

The importation of milk from the Continent is effectively prevented at present by our health and hygiene regulations. There is no reason to discourage home production of UHT milk.

Would the Minister care to prognosticate on whether this will be the last year in which there will be door-to-door milk delivery which can be guaranteed, or whether milk which keeps for six months—milk of convenience, milk available from the corner shops—will have captured such a great part of the market that door-to-door delivery will eventually disappear?

I think that it is very unlikely that during the next year door-to-door delivery will disappear.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many former steel workers affected by demanning under the MacGregor plan are currently registered as unemployed in the Port Talbot travel-to-work area.

I understand that redundancy notices issued on 24 January at the Port Talbot steelworks are expected to result in the loss of 630 jobs on 28 March, and that a small number of people have already left. I cannot, however, predict how many of these will register as unemployed in the travel-to-work area.

Is the Minister aware that since the Government came to office unemployment in the Port Talbot and Bridgend travel-to-work area has increased by well over 100 per cent.? The present position is that we have 11,531 unemployed, with an increase of 542 in the last month alone. That is 14·2 per cent. of the working population. A further 700 redundancies under the MacGregor plan will escalate the figure even further. What are the Minister and his Government doing to try to get industry into the Port Talbot area? Do they not accept that their policies are politically unacceptable and economically self-destructive? Why do not they change course now?

I hope that, at least, the hon. Gentleman will recognise that Port Talbot, as a result of having made a success of Slimline, has been given a real opportunity to survive and to enlarge its operations in the future and that, once again, competitiveness among individual plants provides the best guarantee of future jobs.

Do the figures that the Secretary of State has given include an anticipated portion of the 1,500 who may lose their jobs at the Velindre tinplate plant? Will the Secretary of State undertake personally to look at the job sharing scheme, which the workers at Velindre have put to the management, to see whether there is any way of providing Government assistance towards these work sharing proposals?

I am aware of the proposals. I have asked the chairman of the BSC to let me know his response to those proposals, but it must remain for the BSC management to decide on the exact structure within the corporation.

In view of the high unemployment in the area, will the Secretary of State speak to his colleague the Secretary of State for Energy about the possibility of going ahead with the Margam coal investment, which has been put on ice? Will he look particularly at the opportunities to export that coal to countries such as Spain, where a market may devlop over the next few years?

Clearly, any possibilities that create future markets for the coal industry must be looked at very carefully. They will no doubt be assessed by the management and the board. I cannot give any indication that the Margam operation will go ahead.

Order. Questions Nos. 15, 16 and 17 are wrongly placed on the Order Paper, due to human error. They should come at the end.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many officials are currently employed within his Department.

Nine men and 10 women, three of the latter being part-time, are employed in the Duchy office, which is not actually a Government Department.

As the responsibility of the Duchy would appear to be to run the Duchy for Her Majesty, will the Chancellor explain what those people are doing and where they are doing it, and, if it is within the parish of Westminster, might not that office be used more constructively for parliamentary purposes?

They are administrators, surveyors, accounts staff and clerical staff. It is a general office, which for a long period has been either where it is today, or in the vicinity of where it is now located, in the Strand.

asked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what patronage appointments he is responsible for.

I appoint incumbents to 40 Church livings; also members to the governing bodies of six universities and schools; the chaplains to two almshouses; and the residents to one of these charitable homes.

Does the Minister agree that he is one of the biggest beneficiaries of Prime Ministerial patronage, because he is not only the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster but also the Leader of the House and the Paymaster General? Does the Minister not feel a bit guilty about the fact that he has three jobs when there are 1½ million people with no jobs at all because of his Government's unemployment policies?

I think that it is quite a good advertisement for higher productivity.

On the question of patronage, does my right hon. Friend agree that it is far better that appointments should be made by patronage rather than by, say, the block vote?

That is a matter of opinion. In this case, of course, it is Her Majesty who is the patron.

In view of the impending changes on the Opposition Benches, will my right hon. Friend promise to keep at least some vacancies in the alms houses?

I note what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he proposes to take any new initiatives to support the arts.

I propose to support the arts in every way that I can, within the resources available.

Now that the Prime Minister seems hell-bent on further increases in unemployment, and therefore on enforced additional leisure time, is that not an additional reason for more Government support for the arts? Why is there not a Cabinet Minister here to answer questions about the arts, especially as the previous Arts Minister was a member of the Cabinet, until he, too, became a victim of the Government's unemployed policies?

At least I can agree with the hon. Member that we need to support the arts. If he looks at the Government's record he will see that a great deal has been done to support the arts. I shall continue to do my best to make sure that that is the situation.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the 21-nation Council of Europe has been asked by the European Parliament to set up a European music year in 1985, which will be the tercentenary of the births of Bach, Handel and Scarlatti? Will he be prepared to enter into discussions on how the United Kingdom Government might give this scheme every possible encouragement?

I am most interested in what my right hon. Friend has told me. I shall be delighted to discuss this matter with him and all other relevant people. I should be grateful if he would get in touch with me.

In view of the strong cultural traditions of the East European and Asian minorities of this country, may I ask whether the Minister is satisfied that ethnic minorities are receiving a proper share of the moneys available, in order to improve their activities?

I am not sure that I am satisfied about that. I shall make inquiries about the matter with the Arts Council and others, and I shall write to the hon. and learned Member.

Will the right hon. Gentleman understand if I temper my welcome to him with an expression of real regret that we have lost the services of his predecessor, who showed considerable concern for and understanding of the problems of the arts world, and whose dismissal has saddened all those who care about the arts? I do not want to appear too grudging in my welcome to the Minister, because I have considerable personal regard for him— [Interruption.] I have considerable personal regard for him, having worked with him in Europe on cultural matters. How does the Minister think that the demotion of the job for which he is now responsible, from Cabinet status to a rather inconsiderable Minister of State, will further the interests of the art world?

Wherever I go in the artistic world, I am told that my right hon. Friend did a great job. I am happy to confirm what the hon. Gentleman has said. As regards the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I shall have independent responsibility for the arts, and I shall also have responsibility for the arts budget. I have my own Question Time and a great measure of independence. Indeed, I am the first Minister for the Arts—with the exception of my right hon. Friend—ever to have been given a separate Question Time. That never happened under the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many arts companies received grants from the Arts Council in 1979–80; and how many will do so in 1980–81.

The Arts Council of Great Britain tells me that in 1979–80 it made grants to 1,234 organisations. The total for the present financial year will not be known exactly until the end of the year, but I am told that it is not likely to be lower.

Does the Minister recall that great publicity was given to the 41 or so companies— [Interruption.]—whose grants were reduced this year by the Arts Council? Is the Minister further aware that this country earns about £11 million a day from tourism, and that that is largely due to our theatres and music? Does the Minister accept that many towns will have to close their theatres, and that as a result more unemployment will be created, not only in the theatre world, but in the other supportive tourist industries? What can the Minister do to educate this Philistine Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer? How can the right hon. Gentleman do a proper job when he is not in the Cabinet—

Order. With every respect, the hon. Lady will prevent another hon. Member from asking a question.

rose—

Order. I think that the hon. Lady has already asked at least two questions.

I do not understand how any reasonable person can accuse the Government of being Philistine when, before Christmas, my right hon. Friend the former Minister for the Arts announced an increase in the Arts Council grant of £10 million. However, I understand the feelings of some theatre organisations that no longer receive grants. I sympathise with them. On occasions, changes will have to be made. I cannot comment on the individual merits of each case, but I shall discuss this subject with the Arts Council.

In view of recent controversial drama productions, will my right hon. Friend confirm that members of the Arts Council, and not salaried officials, are charged with the responsibility of making decisions in the public interest? It appears from press reports that on at least one occasion salaried officials took it upon themselves to make such decisions.

Whatever decisions officials take, they are ultimately responsible to the Arts Council. The Arts Council must take ultimate responsibility for decisions taken in its name. I note what my hon. Friend has said.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the stringency of the Government's economic policy has led to a situation where the cuts in Arts Council grants has gravely endangered the continuation of a large number of the community arts and theatre groups to which my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short) briefly referred? They have suddenly been left without any of the funding that they reasonably expected to receive in the coming year.

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, he does not seem to have seen the figures. The Arts Council grant has not decreased but has increased by a substantial amount. If any criticism can be made, it rests on how the Arts Council has distributed its grant. No Minister for the Arts has ever taken any part in that. I have said that I shall discuss this matter with the Arts Council.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment and thank him for what has been done for the Arts Council. As a matter of urgency, will he see the director-general and the chairman of the Arts Council? Is he aware that there is concern about some of the 41 cuts that have been made? Will my right hon. Friend once more make it abundantly plain that it is not the Government who have made the cuts? The Arts Council has used its delegated autonomy to do that.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. I shall see the chairman of the Arts Council later this week, and I shall make him well aware of the feelings that exist on both sides of the House.

When the right hon. Gentleman sees the chairman, will he emphasise that the damage has been done by the cuts? It is that aspect that so many groups find unacceptable and damaging.

I shall raise that point with the chairman.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will seek to make further grant provision for the Arts Council in the current financial year.

No, Sir.

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his office. Does he agree that it is the suddenness of the cuts that has done such a great disservice to the theatre? Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that, as a result, the National Youth Theatre and the Royal Shakespeare Company which performs at the open-air theatre, may well go to the wall? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot find any more money this year, will he consider a future policy of phasing out grant-aid rather than totally cutting it off?

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind personal remarks. What he said emphasises what I said earlier, namely, that there is keen interest in all parts of the House, and some disquiet, about the way in which the cuts were announced. I shall take the matter up with the chairman of the Arts Council.

If no provision can be made for extra grant, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce VAT on theatre and opera tickets? The amount of VAT seriously affects repertory companies, which have to pay 15 per cent. VAT instead of the previous amount of 8 per cent.

Fortunately, that is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to consider. I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's remarks to his attention.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has visited any of Great Britain's preserved railways; and if, as part of his evaluation of the importance of industrial archaeology, he will do so.

Not as yet, since my responsibility is mainly for railway items in museums, but I want to visit the National Railway museum in York before too long.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer, and congratulate him on his appointment. Does he accept that whilst painting, sculpture and the theatre are fashionable, hundreds of thousands of people take a deep interest in and obtain considerable satisfaction from not only the National Railway museum—to which I happily pay tribute—but from the railway preservation movement? Whenever my right hon. Friend speaks about his job—as I am sure he does most of the time—will he ensure that he never loses sight of the importance of this less fashionable, but well worthwhile, aspect of his responsibilities?

I give my hon. Friend that assurance. It is a pretty easy assurance to give, because as my hon. Friend talks to me about it nearly every day it would be difficult to forget it.

May I express the hope that my right hon. Friend's visit to York will be but one of a series of regional visits? Is he aware that arts and heritage organisations all over the country would be very glad to see and talk to him about their problems?

I assure the House that I have every intention of visiting as many parts of the country as I can, in order to find out the problems and see what I can do to help.

Given that the right hon. Gentleman has responded favourably to the question, does he recognise that a complete change of situation has taken place? It used to be thought impossible to have a national museum outside London.

Events have shown that the hon. Gentleman's constituency has housed the National Railway museum with extreme skill and care.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science to what extent he is consulting those private sector companies that give money to the arts on the artistic activities or companies which are in most need of support.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied with the level of growth of private and business sponsorship of the arts.

During the last year, business sponsorship of the arts has continued to grow and I shall keep in close touch with developments. In particular, I should like to see advantages of business sponsorship better appreciated by businesses and the smaller arts organisations in the regions.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply and add my congratulations on his appointment to this very important position in the Government, but may I remind him of a splendid publication that was issued by his predecessor? It would help to encourage the business world to sponsor the arts further.

I am well aware of that publication. I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. It is essential to supplement public support of the arts by private business sponsorship. I am glad to tell the House that such sponsorship has been growing at a fast rate during the past few years.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received concerning the Arts Council's current policies.

I have received a number of letters about the Arts Council's decision late last year to withdraw a number of grants.

When my right hon. Friend sees the chairman of the Arts Council, will he bear in mind that there is some strength in the view that Arts Council grants should be concentrated on those companies that make the most effective use of them in enriching the lives of our people? Does my right hon. Friend accept that that cannot be achieved if, at the same time, it is said that those grants should be spread as widely as possible?

That is the inevitable dilemma of the Arts Council. In principle, it must be right for the Arts Council to be able to withdraw grants so that money can be given to companies that are coming up. Such companies can then be given a chance. I should like to talk to the Arts Council about the way in which things were done and about whether the decision was right.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has any plans to visit the regions to discuss provision for the arts.

Yes, Sir. I want to see what is happening in as many places as possible outside London, so that I can learn what both the problems and the achievements have been.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer and for the one that he gave a few minutes ago. Has he an itinerary that he can put before the House of the places that he will visit during the next few months?

I think that I had perhaps better write to my hon. Friend with details. I am starting next month, and I shall go on. I hope to visit Staffordshire in the autumn.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what arts bodies in Wales he funds.

Part of the grants to the Arts Council of Great Britain, the British Film Institute and the Crafts Council are passed on to the Welsh Arts Council for the support of bodies such as the regional arts associations in Wales, the Welsh National Opera, the Welsh Film Board, various theatres, arts centres, and so on. Full details are given in the Welah Arts Council's annual reports.

If the Minister has discussions with the Welsh Arts Council, will he raise the question of the distribution of the grants within Wales, to ensure that the arts are available to the maximum possible extent in all parts of Wales?.

I shall certainly look at that, although I rather think that is it is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. I shall discuss with my right hon. Friend which of us should do this. If it is a matter for my right hon. Friend, I shall draw his attention to what the hon. Gentleman has said.