asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what assessment he has made of the effect of increased fees on the numbers and countries of origin of overseas students.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will conduct an investigation to find out the effects of Government policy of increasing fees for overseas students.

The effect of increased fees, and other factors, on the numbers and countries of origin of overseas students is already being investigated as part of a continuing exercise to monitor the effects of full-cost fees policy. I refer the hon. Member to the reply which my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary gave to the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) on 30 April.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Prime Minister gave a commitment to the President of Nigeria on his recent visit that she would look again at the whole policy? Was the right hon. and learned Gentleman consulted before the Prime Minister gave that undertaking?

I cannot confirm whether any such undertaking was given. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the number of students coming from Nigeria to universities last year was an increase on the figure for the previous year.

Is not the Secretary of State ashamed that he is personally responsible for charging overseas students from some of the poorest countries the highest fees in the world? Combined with the other cuts in higher education, is not the Secretary of State aware that the viability of certain courses, especially technology-based courses in some of the Scottish colleges and universities, is threatened to such an extent that home students as well as overseas students will suffer unless that disastrous policy is changed?

I am certainly not ashamed. It was necessary to take the steps because the subsidy being paid indiscriminately to all students from overseas was running at over £100 million a year. It was being paid by the British taxpayer. We believed that it was right that that indiscriminate subsidy should be phased out.

Has my right hon. and learned Friend observed the view in the Brandt report that overseas aid, particularly for students, should not be indiscriminate but should be channelled towards the poorer countries? When, economically, he is able to reconsider the matter, will he bear that view in mind? Will he also bear in mind the real contribution that we can make not only at degree but also at sub-degree level?

I share my hon. Friend's desire that any aid that we can give should be channelled towards the most deserving countries. My basic criticism of the plan that we inherited is that it did not attempt to discriminate in any way in the assistance given. If and when resources become available, we should be more discriminating in the aid that we give.

Can the Secretary of State confirm that in this academic year the number of students coming from Hong Kong has dropped by about 40 per cent. which is mirrored by an equivalent increase in the number going to the United States? Is the Secretary of State not concerned about that in view of the growing importance of Hong Kong as the commercial and financial centre of the Pacific basin and its importance to this country?

I cannot confirm the figures without notice, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that over 1,000 university students came here from Hong Kong last year, which was the third highest number from any country. The figure for Hong Kong students in advanced and non-advanced colleges of further education was 3,870, which was again the third largest. In 1980–81, the figure for all overseas students entering our universities was down by 10 per cent. on the previous year.

If the Minister will not yield to arguments of altruism, will he consider arguments of self-interest? Is he prepared to enumerate the courses in universities, polytechnics and colleges of education that are in peril because of the massive fall-off in the number of overseas students?

I do not accept that argument. The number of overseas students coming to our universities was down last year by only 10 per cent. We still have more overseas students coming here now than under the quota system of the previous Government. However, if the demand for certain courses drops off, there may have to be rationalisation.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he intends to make a statement on the recognition of the Association of Polytechnic Teachers in response to its formal application which he received on 16 November 1979.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now announce his decision on the application from the Association of Polytechnic Teachers for a seat on the Burnham committee; and if he will make a statement.

I have had a series of representations on these matters and intend to announce my conclusion within a month.

Since it is manifestly unfair that settlements reached in the Burnham further education committee should be imposed on lecturers without representation, will the Secretary of State ensure that the APT is adequately represented on the committee?

There is no distinction in the pay structure or other nationally agreed conditions of service between teachers employed in polytechnics and those employed elsewhere in public sector further education, but I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's point in mind in reaching my conclusion.

Is the Secretary of State aware that there are at least half a dozen questions down on this matter, basically from Conservative Members? Is he further aware that such teachers are adequately represented on the Burnham committee by the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education? Does he accept that the Tory questions will tend to divide the teachers on the committee and weaken their position and that that is the ulterior motive behind the support for the APT?

My hon. Friends have several questions down on the Order Paper, as the matter is of interest to them. The hon. Gentleman holds the opposite opinion to the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder). Overall, in further and higher education in the maintained sector the APT represents only 3·6 per cent. of teachers and lecturers, but in polytechnics alone it represents 16·4 per cent.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that we put down the questions because we wanted polytechnic teachers to be recognised by the union of their choice? Does he accept that, although we are pleased that he will be announcing his decision in a month, we hope that it will be a positive one?

Having said that I shall announce my decision within a month, I do not think that my hon. Friend would expect me to prejudge the issue.

Does the Minister accept that, although 16 per cent.—or 2,000—of polytechnic teachers are members of the APT, many more are represented by NATFHE, and that it would be absurd to encourage further segration in the representation of polytechnic teachers?

On 31 December last year, the relevant membership of the APT was 2,756, which is 16·4 per cent. of potential membership in polytechnics.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to improve the special facilities within the education system for children with speaking difficulties.

It is the responsibility of each local education authority to ensure that the educational facilities available in its area are adequate to meet the needs of all the children of the area. The Government's views are set out in the White Paper "Special Needs in Education", which forms the basis for the Education Bill currently before Parliament.

Is it not time that the Minister and the Government realised that their actions over the past two years have made it difficult for local education authorities to maintain, let alone to improve, the special facilities for those poor children with speaking difficulties and that even dyslexia cannot now be catered for? When will the Government take steps to see that such children are properly educated? Leaving aside the provision of new facilities, will the Minister take action over Greenside special school in the Barnsley metropolitan area, which is threatened with closure?

The hon. Gentleman has asked wide-ranging questions. He raised the local problem at the previous Question Time, and we have exchanged correspondence since. The problem is very much one for the local authority. Local education authorities can employ speech therapists. My Department, far from taking no action, has given a grant to the Invalid Children's Aid Association, which has also had a further grant for language unit provision, which was the subject of the hon. Gentleman's original question.

Is my hon. Friend aware that many years have passed since Professor Randolph Quirk made his report on the speech therapy profession and many local authorities are finding it extremely difficult to provide facilities for speech therapists and to pay them a proper professional salary? Will the Government help local education authorities? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that it is sometimes mistakenly believed that the problem concerns dialect, but that it is essential to have speech therapists in dialect as well as speech therapists with an Oxbridge accent?

I am certainly aware that the Quirk report's recommendations have been out for some time. Essentially this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. The Association for All Speech-Impaired Children has expressed its concern to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and to the DHSS. We want local authorities to respond to the requirements of the schools in their areas. Local education authorities are best suited to judge what is needed there.

Will the Minister confirm that it is still the Government's policy to improve provision for children with special educational needs? Is it also their policy to promote the integration of such children into normal schools where appropriate? If so, will the hon. Gentleman now exert his influence to ensure that the proper amount of money is available to local education authorities to enable them to make satisfactory provision for children with speech defects as well as for many other children with partial or significant learning difficulties?

Funding is essentially a matter for the local education authority. My Department already funds the Invalid Children's Aid Association, which has been given a grant to collate for use at other schools and units curriculum material and teaching methods in use at its John Horniman school at Worthing. A tremendous amount is happening in this area. The association has also recently established an information service on language provision with financial assistance from my Department.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is often difficult to define whether a serious speech difficulty exists? Is not good speech important for all pupils, and should not the curriculum take account of that?

I accept that. Although some 70 per cent. of speech therapists are concerned with educating children, they are appointed and employed by the National Health Service. My Department's officials maintain continual contact with their colleagues in the DHSS, and similar liaison is encouraged by the local education authorities and the area health authorities in this matter.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he is satisfied that the teacher in polytechnics and other institutions of higher education is adequately represented for the purposes of collective bargaining under the present arrangements.

The only aspect of this question that falls within my responsibility is the determination of the composition of the Burnham further education committee, which negotiates pay. On that matter, I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave some moments ago.

In view of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's announcement earlier that he intends to announce a decision within a month on representation of the Association of Polytechnic Teachers, will he accept, from one who on this side of the House is in a minority, that 16 per cent. is a substantial minority? These people have been waiting since November 1979 for a decision, so a decision will be welcome if it is in the affirmative.

I regret that I have not yet been in a position to make the decision. There has been a series of representations which I have had to take into account. I shall come to a conclusion as soon as I can.

Does the Secretary of State consider that the proliferation of organisations representing teachers will make it more difficult for decisions and agreements to be reached in the solution of industrial problems? Does he recognise that this group of teachers is already represented by NATFHE, and that any change in the arrangement is likely to be a recipe for prolonged industrial difficulties?

The teachers in question are clearly not represented by NATFHE because they are not members of that association. That is the purpose of their application. Of course I have to consider all these reasons when reaching my conclusion. There are other bodies than NATFHE on the further education committee.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the effects of the proposed cuts in education expenditure on Scottish universities and other forms of higher education.

The allocation of the Government's grant to individual universities, including those in Scotland, is a matter for the University Grants Committee. Higher education in Scotland, other than universities, is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Does the Minister realise that the proposed cut in university expenditure of one-eighth over two years is causing profound concern? Is he aware that it was described by Sir Alec Merrison, chairman of the vice-principals committee, as a profoundly stupid policy? That is an understatement, since the cuts will result in thousands of young people being deprived of higher education. Is it not a callous and stupid policy, which is bound to have a long-term effect on industrial development in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom?

The suggested cut is between 8 and 8½ per cent. over three years. There will be a fall in student numbers because of the reduction in the number of overseas students, although many universities, such as the London School of Economics, have recruited even more overseas students this year. In our university system there are already fewer pupils per member of staff than anywhere else in the world. The figure is half the average for Yale and Harvard, which are recognised universities. If it transpired that in three years' time there was one pupil more per member of staff than now, that would suffice to cover all the cuts.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not so much the cuts as the speed with which they are made that is causing the concern? Does he agree that if the cuts are made in too great haste the very disciplines that he would like to encourage and preserve might be first hit?

I appreciate my hon. Friend's point. The important consideration is to ensure that the cuts are made over the three-year period without touching the fabric of the system. That is why we are having discussions with the University Grants Committee, and why the committee is having discussions with the universities to ensure that the minimum damage is done.

Is it honourable for the Government simply to pass by on the other side and say that this is a matter for the UGC? What advice do the Government have for the University of Glasgow which finds the greatest difficulty in obtaining money for essential repairs? Its buildings are deteriorating. That is hardly wise management.

At times of expansion the UGC has been defended for having stopped direct Government interference. The same defence must apply now. The academics must be left to make the major decisions. They—and Labour Members—would be the first to complain if we gave the committee directions from the centre.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that the Government participate in discussions with the UGC and the universities in order to try to concentrate the minority departments in one or two universities in Scotland instead of having them in every university? That is extremely wasteful and will become increasingly so as the number of students declines when the decline in school rolls hits the university population.

Next year will see a peak in the number of 18-year-olds going up to university. There will be a drop thereafter of up to 30 per cent. however. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for having reminded me of that fact. Rationalisation should happen not only in universities in order to give economic numbers of students for courses, but across the binary line. Colleges of further education and polytechnics in the same area should not compete for students but should complement one another's provision of courses.

By cutting the money available to the UGC, the Minister is giving central direction. Is he aware that, within the universities, from governing body level through staff to students, there is deep concern and great anger at what is happening? The sort of facility that is suffering is in libraries where services are not available and up-to-date books cannot be provided. How can the Government be proud of running a university system like that?

We all realise that there is concern. There has been continued expansion for 35 years. When that expansion ends and reassessment has to be made, the university system is in a new ball game. The hon. Gentleman asked about equipment. We are spending the same on it this year in real terms as last year, and when we came to power we increased the amount spent by the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the progress of the assisted places scheme.

Two hundred and twenty schools will be providing assisted places from September of this year. Participation agreements have been made for 204 of them and are being prepared for the remainder. A total of 5,439 assisted places will be available, of which 984 will be at sixth-form level, and the schools are currently engaged in the selection of assisted pupils.

Why is not the right hon. and learned Gentleman honest about the matter? Why does he not admit that, despite all the fine things said about it, the scheme is a monumental flop? More importantly, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman put an end to the scheme so that the money spent on it can be put to use on the essential aspects of the service, which are being seriously neglected?

With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, and although we may differ on the scheme's purpose, I must reject what he said about what is happening in practice. Obviously, it is too early to give the full numbers involved. However, all the indications are that the scheme is going well.

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the nation needs more public schoolboys not fewer, with their qualities of leadership and discipline and with their ability to mix with all types of people in society?

I am aware that the assisted places scheme will both widen parental choice and increase educational opportunity.

Will the Secretary of State inform his hon. Friend that few public schools are engaged in the scheme? They have been running away from the scheme since its announcement. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman further aware that the available evidence shows that applicants for assisted places come from a class of home that bears a close resemblance to that from which direct grant school pupils came? Is the aim of providing private education for the children of the poor being fulfilled? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall the words—[Interruption]. I know that Conservative Members are embarrassed about the assisted places scheme and do not want to hear about it. Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman recall that Mrs. Mary Warnock said that when Ministers dismiss the £3 million that is being spent on the assisted places scheme this year as chickenfeed, it should be borne in mind that there are other chickens, including disabled children, to feed with that money?

First, I am aware that out of over 200 schools invited to join the scheme, 11 declined. Secondly, I think that it is right to say that every direct grant school that was forced into independence by the Labour Government has joined the scheme. Thirdly, all the indications contradict the hon. Gentleman's remarks. It would seem that the individual grant per child, based on the parents' income, will be higher than we had assumed because most of the places are going to parents of modest means.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what were the average ratios of pupils per qualified teacher in all maintained primary and secondary schools in each local education authority in England for the years 1978, 1979, 1980 and for the latest available date.

I am pleased to tell the House that the ratio of pupils per qualified teacher in maintained primary and secondary schools in England improved consistently in each year from 1978–80. The information for 1981 is at present being collated. I shall arrange to send my hon. Friend statistical bulletins with the information for each local education authority.

Although I eagerly await the figures for 1978 onwards, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he agrees that when those figures are published they will reflect a better pupil-teacher ratio than for any of the years that the Labour Party was in office.

I confirm my hon. Friend's point. In January 1981 the overall pupil-teacher-ratio in England was 18·6:1. That is the lowest figure that has ever been achieved. In 1978, the pupil-teacher ratio was 19·7:1; in 1979 it was 19·4:1; in 1980, 18·9:1 and in 1981—the year with the lowest figure ever—18·6:1.

Does not the Minister realise that giving the figures for pupil-teacher ratios disguises what is happening in schools? Is he not aware that if a specialist teacher leaves a secondary school and is not replaced because of falling rolls, a subject is often dropped from the curriculum? Does not he accept that if one of eight members of staff in a primary school leaves, and there are only seven teachers for eight classes, the school either has to split up the years or accept a very large class? That is what is happening in schools. Does not the hon. Gentleman realise that?

Like the hon. Gentleman, I am an ex-teacher. His subject was mathematics and I am told that he taught very well. [Interruption.] The figures are as accurate as the hon. Gentleman would accept when marking an exercise book. We have reduced the number of teachers by only half the drop in the number of pupils, because we are aware of the position. Since local education authorities and head teachers know that they have better pupil-teacher ratios, it is up to them to use the extra teachers in a way that will prevent such a situation from arising.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the pupil-teacher ratio is not the only determinant of quality in our schools? The quality of teaching is far more important.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question and comment. Indeed, I agree with him. In 1977, under the Labour Government, 37 per cent. of those accepted in colleges of education did not have O-level mathematics and 5 per cent. did not have O-level English. The fact that colleges of education are accepting only those with O-levels in English and maths and two A-levels will do more for teacher training that 100 Royal Commissions.

Is the hon. Gentleman attempting to contradict the evidence of Her Majesty's Inspectorate? Is he aware that the chief inspector said that it would be a miracle if the curriculum were maintained and gave the very reason that my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Mitchell) outlined? What will the hon. Gentleman do to maintain the curriculum, as he has a duty to do under the Education Act 1944, if there are gaps in it as a result of falling school rolls?

I am glad to assure the hon. Gentleman that the Conservative side of the House b believes in miracles. The degree of spiritual aspiration among Conservative Members is intense. The problem of the content of the curriculum has not arisen solely as a result of a recent report from Her Majesty's Inspectorate. For 10 to 15 years we have said that there has been a retreat from the basic curriculum. We have published documents which suggest that there should be a return to basic subects such as English, mathematics, history and geography. That will do more to show what should be taught in schools than anything that has been done for a long time.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of young people in the various temporary employment schemes of the Manpower Services Commission is receiving further education.

In 1979–80 38 per cent. of young people who participated in the work experience elements of the youth opportunities programme received some form of off-the-job training. The MSC hopes shortly to have more recent information.

Has the Minister seen the report of the West Cumberland Training Association, which links work experience with further education in traineeship modules? Will he put it to the Under-Secretary of State for Employment that perhaps money could miraculously be brought forward to set up some experimental modules?

That may be the case in certain areas of the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman must pursue the matter with the Department of Employment. However, the MSC is examining closely with local education authorities the scope that exists for all trainees to receive some form of off-the-job training. It is important that the education service should be brought alongside the special programmes boards to ensure that such experiments can be discussed at all local area levels.

As the education content in the MSC's programmes is improving in quality, is there not a special responsibility upon careers officers this summer to ensure that there is a 100 per cent. take-up of the courses available to male and female school leavers?

Yes. I want to place on record that the careers service generally has never been more aware of the need to adapt and adjust in local areas. I accept that the Manpower Services Commission's role in assessing the quality of vocational training is an integral part of any assessment.

Has the Minister seen the recent Youth Aid report which shows how few people who go through the MSC scheme have the opportunity of real work afterwards in the dust-bowl society produced by the Government? Is it not obligatory for the DES to meet the MSC half way and to produce a programme with a real educational content to help young people who take part in the MSC programme?

Not everybody in the scheme require an educational element. I accept the importance of the current consultations between the Department and the MSC. The new training initiative which will be announced in the next few weeks is an important element.

Does my hon. Friend agree that his Department and the Department of Employment should get together to see what can be done to encourage young people who are not in the youth opportunities scheme, and therefore do not receive any pay, to stay in education? Should not they receive recompense for doing so?

I want the House to understand fully that my Department is actively engaged at all levels in discussion on the matter. I hope that the education services in the regions are also fully involved.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what is his policy regarding the recommendations of the report "Discipline or Disorder in Schools: a Disturbing Choice" by the National Association of Schoolmasters and Union of Women Teachers.

The pamphlet contains a number of useful comments and suggestions on matters which are primarily the responsibility of local education authorities and schools.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the report shows that teachers are worried because some authorities are not taking action against parents when they aid and abet truancy and delinquency? Does he agree that more co-operation between parents, education authorities and teachers would help teachers when dealing with difficult and delinquent pupils?

I agree that the report shows that anxiety and the Government share it. The report also shows that many teachers, particularly the authors of the pamphlet, resent the fact that some local education authorities are stipulating whether corporal or other punishment can be used in schools. The report makes it clear that such a decision should be made in the schools by the profession, not by laymen outside.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether following its overall examination of the service provided by the Inner London Education Authority he will ask Her Majesty's Inspectorate to make similar examinations of other education authorities.

I rely on Her Majesty's Inspectorate for a range of information and advice relevant to policies on education. The information and advice is based on inspection and can, where appropriate, take the form of an assessment of the provision of education throughout a local education authority.

In view of that reply, will the Secretary of State change his policies and ask HMI to publish an overall assessment of the education services provided, for example, by the Cheshire and Northamptonshire county councils? Alternatively, is the Secretary of State willing to rely entirely on the scrutiny of the electorate when assessing the value of the education service provided by those authorities?

Although I have the power to direct the inspectorate to carry out a particular form of investigation, I believe that it is better for the inspectorate to decide where it does its work and which schools it should inspect.

If ILEA is to be controlled by Labour, does my right hon. Friend accept that the leadership provided until recently by Sir Ashley Bramall was much more acceptable than the new leadership elected last Saturday is likely to be, bearing in mind that the new leadership is motivated more by the teachings of Karl Marx than by the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Sir Ashley and I have had many differences on policy matters, but he has led ILEA for 10 years. Everybody will accept that he has been extremely dedicated in that task. I share the distaste of many of the method by which he was removed from office.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he now envisages publication of required schools information for parents; and what measures he intends to take to ensure that such information has the fullest possible distribution.

The Education (School Information) Regulations 1981 were laid before the House on 1 May. They prescribe the information to be published by local education authorities and school governors and the manner of publication and distribution. Publication will start in the 1981–2 academic year.

Does the Minister accept that the provision of information is not enough? Will he assure the House that the information will be publicised and that, in areas with ethnic minorities, the information will be multi-lingual?

That is incumbent upon the local education authorities. We expect that most authorities will wish to publish the information this autumn or soon after Christmas. I urge them strongly to do that.

The Minister is placing another statutory duty on local education authorities. Will he confirm that Government money will be provided to meet in full the cost of the extra statutory duties which the Government are imposing upon education authorities?

That is a matter for the local education authorities, which have been consulted fully throughout all the negotiations leading up to legislation last year.

asked the Prime Minister when she next plans to meet the President of France.

I expect to meet the President of France next at the European Council on 29 and 30 June.

Does my right hon. Friend recall the French proverb "À nouveaux seigneurs nouvelles lois"?[Interruption]

Order. We must all understand what is being said. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will translate.

With pleasure, Mr. Speaker. It means "New brooms sweep clean." To what extent does my right hon. Friend think that the advent of M. Mitterrand may sweep away some of the procrustean obstacles to change and enable us to start on the vital task of reforming the EEC budget system whilst Britain holds the Presidency of the Community?

It is not for me to adjudge between the personalities of the people that France chooses to lead her. The problems are difficult but they remain the same. The reform of the common agricultural policy and the budget structure are vital issues which we must undertake to tackle this year and seek, at any rate, a preliminary solution by the end of the year. Britain will go ahead determined to seek those solutions.

May I thank the Prime Minister for the speed and generosity with which she sent her congratulations to President Mitterrand on his great victory for Socialism? Does she agree that one element in that victory was the recognition by the people of France that there is a real alternative to the defeatist policy of accepting mass unemployment? Does she agree that the elections nearer home show exactly the same spirit rising in Britain?

Of course I send congratulations to anyone elected by the democratic system, in which I wholly believe. That reminds me that I have not sent congratulations to Berlin, where Socialism was defeated.

Following the arrangements that the right hon. Lady has just announced, may I ask whether she has sent congratulations to the hundreds of successful Labour candidates in the election last week? If she is sending congratulations, will she spread them properly around the country?

The answer is "No". Not even the right hon. Gentleman would wish me to send congratulations to everyone. I notice that in relation to the GLC Mr. McIntosh, who was a moderate Labour victor, said:

"The danger to the Labour Party today is so great that I have decided I must expose what is going on. It's gang warfare, just like the Jets and the Sharks."

When my right hon. Friend meets the new President of France, will she impress on him the urgent need for the early completion of the common fisheries policy within the European Community?

Most certainly. Chancellor Schmidt and I are firmly agreed on the need for a common fisheries policy and on the need to achieve one shortly which is satisfactory to all members of the Community.

asked the Prime Minister what are her official engagements for 12 May.

This morning I held a press conference with Chancellor Schmidt following our meetings yesterday. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be having meetings later today with ministerial colleagues and others including one with the United Nations' Secretary-General. This evening I hope to have an audience of Her Majesty the Queen.

In view of the Prime Minister's weekend speech to the Scottish conference of the Tory Party, may we know whether she was taken up to Perth blindfolded so that she would not see the industrial deserts that she has created? With Scottish unemployment fast approaching 300,000, how can she expect us to believe all that claptrap about a dramatic industrial recovery, especially coming from the lips of the woman who has wrought more damage to Scottish industry in two years than the Kaiser and Hitler managed to achieve in two world wars?

I would expect even the hon. Gentleman to rejoice in the many orders that Scottish industry has recently won. I think that he prefers it not to get orders because he wants to wallow in misery.

Has my right hon. Friend noted from a parliamentary answer that there are now more than 16,000 pre-1950 widows of non-commissioned ranks receiving pensions granted by her Government? Does she take pride in that, bearing in mind that the Labour Government said that it was administratively impossible?

We most certainly take pride in that, as do the many widows involved and the Armed Services.

When the Prime Minister has her meeting this afternoon with her ministerial colleagues, will she consider which of them are overdue for elevation to the other House? Is she aware that last week 395 Liberals were elected to local authorities? Is it not time that we had some parliamentary by-elections?

We have already had a list of people elevated to the other House. It is not my intention to make another list of working life peers.

Despite her busy day, will my right hon. Friend reflect on the fact that production of all Mini-Metros at the Longbridge plant and of all Ford Escorts at Halewood has been stopped by unofficial strikes? Does she not agree that unions and management must end the tradition of unofficial strikes, otherwise the British motor industry will destroy itself, with catastrophic effects on the entire economy?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. We have two cars that are acknowledged winners—the Escort and the Metro. It is crazy that those who produce them should be on strike. They are putting in jeopardy their own jobs and the jobs of many others who supply them. If unemployment is increased because of that and because of this country's bad reputation abroad for strikes, they will have only themselves to blame.

In relation to the evidence, to which I have drawn the Prime Minister's attention, that mortar attacks on our security forces are being organised from the Irish Republic, may I ask whether the right hon. Lady is aware that the people of Northern Ireland rely on her to take a tough line with the Irish Government?

The hon. Gentleman drew my attention to the mortar attacks on border posts, which, we believe, from forensic evidence, involve mortars of a sort produced by the IRA, although I cannot confirm the other matters referred to in the hon. Gentleman's letter. I shall continue wholeheartedly the full guarantee to the people of Northern Ireland which is enshrined in legislation. However, we must strive to work for peace and reconciliation with the Republic.

asked the Prime Minister how many hon. Members she has seen on matters relating to factory closures since she last answered oral questions; and how many jobs are expected to be lost in the closures discussed.

I have had no such meetings since 7 May.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that, as a result of her industrial gang war policy, unemployment due to closures in the Northern region has nearly doubled since the general election? Is she aware that in Cumbria it has doubled and in the West Cumbrian constituencies it has more than doubled? It will be almost 19 per cent. to 20 per cent. in the next few months. Will she tell our constituents in the Northern region when those factories that now stand empty will be put back to work under her policies?

There will be more factories in work, and new factories started, when people are prepared to purchase the goods and services produced. I am aware of the steel problem in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. He should know that steel has been over-manned for years. If the Labour Government had tackled the problem more vigorously we would have had a better equipped and more efficient steel industry. Consequently, we would now have a larger share of the world market. That problem must be dealt with. Until it is we shall not have a flourishing industry able to compete with any the world over.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in the trading estates in the Northern region in the past 12 months there have been three times as many new openings as there have been closures? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Look at the facts. Many of those new openings are small factories and there is a buoyant demand for more new small factories. To continue with the good news, is my right hon. Friend aware that a £14 million order for a Norwegian bulk carrier to be built on the Tyne was announced at a press conference in Oslo this morning?

We are always ready to accord congratulations to those many companies that are gaining new orders against competition from the rest of the world. In my speech in Scotland I gave lists of them. Many companies are doing extremely well. We accord congratulations to those many small companies that are starting up in the new factories to which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry gives great priority. I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on introducing an enterprise Budget which gives many people the opportunities, if they will take them. [Interruption.] The Opposition sit and laugh but do not produce jobs.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that last Thursday, GEC Small Machines Ltd. announced its proposal to close its factory at Thorne in my constituency? That would mean a loss of 424 jobs in an area which is already an unemployment black spot. Will she have urgent consultations with GEC in an effort to avert that further severe loss?

The hon. Gentleman and many of his colleagues always miss one point. To keep factories in existence one needs customers and to get customers one needs to be competitive. There was no shortage of demand in this country last year. There was a shortage in the supply of goods produced at competitive prices, with good delivery dates, to fill that demand. Until industry becomes competitive we shall not produce the jobs, but other companies in other countries will.

Tedious.

Tedious it may be, but it is the truth.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that to use taxpayers' money to support jobs in one sector of the economy merely takes money away from the profitable and productive side of the economy?

We must ensure that we do not take too heavily from those successful companies to subsidise other companies, unless, by taking that subsidy, they are prepared to restructure themselves, to slim their operations down so that they become competitive. In that case we give them subsidies to do so.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Tuesday 12 May.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Can the Prime Minister explain the curious logic of the present public sector pay policy? What is the logic of tearing up the negotiating machinery for the Civil Service while respecting that of the Armed Services? What is the logic of limiting to 7 per cent. the pay of the Civil Service and other groups, while allowing 11 per cent. or even more to other public servants in the Armed Services, or public servants who have a little more industrial clout? How can she expect to solve the Civil Service dispute with twisted logic of that nature?

I shall be making a statement shortly, when the reports have been printed, about the parts of the public service which are the subject of reviews by independent review bodies. We feel that a Civil Service award of 7 per cent. is as much as the private sector can afford to finance at present. That award is on top of previous awards of 50 per cent. during the past two years. The Civil Service may have complaints against the last Government concerning inadequate pay, but we do not believe that it has complaints against this Government. Incidentally, I understand from Chancellor Schmidt that the German Civil Service has just settled for 4·3 per cent.