asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current total number of unemployed persons registered in (a) the Ogmore constituency, (b) the Mid-Glamorgan area and (c) Wales; and how these figures have increased or decreased since 8 July.

On 9 September 1982 the figures were 6,496, 36,164 and 185,611, respectively, an increase of 147, 1,473 and 10,319 since 8 July 1982.

Is not the Secretary of State disgusted with his Government for increasing unemployment in Wales? Is he aware that in Ogmore there are only 170 vacancies for the 7,500 unemployed? While Parliament has had its feet up for the past two and a half months, unemployment in my area has escalated. Factories are closing—

Order. The hon. Gentleman must ask a question. I appeal to hon. Members to ask only one supplementary question, which will enable us to deal with all Welsh questions.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that a new mine is provided at Margam to alleviate unemployment in that area?

I deplore the fact that during the period in question unemployment has risen throughout the industrial world. The improvement in Britain's inflation rate and our improved competitiveness give hope for the future. I note that during the recess the Opposition put forward few constructive suggestions.

Can my right hon. Friend estimate the effect that the nationalisation of 25 top companies, as envisaged in the Labour programme for 1982, will have on unemployment in Wales?

It is clear that our nationalised industries are problem centres for both unemployment and financial matters. There is little optimism on that front.

Is the Secretary of State aware that unemployment in Wales has reached an all-time record and is a cause of concern for everyone in Wales? Is he aware that the Lord Bishop of Llandaff has written to hon. Members advocating an increase in unemployment benefit? Will he support that request in the Cabinet?

We all share the concern about unemployment, which is why the Government are spending a substantial sum—about £1·7 billion—on measures to alleviate the problem.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from commercial and community interests in Wales in favour of the Severn barrage.

In total we have received nine representations, of which six directly expressed support for further studies.

Is my hon. Friend aware that he ought to be doing his best to persuade his colleagues to decide in favour of the Bondi recommendations, not only because of the energy producing potential of the barrage, but because it has been reported that its construction could generate as many as 50,000 new jobs? If he does that, there will always be a welcome for him on the hillsides and in the valleys of Bristol.

The main question is whether there is an economic case for the Severn barrage on electricity generation grounds. My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Energy are discussing that at present.

Is not the Government's inertia over this imaginative scheme appalling, bearing in mind the support that it has been given by local authorities, such as Newport borough and Gwent county councils? Cannot the Minister appreciate that the barrage would produce many thousands of jobs in the construction industry and help to relieve unemployment in the area as well as bringing lasting benefits to future generations?

There is no question of any inertia, nor was that suggested by the Newport council when it met us. It was satisfied with that meeting. We must study the whole matter closely, including its impact on the coal industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council houses have been sold to sitting tenants in Wales since May 1979.

In the period May 1979 to June 1982, 18,247 council dwellings had been sold to sitting tenants in Wales. In addition, 846 dwellings had been sold by Cwmbran development corporation and the Development Board for Rural Wales.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied with the general rate of progress on the sale of council houses that has been achieved by Welsh local authorities?

Steady overall progress is being made. In April my right hon. Friend asked all local authorities to ensure that 60 per cent. of all applications received before 31 December 1981 were dealt with by 30 September 1982. Present indications are that most authorities have either achieved that target or come very near to doing so. One or two local authorities may still not be progressing as quickly as they ought.

Does the Minister share our anger that, yet again, as measured by the Order Paper, at a time of mounting homelessness and a virtual slump in both the public and private sectors, Conservative Members seem to be concerned solely with the sale of council houses, which will not generate one extra dwelling?

The hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken in his view of the sale of council houses. In fact, it has resulted in a bonanza for the local authorities. The trouble is that they are applying that bonanza not to housing but to reducing debt.

Is my hon. Friend aware that his optimism that the sale of council houses is proceeding apace in Wales is not always shared by those directly involved? Is he satisfied that both the civil servants in his own Department and local government employees are bending their wills to carry out the law of the land, which confers an undoubted right on many private individuals?

I certainly understand the position of tenants who have applied to buy but who, as yet, have not achieved completion of sale. We in the Welsh Office are doing all that we can to harry those laggard authorities that are not selling as quickly as we wish them to sell.

What is the size of the current council house waiting list in Wales?

That is a very different question from the one that I am answering, but the hon. Gentleman should understand that the sale of a council house to its sitting tenant does not reduce the housing stock.

If the Minister is so proud of the Government's housing record, how does he explain his disappearance from the recent Welsh housing conference at Llandrindod before answering any questions from the local authority representatives?

When I accepted the invitation I made it quite clear to the Council for the Principality that it was an acceptance only of the invitation to speak. I had another engagement, which I had to attend.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the present measures being taken to tackle unemployment in Wales.

I will not be satisfied until the measures taken to improve the economy have led to a substantial fall in the numbers unemployed in Wales.

Will the Secretary of State predict whether unemployment in Wales will be higher or lower in 12 months' time? If it is higher, who will he hold responsible?

I never make predictions about unemployment.

As no positive proposals to reduce unemployment have come from the Liberal Party, and as the Social Democrats have now had the principal platform of their unemployment policy knocked away by their own conference, is it not time that the Conservative Party upstaged them by taking ideas for voluntary early retirement a great deal further?

We must consider all ideas that will help to ameliorate this serious problem. My hon. Friend knows that at present massive measures are being taken to deal with those who are out of work, but far more important is the improvement in the rate of inflation and incompetitiveness which will create permanent jobs for the future.

On what possible basis does the Secretary of State believe the present measures will reduce the appalling unemployment in Wales?

I had good evidence that the measures are beginning to work from a major industrial company in north Wales only last week. Hotpoint told me that it is now disposing of its washing machines as fast as it can make them because the fall in interest and mortgage rates combined with the new hire purchase measures have, in its words, produced a mini boom in this sector. If that is beginning to happen, it is encouraging evidence for the future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures of the number of people who are unemployed in Wales, Mid-Glamorgan and Aberdare; and how many of these have been unemployed for more than two years and one year, respectively.

In July 1982, the latest date for which a duration analysis of the unemployed is available, unemployment totalled 175,292, 34,691, and 4,055, respectively. Of these, 24,412, 5,099, and 656 had been unemployed for more than two years and 62,301, 12,123 and 1,454 had been unemployed for more than one year.

Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the people of Wales believe that some of the Government's measures have led to the current level of unemployment in Wales? In view of the higher level of long-term unemployment, will the right hon. Gentleman look again at the Government's policy of removing special development and intermediate area status from many localities where unemployment has more than doubled since he took office as Secretary of State?

If we are to have an effective regional policy, it is important that it should be selective rather than indiscriminately spread throughout the United Kingdom.

As our trade deficit in manufactures with the EEC over the past six months, according to the latest Department of Trade figures, has been running at an annual rate in excess of £5,000 million, is it fair to say that Welsh jobs are now being taken by the French and the Germans? As productivity increases and lower wages may increase the value of sterling yet further, how will the Government ensure that the Welsh, like the rest of the United Kingdom, get some of their jobs back?

During the recess I visited a large number of industrial companies in Wales—in some cases with their headquarters in North America—which export more than two-thirds of their goods to the Common Market and which would not be contemplating new investment in those factories if we were to leave the Common Market.

As one Celt to another, will the Secretary of State accept the gratitude which the Social Democrats felt to the people of Cardiff for extending such a warm welcome to them and for the insight into the unemployment problems which the Welsh face under the Government of which he is a member?

Whose side is the hon. Gentleman on?

Some hon. Members thought that it was a slightly over-generous welcome to give the Social Democratic Party a hall which could seat 2,00() people when there were only 200 or 300 people there.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the increase in the numbers of people in Wales and Clwyd who have been unemployed since May 1979; if he will express these figures as a percentage; and if he will make a statement.

Between May 1979 and September 1982 unemployment increased by 102,587 and 13,613, respectively, or by 123·6 per cent. and 117·4 per cent.

Is our Welsh steel industry safe from new job losses? Given the state of emergency in the steel industry, what action will the Government take regarding energy costs and ':he need to stop the flood of subsidised steel imports?

The central problem facing the steel industry is not energy costs but world over-supply and the problems between the United States and the European Community. Those are matters for detailed discussion and negotiation.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the result of acceding to the demands of the National Union of Mineworkers would be the most incredible increase in electricity and other fuel costs to British industry and a serious further erosion of job opportunities in Britian?

I hope that members of the NUM will consider the impact of their actions on the rest of industry and jobs. There is no doubt that one of the problems affecting British energy prices is the high cost of coal.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had discussions with the British Steel Corporation on the future of the Whiteheads steelworks, Newport, Gwent; and whether he will make a statement.

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Wales visited the plant in September to meet the management and work force and to hear their views. I keep in continual touch with the British Steel Corporation and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry about the corporation's affairs.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that this excellent and efficient works is and has been for a long time an integral part of the economy of Gwent? Does he further appreciate that it is closely linked to the Llanwern works, which itself is under threat despite all the splendid efforts that have been made there? As the representative for Wales in the Cabinet, will he ensure that the voice of Wales is heard there and that those works are not allowed to close?

I appreciate all those points, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that the voice of Wales will be heard on those issues in the Cabinet.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that already a great sacrifice of steel workers' jobs in Wales has taken place as a means of securing the manning levels and efficiency that now obtain in the British steel industry? Has not the time now come when his job, and the jobs of his ministerial colleagues with responsibilities for Wales, should be put on the line to stop further closures in the Welsh steel industry? Will he show us his intention to fight this matter in the Cabinet or to resign?

I assure the hon. Gentleman that, whatever else I do, I should not discuss any plans for my resignation with him before taking a decision on that matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the percentages of male unemployment for Wales, West Glamorgan and Swansea at the latest available date and in May 1979.

On 9 September 1982, 19·9 per cent., 18·9 per cent. and 20·5 per cent., respectively, and in May 1979, 8·5 per cent., 7·4 per cent. and 8·3 per cent.

Do not those appalling figures, during the period that the Secretary of State has been in office, show the deterioration and destruction of much of our manufacturing base in West Glamorgan and Swansea? Does the right hon. Gentleman accept any responsibility for that massive decline?

We can at least take one crumb of comfort from this depressing situation. Although Wales has borne a share of the steel closures, and although it has always suffered when unemployment has been high throughout the United Kingdom, on this occasion unemployment has not increased anything like as fast in Wales as it has in the United Kingdom as a whole.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local authorities in Wales regarding the level of rate support grant for the coming financial year.

I shall be discussing the Welsh local authority associations' representations with them at the Welsh Consultative Council on local government finance meeting on Wednesday.

In those discussions, will my right hon. Friend take every opportunity to point out to the local authorities that the Government's even greater than expected success in bringing down the level of inflation gives them no pretext whatever for unwarranted increases in their projected expenditure, but, on the contrary, imposes an obligation upon them to contribute to the process of reducing inflation by keeping their costs below that level, if possible?

I shall point that out. In addition, I shall point out to the local authorities that the basis upon which they have been making their planning assumptions so far now looks to be on the high side. It now appears that inflation may be a good deal lower than they at first thought.

In the light of the Government's emphasis on community care through local authority social services, may we expect such expenditure to be defended by Ministers more rigorously than in the past?

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that expenditure allocations made by local authorities are matters over which I have no direct control. They have the choice. However, I made it clear to the local authorities that we think that these are important areas of responsibility.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the great fear in local authorities in Wales that a reduction in the rate support grant from 72½p in the pound to 70p in the pound would mean a rate increase of 11p? Will he make it clear to the people of Wales that if a rate increase of 11p is necessary for that reason, it is because of the Government's action in cutting back support, not because of any local authority profligacy?

I do not accept the figures that have been presented. The Government believe that if local authorities proceed on the basis that was set out in my RSG statement there is no reason why we should have substantial rate increases in the coming year on the scale that we have had in recent years.

When my right hon. Friend discusses the rate support grant with local authorities, will he ensure that a much greater allowance is made this year for the sparsity factor that affects rural counties?

My hon. Friend will be aware that we have detailed discussions with the local authority associations about the formulae that are used. This topic has been looked at frequently in the past, and I have no doubt that it will be looked at again on many occasions.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many council and housing association houses and flats have been sold to their occupying tenants in(a)Wales and(b)Cardiff; and how many have been applied for, under the right-to-buy provisions of the Housing Act 1980.

At 30 June 1982, 15,308 council dwellings—including 83 flats—and one housing association dwelling had been sold in Wales. In Cardiff, 783 houses but no flats and one housing association dwelling have been sold.

In view of the falling mortgage rate, does my hon. Friend agree that this is an excellent time for people to start to buy their properties? Is he satisfied with the non-sale of flats by Cardiff city council? Does he intend to take any powers under the 1980 Act to end this state of affairs?

I agree with my hon. Friend's first point.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were unemployed(a)in Merthyr Tydfil,(b)in Mid-Glamorgan and(c)in Wales in September; and what percentage increase these figures represent over those of May 1979.

On 9 September 1982 the figures were 4,701, 36,164 and 185,611, respectively, an increase of 156·3 per cent., 133·7 per cent. and 123·6 per cent. since May 1979.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not an abuse of the Order Paper that no fewer than four hon. Members have put down an identical question for which they have clearly merely filled in the form supplied by the Whips?

If the hon. Gentleman reads them carefully, he will see that they are not identical.

Is the right hon. aware that, even since the question was tabled, the proposed closure of half the BSC Dowlais foundry has been announced? That is the last foundry in Wales belonging to BSC. Will he follow the example of his counterpart in Scotland and publicly announce that he will not preside over the further decline and destruction of the steel industry in Wales?

Of course I regret the reduced capacity of Dowlais, but such matters are for the commercial decision of the corporation. It is not part of the wider consideration of the future of BSC's operations, as the hon. Gentleman implied.

Is the Secretary of State aware that several factories on the Bridgend trading estate and throughout Wales will close unless he instructs the Welsh Development Agency to stop the escalating rent increases? Some rents have increased by as much as 10 times. Will the right hon. Gentleman do something to alleviate that problem?

Where increases are as high as 10 times, it is because there have not been any rent increases for a considerable period and the rents are well out of line with current market rents.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the number of redundancies that will arise in local government in Wales, arising from his statement on local authority expenditure in Wales, made in the House on 28 July.

No. Local authorities are responsible for determining staff levels. The £1,205 million current expenditure provision, that my right hon. Friend announced in July is 7 per cent. more than this year's provision. Provided pay settlements are kept to very low single figures authorities should, in general, be able to reduce staff through normal wastage.

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that his right hon. Friend's announcement before the Summer Recess amounts to a cut of about £60 million in rate support grant? Will not such a cut lead not only to reductions in the number of those employed in local government but to cuts in essential services on which the quality of life depends?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman, and the points that he has made have been dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Since the Conservative Party came into office, local authorities in Wales have reduced their manpower by about 5 per cent. without a general recourse to redundancies. We do not see why they should have recourse to redundancies in the coming year. Local authorities are responsible for deciding their priorities for services. The proposed level of local authority current expenditure for next year implies the same levels of service as in the mid-1970s.

Does the Minister recall that in the depression of the 1930s, when unemployment was less than it is now in Wales, the Government put additional resources at the disposal of local authorities to enable them to provide schemes to employ unemployed building workers? Why do not the Government have such an imaginative scheme now, when there is such mass unemployment?

We have an extensive capital programme. The plans for current expenditure have been increased by £19 million more than was included in last year's public expenditure White Paper. In addition, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is increasing capital provision next year by about £17 million.

Where is the business sense in telling town hall workers that, as a result of the Government's cut in the rate support grant, they will no longer get their pay packets from the town hall, but will have to go down the road to the Department of Employment and the DHSS to pick up Government money, without having contributed to the productive side of the economy? What is the sense or morality in that?

The hon. Gentleman is wrong as far as Wales is concerned. The latest Manpower Watch returns show that authorities have started to increase their staff. That trend must be reversed if expenditure is to be kept to the Government's target.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Development Board for Rural Wales.

I have met him on a number of occasions during the summer and arrangements are being made for a formal meeting very soon to discuss the board's affairs.

What stage has been reached in enabling the DBRW to make industrial investment grants in its own right, as the right hon. Gentleman announced in June?

Discussions have been concluded between the board and the Department over the details. I understand that the board intends to announce the new scheme in Cardiff on 2 November.

Will the Secretary of State make a statement on the future of the DBRW in the light of continuing reports about its impending demise?

I do not know who is responsible for those reports, but since the Conservative Party came to office I have repeatedly made it clear that we support the DBRW, not only in words but in deed, and we shall continue to do so.

When the Secretary of State met him, did the chairman make representations to him about the effect of the Government's policy on the change in development area status? Is it not illogical to have a specialist agency that is not in an assisted area?

The benefits available to the board and within the board's area are substantially greater than those in comparable areas of unemployment in England. The money available under the new scheme and the details that have been agreed mean that the board will have a very effective package to offer incoming investors and those with new projects within the area.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that I was recently fortunate enough to visit rural Wales? Is he further aware that I found the state of the roads quite the best in the whole of the United Kingdom, the fields and hedges exceptionally trim and all the houses well painted? Therefore, will my right hon. Friend tell our Opposition colleagues the true state of affairs in much of Wales?

After those pleasant experiences, I hope that my hon. Friend will go there again.

We are all aware of the excellent work carried out by the DBRW to stem depopulation. In the light of that, is the Secretary of State in a position to give extra financial aid to the board?

The ceiling of £350,000 in the first full year for the new grants is a good deal higher than any recent payments of grant in a single year under the old arrangements.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the level of future expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales.

The Government's plans for future levels of expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales are published in the annual public expenditure White Paper. The most recent such White Paper is Cmnd.8494.

Is the Secretary of State not aware that the people of Wales are outraged and dismayed by the reports of the £56 million cuts in provision for health in the area, which are outlined on page 8 of the Welsh Office paper "Health Service Resources in Wales 1983–84", a copy of which I have in my hands? Will he now make clear the status of the document and give an absolute assurance that there will be no cuts under the headings outlined in the document and that the Welsh Office will be seeking an increase in health services in Wales?

The hon. Gentleman may be outraged by the reports, because there have been some grossly misleading reports, including—I am sorry to say—one from the BBC. However, the first sentence of that paper shows that no decisions have been taken about next year's expenditure on the Health Service in Wales. When I met the health authorities last week I made it absolutely clear that the document would enable us to discuss the future planning of finance in the Health Service. We did not discuss numbers, because the Government have not spelt out any numbers for what will be available.

Why is the Secretary of State being so unexpectedly and uncharacteristically coy and diffident about the paper, which he describes as a hypothesis, when he is clearly seeking to assuage the Prime Minister's well-known yearning to dismantle the NHS completely? Is he aware that if that option—as he describes it—is applied to Gwent, it will mean the end of the redevelopment of the Royal Gwent hospital, the end of any possibility of the promised hospital for the young chronically sick, the end of any possibility of a district hospital in Panteg or Pontllanfraith, and that all the capital expenditure schemes will be seriously arrested? Why does not the right hon. Gentleman come clean instead of trying to hide behind this curious notion of a hypothesis?

We have had the usual stream of hysterical nonsense from the hon. Gentleman, but I repeat that no decisions have been taken about the amount of money to be made available next year. I made that fact abundantly clear to the health authorities. Expenditure on the Health Service is running at record levels, the number of those employed in the NHS in Wales has increased by about one-third compared with a decade ago and expenditure has increased by more than 5 per cent. in real terms under this Government. The facts speak for themselves.

Is it not clear that the bad faith of much of the comment on this matter is matched only by the hypocrisy of the Labour Party, which would have us believe that there are infinite and infinitely expanding resources available to finance the Health Service? Is it not necessary, if any planning is to be undertaken, that at least the hypothesis of a fixed amount available has to be taken into consideration?

It is an interesting comment on the financial responsibility of Labour Members that they think that it is prudent to plan for the future on the assumption that there will always be unlimited resources available, and do not at least start planning on the assumption that resources may be rather less generously available than they have been over the past decade. It is because they were irresponsible in their financial planning that we have many of our difficulties today.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of that unsatisfactory answer and the accusations made, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when capital resources will be made available to Gwynedd health authority to start work on the reorganisation of Llandudno general hospital.

The health authority has not yet submitted proposals to the Welsh Office for the reorganisation of the hospital. The question of making capital resources available does not, therefore, yet arise.

Do the Minister and his Department know that the health authority is about to submit final plans later this month? Will the Minister give an assurance that, when he sees the plans, the reorganisation programme will be included in the capital budget for the Gwynedd health authority for 1983–84?

I have already advised the health authority that the scheme will be considered for inclusion in the all-Wales capital programme if it is ready for a start before 1 April 1984. The scheme is included in the health authority's dry run capital programme to start in 1984–85.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the proposals for the future of the redundant church of St. Albans, Teddington.

I am aware of proposals for the future of this building which the diocese of London has under consideration. I understand that these proposals are the subject of a planning application to Richmond borough council.

Will my hon. Friend explain to the House why St. Albans cannot go on as it is, and will he take note that an extremely difficult situation has arisen because most local people, as he will see from the reports that I have sent to him, wish St. Albans to stand but are opposed to what has been shown to be the only viable way of paying for it?

In the view of the diocese of London, which is the responsible authority in this matter, changes may be necessary. I have to be careful, although I hope that I have not been unhelpful to my hon. Friend, because it could be that recommendations will be made to the Church Commissioners on which they would have to act in a quasi-judicial capacity. However, I can tell my hon. Friend, from certain knowledge, that all the anxieties of the local residents, of which he has made me aware, will be carefully weighed before decisions are reached.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the conditions of service of beneficed clergymen.

The only information I can add to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend on 5 July is the analysis of stipends in payment in 1982 in the Central Stipends Authority's tenth report, which will be published shortly. I shall arrange for a copy to be sent to my hon. Friend.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply and congratulate him and those whom he prepresents on their good sense :in improving the pay and conditions of clergy and bishops, enabling them to carry out God's work on earth in a better way. Does my hon. Friend agree that a handful of bishops and clergy must be overpaid and underworked to have time to produce the sort of political diatribe that has been published today calling for unilateral disarmament?

The Church Commissioners, for whom I answer, have no responsibility for the report in question. It is a report of only a few, however distinguished, people. There are a large number of churchmen who do not think it incompatible w ith their beliefs to regard it as most unwise, in the face of an expansionist atheistic communism, to do away with nuclear weapons.

Will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that the clergy, who are poorly paid, will not have their pockets hit because of any alleged waywardness in their views on unilateral disarmament? Will he confirm that, now that some consider the Church of England to be the SDP at prayer, clergymen's pay will not suffer?

Freedom of thought in these matters is total for the clergy. I have no doubt that those few who have temporarily lost their balance politically will soon find it again.

Is not the danger that the Church of England is becoming, not the SDP at prayer, but the CND at prayer?

It is important to repeat that the report is merely that of a few people. It will he discussed by the Church of England's parliament in February and we must await the outcome of that.

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what subjects he expects will be discussed at the next meeting between the Commission and trade union representives of the employees of the House.

Negotiations and consultations are usually carried out between representatives of management and trade unions without the direct involvement of the Commission.

When can the trade union side expect a response to its proposals for a procedure agreement on disputes? Does my right hon. Friend agree that the trade union proposals will be far more conducive to good industrial relations than any proposals to impose a no-strike clause, which will be even more restrictive and even more anti-trade union than the notorious Tebbit law?

I gather that the consultations normally take place on the Whitley committee, which is now working well. I hope that that will continue, but the Commission will always be interested in hearing views from both management and staff.

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that when the next annual report of the Commission is published, we shall be given some account of these various conversations?

The Commission reports as fully as it can. I doubt whether the trade unions and the management would like the conversations to be published. Most consultations are carried out in a way whereby we hope to achieve the best results without discussion on the Floor of the House.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry what action he has taken as a result of the criticisms of his Department by the Committee of Public Accounts in relation to the disposal of assets at British Leyland, Bathgate.

The report of the Public Accounts Committee, to which the hon. Member refers, is being studied by the Government. In line with normal practice, the Government's response will be given by way of a Treasury minute in due course.

In the view of Ministers, were the criticisms of the Public Accounts Committee just or unjust?

I cannot anticipate the reply that the Government will be making.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will make a statement regarding the future of the National Theatre museum.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has yet reached any conclusion on the proposals for the closure of the Museum of Childhood and abandonment of the Theatre museum project.

I announced on 11 August the Government's conclusion that the proposed Theatre museum project in the Old Flower Market in London's Covent Garden should go ahead and that the Museum of Childhood, Bethnal Green, should be retained.

Will the Minister accept that we are grateful to him for his courtesy in meeting the pro-museum delegation, that we congratulate him on his part in saving the project, and trust that he and his Department will now put all their good wishes behind the project?

I am grateful to the hon. Member for his kind remarks. I assure him that we are determined that the project shall go ahead.

I trust that my right hon. Friend is in no doubt about the gratitude of all of us who are concerned with these museums for the action he has taken to secure their future. However, does he agree that the proposals for closure, which went beyond the question of whether the museums are wastefully run to the political question of whether they should be run at all, have unnecessarily raised doubts about Government support for the arts? Will he adopt the quickest means of removing those doubts, by ensuring an adequate allocation for the Arts Council next year?

There is, I believe, a separate question on the Order Paper about that matter. No one can be under any doubt about the Government's support for the arts. If the Government had not bothered to support the arts, they would not have taken these two decisions. I was impressed, as were the whole Government, by the strength of representations from both sides of the House.

The decision is to be welcomed. On reflection, however, does the Minister really believe that Rayner scrutiny exercises of this kind, carried out by a single, retired civil servant looking partially into the museum problem without taking an overall view, are serious and sensible?

One would obviously have to reflect before carrying that proposition further. I believe that the report that the House had to consider was a serious step. It raised serious issues which serious people had to consider before coming to decide a rational allocation of funds. I should like to take this opportunity of saying that much of the criticism of the scrutineer who carried out the report was most unfair.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that members of the Select Committee are grateful to him for acting so speedily on their recommendations? Can we expect that he will act with similar sympathetic expedition on the report to be published tomorrow?

Is that not what is called a hypothetical question? We have not seen the report. Naturally, I shall do my best to keep on good terms with the Select Committee.

I also congratulate the Minister on the decision that he took. I thank him also for seeing the Labour Party delegation that visited him. Whatever he says in the House now, his decision will be seen as a proper rebuff to Mr. Burrett for his report. Will the Minister therefore publicly dissociate himself from recommendation 12 of Mr. Burrett's proposals to the effect that the two museums which were examined should now begin to charge, wholly or in part, for access to their collections?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the Government have announced that we do not intend to impose charges for general admission to the main collections of museums. I do not wish, however, to prejudge the proposals that future trustees of museums might put forward as part of their policy for the good management of the museums. I do not wish to impose charges against the wishes of the museums.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make special additional funds available for ethnic minority arts.

Assistance for the arts is given through the Arts Council, which takes account of ethnic minority applications when considering its grant distribution. Funds are also allocated to arts projects by the Commission for Racial Equality.

Is the Minister not aware of the concern of many ethnic minority communities to maintain their own cultural heritage and so contribute to the cultural richness of multi-racial Britain? Is he not aware also that they feel that they should be able to look to the Government for public funds to provide some of the help that is needed? Will the Minister also confirm that Sir William Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the Arts Council, in his letter to him on 31 August, suggested that there should be a specific allocation of funds in 1983–84 to help ethnic minority arts? Does he intend to agree to that suggestion?

Help for ethnic arts, or, indeed, any form of arts, is for the Arts Council to decide in the light of the funds received from the Government. I understand that the Arts Council wishes to give priority to arts provision that has relevance to ethnic minority communities. All these matters will have to be considered when the Arts Council allocation is settled.

I back the call for support in respect of the arts for ethnic minorities. Does my right hon. Friend not agree, however, that, at a time of pressure on available funds, equal treatment must be given to all sections of the community when so many people are calling for help?

I believe strongly that this cannot be done on a per capita basis. All Arts Council grants must be assessed on the basis of artistic merit. It must not be done on a per capita basis. This must apply equally to ethnic arts projects as to any other.

I accept that allocations cannot be made on a per capita basis. Does the Minister not accept, however, that in areas such as Leicester, with large ethnic minority communities, special care should be taken to see that cultural needs are looked after? Will he consult the governors of the BBC on the need for help to ensure that there are programmes in ethnic minority languages—in mother tongues—during those periods of local radio time which have been allocated to ethnic minority groups in general and to Asian communities in particular?

The last part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question should be addressed to the Home Secretary. I am not responsible for the activities of the BBC. I agree that there is a problem over ethnic arts. The Arts Council takes it seriously and has commissioned a special paper and a special report. Everyone is agreed that worthwhile artistic projects should have support from the Arts Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on the progress of the arrangements for European Music Year 1985.

The United Kingdom committee for European Music Year is already active under the chairmanship of his Royal Highness the Duke of Kent. The United Kingdom is also represented on the European organising committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) and I should like to congratulate him on his untiring work in this field.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his congratulations and, in turn, congratulate him and the Arts Council on the fact that the British committee, in its preparations for 1985, is far ahead of all others. Apart from the major role of professional music in European Music Year, is it the intention of the Department of Education and Science to encourage local education authorities and schools to make a major musical effort in 1985?

This must be right. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science has approved, as a member of the United Kingdom committee for European Music Year, a staff inspector for music who has been asked to take the chair for education. I think that this well takes care of my hon. Friend's question.

Would not the best contribution of the right hon. Gentleman's Department be to review the effect of cuts on musical instrument teaching and the pros ision of peripatetic music teachers in schools? Will he make use of European Music Year to take action?

The hon. Gentleman has a good point. I am also flattered that he should think that I shall still be Minister for the Arts in 1985.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is no country where amateur music-making is more important than the United Kingdom and that there is also no country where closer accord exists between amateur and professional music-makers? Will he ensure that amateur music-makers play an important part in his plans for European Music Year?

That is mainly a matter for the committee. I agree with my hon. Friend. Amateur music-makers are represented on the committee.

Will the activities of the Royal Academy of Music and the Royal College of Music be co-ordinated through the Arts Council? Will the Minister call for reports from time to time, prior to the commencement of European Music Year, to see what is happening in our major institutions?

The Royal Academy of Music and, I believe, the Royal College—although I will have to check—are represented on the committee that is organising European Music Year. Their views will be well known. I understand that the Royal College is represented. This need not go through the Arts Council. There will be full representation on the European Music Year committee.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when last he met the chairman of the Arts Council; and if he will make a statement on the discussions which took place.

I met the chairman on 4 October, when we discussed various topics of mutual interest.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. I should like to elucidate more details about private patronage. Does he expect more encouragement for this important feature of the arts in consequence of actions to be taken by the Arts Council?

Yes, I very much hope so. The chairman of the Arts Council is keen to encourage private sponsorship of the arts. My impression is that this is still increasing at a fast rate. I hope very much that this continues to be the case.

As the Minister, at an early stage, read Sir William Rees-Mogg's letter, will he accept that if the level of funding for the Arts Council next year falls significantly below £98·5 million, one of the four national companies based in London may have all financial support withdrawn? Will he accept also that a proper level of funding for those companies is needed, especially as we await the recommendations on this subject from the Select Committee on Education and Science?

The Government have yet to announce public expenditure plans for next year. All these factors will be borne in mind. I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman would wish to raise alarms. There is no evidence that what he says is true and that any one of the four great companies is in danger.

Did my right hon. Friend see the excellent leader inThe Daily Telegraphabout candle-end savings? Will he take that carefully into account when allocating the Arts Council grant for next year?

Yes, I certainly read that leader. I am sure that my hon. Friend will draw it to the attention of other hon. Members.

In view of the widening interest in the affairs of the Arts Council and the demands for far more money to be put at its disposal, will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the council is a somewhat remote and nebulous body and that even most people interested in the arts have no idea who serves on it? Will he think seriously about introducing an element of democracy into the membership of the council and allow groups such as the TUC—[Interruption.]—which has an important arts committee, although the ignoramuses on the Conservative Benches do not understand that, to be represented properly on the Arts Council?

There have often been individual trade unionist members of the Arts Council, and that might well be a very good idea again. What I cannot accept is that people should be represented as of right. There would be no end to that process. All sorts of groups want to be represented as of right, including all the local authority associations and many others as well. That would be even worse than the present situation.