asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available.

Net recurrent expenditure per pupil in primary schools in Wales was £571 in 1980–81. This figure excludes expenditure on school meals, milk and transport.

Is that the highest amount ever spent in money and in real terms?

The expenditure is broadly comparable to the level reached in the previous year. It is significantly higher than in 1978–79. Expenditure plans envisage a rising level of expenditure per pupil in Welsh schools. However, we must bear in mind that there are falling school rolls and diseconomies of scale. Despite that trend, the standards in our primary schools are very high.

Rather than listen to the hon. Member for Leek (Mr. Knox), who always asks the same question, will the Minister direct his attention to what is in the inspectorate's report on the effects of falling rolls and the diseconomies of scale caused by this trend in both rural and urban areas? Will he ensure that the resources are substantially increased, particularly for books and other forms of audio-visual equipment for primary schools?

I shall continue to answer my hon. Friend's questions. If they bring answers that are unpalatable to the hon. Gentleman, that is not my fault. The diseconomies of scale are a problem. Our plans for 1982–83 will allow expenditure on books and equipment in Welsh schools to be restored to 1978–79 levels.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, following the recent meeting of the Consultative Council on Local Government Finance, Wales, what changes he requires in local authority spending patterns in Wales during the current financial year; and if he will make a statement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the likely spending above his Department's ceiling by local authorities in 1982–83; and if he will make a statement.

Local authority returns of expenditure and rates show a total budgeted expenditure excess for the 1982–83 financial year of £57 million over the settlement provision.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the chaos that is caused to local authority budgets by having to rethink a year's budget when the year is only a month or six weeks old? In assessing the overspend, can he give an assurance that none of the additional expenditure on road programmes arising from the phenomenal snow this winter, which has hung over into the current financial year, will be taken into account when penalising counties for the expenditure levels that they are now incurring?

The local authorities had adequate warning that if their expenditure went above the figures that we had laid down. I would have to ask them to re-examine it and that I might have to withhold. They had plenty of warning. Indeed, the Welsh counties made substantial provision in their budgets, on the assumption that there would be withholding.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the proposals for close ending and holdback for Welsh authorities in the paper produced by the Welsh Office for the consultative committee are completely at variance with the statement made to the Standing Committee that considered the Local Government Finance (No. 2) Bill when this issue was discussed? Is not the Welsh Office now attempting to introduce in Wales a scheme which has not been introduced in England? Are not Welsh authorities being further penalised as a result?

The hon. Gentleman should not confuse close ending and withholding. The undertakings given in Committee applied only to England.

Why did the Minister not say so?

When my hon. Friend made that statement, he referred specifically to England. The position is wholly different in Wales. We have not had to go down this route before because of the co-operation of the Welsh local authorities. I hope that Welsh local authorities will continue to co-operate so that I shall not have to withhold. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman is arguing that I should treat Welsh local authorities in exactly the same way as English authorities.

What contingency arrangements will the Government make to assist local authorities to meet the increased cost of wage applications following the abrogation of the so-called Luxembourg compromise by our Common Market partners? Will that not increase the cost of food to the people of Wales by £1·50p a week for an average family? Will the right hon. Gentleman also consider the effect that this will have on the competitiveness——

Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked several questions.

The anticipated increase in the cost of living arising from the agricultural settlement is less than ¼ per cent. in a full year, which will be rather less than that which we used to suffer every month under the Labour Government. Welsh local authorities have made a provision in their budgets that appears to be excessive when considered against the actual outturn of wages and costs.

Welsh local authorities were faced with great problems due to savage and intense weather conditions during the winter. Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the help that his Department is giving under the present formula is satisfactory in all the circumstances?

I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members will want to welcome back my hon. Friend the Member for Barry (Sir R. Gower) after his illness. My hon. Friend knows that we made special provision at the time to meet the emergency. In making our assessment of any excess expenditure for 1981–82, that provision will be excluded.

The Opposition are glad to see the hon. Member for Barry (Sir R. Gower) back in his place, looking both fitter and slimmer as a consequence of his absence. So-called overspending in England was about 7·7 per cent., and the Minister for Housing and Construction gave an assurance in Committee that the differential holdback would be no greater than that announced in December. In Wales, according to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), there was an overspend of only 5·1 per cent. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that unless we get an assurance from him of the sort given by the Minister for Housing and Construction we shall be led to the view that the Under-Secretary of State, through his silence, mislead local authorities, the Committee and the House?

The answer is simple. English local authorities suffered a differential holdback, and no such holdback has been applied to Welsh authorities. The circumstances are completely different. When I saw the local authority representatives on Friday I told them that I would take into account whatever the outcome might be in England. I gave them an assurance that I would take careful note of the final holdback in England before taking any decision that would have an effect on Welsh local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures of the number of people unemployed in Wales, Mid-Glamorgan and Aberdare; and what percentage of the working population are unemployed in these areas.

On 15 April 1982 unemployment in Wales totalled 171,349, in Mid-Glamorgan 32,815 and in Aberdare 3,866, giving unemployment rates of 16·1 per cent., 17 per cent. and 17·8 per cent., respectively.

These are record figures for Wales. Is it not a fact that Wales has the highest regional unemployment in Great Britain? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider urgently the need to restore special development area status for the areas that lost that assistance following the Government's review? Does he realise that at the Lady Windsor Lodge pit there were over 450 applications for 15 vacancies? When will the Government create an upturn in the economy that will provide jobs for young people?

Unquestionably, these unemployment figure are too high. I am glad to say that they have not risen as fast as the figures for England. I am also glad to say that April was the third consecutive month when vacancies increased. Unfilled vacancies have also been increasing. April was the fourth consecutive month when unfilled vacancies increased. That is another indication that we are moving out of the worst of the recession.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that, despite the growing misgiving of the Welsh TUC, the Welsh Labour Party has reaffirmed its intention of taking Britain out of the EEC, thus threatening to kick in the groin the Welsh economic recovery, which is only now just beginning?

Yes. I noted that, by that decision over the weekend, the Welsh Labour Party voted for increased unemployment in Wales.

Is the Secretary of State aware—he is often completely uninformed about the steel industry in Wales—that, to add to the problems of unemployment, there is a serious threat to Panteg steelworks, at which about 700 men are employed? What talks has the right hon. Gentleman had with the chairman of the British Steel Corporation? Will he draw to the chairman's attention the fact that a firm assurance was given to the Select Committee that there would be no cutback and no closure at Panteg? The apparent threat is causing great anxiety. Will the right hon. Gentleman make a statement about the matter?

The corporate plan is currently under review. With other Ministers, I shall shortly be meeting the chairman again to consider it. No assurance was given that there would be no further redundancies in the steel industry at individual plants or as a whole. The chairman has repeatedly made it clear that it will be necessary to continue to improve competitiveness in the way that it has been so strikingly improved over the past year or two.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that when my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) refers to Panteg, he refers to an absolute commitment that was given in 1980 by the previous chairman of the BSC to maintain Panteg? When he discusses the new corporate plan with the chairman, I hope that he will ensure that Panteg is not sold down the river. If that were to happen, 700 jobs would be lost. Despite his fine words earlier, 2,030 redundancies have taken place in Wales each month this year. Will he admit that the sell-out at Luxembourg last week was a sell-out of essential British, and equally essential Welsh, interests?

The future of the steel industry in Wales depends on its being competitive. I have seen no immediate proposals of the kind referred to by the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) and the right hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones). However, those are matters for the chairman. I shall be discussing the corporate plan with him in the near future.

Does my right hon. Friend consider that the steady fall in the inflation rate in the United Kingdom should enhance and provide great opportunities for Welsh industrial recovery?

It is of extreme importance that inflation is continuing to fall and has fallen to 9·4 per cent. That and improved competitiveness hold out the best chance for a recovery of our industrial prospects.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the most recent month's average percentage of unemployment in the area covered by the Development Board for Rural Wales.

On 15 April 1982 the average rate of unemployment was 13·4 per cent.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that, in the review of regional aid that is now taking place, full weight will be given to the fact that the DBRW area of Wales and the HIDB area of Scotland have the same levels of unemployment, and that the HIDB area is not threatened substantially with the downgrading of status?

That factor will, of course, be taken into account. As my hon. Friend is aware, there are wide variations within the area. Indeed, unemployment in the Brecon travel-to-work area, in his constituency, is only 8·8 per cent. He also knows that this week we are to meet him and representatives of his local authorities and my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Williams) to discuss these matters. We shall take all these factors into account.

Will the Secretary of State assure us that he personally will take a stand with the Secretary of State for Industry to ensure that the interests of rural Wales are fully protected in the Cabinet and that he will not surrender on this issue?

The decisions on the review that we undertook to carry out are being dealt with collectively, and I shall be one of the Ministers who will take those decisions. I shall, of course, ensure that all the important factors for mid-Wales, and indeed for other parts of the United Kingdom, are taken properly into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what, at the latest available date, are the percentage figures for male unemployment in Swansea, West Glamorgan and Wales, respectively; and what were the comparative figures for May 1979.

On 15 April 1982 the male unemployment rate for the Swansea travel-to-work area was 19·5 per cent., for West Glamorgan 18 per cent. and for Wales 18·8 per cent. Rates for May 1979 were 8·3 per cent., 7·4 per cent. and 8·3 per cent., respectively.

That is an increase of 2½ per cent. in two years. Is the Secretary of State aware that, among the few jobs advertised in the Swansea jobcentre for unemployed steel workers and others, one was for a clown, uniform supplied, to travel and make a fool of himself around the rest of Great Britain? Does the Secretary of State realise the humilation felt in my area in such a job offer as a result of the Government's policy? When will it stop?

The hon. Gentleman is trivialising the issue. A variety of employment is offered in jobcentres. I am sure that that is what the hon. Gentleman wisher. I should have thought that, in coming to the House to discuss important issues, the hon. Gentleman would have a more serious point to make than that.

Will the Secretary of State tell us how many of the number that he gave in his original answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson) were young male unemployed? Can he estimate what youth unemployment in West Glamorgan is likely to be when the summer school term ends?

I can give no forcast about the likely future levels. Consecutive Governments have refused to make forcasts of that kind. Clearly, youth unemployment is worrying. That is why we have launched a major programme—the largest ever—to deal with the problem.

Has the Minister seen the article in British Business, based on research done by Mr. Galguly of the Department of Industry, which showed that the number of company births in Wales is one of the lowest in the United Kingdom and that the number of company deaths in Wales is one of the highest in the United Kingdom? What does he intend to do about it?

No, I have not seen the article. However, I have seen the figures that are available in the Department, and they show that the amount of factory space allocated in Wales last year was an all-time record, that in the first quarter of this year the figures are nearly double the figures for the first quarter of last year. that the number of inquiries to the small business unit was at an all-time record last year and is substantially up this year, and the number of new firms coming to Wales has been exceptionally high during the past three years.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many letters he has received from ratepayers in Newport protesting at the level of water charges; and if he will make a statement.

Eleven, including two from the hon. Member.

Does the Minister appreciate that, from the large number of petitions, there is quite an uproar in Newport over this issue, and that it is particularly understandable in view of the increase of 2,700 per cent. in those charges since 1960, with no rebate system obtaining? The issue is further compounded by the fact that Newport, the third largest town in Wales, has never had any representation on the Welsh water authority. We have now received a further smack in the eye, because Gwent has no representation on the new revamped board. Does the Minister appreciate that he and his right hon. Friend are storing up a lot of trouble for themselves?

The hon. Gentleman should know that the new authority, which has been set up by my right hon. Friend, is not intended to be directly representational. The hon. Gentleman's comparison of charges pre-1974 and thereafter is grossly misleading because, as no doubt he knows, the pre-1974 water rate was subsidised from the general rates, and the pre-1974 sewerage element of the general rate attracted rate support grant, whereas the present charges are unsubsidised and reflect the true cost of providing those services.

rose ——

Order. This is a constituency question. The key words are "in Newport".

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of that reply, I give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many unemployed persons there are at present in Wales; how many jobs are expected to be created in the next three years; and if he will make a statement.

In April 1982 unemployment in Wales totalled 171,349. It is not possible to estimate the number of jobs likely to arise in both the public and private sectors.

Does the Secretary of State recollect saying in a previous answer to me that approximately 13,000 jobs were in the pipeline? Would that not be a terrifying gap between the estimated new jobs and the number of people out of work? I remind the right hon. Gentleman that male unemployment in Flint is now edging again towards 40 per cent. Has he read recent newspaper reports that hopes of the Nissan project coming to the United Kingdom may now be fading because trade unions in Nissan are against it?

I am afraid that I have no further information to give the hon. Gentleman about the Nissan project. He is understandably persistent in asking questions about the project at every Welsh Question Time. The position is exactly the same as it was when he last asked a question on the subject.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is now disquieting evidence suggesting that the effective measures taken by the Government to combat unemployment throughout Wales are proving less effective in North-East Wales? Will he give special consideration to the problems that arise in that area as a result of steel closures?

I am not sure that I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. A number of major new projects have come into the area, as I saw when I recently went round the Deeside industrial estate. In the last week or two there has been the important announcement by Gould UK Ltd. about expansion in Wrexham. As my hon. Friend knows, the area benefits from the highest level of financial assistance and from a number of parts of the regional and special employment packages that are not available elsewhere. He also knows that the area has exceptional road communications and probably an unequalled record of good industrial relations. Therefore, the longer-term prospects should be pretty good.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the letter that the Welsh Development Agency sent to me in reply to a question that I asked him on 22 April 1982? Having replied to a question about the development of new units in Wales, can he explain why we have lost 13,000 jobs in WDA units, why we have 348 factories tenanted, 323 vacant and 137 still awaiting tenants?

It is obvious that tenants of WDA factories will be affected by general economic factors, just as tenants of factories elsewhere in the United Kingdom are affected by them. It is not surprising that, during the period, jobs have been lost in existing factories. A considerable number of WDA factories are now vacant because we have carried out the largest programme of factory building ever undertaken in the Principality, and we have succeeded in getting those factories occupied at record levels. As I said in answer to an earlier question, last year's figures were an all-time record. In the first quarter of this year the number of allocations is very nearly double what it was last year.

Why is it that the Secretary of State can tell us the number of Government factories, the area of factory space, the number of inquiries and some details of the new firms coming into the area, but cannot give the House full details of all the jobs created or in the pipeline through organisations such as the WDA and the DBRW? It is no good the Secretary of State hiding behind the argument of disproportionate cost when he can give selective figures but not the true figures. Why does he not give us the full story for Wales instead of half?

In a recent letter I gave the right hon. Gentleman the total figures and a long list of the principal factories. If we are to consider every project for which financial assistance has been given and every unit, substantial costs will be involved. The WDA informed me that answering the question from the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), to which he has just referred, and another question from the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas), took 100 man-hours.

That is democracy.

I believe that the WDA should use its time to create new jobs in Wales, not to provide unnecessary information.

How many man-hours does it take to produce the right hon. Gentleman's selective answers?

How much does it cost to produce the speeches, the drivel, that the right hon. Gentleman turns out in this bloody House?

Can the Secretary of State provide a simple——

Order. Did I hear someone swearing? [Hon. Members: "Yes."] If so, I hope that the hon. Gentleman who made the observation will stand up and withdraw it.

I most certainly withdraw it, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Secretary of State provide a simple balance sheet of the total number of jobs lost in Wales since he took office and the number that have been created through his agencies?

The right hon. and learned Gentleman knows the unemployment figures. He also knows that the jobs that will be created in the many projects that have been set up will come only after several years, as was the case when he answered such questions. I have just told him in a letter that the developments that we have carried out in the Llanwern and Port Talbot areas following the steel closures should provide up to 6,800 new jobs, 4,000 of which will be in the two travel-to-work areas. That is a significant attempt to deal with the problem.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the reply that the Secretary of State gave to me about costs and the estimate of jobs in the pipeline, may I say that two months ago the right hon. Gentleman gave me——

Order. The hon. Gentleman's argument is not with me. It is not a point of order.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now review the priority given to the A494 Mold bypass.

The main thrust of the trunk road improvement programme continues to be improvement of the strategic links, especially the A55. Good progress is being made and I hope that, when they have been substantially completed, schemes such as the Mold bypass can be quickly fitted into the programme. Preparatory work towards that end is going ahead as quickly as resources permit.

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for that encouraging reply. Is he aware that the success of the Government's road building programme in North Wales has thrown into high relief the unsuitability of the road pattern in and around Mold? May I give him advance warning that from now on I shall press for an early start on the Mold bypass, as I pressed for work on the A55?

I recognise the desirability of the scheme and the importance that my hon. Friend attaches to it. It is estimated that it will relieve the town of 50 per cent. of trunk road traffic.

Will the Minister insist that, when the bypass is built, a high proportion of the labour is locally based? May I remind him of the discontent in my constituency over the building of current bypass schemes because the local labour content is not high enough?

It is not possible to insist that every contractor uses local labour, because that would enormously increase the costs and reduce the number of roads that we can build. However, we enourage contractors to use local labour and, in the main in North Wales, they are satisfied with it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of the high incidence of spina bifida in Wales, he will draw to the attention of the medical profession and expectant mothers the tests carried out by Dr. Smithell at the Welsh national school of medicine establishing that the taking of an appropritate vitamin cocktail can prevent many cases of spina bifida.

Initial results of the research are encouraging. Further careful research is necessary to demonstrate the benefit of this form of vitamin supplementation before it can be recommended as a standard part of antenatal care.

Since it could not possibly do any harm, and since the giving of advice on the matter could do much good in minimising the tragedies in Glamorgan and Gwent, is that not a tardy reply? Surely if, as is believed, there is possibility of relieving the incidence of spina bifida in Wales, it should be the duty of the Secretary of State to make sure that the full facts are brought to the attention of the medical profession and expectant mothers?

Multi-vitamin preparations are already available on prescription, should the patient's doctor consider them desirable. However, further to that, the Medical Research Council will start a multi-centre study in the autumn, including the professorial unit of obstetrics at the Welsh national school of medicine. The Government are aware of the potential value of that treatment and we shall do everything in our powers to promote it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what effect current industrial action is having on the Health Service in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The action is causing general disruption of hospital and clinical services. It is interfering with patient care and is potentially damaging to those waiting for treatment.

If the disgraceful state of affairs continues, what effect will it have on waiting lists? What will be the likely result for Health Service employees if their pay demand is met in full?

Since the Government have been in office we have reduced waiting lists, but such action will undoubtedly lengthen them. We have increased the number of those employed by the National Health Service in Wales. We have taken on about 2,600 nurses and 3,000 additional employees in all. The problem with the 12 per cent. wage demand is that it must be reconciled with the demands for patient services. We believe that the Government's offer is realistic in relation to the demand for increased patient care and the resources that the country can afford.

Will the Minister also consider with some compassion the other side of the equation, which is that we have been paying far too little to our Health Service workers for a long time? Has he been as shocked as I have to see the average take-home pay of ancillary workers in the NHS? As we have been getting those people on the cheap, will he reconsider the offer that has been made?

The hon. Gentleman knows that nurses received increases in 1979, 1980 and 1981. They had the 22 per cent. Clegg commission increase and they have had a reduction from 40 hours a week to 37½ hours a week, which is worth 6·5 per cent. The total wage bill in the Health Service has increased by 85 per cent. during the past three years.

Does the Minister not accept that the dispute has been caused by the Government's intransigence? As a Welsh Office Minister, will the hon. Gentleman involve himself in such issues instead of taking the line adopted over the years, that negotiations with public sector workers are not a matter for the Department?

Primarily, these are matters for the Whitley council. I do not accept that hon. Gentleman's charge of Government intransigence. The Secretary of State for Social Services is well aware of the situation.

Is my hon. Friend aware that nurses and medical staff have managed to keep hospitals going during the dispute by grossly overworking themselves? As the Labour Government made only a half-hearted attempt to maintain reasonable pay levels in the National Health Service, is it not shabby of the Labour Party to give all-out backing to industrial action that is aimed direct at the patient?

I agree with practically everything that my hon. Friend has said. Of course, the Labour Party is the first to criticise any possible inadequacies in the National Health Service. We must reconcile the demand for increased patient care and services with that for increased pay. We have increased the numbers employed in the National Health Service with a view to improving services, but we cannot give such pay increases without calling for redundancies at the same time.

Does the Minister not realise that the free collective bargaining that the Conservative Party upheld at the general election, but which has now been negated by this miserly increase for Health Service workers, is destroying the morale of the service? How can Whitley councils pursue meaningful negotiations when they are restricted by the amount of money that the Government make available to meet the claims?

The Government have increased the amount of money spent on the National Health Service in Wales from £398 million in 1978–79 to £743 million in the current year. I cannot think of anything more calculated to demoralise the National Health Service than the action that is now taking place, with the apparent support of the Opposition.

Have not these moderate and responsible people been driven to desperate measures by the Government's measly offer? Last Saturday morning a man who had come to see me handed me his pay ticket showing the figures £64·22 gross and £51·40 net. How is he to meet the increased food costs resulting from the Common Market's action?

I cannot conceivably relate that point to the Common Market. However, I reiterate that we must reconcile the levels of pay in the National Health Service with the demand for increased and improved patient care.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of the nursing profession; and when he intends to meet them next.

I last met national representatives of the nursing profession in February.

Is the Minister aware that the Government are taxing the patience and professionalism of nurses? Judging from conversations that I have had with nurses at the Prince Charles hospital and at other hospitals in my area, the grievance is not so much about this year's pay increase, as about the fact that the Government have failed to devise a system of comparable pay awards to avoid industrial disputes. The Government have put the nurses in an invidious position because of the threat of strike action in the Health Service.

The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. The nurses have been offered an increase of 6·4 per cent. and are being balloted on that. The ballot closes on 28 May. We have been anxious to devise a long-term strategy for agreement with the nurses. Indeed, my hon. and learned the Friend the Minister for Health is working along those lines.

If it is necessary to reconcile levels of pay and other expenditure in the National Health Service, why is it not necessary to reconcile pay levels in the judiciary? Why does a judge need 21 per cent., while National Health Service employees need 4 per cent. and nurses 6·4 per cent? If the Minister and the Government were genuinely interested in maintaining a National Health Service and in improving patient care they would give that loyal, hard-working and devoted service a fair deal.

National Health Service employees are being offered a fair and realistic deal. As regards the Top Salaries Review Body, the right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that pay has been held below the levels judged appropriate in 1980. Therefore, the two groups are not in any way comparable.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Royal College of Nursing wants to reach an agreement with the Government on a new form of pay for nurses but that the actions of the Confederation of Health Service Employees and the National Union of Public Employees are getting in the way?

I am not sure that my hon. Friend is absolutely correct, because negotiations are still proceeding with my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health. We hope that a long-term method of settling nurses' wages will be evolved.

How is a fair deal being offered?

It is fair, because, as I have said, we must reconcile the demand for increased and better services with the demand for increased pay. Throughout our period of office we have increased the amount of money available, in real terms, to the National Health Service. I repeat that the wage bill for the National Health Service has increased by no less than 85 per cent. in the past three years. Surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman understands that the demand for improved services has also increased.

Is it not an apalling reflection on the Government's priorities that they cannot find money for a reasonable wage settlement without threatening to cut jobs and without threatening a longer waiting list for the thousands of people who are awaiting hospital services yet they can find £1,000 million at the drop of a hat to play war games in the South Atlantic?

I hope that I have not threatened redundancies. I said that redundancies were not threatened, as they were in many other industries. For example, in the private sector many people have had to take a cut instead of an increase in wages. However, we have increased the number of employees in the National Health Service. The increase proposed is worth £21 million.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on his recent discussion forum to promote a more effective use of information.

On 13 May I held a discussion forum with representatives of some 40 leading organisations whose members make intensive use of information. My object was to give them a chance to talk about their needs and the pattern of information services they would like to see developing to meet them.

May I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply and congratulate him on setting up the forum? Given the increasing value of information technology, does my right hon. Friend agree that it will become even more important for him to liaise closely with those who use information technology and the relevant Government Departments?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend and am grateful to him for his remarks. We shall publish the forum's report as soon as possible and I hope that it will lead to further useful debate.

Will the Minister look into the quality of the verbiage of arts information and, in particular, will he gear it towards potential rather than existing audiences?

That is a slightly different question, but I will study what the hon. Gentleman has said to see whether I can do anything to help.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that it is a pity that he will not be able to invite to such forums the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) in his former official capacity? Will my right hon. Friend express regret, as I do, that the hon. Gentleman's eccentric views on other subjects have deprived the arts of his services?

I am sure that we are all deeply depressed at the hon. Gentleman's departure from the arts scene, but I suspect that, nevertheless, we shall hear his contributions from time to time.

indicated assent.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied with the amount of support from all sources for the arts in the outer London boroughs.

I am never satisfied, but the situation differs a good deal from one borough to another. If my hon. Friend has a specific point I should willingly consider it.

In the debate and controversy that surrounds the distribution of the total arts grant, the argument usually centres on how much London gets and how much the provinces get. Is my right hon. Friend aware that many people in the outer London boroughs believe that they are completely bypassed? Although, quite properly, substantial tranches of arts grant go to the national institutions such as the Royal Opera House. the National Theatre and the English National Opera. knowing the excellent work that is done by the arts centres in the outer London boroughs—not least Barnet arts centre—will my right hon. Friend keep a friendly watch on the situation?

Yes, I think that my hon. Friend has made a good point. The distincition is between central London rather than London as a whole and the rest of the country. I accept that some areas of outer London need a great deal of help in the arts. I shall bear my hon. Friend's views in mind.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is an exciting plan to establish a significant theatre complex in Harrow? Will the Government give support and encouragement to that plan?

I suspect that that is a matter for the Arts Council, rather than the Government. If my hon. Friend writes to me I shall look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of the Arts Council about future funding of the arts.

I shall be seeing the new chairman of the Arts Council later today and will, of course, be having regular discussions with him on matters concerning the arts.

Will my right hon. Friend accept the congratulations of the House on the recent settlement on grants for the arts? Will he impress upon the new chairman of the Arts Council that it is more than a question of public expenditure for the arts and that he should give his full weight to sponsorship, which many hon. Members see as the way forward in the arts?

Yes, I shall certainly do that. There is widespread support in the House for the concept of sponsorship of the arts as a welcome and growing supplement to public support.

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that no Government can be thought of as fulfilling their full responsibilities towards the arts if, as the Government have done, they fund the arts through the Arts Council at a real monetary value that is less than the current rate of inflation? Will the right hon. Gentleman ponder that fact—and the fact that it is a minor thing to lose a marginal job in a Shadow Ministry when one happens to be right on a major issue of the day?

I do not think that I should be drawn into the second part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question, except to say that on personal grounds I much regret his disappearance from the arts scene. However, I think the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is essential, at a time of economy in public expenditure, that all areas, including the arts, should bear their share. In the circumsances, what the Government have been able to provide for the Arts Council has been very good.

Will my right hon. Friend, during his conversation later today, draw the attention of the new chairman to the exciting new Welsh sculpture trust, which is arranging for sculptures to be placed in some of the most delightful parkland in South Wales? If there is no financial backing by way of sponsorship from industry, will the Government consider giving assistance within the existing budget? If that is impossible, will the Government consider what other measures can be taken to assist the project under the chairmanship of Judge Bruce Fletcher-Griffiths?

What my hon. Friend says certainly sounds an attractive and interesting idea. It will be helpful if he will write to me with details of the project.

When the Minister discusses the funding of the arts with the chairman of the Arts Council, will he take into account the report of the Select Committee, particularly on VAT? Does the Minister realise that the anomalies are such that in some cases great orchestras pay more in VAT than the subsidy they receive from the Government? Is the Minister aware that this is having an adverse effect on the number of seats taken up at concerts and in the live theatre?

Naturally I am studying the Select Committee's report on this topic and I hope to reply in the not-too-distant future. This situation has persisted under both Governments in the recent past, and I note what the hon. Gentleman says.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he has received the Rayner report on the Victoria and Albert museum and the Science museum.

Yes, Sir. I have just received the report, am carefully studying it, and I hope to make an announcement later this week.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that these two great London museums, which are among our great national assets, would in many ways be better administered as trusteeship bodies rather than be responsible direct to a Government Department?

That point of view is widely shared, but it is clearly a matter of great consequence for the future of the museums. That aspect is clearly covered by the report. I shall naturally want to study the report and take into account what my hon. Friend said before making an announcement later this week.

What success has the right hon. Gentleman had in convincing the staffs of the Victoria and Albert and the Science Museums that there are positive advantages in becoming members of staff of trustee-run museums?

It would have been quite inappropriate for me to make any efforts to persuade them of that or any other course, since the Government have only this week received the report. No decisions have yet been made. It would be wrong of me to inform the House whether the report recommends in favour of that proposal or against it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what statistics he collects about expenditure by local authorities on the arts.

Each local authority supplies details of its expenditure on local services to the Government. My direct interest is in libraries and museums only; local authority spending on other aspects of recreation and the arts is a matter for my right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for the Environment and for Wales. Statistics of local expenditure in these various fields are published annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy.

Is the Minister aware of the large discrepancies in those statistics between one authority and another? Will he liaise with his right hon. Friends—the Secretary of State for Wales in particular—to encourage local authorities to make greater contributions towards the arts, libraries and other forms of the arts?

I certainly would not be against that, provided the local authorities concerned kept within the Goverment's overall spending figures. I shall willingly discuss this with my right hon. Friends, but, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the various tables include a wide variety of matters and it is extremely difficult to single out the arts from other recreational matters, such as swimming baths.

Can the Minister say how many local authorities have had to reduce expenditure on museum services, for which he is responsible?

None that I have noticed, but I am glad to say that local authority spending on the arts is holding up very well. Am Ito congratulate the hon. Gentleman on assuming a new portfolio? If so, it will be a delight to see him.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress is being made in obtaining a Royal charter for the Crafts Council.

I am happy to say that Her Majesty the Queen has now approved the grant of a charter to the Crafts Council.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this is extremely good news? Is he further aware of the importance of craft centres in providing a focus for economic activity and the growth of the tourist industry in rural areas, particularly in Wales? Does he agree that craft centres often form the nucleus of a growing economic centre in a remote area?

Yes, I agree that it is very good news for the Crafts Council. It shows how important its work is becoming. I also agree about the importance of craft workshops in rural areas. I hope to visit North Wales soon and perhaps I shall have the opportunity of seeing one. My hon. Friend will also note that part of the grant to the Arts Council is passed to the Welsh Arts Council to promote the work of artist-craftsmen in Wales.