asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest available estimate of the underspend on housing in Wales during the current financial year.

The local authority expenditure returns for the first two quarters show an underspend of around £80 million. However, following conversations with the local authorities, we hope that that figure might be substantially reduced.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the matter will be resolved in a manner that is acceptable to his Department?

As I said, we hope that we can considerably reduce that underspend. The uprating of renovation grants in the Budget, and the announcement that higher rates will be available next year, coupled with the fact that excess expenditure under that head this year will be covered by increased allocations, should encourage local authorities to be more enterprising in their use of resources. In addition, we are encouraging enveloping schemes of repair in housing action areas and low-cost home ownership schemes. However, it is a matter for local authority action.

Will the Minister confirm that there is some difference of opinion between the Welsh Office and local authority treasurers in Wales as to the suitability of using the money for new build or further capital purposes rather than first repaying the outstanding debts on loans that were taken up when assets were first bought? What is the advice of the Welsh Office on that issue?

We are fully aware, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman and local authorities are, of housing needs in Wales. The latest survey reveals that that need is acute. I understand that local authorities are carrying forward their capital allocations, redeeming debts, or investing the money in order to use the interest to keep rent levels down. My advice and that of my officials is clear. The money should be used for housing purposes.

Will the Minister confirm that he told the Council for the Principality that, on his conservative estimate, we should need to build new dwellings at the rate of about 12,000 per annum in Wales? Will the Minister also confirm that the Labour Government achieved that figure, while this Government have not achieved such a figure in any single year of office?

The current underspend is nothing new and it means that money is available. Not only is there money available for new build now, but there was money available last year, when there was an underspend of some £35 million. Labour authorities are as guilty as any others of not meeting the housing needs that we have spelt out.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what study he has made of the likely effect of the Severn barrage project on employment in Wales.

A scheme on the scale proposed would create a substantial number of jobs at different times during the construction period. It is not possible at this stage to be more precise about the job impact on any particular area.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the economic case for the Severn barrage becomes stronger every day? Does he appreciate that the cost per kilowatt hour of the electricity produced would be comparable to that produced by new coal power stations and new nuclear power stations? Is my hon. Friend also aware that, conversely, the job creation potential of the Severn barrage diminshes with time as construction technology advances?

Yes. I have seen several estimates for job creation as a result of the scheme, varying from 50,000, as has been suggested by my hon. Friend, to 20,000 to 30,000, as has been referred to by the Severn barrage committee. The question is whether there is an economic case for the barrage on electricity generation grounds. We are considering that.

Are not the Government dragging their feet over the question of a second crossing for the Severn? Does the Minister agree that in order to tackle an imaginative project such as the Severn barrage scheme Britain needs a Government with faith in their people, not one who are prepared to allow 4 million citizens to languish in the dole queues?

No, Sir. Mere verbiage will not solve the problem of the Severn barrage or the crossing. The problem is that the barrage will not be where the crossing is needed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the total increase in unemployment in Wales, Clwyd and the Deeside travel-to-work area since May 1979; and if he will make a statement.

Between May 1979 and October 1982 the numbers unemployed increased by 102,062, 13,779 and 5,837 respectively.

Given the massive beating that the steel industry in Wales has taken in the past few years, what action is the Secretary of State taking to assist it? Does the right hon. Gentleman know that there are widespread fears in Wales about further steel redundancies? Is he prepared to meet tomorrow union and civic leaders who will be travelling from North Wales to the steel lobby to express their deep concern about the future?

I am in close touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and with the chairman of the BSC in considering the chairman's proposals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already announced that he hopes to reach conclusions before Christmas.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the vast sums needed to maintain crude steel production in the United Kingdom, even at its present reduced level, might be better employed in creating new jobs in which there is a better chance of competing with the rest of the world?

It is worth recording that, due to the efforts made so far, not least by the work force, the major plants in Wales have a good chance of competing with the rest of the world. That is the best guarantee of their future.

Does the Secretary of State agree that for historic reasons private investment capital is not as readily available in Wales as it is in England and that, accordingly, public investment must play a greater role?

In the past few years there has been substantial public investment. However, we must use it to trigger more private investment. That is one of the objects of the urban development grant scheme. I am gratified by the number of proposals that have been brought forward and I hope that that will attract significant additional private sector investment in Wales.

As the unemployment figures have been massaged downwards, there are about 10,000 Welsh people who are still unemployed but who are no longer registered as such. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the number employed in Wales has fallen by 125,000 since he took office, which means that fewer people are now employed in Wales than in any year since the war?

I confirm that I have given figures on the historic basis and not in connection with the changes announced last week by the Secretary of State for Employment. I accept that during the severe recession there has been a significant fall in the number of those employed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest estimate of the number of people in Gwynedd who are unemployed; what proportion of the work force this represents; and what were the comparable figures for May 1979 and October 1974, respectively.

In October 1982 the figure was 13,029, or 17·0 per cent., of the employee population. In May 1979 the figure was 6,463, or 8·5 per cent., and in October 1974 4,392, or 6·4 per cent.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the people of Gwynedd find that constant doubling of unemployment quite unacceptable? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Sweden unemployment stands at only 4 per cent. and that that figure is regarded as unacceptably high and avoidable? Is he further aware that Sweden is actively creating jobs to reduce that percentage? What do the Government intend to do to reduce unemployment in Gwynedd?

Of course unemployment is distressingly high, although it is no higher in Gwynedd than in Wales as a whole. Long-term jobs will be created if we can overcome the inflation and non-competitiveness of recent years, and significant progress is being made in that direction. However, we can be sure that unemployment will not be solved by schemes that involve a 30 per cent. devaluation, non-existent incomes policies and the sort of things proposed by the Opposition.

Given the tragic increase in unemployment in Gwynedd, in Wales as a whole and in the United Kingdom, does it not follow that if the Government bring forward new immigration rules they should not allow for any primary immigration of males seeking jobs?

My hon. Friend will be aware that I am not responsible for immigration policy. However, he may not be aware that there is a very small immigration population in Wales and that it is even smaller in Gwynedd. Therefore, immigration cannot be seen as a significant factor in increasing unemployment in the Principality.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to alleviate the level of unemployment in Ceredigion.

The Development Board for Rural Wales and other agencies are already taking substantial steps in this regard.

Has the Secretary of State any encouraging news for those leaving school before Christmas in the Teifi valley? During the past 10 years, under successive Governments, unemployment has stood at over 20 per cent.

No, but, as was the case last year, an encouraging number of school leavers have obtained employment this year or are being catered for by one of the job creation schemes. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the new scheme of grants which the Development Board for Rural Wales has recently announced to assist job creation in the area.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of any comparable area of unemployment in England or Wales that has received the advantage of the recent investment incentive grants announced for mid-Wales?

My hon. Friend is right, and it might be rash to attract the attention of others to that point. Unemployment in mid-Wales is not as high as it is in some other areas, where the incentives are less attractive.

What crumbs of hope and comfort can the Secretary of State offer to people living on both sides of the Teifi valley—only part of which comes under the ingenious and inventive aegis of the DBRW—in relation to reducing unemployment, which already stands at 20 to 25 per cent.?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are other agencies and that the Welsh Development Agency covers the whole of Wales. It has a wide package of measures to attract industry throughout its area of responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the effect of pit closures upon the economy and social fabric of the Welsh valley communities.

As is well known, pit closures have affected these areas of Wales for many years, and notably in the period up to 1970. A wide range of Government policies have been introduced to deal with the consequences and in particular to widen the employment base throughout South Wales.

Is the Secretary of State aware that pit closures since 1970 have had a devastating effect, particularly on the constituency of Ogmore, which has witnessed the closure of the Caerau colliery, and the closure last year of the Coegnant colliery? There is now a hit list which includes another colliery, Nant-y-Moel, in my constituency. In Ogmore there are now 8,000 people on the dole, but only 100 vacancies. What do the Government intend to do? Can the Secretary of State do something about the development of a new mine at Margam?

There was a significant fall in the number of those employed in Welsh mines under successive Labour Administrations. However, since late 1981, when the Coegnant pit in the hon. Gentleman's constituency closed, there have been only three partial pit closures in Wales. Nevertheless, the hon. Gentleman is right to say that there has been a reduction in numbers. However, decisions about pit closures are a matter for the National Coal Board to negotiate with the unions.

Does not the best hope for a healthy coal industry in Wales and the maximum employment of miners lie in phasing out those pits which, for geological reasons, are no longer capable of profitable production, and, instead, concentrating resources on the potentially good producers?

Two factors are involved. The first is the sensible and reasonable approach recently demonstrated by miners in refusing to follow their leaders into an impossible pay demand. The second is that we must concentrate on the pits with the greatest potential. Over a period that will inevitably mean the closure of some of our worked-out pits.

Has the Secretary of State studied the document published in Brussels earlier this year entitled "The Role for Coal in the Community Energy Strategy"? Does he agree that, the call in that document for massively expanded imports of non-EEC produced coal could have disastrous consequences for the Welsh coal industry? Would it not make much greater sense for the Welsh coal industry to receive adequate investment to allow us to develop the Margam new mine and replace the Phurnacite plant at Abercwmboi?

Very substantial investment is going into the coal industry. Total capital investment in the United Kingdom for 1981–82 was £722 million. The National Coal Board must decide in which pits it invests.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures of the number of people who are unemployed in Wales, Mid-Glamorgan and Aberdare; what percentage this represents of the working population; and how these figures compare with May 1979.

On 14 October 1982 unemployment totalled 185,086, 35,698 and 4,212 respectively, representing unemployment rates of 17·4, 18·2 and 19·3 per cent. The corresponding figures and percentages for May 1979 were 83,024—7·5 per cent., 15,471—8·5 per cent. and 1,961—9·0 per cent.

When the Government say that the reason for unemployment is lack of competitiveness, what does the Secretary of State have to say about the Government's record, as British competitiveness has fallen by 38 per cent. since they came to office? With regard to the South Wales pits, will the Secretary of State read the evidence submitted by the South Wales miners to the Select Committee last week, in which it was shown that investment in the South Wales pits has not come from the Coal Board? What is the right hon. Gentleman doing as Secretary of State?

I shall answer only one of those questions—the first. I must point out that there has been a substantial recovery of competitiveness in the past two years and that the measures taken by the Government, the seven points reduction in interest rates, which is worth about £1½ billion to £2 billion in reducing industry's costs, the reduction in Labour's wicked job tax, which will save industry probably £1 billion this year and £1½ billion next year, and the doing away with deferment on regional development grants, which is worth about £30 million to Welsh industry alone, are all considerable measures to improve the competitiveness of British industry.

Will my right hon. Friend take account of the great potential of the building and construction industries? Will he examine carefully the proposals that have been put to him by the official organisation of builders in Wales, which believes that it can make a useful contribution?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The Government have a massive road building and hospital building programme. If only the local authorities, which are predominantly Labour-controlled, would spend the £90 million or so which they look like underspending this year, the construction industry would be greatly helped.

Given all these tremendous incentives, when will a new firm come to Merthyr borough? Is the Secretary of State aware that there has not been one since May 1979?

I entirely agree that we would like to see more jobs coming into Merthyr borough, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the upturn in the retail trade, which is benefiting the Hoover firm in his constituency. I noted that he laughed at my suggestion at a previous Welsh Question Time that it was now enjoying a mini-boom, but that was exactly the phrase the company used when it issued its quarterly results.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the unemployment figures have now reached emergency levels?

I agree that they are extremely serious. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who has repeatedly raised the specific issue of unemployment in the town of Flint, will welcome the decision to set up an enterprise zone there and will now do everything to encourage the local authority to make a success of it. I found it very surprising that the hon. Gentleman did not come to the House this afternoon to thank me for that announcement.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will study the incidence of accidents on the A55 road at Bodelwyddan, Clwyd; and if he will take steps to reduce accidents on this stretch of road pending the completion of the bypass of the village.

The Welsh Office has been keeping this under review. Various safety measures have been introduced and a pedestrian footbridge has been provided. Because of the recent fatal accidents, I have asked Clwyd county council to improve the junction with Ty Fry Lane. The Welsh Office will also consider with the council what additional preventive measures might be introduced.

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful answer. Does he agree that the only long-term answer is to speed up the construction of the bypass? Since all agree that the only effective short-term answer would appear to be the painting of double white lines on the road, will he arrange for the present regulations forbidding the painting of double white lines in such circumstances to be overridden if necessary?

The Bodelwyddan bypass will progress as quickly as possible, but I do not expect a start to be made before 1984. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making the constructive suggestion about white lines. These will be considered by the county surveyor and the Department's officials.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unemployment figures for the Garnant and Ammanford travel-to-work areas of the Amman valley.

On 14 October unemployment in the travel-to-work area covering Garnant and Ammanford was 7,066, a rate of 19 per cent.

As the figures that the Secretary of State has been kind enough to produce emphasise the bleakness of the unemployment position throughout the Amman valley, may I ask him to plead with the Department of Industry to give back to the area its former financial incentives, otherwise firms such as Beechwood, which has parallel plants in England and Wales, will invariably close its Welsh operations in hard times?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that this is now part of a travel-to-work area that is a uniform development area. There has recently been an announcement in that travel-to-work area of major factory building by the Welsh Development Agency and that there is also a major road improvement to link the area to the M4. All these, I am sure, will help.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied that the youth service in Wales is able to provide for all young people who have need of it; and if he will make a statement.

Her Majesty's inspectors have recently undertaken a comprehensive study of the youth services provided by local education authorities and voluntary organisations in Wales. I expect to have their report by next spring.

Will the Minister tell us when he expects to publish this report so that there can be full discussion of its implications within the youth service in Wales, as the Government have published already the report of the review group on youth service in England?

It will be my intention to publish the report soon after I receive it from the inspectors. There is no real reason for accepting the English report, as we have our own coming out in the spring.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that the proposals recently put forward by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment for job-splitting among young people could make a useful contribution to ensuring that larger numbers of school leavers have a job to go to, even if it is, for the time being, a part-time job?

The proposal to split jobs is helpful for young people seeking employment. When we are discussing the youth service, we are more concerned with the services and clubs provided for young people in the Principality.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest figure of the number of people unemployed in Newport, Gwent; and what percentage of the working population in Newport this represents.

As at 14 October 1982 a total of 13,821 were unemployed in the Newport travel-to-work area, representing 15·4 per cent. of the working population.

Does the Secretary of State recall that not so long ago I was describing Newport as the workshop of Wales, but that now approximately 16 per cent. of its population are unemployed, largely as a result of the policies of this Government, whom he has so assiduously supported? Does his conscience tell him at times that he should resign or, as Max Boyce would put it, is it not time for him to put the tools on the bar?

I note that despite the reductions in employment in the steel industry in the area, unemployment is well below the Welsh average. I also note that there are nearly 1 million sq. ft. of Welsh Development Agency premises in the wider travel-to-work area around Newport. I note also, with pleasure, that the Cwmbran development corporation's factories are being occupied almost as fast as it can build them. In fact, only planning problems with the county council means that more factories are not available. It shows that the area is attractive to incoming industry.

Would my right hon. Friend care to guess at the unemployment that might result in Newport from the massive increase in public expenditure espoused by the hon. Member for Newport (Mr. Hughes) and his proposal that Britain should leave the European Economic Community?

Leaving the EEC would immediately put a stop to inward investment like that in Mitel, which is to provide about 1,700 jobs in the area. If we had a 30 per cent. devaluation without an effective incomes policy there would be a massive and destructive increase in inflation. Anyone who imagines that there will be an effective incomes policy under a Labour Government can imagine anything.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the amount of the increase of real expenditure on the Health Service in Wales since May 1979.

Between 1979–80 and the end of the current financial year we have provided for an increase of almost 10 per cent. in real terms in total Health Service spending in Wales.

Does not that big real increase make nonsense of the Opposition's talk about a cut in health services in Wales? How does the Government's revenue allocation to health authorities compare with that of their predecessors?

The real measure of the Government's commitment to the NHS lies in the health authority revenue allocations. Between 1974–75 and 1978–79 revenue allocations in Wales rose by 10·6 per cent. and between 1978–79 and 1982–83 by 11·3 per cent.

Can the Minister tell the House, Health Service workers and clients in Wales, the real implications of the proposals circulated in the recent document? Will they not result in reduction in allocations to health authorities?

The hon. Gentleman—and I am surprised at it—has misunderstood the doucment. It begins by saying that allocations for next year have not yet been decided. The document was concerned with achieving the best value for money in the Health Service in Wales and with priorities for spending in the Health Service in Wales.

In which areas of medical care has there been a real reduction in expenditure per head on the Health Service in Wales since May 1979?

The hon. Gentleman should table a question to obtain a detailed answer. It is clear from the 10 per cent. growth in real terms—and this applies to capital spending as well, because this year we shall spend £45·5 million by way of capital spend, which is 20 per cent. up on the previous year—that there has been growth in most health spending in Wales.

What financial provision has the Minister made for educating the community to receive discharged mentally ill and mentally handicapped people into its midst? The Minister has said that education is more important than legislation in such circumstances. Is the Welsh Office in the "Brittan" or the "Fowler" corner in relation to the uprating of Health Service expenditure?

I cannot believe that the hon. Gentleman has been following all the consultations and what has happened as a result of the publication of "Care in the Community". Is he not aware that recently the first all-Wales health forum was held and that the matter was thoroughly discussed under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? Of course we are taking special steps to improve the lot of mentally handicapped people in the community. They deserve the high priority that the working party accorded to them.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what length of new trunk roads has been completed in the area covered by the Wrexham constituency during the past two years.

None, but, as the hon. Member knows, we are considering proposals for major improvements to the A483 trunk road within his constituency.

Is the Minister aware that male unemployment in the Wrexham area—one of the most populous areas in North Wales—now involves almost one-quarter of the labour force? Does he agree that one of the best remedies for that deplorable state is to improve the inadequate road communications to the motorway system? In this pre-election period will that crucial issue be tackled with urgency?

The issue has been tackled, and it has nothing to do with a pre-election period. The work on the schemes is proceeding, as quickly as design needs and statutory processes allow, to both the north and south of Wrexham. I hope that work on both schemes, involving an estimated combined cost of £42 million, can start in 1985 and that it will be completed satisfactorily.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current level of unemployment in Wales; what percentage increase this represents since the same time in 1981; and what are the corresponding figures for mid-Glamorgan.

On 14 October 1982 unemployment in Wales totalled 185,086, an increase of 8·8 per cent. since October 1981. The corresponding figure for mid-Glamorgan was 35,698, an increase of 10·4 per cent.

Will the Secretary of State concede that the true seriousness of the position is illustrated by the fact that in Wales as a whole there are 31 unemployed people for each vacancy? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in mid-Glamorgan there are 44 people unemployed for each vacancy? Is he further aware that in the Bargoed travel-to-work area in my constituency no fewer than 70 people are hunting for each vacant job? Does not that serious problem call for urgent and massive, not cosmetic, action? Has the Minister plans for such massive steps?

I welcome two members of the SDP to the House this afternoon, in the absence of five-sixths of the Welsh parliamentary Labour Party, to ask about unemployment. We allocated a record number of new factories in Wales last year. This year already the acreage is up on last year. We are almost achieving 1½ million sq. ft. of new allocated floor space.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Labour Members walked out in disgust at hearing the Secretary of State.

That is not a point of order.

Will the Minister examine the evidence submitted by the South Wales branch of the National Union of Mineworkers to the Select Committee? Is he aware that it stated that extra investment in the South Wales pits was imperative, particularly in the Phurnacite plant in my constituency? Is there any truth in the rumour that there may soon be redundancies at that plant?

That is a decision for the National Coal Board, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, because we made our position clear about that plant. The hon. Gentleman also knows that there is a conflict between the environmental and manufacturing considerations, which causes difficulties.

Whichever figures the Secretary of State cares to use—whether the actual numbers unemployed, the seasonally adjusted figures, the new fiddled figures or the percentages—he cannot dodge the fact that since he has been responsible for Wales unemployment in the Principality has more than doubled. Does that not prove his impotence, because, even in Pembroke docks, in his area, unemployment is 29·5 per cent. and the highest in Wales? Does it not also show that the Government are bankrupt of ideas and have no intention of reducing unemployment in Wales?

At least I do not go before the House and the country with a spurious promise that one can reduce unemployment to 1 million over a period. The right hon. Gentleman knows that he does not have even the beginnings of an idea of how that can be done.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps are being taken by his Department to establish pilot schemes in connection with the new technical education initiative.

As has already been announced, one of the pilot projects will be located in Wales. Initial discussions have taken place between the Welsh Office, the Manpower Services Commission, the Department of Education and Science and the Welsh Joint Education Committee. Other interests in Wales will be brought in as the planning of the scheme develops.

How many young people will be involved in the scheme and how will they be selected?

About 1,000 young people across the age range 14 to 18 will be involved in the Welsh project at any one time, once the scheme has built up over the first four years. Participation of suitable young people will be voluntary. The method of selection will be decided for each project and may vary between the localities.

When the Minister sets up the pilot scheme, will he remember that there are areas in addition to the south-east that are crying out for such a scheme?

I am quite sure that the scheme will prove so popular that there will be bids from local authorities all over the Principality.

Will the Minister examine the impact of locating MSC schemes in the further education sector on that sector's work? Is he aware that that sector is already hard-pressed? Will he bear in mind that, because the schemes are often temporary, local authorities are unable to make long-term provision for staffing and resources?

I shall examine that matter.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the remuneration of a clergyman serving in a team ministry; and if he will make a statement.

For the year from 1 April 1982 the recommended national minimum stipend for incumbents, including team rectors and vicars, is £5,500 per year together with housing free from rent, rates, repairs and insurance.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that, although there are some notable team ministries in Britain, they have sounded the death knell for the Church in many areas? Does he further agree that in those areas the priesthood has become so remote from the laity that there is no real or important meeting between the two? Will my hon. Friend try to persuade his friends to do something about that?

I am glad that my hon. Friend distinguished between the work of some team ministeries and others. In fairness, some of them are extremely effective. If my hon. Friend has specific cases in mind, perhaps I may inform him that the General Synod has set up a working group under the chairmanship of Dame Betty Ridley to inquire into these and related matters. I shall be happy to give my hon. Friend the address to which he can make representations.

Will my hon. Friend do his utmost to ensure that no clergyman of the Church of England, whether in a team ministry or not, is allowed to give up the cure of souls to join us here?

Any move in the direction that my hon. Friend foreshadowed would have to be approved by the House. No doubt the House would have the benefit of my hon. Friend's powerful advocacy on that occasion.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the estimated saving in 1982 in stamp duty on stock exchange transfers by the Commissioners as a result of the total exemption for charities introduced in the Finance Act 1982.

It is estimated that the saving to the Commissioners in the calendar year 1982 will be about £150,000.

Does my hon. Friend agree that that considerable saving is a good example of what the Chancellor and the Government have been able to do both for charities and the Church Commissioners in the past year?

I am obliged to my hon. Friend for that question. I agree. Although the figure can be only an estimate, the saving in a full year may rise to £180,000. The Church Commissioners are extremely appreciative.

asked the Secretary of State for Industry if he will now review the working of regional development grants under the Industry Act 1972 so as to improve their effectiveness in relation to the economic circumstances of counties such as Gwynedd.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry announced in the House on Tuesday 9 November an immediate end to the four-month deferment of regional development grant payments. Combined with a reduction in the average time taken to approve grant payments in Wales to about five weeks from the receipt of the application, this represents a substantial improvement in the effectiveness of the working of the scheme.

Is the Minister aware that unemployment in Gwynedd doubled from 4,000 to 8,000 between 1974 and 1979 and that it has doubled again to more than 17,000 since 1979? Is he further aware that during that time large parts of Gwynedd have lost development area status? Is he aware also that the level of unemployment in the Arfon and Dwyfor areas is higher than in many areas that enjoy special development area status? Does he agree that there is a case reviewing those areas and giving them back the special area status that they once enjoyed?

The hon. Gentleman will know that a review of various travel-to-work areas and their assisted area status was carried out in the summer and decisions were announced then. It was made clear that there would be no more major changes during the present Parliament unless there were exceptional reasons for them. I have reexamined the levels of unemployment in the areas to which the hon. Gentleman referred. I do so frequently. The hon. Gentleman will know that more than 90 per cent. of the working population in Wales are in assisted areas. That is the case in Gwynedd. I am satisfied that, in relation to other travel-to-work areas, the present gradings are correct.

What criteria are used to determine whether an area should have special development or other status? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there has been a reduction in a number of special development areas in Wales while unemployment has doubled? Is he further aware that there is 20 per cent. male umemployment in my area and yet it has been demoted from being a special development area to a development area?

The hon. Gentleman probably knows that there are a series of criteria. Unemployment and its relative level is one factor. The others are spelt out in the Industry Act 1972 and are often repeated in the House. Special development areas are always based on travel-to-work areas. There is one travel-to-work area in Gwynedd, for example, that enjoys special development area status. No other travel-to-work area in Gwynedd approaches the national average of special development area. That gives some idea of how we examine the relative levels of unemployment, but unemployment is not the only factor.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to make a statement about the remaining recommendations of the Rayner scrutiny on the Victoria and Albert museum and the Science museum.

I am still considering the remaining recommendations of the Rayner report in the light of the many comments received during and after the consultation period, but I hope to make a statement shortly.

Bearing in mind that Rayner reported as long ago as last May, will my right hon. Friend be more explicit about the timing of his statement? Will he also be more forthcoming about which recommendations he is likely to accept?

The Government immediately accepted the main recommendation of the Rayner report—that the Victoria and Albert and Science museums should be given a great deal of independence and should cease to be departmental museums. At the moment, the Bill is in another place. I hope to make a statement before Christmas. I hope that my hon. Friend will not make me anticipate what I shall say then. I hope to give the House an answer before then.

May I press the Minister a little further, as this is the last Arts Question Time before Christmas? Does the clause in the National Heritage Bill that allows museums to make charges without qualifications if they see fit mean that he has gone down the charges path? Would he not rather endorse the educational use of museums that is written into the Education Act 1964, which has recently been underpinned by the Select Committee's recommendations? Will the Minister endorse, as the Bill appears not to do, the wider managerial functions of trustees that Rayner suggested for the two new bodies that govern the museums? Will he include representatives in the museums—

Order. I made an appeal earlier for hon. Members to ask only one supplementary question. The House has honoured that appeal today by and large. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will now come to a conclusion.

Does the Minister agree that the trustees should include representatives of the work force within the museums?

I am surprised to hear that this is the last Arts Question Time before Christmas. The hon. Gentleman has information that is not available to me. With regard to charges, there has been no change since my answer at the end of May to the Rayner scrutiny report. The Government do not wish to compel museums to make charges but they will consider any proposals to that effect on their merits. We shall have plenty of opportunity, in due course to debate the Bill that is in another place. I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's views in mind when that happens.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what subjects he expects to discuss at his next meeting with the secretary general of the Arts Council.

I hold regular meetings with the chairman and secretary general at which a variety of matters of common interest are discussed.

Is the Minister aware that Kelmscott House, the home of William Morris, who was a great Socialist and artist, is being lost to the public and that it has been bought by a man who intends to turn William Morris' study into a kitchen? Will the right hon. Gentleman have an urgent meeting with the secretary general of the Arts Council to evolve a plan so that not only is that house restored to the public, but the achievements of Morris and his followers in literature and design are made available to the public through performance and exhibition?

I cannot believe that this is a matter for me. The hon. Gentleman should perhaps approach my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment about the house. I very much enjoyed attending, together with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, in whose constituency it took place, the reopening of the William Morris museum recently.

When my right hon. Friend next has discussions with the secretary general of the Arts Council, will he find out what sums are paid to the administrators of the Royal Opera House and the National Theatre? It is rumoured that the sums amount to £60,000 a year or more. Instead of bleating for more money from the taxpayer, is it not possible that they could run their affairs and their jobs more efficiently in the first place?

The Royal Opera House probably spends less money than any other international opera house in the world. I do not know the details of the salaries of the administrators. If the House in general wishes those details to be discovered, I would have no objection.

When he next meets representatives of the Arts Council, will the Minister discuss the provision of marketing expertise, especially for civic theatres, possibly by involving industry that sponsors and aids the arts?

Yes. That is an extremely good idea. The arts organisations vary considerably in marketing expertise. Some are extremely good at it. There are plenty of lessons to be learnt. I shall bear the hon. Gentleman's suggestion in mind.

Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the secretary general of the Arts Council the great concern that has arisen about the subsidy for the Royal Opera House since there are plans no longer to use a theatre that has been specially converted for its benefit in the city of Manchester?

Yes. That is a topic that I shall be discussing with the chairman and the secretary general of the Arts Council in view of the widespread concern that has been expressed. It is an extremely complicated matter. I do not believe that all the facts have yet emerged. It is, however, one of the main topics that I shall wish to discuss.

Is the Minister aware that he has had in his possession for some months a letter from the chairman of the Arts Council which stressed that, unless a minimum of £98·5 million was paid in grant this year, substantial cuts would have to be imposed on national companies and regional activities which, to some extent, the Arts Council has supported? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that a figure of 4 per cent. or thereabouts, rumoured as the amount to be given this year, would be disastrous for the national companies and the regional system?

The House must recognise that it is impossible to exempt the arts completely from financial constraints that are inevitable in the economy as a whole. I shall naturally do my best for the arts. Hon. Members will be interested to see the details of the grants when I am able to announce them.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement on his recent visit to Mexico for the conference of cultural Ministers.

I attended the UNESCO world conference on cultural policies in Mexico City in July. The contributions made by some countries were dominated by political considerations, but on the whole the conference provided a useful opportunity for discussing a variety of cultural questions.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there are strong arguments for maintaining collections of world-wide significance, not necessarily within the country of origin? In the case of the Elgin Marbles, would not the provision of replicas be the solution?

I agree with my hon. Friend that there should be a number of world-wide collections. The British delegation made it clear that it is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government to invite independent institutions to break up their collections. To do so would require legislation. I doubt if this could be got through Parliament. Should any country wish to have replicas, the Government would consider sympathetically any such approach.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he expects to announce the grant allocation for the Arts Council for the coming year.

As soon as possible.

I wish to return to two matters on which I have not received a satisfactory reply. [Interruption.] They relate to the same subject. Has the right hon. Gentleman replied to the chairman of the Arts Council? If so, what were the terms of that reply and will be publish the correspondence? The original letter was a public letter. What comments has the Minister to make on statements by two of four major national companies now operating in London to the effect that they are experiencing severe financial difficulties as a result of constraints under this Government?

I have not replied to the chairman of the Arts Council. The reply will be made when the Arts Council grants are announced in due course. I am not surprised that the hon. Gentleman has failed to follow up the original question that he put to me. So far as I can see, whenever the Labour Party has been in power, the Arts Council grants have not been announced much before February. I hope to announce them this year.

Does the Ministry of Defence still spend much more on military bands than the Arts Council spends on music projects?

If the hon. Gentleman will be good not enough to put down that question to my right hon. Friend, he will recieve an accurate answer. My guess is that the answer is "Yes".

Will the allocation take account especially of the problems of university museums, not least the Fitzwilliam museum at Cambridge, and also of the problems of regional orchestras?

It will certainly take account of regional orchestras. Regional museums will be dealt with through the rate support grant. This is a matter for local authorities. The Government do not fund directly university or regional museums. I am aware that my hon. Friend is especially concerned about university museums. This is mainly a matter for the University Grants Committee and the museums themselves. I am, however, aware of the problems to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention.

Will the Minister give a straightforward answer to a question already put to him? It seems likely that the Government will reduce the grant for next year to 4 per cent. If that is the case, the figure will be substantially lower than the inflation rate and arts councils will suffer. Will the Minister recognise that the Northern area, reputed, quite wrongly, to be grimy and uncultured, is the sort of area where there should be positive discrimination by way of an increase far above 4 per cent?

There is a question on the Order Paper about the Northern region, which will be reached in a moment. The rate of inflation next year is likely to be 5 per cent. The hon. Gentleman is guessing about the level of the Arts Council grant. We shall have to see. With the rate of inflation in the economy generally standing at 5 per cent., even the prospect that the hon. Gentleman holds out does not sound so disastrous as he maintains.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Northern region receives more in grant for the arts than any other region? Does he agree that comments about the region lacking in artistic support are bad for it and do no good at all?

My hon. Friend is right. The Arts Council funds events in the Northern region to the extent of about £2 million—

Peanuts.

The hon. Gentleman may take the view that it is peanuts. It is a great deal higher than the amount for other regions outside Scotland and Wales. Most people believe that Northern arts do very well.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been the total expenditure on the arts in the North-West region in the current financial year.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he is satisfied with the provision for the arts in the North-West.

The level of regional provision is a matter for the Arts Council. I understand that the allocation to the North-West for 1982–83 is just under £2·4 million, an increase of nearly 11 per cent. over the previous year.

I thank the Minister for his reply. I wish to refer again to the recent expressions of disgust and anger in the North-West over the statement by the Royal Opera House that it will not visit Manchester next year. Will the Minister undertake to have an urgent meeting on behalf of North-West Members or issue an ultimatum to those concerned to the effect that he will discontinue funds to the Arts Council?

No. I do not think I shall do that. I believe that the Greater Manchester council wishes to seek a meeting with the Arts Council about the Palace theatre, Manchester. If the council wishes to see me following that meeting, I shall be delighted. I can well understand the feelings that have arisen in the North-West. This is an extremely complicated matter that is difficult to resolve briefly at Question Time.

Is the Minister not aware that there is extreme anger and anxiety over the bad faith shown by the Royal Opera House in cancelling unilaterally the proposed tour to the North-West? Is he aware that substantial sums were spent in the Manchester area to bring the Palace theatre up to the standard required? It is unjustifiable to say, without any consultation, that this arrangement for next year has come to an end. Is the Minister aware that this action merits the strongest direct representation on his part to those concerned?

I am aware of the strong feelings that have been aroused in the North-West. If I had not been aware, the early-day motion, to which there are a large number of signatures, would have made me aware of them. The Royal Opera House estimated that it would have cost about £370,000 extra out of its grant to go to Manchester. It already has substantial financial problems. That is why the decision has been taken. However, as I have said, I shall be delighted to receive representations from the Greater Manchester council, should it wish to make them after it has seen the Arts Council.

I know that the Minister cannot answer for the Arts Council, but does he agree that it would be a complete scandal if the £1½ million invested in the Palace theatre were to be wasted and if the people were to be deprived of opera in the Manchester region purely because of a decision taken one year in advance, before the Royal Opera House could know what financial support it could get in the locality?

It is not as if the people in Manchester are being deprived of opera. There are plenty of regional opera companies. It is arguable whether it is better, both artistically and financially, to build up to greater heights the excellent touring opera companies, such as those of Welsh National Opera, Scottish Opera and Opera North rather than have occasional tours by Covent Garden, which cost larger sums of money. I am not sure that they do as much good as would the raising of the standards of regional opera companies. However, I understand the feelings of the House.