asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the pupil to teacher ratio in primary schools in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the ratio in 1978.

The ratio was 21·7 to 1 in January 1981 compared with 22·6 to 1 in January 1978.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there has been satisfactory improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio in recent years in Welsh primary schools? Is the present figure the best ever?

The figure is the best ever. Most hon. Members will agree that teachers constitute the most important resource in education and that the figure is altogether satisfactory.

Does the Minister concur with the view expressed by the Secretary of State for Education and Science? How many teachers in Wales does he intend to sack?

Every hon. Member should be concerned about effective teaching in our schools.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total of housing starts by Welsh local authorities, by housing associations in Wales and for each Welsh housing authority in the latest quarter.

In the quarter ending 30 September 1981, 210 local authority dwellings and 260 housing association dwellings were started in Wales. The distribution by districts will be circulated in the Official Report.

Will the Minister confirm that those figures represent an all-time low, at least in post-war Britain? Does the Welsh Office make any serious attempt to ascertain housing needs in Wales? Is it aware of the misery caused to many families by mounting waiting lists and that, because of high unemployment, many of those who might have expected to buy in the private sector cannot, and have to fall back on the public sector? What will the Welsh Office do to solve the problem?

If I were the hon. Gentleman, I should be wary of putting too much blame on the Government. Housing starts have been falling for several years and were more than halved during the last Administration's period of office. The rate of reduction has been greater than that of housing allocations. This year there is likely to be an underspend by the housing authorities, and we have increased housing allocations for next year.

Will my hon. Friend remind the House about the increase that was announced by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State towards the end of last year?

Next year, spending by local authorities will rise from £97·8 million to £115·6 million. The allocation to the Housing Corporation for next year will be increased from £30·4 million to £39 million.

Does the Minister appreciate that he has succeeded in wrapping up in parliamentary jargon the fact that local authority housing starts in Wales are now running at about 1,000 a year, which is the lowest figure since the war? Surely that cannot give satisfaction to anyone who claims or pretends to be concerned about the 25,000 people on council house waiting lists in Wales.

I accept that the level of starts is disappointing. However, that cannot be blamed entirely on the Government, because there is likely to be an underspend of about £20 million this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of young persons left secondary schools in Wales in 1980 with no formal certification; and whether he is satisfied with the level of achievement.

The proportion is 25·1 per cent., based on provisional analysis of the sample survey of 1980 leavers. We are concerned that schools should improve their performance, especially in the education of children of less than average academic ability.

Will the Minister confirm that the comparable figure for England is 12 per cent. and that that invidious comparison should cause the Welsh Office immediately to institute a full inquiry into the discrepancy, taking into account the views of the teaching profession and all those who are concerned about the education of their children in Wales?

I confirm that the comparable figure for England is about 12 per cent. However, the hon. Gentleman will know that CSE and O-level examinations were designed for the 60 per cent. of pupils considered to be of higher academic ability. He will also know that for a long time many hon. Members, including myself, have expressed grave concern about the matter. We have had many developments in the past few years, including the Mold conference. I am confident that local education authorities and schools are giving careful consideration to the advice, guidance and information offered by recent Government publications or by Her Majesty's inspector and in APU survey reports. I am sure that they will also do so in the forthcoming Cockcroft report.

Is the Minister aware that between September 1980 and September 1981 over 900 fewer lecturers and teachers were engaged in Wales? Would it not have been better to retain their services to improve educational standards?

The hon. Gentleman has completely ignored the significance and importance of falling rolls. He will know that, whatever Government were in power, the number of teachers employed would have decreased. If the hon. Gentleman had listened carefully to the answer to question No. 1, he would have known that the pupil-teacher ratio is at a record level.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by how many and by what percentage the total unemployed has risen in Wales since May 1979.

At 10 December 1981 the seasonally adjusted level of unemployment was 158,700, an increase of 77,300, or 95 per cent., over the corresponding level at May 1979.

With the certainty that unemployment totals in the United Kingdom will go steeply beyond 3 million, which will have serious consequences for Wales this year, does the Secretary of State believe that the Nissan car plant will be located in Wales? Does the right hon. Gentleman know that, to those unemployed in Wales, his approach to unemployment appears to be laggardly and unconvincing?

I can give no information about the location of the Nissan car plant, because that is a decision for the company. The company has not told the Government whether it will go ahead with the project, nor has it stated a preference. As to the suggestion that we have a laggardly approach, we are in the middle of by far the greatest programme of site development and factory building ever undertaken in Wales. Factory allocations, the space occupied and the number of jobs provided all reached record levels during the past year.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the complete failure of the Welsh Office to supply jobs to replace the 2,000 being lost in the Dinorwic pump storage scheme in Gwynedd? Is he further aware of the concern expressed by Gwynedd county council last week about the danger to the North Wales railway line from the threatened rundown of Sealink at Holyhead? Will he consider those matters and meet the county council as a matter of urgency?

I cannot accept that the Government are in a position to supply jobs in the way suggested by the hon. Member, but I have agreed to meet Gwynedd county council and local authority representatives to discuss the problems faced in Gwynedd. Nor do I accept the hon. Gentleman's comment about the rundown of Holyhead. If the B and I Line is to operate out of that port that will bring many helpful opportunities in the future.

How many of today's visibly unemployed were yesterday's hidden unemployed in the shape of appalling productivity figures in Britain?

Undoubtedly there have been striking improvements in productivity. One has only to consider the performance of the great steel plants at Llanwern and Port Talbot, with the manning levels there and in many other factories, to realise that a transformation has taken place. Those factories have become enormously more competitive, which gives a real opportunity for economic recovery.

Is the Secretary of State aware that one response to unemployment in the Heads of the Valleys is to set up a pilot project to interrogate the unemployed about their availability for work, and that this is causing great resentment? Has the Secretary of State seen the questionaire put out under the pilot project, which asks for the personal and domestic circumstances of every unemployed individual, behind which is the threat that unemployment benefit will be withdrawn? Does the form have any statutory basis? If not, will the Secretary of State suggest that no individual should complete it?

The form is not issued by my Department and I am not responsible for it. However. the hon. Gentleman must know that it is helpful for us to have as much information as possible about the individuals concerned.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the reason for Nissan or any other major foreign investor coming to Wales is that it can sell its products from Wales throughout the EEC? Does he further agree that such vast inward investment is gravely endangered by Opposition threats, which fortunately everyone now realise will never be carried out?

I agree with my hon. Friend that it would be a disaster for Wales if it was believed that Britain was leaving the EEC. The massive inward investment that we have attracted, such as Mitel, which will provide about 2,000 jobs, would be lost to Wales.

The Secretary of State referred to the efforts being made by the workers at the Port Talbot and Llanwern steelworks. Can he assure the House that the deplorable unemployment figures, for which the Government are responsible and which were announced earlier this afternoon, will not be increased further by more closures in the steel industry in Wales? Will the Secretary of State tell Mr. MacGregor that we have had enough and that the Welsh steel industry has borne more than its fair share of steel closures? Does he agree that the efforts of the men at Port Talbot and Llanwern, especially during the past week, have earned them the right to exemption from further cuts?

The British Steel Corporation has paid tribute to the magnificent contribution of those who succeeded in reaching the steel plants during the bad weather or who were unable to get out of them. I join in those tributes. The improved competitiveness of those plants provides the best prospect for their future. During the past week the chairman of the British Steel Corporation has drawn attention to the consequences of events in America and to the financial position of the corporation. There is no doubt that some losses, although we do not know how much, will be suffered at Port Talbot as a result of the bad weather. However, I do not believe that that event of itself will affect the future prospects of the plants. In the long run it depends on their being competitive with other steel plants in Europe, and the plants have achieved that competitiveness in the past year.

asked the Secretary of State far Wales what is the increase in male unemployment in Gwent since May 1980 expressed in percentage and numerical terms.

At 10 December 1981 male unemployment showed an increase of 9,437, or 87·2 per cent., over the corresponding level at May 1980.

Has the Secretary of State considered that further job losses could occur if the port of Bristol's application for Government financial assistance is granted, as it would enable it further to undercut the South Wales ports? Is he aware of the statement of the Conservative leader in Bristol calling for the closure of Newport and Barry docks? Will he speak up for Welsh interests?

People in all parties speak for their local interests. However, the decision will be taken not by the leader of the Conservative council in Bristol but by the Government, who will take full and proper account of the important role of the South Wales ports.

As the Secretary of State for Employment emphasises that the appalling weather conditions will exacerbate unemployment, and as no other district in Wales, except perhaps the Secretary of State's county, has suffered more than Gwent, will the right hon. Gentleman say what money he intends to put at the disposal of local authorities to deal with the problems of unemployment resulting from the weather? Or does he still stubbornly say that many local authorities will not have a penny to deal with the ravages of the weather?

The Government have already announced that exceptional expenditure over and above the product of a penny rate will be met by the Government. Such financial provision is entirely in line with precedent and exactly in accordance with the practice followed by the previous Government in the 1978–79 crisis.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has taken any further steps regarding the commencement of a new (deep) mine at Margam since his reference to this development in the debate on employment opportunities in Wales on Monday 14 December, Official Report, column 66.

No, Sir. The next step is for the National Coal Board to complete its investment appraisal of the project.

Why does the Minister not treat the matter with the urgency that it deserves? If he is genuinely concerned to create jobs in Wales and to reduce unemployment, why does he not persuade his Cabinet colleagues to invest in the development of the Margam mine to serve the long-term interests of the Welsh mining industry and protect the coal industry in general?

The decision whether to invest in the Margam mine is not for the Cabinet but for the NCB. I have discussed the project with the chairman of the NCB. As he has said on a number of occasions, because of the depth of the mine, it is a high cost development and it is important that there should be a market for its products. However, the NCB is continuing its assessment to see whether improvements could make the project competitive and viable.

Will my right hon. Friend say whether the threat or reality of a strike in the coalfields will increase the likelihood of investment in this or any other new mine?

It was the chairman of the NCB who, on a recent visit to Wales, said that a strike would damage future investment prospects.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next expects to meet the chairmen of the area health authorities in Wales.

I hope to meet the chairmen on Friday next.

When the Minister meets the chairmen will he express the concern of health care professionals and health authorities in Wales that the differences in the structure of the health care service in Wales and in England are not properly appreciated by Ministers at the Welsh Office and by Whitley councils and that, as a result, the Whitley councils are taking decisions contrary to agreed staff and management side views? Will he increase the representation of Welsh interests on Whitley councils and provide more adequate briefing for the officials who advise management side representatives on the Whitley councils?

I am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman say that the differences between the reorganisation in Wales and in England are not fully appreciated. They are appreciated by Ministers, because we have been responsible for the differences. I have heard no complaints about the Whitley council. Welsh representation is adequate, and special arrangements are being made for Wales.

In his meetings with AHAs will the Minister discuss the pay of Health Service employees, in view of the Government's refusal to implement adequate pay levels for nurses and other health care personnel?

It is unlikely that I shall discuss the matter with AHA chairmen, as it is strictly for the Whitley council.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the reduction in the rate support grant for local authorities in Wales for the coming financial year; and if, for comparison, he will give the reduction for local authorities in England.

The aggregate Exchequer grant for Wales for 1982–83 will be 72·5 per cent., compared with the 1981–82 level of 73·4 per cent. In England aggregate Exchequer grant will be reduced from 59·1 per cent. to 56 per cent.

Will my right hon. Friend accept that that is a considerable achievement within the Cabinet in his battling for the ratepayers of Wales? Is he aware, however, that many of us are receiving representations from our constituents against the Government's decision not to put a ceiling on the rates to be paid by industry? If we are serious in our desire to create jobs, even at the expense of the domestic ratepayer, must there not be an attempt to limit rate rises to industry?

I have removed the differential between domestic rate relief in England and in Wales and transferred the sum to benefit industry and business in Wales. The £23 million involved will be in the block grant, so some local authority estimates of the consequences are misjudged. As a result, local authorities will be able to keep rate increases to industry very low, and in many cases there will be no grounds for any increase. That is the right priority at this time.

Is this not the third year in succession that the rate support grant has been reduced lay the Government, and that now, for the first time, the domestic rate relief is being halved? Will not the current rate increase for all domestic ratepayers in Wales be higher than the rate of inflation?

It is an extremely satisfactory settlement for Welsh local authorities, based on their good performance in the past year. It should enable them broadly to keep services at much the same level as before, if they can maintain pressure on costs. Rate increases for the domestic and industrial ratepayer in Wales should be significantly less than in England and a great deal less than in the past year or so. Furthermore, I have able been also to give substantial additional capital allocations to Welsh local authorities—about a 20 per cent. increase—because of their good performance in containing expenditure this year.

Does the Secretary of State recall that at one time the 36 per cent. domestic rate relief was justified by the impact of water rates in Wales and the need to keep them down? As the domestic ratepayer is now losing the benefit of that, and as the partial equalisation scheme is being abandoned, what will the right hon. Gentleman do to lower water rates in Wales?

Both the rate poundages and the actual rates paid by Welsh ratepayers have been significantly lower than in England, so it is hard to justify higher domestic rate relief in Wales. Furthermore, the Welsh water authority's charges are by no means the highest; they are somewhat in the middle of the table.

Will my right hon. Friend clarify his statement about the special emergency provisions over and above a penny rate? Will he confirm or deny the interpretation of the Welsh counties committee that the inclusive rate product relates not to a rate of 1p, but to one of 2½p?

The Government have announced that a 75 per cent. grant will be paid on net additional expenditure in excess of the product of a penny, grant-inclusive rate. Some local authorities have expressed surprise that the payment will be calculated on a penny rate including grant. However, that practice has been followed in the past. There can be no reason for surprise, as the position was made clear in a statement to local authorities issued in 1980—

The current position is the worst since 1947.

As doubts have been expressed, I must make it clear that there is no question of the special grants to local authorities faced with weather emergencies counting against the rate support grant cash limit.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Because the Secretary of State wishes to repair his own glaring omission in not making a statement, the whole issue is being dragged in—

Order. If we reach question No. 14 before 3.10 pm, which I believe we shall, I shall allow supplementary questions to range widely.

rose—

Order. The hon. Gentleman did not raise a point of order. He passed an observation. It was in no way a point of order on which I could rule. He is now wasting the time of the House.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order. If we do not reach question No. 14, the hon. Gentleman can take the credit for that.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Question No. 14 deals solely with farmers. My people, who are not farmers, although sympathetic to them, also want—

Order. The hon. Gentleman did not listen. I said that, in the interests of the House, I would allow questions to range widely.

Where is he?

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is now in a position to give a substantive reply to the memorandum sent to him in March 1981 by Gwynedd county council on the question of the effects of holiday homes on the county, and with proposals to help to alleviate associated problems; and if he will make a statement.

We hope to be able to reply to the Gwynedd county council memorandum very shortly.

With the problem of arson at second homes in Gwynedd, is it not a disgrace that 10 months have passed without a reply from the Welsh Office? What is the Minister's explanation for that waste of time and loss of opportunity?

The Government's consideration of the issues has taken longer than expected. However, the hon. Gentleman will know from his meeting with me and the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas) on 18 November that many of the issues are complex and difficult. The arsonists should know that the Government will not be pressurised into any ill-considered action by irresponsible and criminal acts.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that second homes are not considered a serious problem by the people of Wales? Is it not a problem caused by arsonists, from which Plaid Cymru attempts to make squalid mileage for itself?

My hon. Friend is right to say that only a very small proportion of the housing stock consists of second homes. He is also right to point out that the representations on that issue have largely come from Plaid Cymru.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many schemes for the purchase by tenants of housing association properties have been completed by the Housing Corporation for Wales since the right to buy came into force.

Information about such sales is not available. The Housing Corporation does not make schemes for the sale of housing association properties to tenants.

Is my hon. Friend aware that certain co-ownership societies in my constituency are finding considerable difficulty in effecting total ownership of their properties? Will he investigate that matter?

Of the 31 schemes of co-ownership, 25 have been approved in principle for full development into ownership. I recollect that an association in my hon. Friend's constituency had certain problems, but I thought that we had managed to solve them. I shall be happy to investigate the matter.

Order. I remind the House that I said that I would allow supplementary questions on question No. 14 to range wider than the terms on the Order Paper.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is considering to alleviate the problems of Welsh farmers following the recent severe weather conditions.

Recent heavy snow and exceptional weather conditions have caused disruption to normal life in many parts of Wales. Although the position is gradually returning to normal, conditions are still extremely difficult in many places. My agriculture department and its divisional offices have co-operated with the farming unions to do all they can to deal with calls for assistance.

That reply is very nice, and I join my right hon. Friend in everything that he says, but it does not answer the question. What help does he intend to give in this dire emergency? Does he agree that, although farmers must take the rough with the smooth, the present bad weather constitutes an emergency? Is it not the worst weather in living memory, with temperatures 20 deg. Centigrade lower than in 1947? Surely that merits special treatment and compensation.

I do not in any way underestimate the scale of the problems faced by farmers in many parts of Wales. I have seen them for myself. I have discussed the matter in great detail with Sir Richard Butler and representatives of the farmers unions. They agree that the first priority to deal with the emergency is to gain access to the farms and assist in every practical way. Sir Richard shares my belief that we are not yet in a position to assess accurately the consequences to the farmers and reach correct decisions about the way to deal with the emergency.

Is the Secretary of State aware that he is treating both the House and the people shabbily by not making a full statement on the most severe winter weather conditions that the people of south and mid-Wales have ever known? Government policies, with their implications for cash limits for the public industries producing electricity, gas and coal, have led to difficulties. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the financial constraints imposed on local authorities have resulted in severe problems for the elderly, who are living in intolerable conditions without water or electricity? Will he take emergency action as soon as possible to alleviate those problems?

I note that neither the hon. Gentleman nor his colleagues took the trouble to come to the House to table a question—

In the recess?

The hon. Gentleman did not table a question. My hon. Friend—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order, If the hon. Gentleman raises a point of order, it will prevent me from calling another hon. Member.

I wish to correct something that the Secretary of State said.

Order. That cannot be a point of order.

My hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Sir R. Gower) took the trouble to come to the House and table a question. I am sorry that he cannot be here today to ask his question as he is ill in bed.

We are all aware that last week's snow storm was the worst since 1947. When the Secretary of State has made a full assessment, will he make a statement on whether he is willing to give financial aid to those in business in Wales, especially to those engaged in agriculture?

It would not be sensible to make a statement about financial assistance when we are not yet able to assess the financial consequences. That is a view that the president of the National Farmers Union shares with me. He telephoned me from West Wales to express gratitude to the Welsh Office and others for the assistance that has been given and confirmed that it was too early to make an assessment. As the situation unfolds I shall consider whether a statement will be appropriate at some stage. I shall consult my colleagues.

rose—

Order. I propose to allow another minute on this question despite the timings on the Order Paper.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that we join him in thanking all the official and unofficial bodies that helped during the exceptional weather? In view of what the right hon. Gentleman has heard this afternoon, may I urge him to make a full statement later this week so that hon. Members and the people of Wales may be satisfied about what has been done? There is no point in confirming what the Government said in 1980 or what the previous Government did in 1978. Very few people in Wales have witnessed before the kind of weather that has been seen in the past fortnight. We deserve and need a far better response than we have had from the right hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman says that he deserves a far better response. Responsibility for dealing with the emergency in the first instance fell primarily on the local authorities. Broadly, I think that they did a good job, although each one tackled the problem in different ways. I have seen the work that has been done. I think that in general the response was good. It is too early to make a detailed assessment of the exact decisions that were taken.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the policy of the Commissioners towards the disposal of redundant churches.

The commissioners' general policy towards the disposal of redundant churches is governed by the Pastoral Measure 1968, which provides for the future of a redundant church to be settled by a suitable alternative use, preservation by the redundant churches fund or demolition. I am, however, writing to my hon. Friend to give him more details of the commissioners' policy in this matter.

I thank my hon. Friend for that full and helpful answer. Is he satisfied with the publicity that is afforded to the availability of redundant churches?

Publicity is an issue for individual dioceses. Properties vary enormously, but they are normally advertised. A list of such available properties is kept by the commissioners and it can be obtained by members of the public on request. Since 1969 over 50 per cent. of churches that have been declared redundant have been put to suitable alternative use.

My hon. Friend will be aware that there are occasions when there are clashes of interest between the spiritual and the material when considering the future use of redundant churches. Will he assure the House that where there is such a clash, spiritual considerations will always be in the ascendent?

It can normally be assumed that the Church Commissioners will give due weight to spiritual considerations. The most favoured alternative use would be that of another Christian denomination.

When a church is taken over—it happened in my constituency recently—what happens to the gravestones and the fabric of the church if it has any architectural merit?

Those, too, are matters for each diocese. However, a memorandum of guidance has been issued by the Church Commissioners on such matters. I am answering, by written answer, a number of questions tabled by the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) on precisely these matters. My answer goes into some considerable detail. I invite my hon. Friend to read Hansard tomorrow.

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, whether the House of Commons Commission is satisfied with the state of industrial relations in the House of Commons.

The Commission and the trade unions are not always in total agreement, but there are no current difficulties which cannot ultimately be resolved.

Why was a retired civil servant appointed as House of Commons staff inspector even before the terms of reference of the appointment were announced to the trade unions representing the staff of the House? Has there not been a deplorable lack of industrial democracy in the place, which is supposed to be the mother of democracy?

The Commission must be left to appoint its own staff. It has taken the step of ensuring that the management will consult the trade unions on the way in which the inspector will carry out his duties and the scope of them.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that none of us wants to see avoidable tensions develop in industrial relations in the House? However, does he recognise that there seem to be excessive delays in negotiations with the trade unions that represent the servants of the House? There has been less than adequate consultation on the changes that have taken place in the administration of industrial relations within Parliament. Surely this should concern all hon. Members as we have not extended to the servants of the House the same range of rights as exist for workers generally.

The Commission has done its best to meet the trade unions' requirements. The Commission alone is not responsible for the delay. There was a meeting between the Commission and representatives of the trade unions, and it took some time before replies were received. Those matters are now being considered. One of the reasons for the delay in considering the fundamental part of the trade unions' difference is a grading scheme. The company that made the report tended to give more benefits to the higher grades of the staff in the Commons service than to the lower grades. We wanted to examine that more carefully.

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what fees are payable to specialist advisers appointed by Select Committees.

Specialist advisers are paid on a per diem fee basis—I am in difficulty as I do not have my glasses.

Would my right hon. Friend like to borrow mine?

Thank you. They are paid on a per diem fee basis for work done. Three rates are in use, based on the scales for university posts. They are in line with payments made for similar work done for Government Departments. The current daily rates are £50 to £70 a day for professors, £40 to £50 a day for senior lecturers and readers, and £22 to £42 for lecturers.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his efforts to answer my question. Would he consider applying an overall strict cash limit to avoid a proliferation of specialist advisers?

There is a limit to the amount of money that can be spent on specialist services.

In its next deliberations, will the Commission consider getting away from the assumption that all specialist advisers are academics, such as professors? Is he aware that some of the best specialists and advisers serving on committees have nothing to do with universities, and are the better for that?

That appeals to me very much. When I was Minister for Overseas Development I saw craftsmen playing a part in rendering specialist services. Therefore, I am sympathetic towards that question.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what representations he has received within the last year on the funding of opera and ballet.

I have had discussions about funding with the chairmen and officers of the Royal Opera House and the English National Opera. I have also had many informal talks with people in the opera and ballet world.

May I say that it is not only the distinguished intake of 1945 that has had to take to wearing spectacles? As London is one of the musical centres of the world, and as opera and ballet are a major draw to tourists, following the substantial increase in real terms of the grant to the Arts Council—on which many of us signed a motion congratulating my right hon. Friend—will my right hon. Friend encourage the Arts Council to see that opera and ballet in London receive at least a proportionate share of that increase?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. I assure him that the Arts Council proposes to devote a substantial portion of its resources to that area. It will be at least as good as the overall increase in the grant that it has received.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that national excellence and international reputation in those areas of the arts must depend on Government willingness to sustain them financially with whatever resources are necessary to do the job properly? May I temper the right hon. Gentleman's happiness about the Arts Council grant by reminding him that, while inflation is running at 11·7 per cent. or 11·9 per cent., the Arts Council's grant increase was only 7·5 per cent.?

In real terms.

The cash grant revenue increase for next year for the Arts Council is about 9 per cent.—from £77½ million to £84½ million. Everyone in the arts world to whom I have spoken thinks that it has done well. I have had innumerable expressions of appreciation.

Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that there is considerable concern about the allocation of Arts Council funds both in regard to the d'Oyly Carte Opera Company and generally, as evidenced by the representations by my constituent, Mr. Gower of Sawbridgeworth, in regard to which my right hon. Friend and I are in correspondence? Will my right hon. Friend respond to my request to him to deal with the constitutional position of the accountability and responsibility of the Arts Council in this context, bearing in mind the classic definition of power without responsibility being the prerogative of the harlot through the ages?

I well recall Mr. Gower's letter and my right hon. and learned Friend's letter to me. I am studying the matter with considerable care. However, in general terms I must say that that position has been accepted since the foundation of the Arts Council. In general, it works according to the arm's length principle that the Minister of the day does not interfere with the detailed allocation of the grant.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will take steps to provide additional funding to arts in the Northern region.

Central Government support for the arts is provided mainly through the Arts Council. Council grants to the regional arts associations, including Northern Arts, have been increased for the forthcoming year in recognition of their special needs.

Is the Minister aware that, because of inflation, the increase that the Northern region has received from the Arts Council means that the North is running to stand still? I do not wish to reduce its share, but why will Scotland receive £10,200,000 while the Northern region, with three-fifths of Scotland's population, will receive only £1,500,000? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that there is great enthusiasm for the arts in the Northern region? Will he appoint someone from the North to serve on the Arts Council—a national body—to demonstrate that he has a desire to help, particularly as no one from the Northern region has ever served on the Arts Council?

The hon. Gentleman makes a persuasive case on the latter point. With regard to his first point, the Scottish Arts Council grant is based on a formula basis that was laid down a long time ago. Regional arts and all the associations are receiving a grant that is well above the rate of inflation and is higher than that received by most other clients of the Arts Council. I am surprised by what the hon. Gentleman says. I have checked the facts carefully. Northern Arts received an increase of over 10 per cent. to 12 percent.

When the Minister is looking at disparities in regional grants, will he look at the Eastern region, which, by common consent, has done worse than anywhere else? Does he accept that seniority of establishment is a worse criterion than needs?

I accept that point. I am especially concerned about the Eastern Arts Association. I wrote to the hon. Gentleman yesterday assuring him that the concern that he felt over travel subsidies in the area was ill founded.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, despite the criticisms from the Opposition Benches, the overall level of Government funding for the arts and heritage is a matter for congratulation?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. That generally seems to be the view outside the House.

Does the Minister agree that trying to attract industry and commerce to a region of flourishing artistic and cultural life is important? Will he congratulate Northern Arts on its efforts in that direction, but take note of the fact that, irrespective of the moneys granted by the Government, the squeeze that the Government are placing on local authorities is making it difficult for the money to be maintained, let alone increased?

I visited Northern Arts some months ago. I congratulate it on what it does in the Northern region. I recognise that there is considerable enthusiasm for the arts in that region and elsewhere. As I said earlier, Northern Arts is receiving a grant that is well above the rate of inflation. That is not true of many bodies in the country at present.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if the national heritage memorial fund is available for use by British Railways for structures in its ownership and in current use; and if he will make a statement.

I doubt whether this would be an appropriate use of the national heritage fund's money, but, as my hon. Friend knows, a railway preservation society could be eligible for such assistance.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of the alleged plight of the architecturally outstanding Ribblehead viaduct on the Settle to Carlisle line, which was the subject of an Adjournment debate initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton (Mr. Watson) and which prompted even the Chief Whip to take part? Will my right hon. Friend look at that debate and the comments of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport? Having done so, will he reconsider his answer and, if he thinks it appropriate, contact his ministerial colleague and let me or him know whether money from the fund will be available for that architecturally important structure?

In view of what my hon. Friend says, I shall study what must have been an interesting and unusual debate. I shall write to him as soon as I have had the opportunity to study it.

With trepidation, may I correct the Minister? In Committee on the National Heritage Bill we purposely threw the net wide. May I suggest that the Minister is a little peremptory in saying that railway mementos, such as the one mentioned by the hon. Member for Christchurch and Lymington (Mr. Adley), do not come within the purview of the Act?

When the hon. Gentleman studies what I have said, he will find that I did not say that. I said that I doubted whether it would be an appropriate use of the fund to make it available for use by British Rail. However, I shall read the debate.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the historic buildings councils give money for the preservation of such structures from time to time? Therefore, will he try to ensure that the memorial fund operates similarly?

I take note of the views expressed on both sides of the House. I shall look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will safeguard the future of the National Theatre in the event of a withdrawal of financial support by the Greater London Council.

I very much hope that this situation will not arise. Clearly the National Theatre must be put in a position to continue its work.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Greater London Council's proposals for the withdrawal of financial support from all centres of excellence represents the silly, daft Socialist dogma that rules in County Hall? Is he aware that nearly 5 million visitors have attended the National Theatre since it opened? Is that not evidence of the widespread support that the theatre receives from all walks of life?

Yes, I think that there is clear evidence in the figures that my hon. Friend gives of the widespread support for and interest in the National Theatre by people from all parts of England, and in particular, of course, from London. The Arts Council and the GLC are continuing discussions. I very much hope that the GLC will maintain its present funding arrangements in the coming financial year.

Will the Minister repudiate words such as "silly, daft Socialist dogma" from his side of the House so that he may not be accused of silly, daft Conservative dogma in sacking the deputy chairman of the Arts Council, Mr. Richard Hoggart?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that I was guilty of neither silliness nor dogma on that occasion. All that happened was that a person who would otherwise have served for 10 years on the Arts Council—an almost unprecedented stint—will not do so. I believe that it is a privilege to serve on the Arts Council and that occasionally it is right to make some changes.

In view of the new interest in the performing arts shown by the Leader of the Opposition, will my right hon. Friend ask him to have a word with Mr. Tony Banks to ensure that he does not do irreparable damage to this great national institution?

I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition can look after himself.

My right hon. Friend may be able to look after himself, but I intend to help him. Anyone who has the privilege of knowing the Leader of the Opposition knows that that kind of silly, snide comment is nonsensical rubbish. However, I rose to make a quieter, more temperate comment.

I very much hope that both the hon. Gentleman and the Leader of the Opposition will use their influence with the Socialist majority on the GLC to ensure that such a state of affairs does not arise.