asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to introduce legislation to improve the enforcement of planning control in the Province.

It is hoped to introduce legislation in the next Session on the enforcement of planning control in Northern Ireland. The proposed order will include provision for appeals against enforcement notices to be decided by the planning appeals commission, instead of by courts of petty sessions as at present.

Does the Minister recognise that this will be a valuable change in the law and that it is urgent to bring it into force in view of the spreading recognition of this loophole in planning enforcement? Is he aware that the legislation will receive the support of my hon. Friends and myself?

We are always grateful for support from any part of the House for the provisions that we introduce. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the main change will be to transfer appeals against enforcement notices from the petty sessions to the planning appeals commission. That will prevent the common evasion tactic of concurrent planning application and appeal to the petty sessions court.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a need to improve the law and the regulations on the serving and implementation of enforcement notices elsewhere in the United Kingdom? Will the changes be uniform throughout the United Kingdom? Has my hon. Friend consulted my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment?

Changes affecting Great Britain are not matters for my Department. I can assure my hon. Friend that the steps that we are taking are to bring the law in Northern Ireland more closely into line with that in the rest of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province.

Between last May and early July the violent disturbances which occurred in some parts of the Province virtually died out. Not surprisingly, there has been some fresh rioting since the deaths of two more hunger strikers on 8 and 13 July, though not on the scale of that in April and May. The police and the Army have dealt effectively with these outbursts but have suffered a number of injuries in the process. One youth, one of a group in a vehicle loaded with petrol bombs which attempted to force its way past the guard at a bus depot, was shot dead by soldiers on 8 July. On 9 July a woman died from injuries sustained the day before, alleged to have been caused by a baton round. Another youth died of gunshot wounds after a shooting attack on the security forces who returned fire. These incidents are the subject of police investigation.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is now a certain commonality between the policing problems in Northern Ireland and those in England? In those circumstances, has he any plans for members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary to be appointed to the staff of the police training college at Bramshill? Will the fire resistant overalls which are to be made available to police on the mainland also be issued to the Royal Ulster Constabulary and to our troops in Northern Ireland in view of the danger that they run from attacks by fire bombs?

In the comparison between Northern Ireland and England, the terrorist element is, happily, missing in England in street disturbances. The Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Army have to face not only disturbances on the streets but determined men who are tying to use those disturbances for their own ends and to shoot, kill and maim the security forces.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply, but does he agree that the recent visit by mainland chief officers of police to Northern Ireland pays a general tribute to the expertise that the RUC has acquired in recent years? Furthermore, does he also agree that recent operations by the security forces, particularly by the Army at the recent funeral when a firing party was seized, show great initiative, which has met with widespread approval and which should be commended by all concerned?

Yes, Sir. The recent visit by people from the Metropolitan Police force to Northern Ireland is part of the normal co-operation which is extended between one police force and another. The RUC is always ready to help in any way it can. I agree with my hon. Friend that the arrest of people at the recent funeral was a good exercise. As I have already said, decisions must be left to the judgment of the security commander on the spot. He exercised his judgment in this case with good results.

Will the right hon. Gentleman send a message of congratulation to the President of the United States for rejecting the attempts by the Dublin Government to involve him on the side of the Provisional IRA terrorists? Will he deliver a protest to the Government in the Republic for its actions, which included putting the lives of the Provisional IRA and its political life before the lives of decent people in Northern Ireland?

I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but I must tell him that communications between Governments are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary.

Does the Secretary of State agree that there is rising concern in Northern Ireland about the use of plastic bullets, in particular about the circumstances surrounding the death of the lady last week? Is he also aware of the great discontent that has been caused by a statement by his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in the House that plastic bullets would not be used in this part of the United Kingdom for riot control? If plastic bullets are to be used in Northern Ireland, they should be used here as well. I suggest that they should not be used at all, but if they are used against only one section of the population—in Northern Ireland—that will give rise to a great deal of concern that double standards are being applied. Will the right hon. Gentleman do what he can to expedite the inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the death of the lady whom he mentioned in his original answer?

None of us wants the police to use plastic bullets anywhere in the United Kingdom. I remind the hon. Gentleman and the House of the circumstances faced by the police in Northern Ireland. They face large numbers of determined people who throw petrol bombs, acid bombs, nail bombs and blast bombs at them, and they have to protect themselves. The judgment of the Chief Constable is that the best way of containing the situation, using minimum force, is by the use of the plastic baton round. No one would be more pleased than he or I if that could be stopped. It can be stopped at any moment if the rioting stops too.

Will the Secretary of State take it from me that many people in Northern Ireland have been greatly encouraged not only by the actions of the security forces at the funeral of Joseph McDonnell but at the recent search and seizure operation at Divis flats, where many arms were found? Given the success of that operation, will the Secretary of State now recommend that such operations be stepped up?

I shall pass on to the Chief Constable the hon. Member's congratulations. All of us are pleased when law breakers are brought to justice. That is the basis of what we are seeking to do and it is what everyone wants. The precise operations which are carried out by the police are and must remain a matter for the Chief Constable. Of course, he has my full backing in everything he does.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the increasing evidence of pressure being extended to the Roman Catholic community to support the various H block marches? What steps does he intend to take to remove from society those who are putting that pressure on the Roman Catholic population in many areas, including my village of Dungiven?

Anyone who does anything unlawful should be brought before the courts. That is what we continually seek to do. I am aware that pressure is being put on people to join H block marches and other such marches. It has not been successful because it seems that attendance at such marches is not on the increase but on the decrease.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress is being made in the efforts to recapture those involved in the breakout from the Crumlin Road prison on 10 June.

The Royal Ulster Constabulary is making every effort to recapture these men, but it would not be in the public interest to say how it is going about it. At least one of the eight is now thought to be in the Republic of Ireland, where I am confident that the authorities will continue their efforts to bring him and any of the others who may be in their jurisdiction to justice.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply, but is he content in the knowledge that one or more of those escapees seems to be able to live and move freely and with impunity in the Republic? If he is not content in that knowledge, what steps are he and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State taking to end that position?

As far as I am aware, it is only hearsay that one or more of those escaped prisoners has been sighted in the Republic. I am confident that if those men were openly moving around in the Republic, they would be arrested and brought to trial.

If the escaped terrorist in the Republic is apprehended there, what charges will be brought against him under the extra-territorial legislation?

I believe that I am right in saying that the Republic's Extra-Territorial Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act would be implemented and activated by the crimes which the men concerned committed—that is to say, breaking out of a Northern Ireland gaol.

Is the Minister aware that one of those escapees appeared publicly at a press conference in the Republic? Is it not his duty to put his extra-territorial powers into operation to have that man arrested and brought to trial, even in the Republic?

It would be the responsibility of the authorities in the Republic, if the man appeared in public, to arrest him under the appropriate legislation. I have heard reports that he has appeared, but not in such a way as to make it possible for him to be apprehended at that moment.

Will the Minister say something not only about the recapture of those men but about the inquiry into the prison break? There are all sorts of rumours, and when rumours start to emanate from Northern Ireland they can quickly gather ground. What stage has the inquiry reached? Will the Minister scotch some of the rumors about the lack of security in the prison at the time of break-out, because those rumouurs are spreading? At the same time, to show the even-handedness of the Government, it is as well to state that there have been other finds of arms, not only at the Divis flats but at the UDA headquarters. There was to be an inquiry into that. How far has it developed?

I regret that I cannot reply to the latter question without notice, but I shall see that the right hon. Gentleman is informed. The inquiry by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons into the escape is being conducted as rapidly and as vigorously as possible. The Chief Inspector has completed his local inquiries, having extensively interviewed and examined the situation in the prison concerned. He has now left Northern Ireland and we hope to have his report by the end of the month at the latest.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the new Government of the Republic of Ireland about Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to hold discussions with the new Government of the Republic of Ireland.

On 3 July I attended a meeting which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal had with the acting Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic and the Foreign Minister designate, at which they made known to us their views on current issues in Northern Ireland which affect them. There are no plans for further meetings at present, but meetings will take place as and when appropriate between myself and my collegues and Ministers of the new Government in the Republic.

Does the Minister agree that relations between Her Majesty's Government and the new Irish Government are unlikely to be normal until a solution has been found to the hunger strike? Is not the Irish Government's view that the dividing line between the British Government and the hunger strikers is now very narrow? Since the Irish Government support terrorism no more than we do, should not an effective effort be made by the Government to find a solution to the strike?

We have been doing our utmost for the past nine months to bring the strike to an end, and we shall continue to do so, but there is no way in which we shall abandon the two principles upon which our position has always rested. First, we shall not acknowledge that a political motive for a crime makes it less heinous, and, secondly, we shall not surrender control of the prisons to the prisoners.

Will the Minister accept that the Southern Irish Government are under far more pressure over Northern Ireland than previous Irish Governments have been? Will he also accept that on a cross-party delegation five or six years ago, when we spoke, for instance, to Garret FitzGerald and to Conor Cruise O'Brien, before he fled to The Observer, they would not take Northern Ireland into account because they did not believe that it was electorally important, but that now it is very important? Therefore, because of the massive pressures in the Republic and in Britain, should not the two Governments get together and make at least some concession to break the log jam. If they do not, we shall be killing each other for years and years. Should the right hon. Gentleman not take some action, such as allowing the prisoners to wear their own clothes in gaol, which is one of the five points?

I entirely accept that it is sensible for Ministers of both Governments to get together to discuss matters of common concern, and that is precisely what happened at the meeting held by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, which I attended. I have no doubt that the Government of the Republic have their difficulties; all Governments do. However., that is no reason for us to abandon the principles to which we have stuck, with the support of the House, for the past nine months.

In view of the Secretary of State's earlier welcome intimation that communications between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Irish Republic are the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, why did he accept this question?

I did so because the question asked what discussions I had had, and not what discussions any other Minister had had. I therefore reported to the House on the meeting. I repeat my words for the right hon. Gentleman's benefit. I attended a meeting which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal had. So I did.

Did the Eire Minister mention the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace? If so, the Secretary of State should bear in mind that that is a misnomer and that its correct name is the Irish Roman Catholic commission for Republican victory in Northern Ireland. Will he make sure that he deals with it with great care, or he will end up talking with the hunger strikers in the Maze prison?

I only know the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace by the name that it gives itself. I do not know what else it is called by other people. As the hon.

Does the Secretary of State accept that recent statements emerging from the prisoners at Long Kesh seem to recognise that the demands for political status have been withdrawn? It was on the basis of those demands that I took the stand with him in saying that they should never be given political status for the crimes that they committed. May we now be in a position where it is possible to lose face and save lives? May this issue hinge on the question of saving face and losing lives? If the Provisional IRA and its members have withdrawn the claim for political status, to which I was bitterly opposed, may there not now be room for manoeuvre?

I obviously take seriously what the hon. Gentleman says, but he places me in something of a difficulty. The next question on the Order Paper from the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Dubs) deals with precisely those matters. However, may I say that I always listen carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has to say?

Is it not rather difficult to have a close relationship with the Government of the Republic when they have apparently invited a foreign Government to intervene in Northern Ireland? Did the Irish Government consult my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary over the invitation to President Reagan to intervene?

I can only say that there was no consultation with me, but then I would not expect there to be. As I said earlier, relations with foreign countries are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. The Government of the Republic, as was said earlier, have their own difficulties, but then all of us do.

rose—

Order. I shall not be able to go around all the parties for the rest of questions if we are to make progress.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he now has any proposals to alter prison regulations in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will visit Her Majesty's prison, Maze.

As to the question of my visiting the prison, I have done so in the past and will do so again when I judge it appropriate.

Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite what he said this afternoon and on earlier occasions, many people are still genuinely puzzled as to why the hunger strike has not yet been brought to an end? Given that the prisoners have dropped their wish to be treated separately from other prisoners in the gaol, and that they appear to have conceded that there should be no para-military organisation in the gaol, what remaining issues prevent an agreement to bring the matter to an end?

I share the hon. Gentleman's puzzlement as to why the prisoners are continuing their hunger strike. They appear to have dropped their demand for differential treatment. If, therefore, they are complaining about prison conditions, which it appears that they are, they have always had the remedy available to them to complain to the European Commission of Human Rights. They do not take it, and I do not know why. However, if it is a matter of prison conditions, it seems right to accept the offer of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which has wide experience in these matters. We believe that the conditions in the Maze prison are superior to conditions in any other prison, and I am convinced that we are right. Nevertheless, it is right that the International Committee of the Red Cross should go in. In fact, I hope that it is going to the prison this afternoon. If it has comments to make, we wish to hear them.

Does the Minister agree that the Red Cross committee, though no doubt welcome, is no substitute for negotiations with the Government, who run the prisons and with whom, presumably, the hunger strikers regard themselves as being in dispute? As the Minister has specifically mentioned political status and control of prisons, and as those two conditions now appear to have been dropped, cannot negotiations now take place which will reduce the loss of life both inside and outside the prisons? Is not that something that everybody wants?

This is not a trade dispute. These men have been convicted by the courts of hideous crimes.

But these men are starving to death.

The Government's business is to carry out the sentence of the court, which is that they should be kept in prison for whatever term of years has been imposed. It is our duty to do that, and by doing that to protect the public. It is also our duty, as we judge it, to have the most humane and best regime that we can in the prisons, consistent with securing the safety of the public by keeping these people inside. This we are anxious to do. As I have said, it is my belief that conditions in the Maze are superior to those anywhere else. We shall see. The International Committee of the Red Cross, which has wide experience of prisons throughout the world, is coming to look.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that, the prisoners having made it clear in their call to the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic that he should now support all of the five points, they have dropped none of the five points? Moreover,did not the right hon. Gentleman himself say at the Dispatch Box that in his opinion those five points constitute political status?

It was not my opinion that they constituted political status. That was what the prisoners themselves said way back in 1976. It is their interpretation of political status that those five demands should be met. As regards their calls on the Government of the Republic to support them, they are trying desperately to get support wherever they can.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that as late as this morning Mr. Gerry Adams said that the International Red Cross should visit the Maze only if it intended to support the five demands? Will he go further and recommend to his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that when that international body has visited the Maze it will find time also to visit Rollestone camp, which I believe is to be used to house the rioters on the mainland, and make a decision as to whether facilities there are in any way comparable with those offered in the Maze?

I have seen the same report about what Gerry Adams said, and it is perhaps not surprising that he should have said it. As I have said, the International Committee of the Red Cross has its own standards and its own way of going about things. I have no doubt that when its representatives go into the Maze—they may even now be there—they will exercise their judgment and do their job impartially, whatever Mr. Adams may say. The International Committee of the Red Cross has not been invited to visit prisons in the rest of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the current annual per capita public expenditure devoted to Northern Ireland from central funds; and how this currently compares with the per capita pro vision from public funds in the Republic of Ireland.

The figure for 1981–82 is estimated to be £1,625 at 1980 survey prices. This is calculated on the basis of table 2.17 of the last White Paper on public expenditure—Cmnd. 8175—but also includes expenditure in Northern Ireland by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and is adjusted to take account of additional resources made available for the Northern Ireland electricity service. A comparable figure for other countries is net readily available.

Does the Minister agree that the economic condition of Northern Ireland should be regarded as of at least equal importance to its history and record of sectarian division, and that it might be of advantage in both the north and the south of Ireland if regular and full comparisons were made so chat eventually, perhaps, the advantages of co-operation or even unity might be more readily perceived?

I take note of the hon. Gentleman's point. The OECD no doubt tries to produce comparable figures and statistics for both countries, but there can be no compulsory basis for unifying and harmonising those statistics. We therefore have to make do with what we can get by scrutinising independently published figures.

Can the Minister give comparable figures for the Rother Valley?

Not without notice.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his latest consideration of constitutional changes for Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on constitutional progress in Northern Ireland.

On 2 July I announced to the House my intention to form a Northern Ireland Council and outlined my proposals for its composition and range of functions. I also told the House that I would consult the Northern Ireland political parties about the details of those proposals before inviting the House to approve them. This process has begun.

Has my right hon. Friend analysed The Sunday Times poll, which indicates that there is considerable Roman Catholic support in Northern Ireland for the Union and that about 39 per cent. of Roman Catholics would find integration acceptable? As then: is no general agreement on forms of devolution, will he give more consideration to integration?

I have seen The Sunday Times poll. My hon. Friend will remember that one of the range of functions that I shall invite the Northern Ireland Council to consider is the future form of administering the affairs of the Province. It seems to me better in the end, rather than simply relying on a poll, to collect together the elected representatives of the political parties and get them to advise me.

Since, in the legislative field, the Secretary of State could well make more use of the Northern Ireland Committee consisting of all hon. Members representing Northern Ireland in this Parliament, and in the local government sphere he could transfer more powers to district councils, why does he persist in the antediluvian idea of an advisory council?

The question of the Northern Ireland Committee of the House is more a matter for my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House than for me. I am not aware that any meeting of that Committee requested by Northern Ireland hon. Members has ever been refused. If I am wrong about that, I stand to be corrected. It is a matter for Members of the House how much use they make of that Committee.

With regard to the preliminary consultations about the advisory council, does not the Secretary of State see the impossibility of anyone engaging in what he describes as discussions on matters of detail when one of the parties is utterly opposed to the concept in principle?

The hon. Gentleman must say what he thinks is possible or impossible. I shall find it very surprising if political parties in Northern Ireland refuse to take an opportunity to discuss how they may be more closely involved and take more power in controlling their own affairs.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what initiatives the Government are taking to encourage the use of the provisions of the Education (Northern Ireland) Act 1978; and how much support it is giving to the plan to open an integrated non-sectarian school in Belfast in September.

The decision to seek controlled integrated school status under the Act is a matter for the transferor representatives in the case of a controlled school or for the trustees in the case of a voluntary school. The Government have made it clear that they will support integration wherever practical proposals are put forward and there is a local wish for it.

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for that very full reply. While he and I, and no doubt all Members of the House, fully appreciate the part that Church schools can play in education, is he aware that there is considerable support among the Roman Catholic population of Ulster for integrated non-sectarian education? Will he and the Government do their utmost to support integrated non-sectarian education and provide the necessary finance for it to take off in a big way?

Of course—wherever there is clear evidence that members of the local communities and the parents of children wish that to happen. The Government constantly face the dilemma of a society which, on the one hand, seems so divided, with segregated housing, but which, on the other hand, produces opinions to the effect that, perhaps, there should be more integrated education.

As the hon. Member responsible for that Act, I recognise the limitations to which the Minister has referred. During the next year or so, will the Government carry out a thorough review of the movement towards desegregation within schools and other education institutions in Northern Ireland, and perhaps publish a detailed report?

I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's comments to the attention of my noble Friend, who is the Minister responsible.

As the Government recognise that there is a deep division in Northern Ireland over housing and every other matter, surely their duty is to stop paying taxpayers' money for the maintenance of religious apartheid in education. They must face up to their responsibilities some time.

The Government always face up to their responsibilities. They in no way support religious apartheid in Northern Ireland. Apartheid is the forced separation of different races or communities, but there are schools in Northern Ireland which Protestant and Roman Catholic children attend together.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will renew attempts to secure effective extradition arrangements with the Irish Republic.

The Government's views on extradition are well known to the new Government in the Republic of Ireland. We consider that extradition would be the best way of bringing to justice fugitives south of the border for the crimes they are alleged to have committed in Northern Ireland. In its absence, the extra-territorial legislation remains the best alternative. As in the past, we expect the Government of the Republic to use this legislation, which permits prosecution in one jurisdiction for an offence committed in the other.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that my question was tabled some time before his statement this afternoon about the responsibility of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs? For that I apologise. However, does not extradition depend on the definition of the term "political offence"? Should not the Government and the courts of the Irish Republic be forced to explain before international opinion how they can apply that term to murder, robbery and other such crimes?

The Government of the Republic, like any Government, must answer at the bar of world opinion. I am sure that they will note what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Have not the Criminal Jurisdiction Act and the Republic's Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act proved ineffective? Will my right hon. Friend urgently review their working and report to the House?

The cross-border jurisdiction Acts have not produced the results that we hoped. However, I remind my hon. Friend that a man is currently appearing before the courts in the Republic charged with the murder of Mr. Ross Hearst, a member of the UDR, just inside the border in County Armagh last September.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we would take the blandishments of the Government of the Republic on other matters a little more seriously if they took this matter more seriously? Is he aware that some of their actions suggest that they are not responding to the full, in particular their unwillingness to hand over some of the escaped criminals and others who are living in their country?

I note what the right hon. Gentleman says. The new Government of the Republic are in their early days of office. Let us hope that the procedures agreed between us will prove to be more effective than they sometimes seem to have been in the past.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will invite any six members of the United States Congress to spend two months in Northern Ireland with complete and untrammelled access to all persons and places.

No, but members of the United States Congress are always welcome visitors to Northern Ireland, and appropriate facilities are provided for them.

Might it not help to dispel some of the current mythology in the United States about what is happening in Northern Ireland if we extended such a formal invitation and gave absolutely free facilities to the people concerned?

I repeat that members of the United States Congress are welcome to come, and they do. We talk to them. Indeed, four members of Congress were in the Province only a fortnight ago. I cannot go along with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that they should have

"complete and untrammelled access to all persons and places"

In view of the horrific accounts circulating as to conditions in American gaols, ought not such arrangements be made on a reciprocal basis, if at all?

If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to visit American gaols, I have no doubt that the United States will offer him all the necessary facilities to do so.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 July.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the Government will today suffer a most humiliating defeat that will clearly indicate the total rejection of their economic policies? Does the right hon. Lady realise that if she will not start to listen to what the British people are saying and change the policies that have caused much of the social unrest that we have witnessed in the last few weeks, she should step aside and allow someone else to lead the country—someone committed to rebuilding our society rather than to its continuous destruction?

It is not unknown for by-elections in mid-term to cause problems for most Governments.

Will the right hon. Lady speak today to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland about the proposed closure of British Enkalon in Antrim, which will throw another 1,100 people out of work? Will not the right hon. Lady relax her inflexibility and give a grant to that factory?

1 am aware of the closure of British Enkalon, and the news was disappointing to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Generous arrangements were offered to British Enkalon to share the losses, but they were not taken up. Therefore, my right hon. Friend will do everything than he can to attract further industry to that area, including the building of new advance factories.

As it is better for young people to lay bricks than to throw them, what hope can the Prime Minister offer to the 320,000 school leavers who are now on the dole and to the 100,000 school leavers who will he joining them next week?

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the pledges given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment and myself at Question Time and during the last debate on this subject. We shall ensure that school leavers who have not got a job by Christmas are offered a place on the youth opportunities programme, and we shall increase that programme by a sufficient amount to ensure that that guarantee is met.

Go and tell them that in Brixton.

Is not the problem one of long-term employment rather than one of job opportunities? Is it not a fact that the Manpower Services Commission has pointed out that two-thirds of young people under the age of 18 will be unemployed by 1983 unless the right hon. Lady and her Government change their policies?

If the right hon. Gentleman had read his former leader's speeches, he would know that we shall improve the prospects for employment in Britain only if we keep labour costs down, below those of our competitors.

Even in advance of this afternoon's debate, may I ask the Prime Minister whether she is aware that yesterday I met a number of police officers in Liverpool who are doing their best—amidst some aggression and hostility—to restore good relations with the ethnic minority communities? Is she further aware that their efforts, and those of many others, will be hopelessly undermined by the type of police raid tactics seen yesterday in Brixton?

The right hon. Gentleman is unwise to make a judgment about what happened in Brixton yesterday before he can know the facts. My right hon. Friend, having had a report from those who have been to Brixton this morning, will doubtless comment about it in his speech. As regards Liverpool, I saw the strenuous efforts that the police are making to restore good relations with the community. I believe that they are succeeding. We should support the police in those efforts and encourage them in every way.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 July.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Will my right hon. Friend find time today to deplore the attitude of the "simply divine and holier than thou party" and its self-appointed leaders, Mr. Jenkins and Mrs. Williams, in seeking to lay the blame at the Government's door for many of the problems that we face? Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that these people are responsible, because Mr. Jenkins said that a permissive society was a civilised society and repealed the Riot Act and Mrs. Williams stood on the picket line at Grunwick, where we witnessed such violence and intimidation? Will my right hon. Friend assure our people that she will seek to re-establish the disciplines and aptitudes that made this country the most influential and civilised in the world?

I wholly agree that Mr. Jenkins' saying that a permissive society is a civilised society is something that most of us would totally reject. Society must have rules if it is to continue to be civilised. Those rules must be observed and upheld by Government and by all leaders throughout the community. I also agree that the incident in which two Labour Cabinet Ministers stood on the Grunwick picket line should never, never be forgotten.

As the Prime Minister has recognised—somewhat belatedly—the North-South divide internationally, as described in the Brandt report, when will she recognise the North-South divide in this country? Does she realise that the gap continues to grow and that the unemployment figures in the five counties of the Northern region continue to be the highest in the country? Given what has happened recently in this country, will she not try the patience of the Northern people too far?

That is exactly why we have a regional aid programme and why a number of us make strenuous efforts to try to secure major overseas contracts, some of which are of great benefit to the people of the North-East and of Scotland. As regards the implication in that question, I should point out that the aid given to Liverpool and the Liverpool area last year under the Industry Act was nearly twice the amount given durng the last year of the Labour Government.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the vast majority of people in Britain strongly support the firm line taken with rioters and looters? However, will she consult her Cabinet colleagues to see what can be done to encourage greater public participation in the organisation of youth activities of every kind? Does she believe that this can greatly help to keep young people busily occupied—

What about work?

during the summer months in worthwhile activities?

I agree that participation is needed from all groups in society to try to find things for our young people to do, to find extra jobs and to find things to occupy their spare time. Such things can never be solved by a Government alone. They must be solved by leadership at all levels, including the voluntary societies.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that the people of Warrington will speak—[Interruption.]—for England—

What about the Scots? What about the Welsh?

Order. We must hear the right hon. Gentleman's question.

Is the right hon. Lady aware that while she is making cheap jibes at a former distinguished Home Secretary—

The right hon. Gentleman is trying to pinch his job.

the people of this country are waiting for her to demonstrate from the Dispatch Box the breadth of vision, understanding and sympathy that they expect from a Prime Minister when faced by the social tensions that we have seen in the past fortnight? Is the right hon. Lady aware that throughout the past fortnight she has been supported by the Social Democrats in her bid to uphold law and order, but that she will be condemned by us and the people of this country unless she demonstrates a similar capacity to concentrate on the economic, unemployment and social problems of our inner cities?

The right hon. Gentleman said that I made cheap jibes at a former Home Secretary. I quoted a former Home Secretary. If that is a cheap jibe, it is a jibe from Mr. Jenkins' mouth. A Government must uphold law and order and expect to be supported by the vast and overwhelming majority of the people in this country. I believe that we are supported by them.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 16 July.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that as long ago as November 1976 influential observers predicted that there would be 2·5 million unemployed by 1981? As that prediction was made by the Labour Party's finance and economic affairs committee, will my right hon. Friend use her good influence to obtain another debate in the House on unemployment so that we may have an opportunity to find out why—if the Labour Party's policies had been pursued—we would have had 2·5 million unemployed by today?

I know the prediction to which my hon. Friend referred. Indeed, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment referred to it in our last debate on employment prospects. The Labour Government also knew that there was considerable overmanning in Britain and that it would have to be dealt with. They knew that our industry was not competitive, and that until it became so we would not get the lion's share of the jobs. They also knew something that has now come to pass, namely, that the size of the labour force would increase because there were comparatively few people of retirement age while, for three years, a large number of young people would join the labour force. Even if there had not been a world recession, we should have had to find about 1 million extra jobs. That is a big task, which the Government are setting about.

May I say that I support the right hon. Lady when she talks about law and order? However, from my experience of my constituency may I point out that the police should never be used as an alibi for her failures and those of her Government.

The police are never used as such an alibi. It is monstrous and disgraceful that the right hon.

I support the police and law and order and I have seen them at work in my constituency. However, is not the right hon. Lady aware that public confidence is involved and that public confidence will not be gained when we have a Government who have given the country unemployment, who destroy our industry and who show a total disregard for the unity of the nation?

If there was a quick answer to unemployment, why did the right hon. Gentleman's Government have 1·6 million unemployed and why were they unable to do much about it?

And if there was no quick answer to unemployment, why did the right hon. Lady and her party promise to give it on 3 May 1979?

I did not promise a quick answer. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] In every one of my replies I give the only answer that there is to unemployment, and which is always rejected by the Opposition. The only answer there is to unemployment is to have labour costs below those of our competitors and to produce goods that the right hon. Gentleman's constituents will buy and that we can sell overseas. Until that is understood, we shall not have better job prospects. I ask even the right hon. Gentleman to recognise that there is a connection between pay and jobs—the bigger the pay increases, the bigger the unemployment.