asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next intends to meet the chairman of the British Steel Corporation to discuss the future of steel making in Wales.

I have been in close touch with the chairman recently and will remain so.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the population of Wales is 5 per cent. less than of that of the United Kingdom, and that since 1979 we have sustained 33·4 per cent. of the total job losses of the United Kingdom steel industry, 42·4 per cent. of the loss of steel production and more than 70 per cent. of the loss of steel making capacity? When the right hon. Gentleman meets the chairman of the British Steel Corporation, will he point those facts out to him as evidence of the way in which the British steel industry, particularly in Wales, has been haemorrhaging away? Are the reports that appeared over the weekend about investment in the steel plant at Port Talbot accurate? [HON. MEMBERS: "Speech".] It would be a most necessary morale booster to the industry.

I hope that future questions will be briefer. Otherwise, we shall not even have half a dozen.

I do not want to anticipate the statement to be made by my right hon. Friend later today. We have some of the most efficient and competitive steel plants in the country. The Oppostition's anxiety about the closure of major steel making plants has been strange in recent weeks. I know of no such proposals. The hon. Gentleman is right to emphasise the importance of on-going investment. I shall be happy to stand by the Government's record on that when all the information is available in the corporate plan.

Was it the Minister or a member of his staff who briefed the Western Mail recently to the effect that a new hot mill for Port Talbot would be announced and claimed personal credit for the Minister's involvement in all meetings about steel over the past couple of months—but couple of months only? If the leak is true, why can there be no announcement, or are the Government still waiting for EC approval for the new mill at Port Talbot?

The one person who clearly cannot claim any credit is the right hon. and learned Gentleman, from whom we have not heard a squeak about new investment in recent weeks. It is clearly true that investment and modernisation of steel plants is of the greatest importance. There is, as the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, a specific proposal from the British Steel Corporation for the modernisation of the hot mill at Port Talbot. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had better await the statement later today for the details.

Has the Secretary of State noted the chairman's oft-repeated remark to the effect that the industry's present predicament is due to the loss of home markets? If he has, why does he not, urge upon his colleagues the need to provide a measure of protection for some of our vital industries, particularly the car industry, because if that were to happen the fortunes of the steel industry would be changed overnight?

The chairman has repeatedly made it clear that our competitiveness in the market generally at home and abroad is what is important in the British steel industry. I always find it extraordinary to hear the hon. Gentleman urging us to impose import restrictions, because I know that at least a dozen major international companies in his constituency depend on export business for a large share of the employment that they provide. I could list those companies if the hon. Gentleman is so ignorant that he does not know of them.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, far from protectionism saving jobs, the protection of certain elements of our industry has made the British Steel Corporation less competitive, and therefore less able to preserve jobs in the industry and down market in the engineering industry?

There is no doubt that the future of this industry, as of other industries, depends upon competitiveness. Nothing could be more disastrous to the British motor car industry, or other steel users, than if our steel industry were protected in such a way that industrial costs were raised generally.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest available unemployment figures expressed numerically and as a percentage in the Lampeter/Llandyssul and the Cardigan travel-to-work areas; and how they compare with those for the same month in 1979.

On 11 November 1982 the figures were 1,225 or 21·2 per cent. and 684 or 19 per cent. respectively. In November 1979 the number of registrants unemployed was 750 or 13·4 per cent. and 500 or 13·6 per cent. respectively.

In the light of those figures, which emphasise the chronic nature of unemployment in the area, when the right hon. Gentleman announces the roads programme in early 1983 can we expect a substantial investment to improve the roads between the Teifi valley and the A40 and A48 in South Wales, to relieve this much beleaguered area?

I cannot anticipate any specific road improvements to that part of the hon. Gentleman's constituency. He will know that the major improvements to the road link along the M4 west into west Wales are already of considerable benefit to that part of Wales as well as to the other areas that are affected.

Why, during the past 10 years, have successive Governments failed to solve the unemployment problem in the Teifi valley?

Particular problems attach to a rural area of this kind, but the problems in this instance are by no means exceptional and do not compare unfavourably with many others, particularly those in industrial areas, where the numbers are very much greater. The DBRW has an energetic programme in the area, and its new grant scheme will help. In addition, a number of advance factories are available. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be the first to agree that the DBRW is doing good and constructive work and is helping to tackle the problems of mid-Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Wales Tourist Board; and whether changes in future tourism policy were discussed.

I meet the chairman regularly. The last occasion was on 10 December when, together with members of the board, we discussed a range of issues, including the board's priorities for 1983–84.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that sufficient Government funding for tourism will be available in the coming year to meet the need?

At the meeting on 10 December I pointed out to the board that the developments that have taken place in the urban programme under the UDG scheme mean that there has been a substantial increase in available resources for the tourist industry. I cannot anticipate exactly which applications will be accepted under the UDG scheme, but if a number of them are, there could be a substantial proportionate increase in the total finance available for the tourist industry in Wales.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that the contribution that can be made by tourism in many parts of Wales is significantly greater than the contribution that can be made by manufacturing industry? Is there not still a wide disparity between the sums available for tourist activities and those available for manufacturing industry, and is not that a gross distortion of the needs of certain rural areas?

The financial support and other arrangements for the tourist industry are currently being reviewed. However, specific applications before me at present illustrate that the total financial package available for specific projects can be very substantial indeed.

Exactly what role has the right hon. Gentleman's Department played in this review? Has there been an independent assessment within his Department of the role of the Wales Tourist Board, particularly overseas, or has that been subsumed by the review that has been undertaken by the Department of Trade?

The two things are taking place in parallel. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State is working closely with the Under-Secretary of State for Trade on the overall review. I have maintained discussions with the Wales Tourist Board about the strategy document that it is preparing. It hopes to submit a final version of that document, which will be the basis for discussion, early in the new year.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the admirable success of the Wales Tourist Board in improving the image of Wales as a tourist destination has to some extent been at the expense of cheaper family holidays at the bottom end of the market? Will he encourage the board not to forget that many hundreds of thousands of families like to take a cheap holiday and would like facilities at the bottom end to be improved with the assistance of the tourist board?

That is absolutely right. Some of the recent improvement schemes sponsored by the tourist board in some of our older seaside resorts have precisely that object in mind, and the opening of the new tourist office in London will be an added spur to encourage that kind of tourism in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest estimated date for the completion of dual carriageways on the A55 from the English border to Holyhead.

It is my hope that, subject to the satisfactory completion of all statutory procedures, the dual carriageway A55 can be completed from the English border to its termination at Bangor by the end of the decade. Our proposals for improvements to the A5 in Anglesey will be announced in the next edition of "Roads in Wales", which will be published in the new year.

As my hon. Friend is aware, my hon. Friend the Member for Anglesey (Mr. Best) has been pressing hard for the improvement of the A5. As to the A55, is he aware that this Administration will be remembered as the one who took the decision over which previous Administrations dithered, particularly with regard to the Hollywell bypass and the Conwy crossing?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We have made real and visible progress towards our goal. About 23 km of the 87 km route between Chester and Bangor have already been completed to dual-carriageway standard, and 24 km are currently under construction. However, a portion of the 23 km that are now completed was prepared by the previous Administration.

When this road is operational in 1990, will the Minister ensure that access from the south is also improved—in other words, the sections of the A470 that have not been upgraded between Blaena Ffestiniog and Betws-y-Coed?

I shall take the hon. Gentleman's point into consideration and write to him.

Will the Minister reject the suggestion that there has been dithering over the improvement of the A55? I immediately accept the Minister's commendation. As to the Conwy crossing, does he agree that every decision affecting the east and west was made but that there was a need for a further and proper inquiry before a Bill could be presented to Parliament? That has now been done, and I compliment the Secretary of State on doing it.

I do not wish to comment on the dithering nature of the previous Administration. I merely note that the decision on the Conwy tunnel was made entirely by my right hon. Friend.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons were in full-time employment in Wales in May 1979 and how many at the latest available date.

Figures based on the census of employees in employment indicate 860,000 in June 1979 and 724,000 in June 1982, but other surveys suggest that these do not give a full picture of the employment situation.

Surely those figures are on a comparable basis. Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that at the time when he assumed office in May 1979 the number of employees in employment in Wales was at an all-time high, whereas at present it is at an all-time low since records were begun on that basis in 1948?

There is increasing evidence that the quarterly series is not giving a full picture of what is happening. The labour force survey and the 1981 census data suggest that the registration of new small businesses and the numbers of self-employed have not been recorded properly. It is clear that the unemployment figures and the numbers in employment tell the same story—that we are at present suffering severely from the recession.

As Wales has for too long been dependent on old, basic industries such as steel, coal and agriculture, what is the Secretary of State doing to persuade the Welsh Development Agency to undertake direct entrepreneurial activities to introduce new industry, particularly advanced technology industry, into Wales?

I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman's basic assessment, and he will know that we have had considerable success in getting the new factories that we have been building occupied by some of the newer industries. That is important for the future. He will also know that under its former chairman the Welsh Development Agency started reviewing its strategy and that at one stage of its development it launched its new Hafren Investment Company. The new chairman, who has only just taken over, is obviously taking a fresh look at the strategy and is having detailed discussions about it with me.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that most of the people I meet in Wales want the Government to make much greater efforts than they are making to bring down unemployment? Is he also aware that those people have no confidence whatever in the policies put forward by either of the Opposition parties, because they will not bring down unemployment?

Clearly, a policy based on a substantial devaluation and major expenditure programmes, without an adequate incomes policy, would lead to high inflation and, later, to high unemployment.

Are not the figures that the right hon. Gentleman has given very disturbing for everyone who lives in Wales? Why is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to remain the chief apologist for the deindustrialisation of Wales?

Of course the figures are disturbing, but to talk of deindustrialisation, bearing in mind that there has been an all-time record number of factory allocations and a rapid build-up of new business, shows a complete failure to understand what is happening. The hon. Gentleman need only look at the Deeside industrial estate to see that what he says is absolute nonsense.

Does the Secretary of State accept that, whatever method of counting is used, the total number of people in employment in 1978, compared with the similar figure for 1982, shows a drop of about 60,000 to 70,000, and that that implies that those 60,000 to 70,000 people have either left Wales or have dropped out of economic activity? Should not that figure be added to the increase in unemployment since this Government came to office? Will he confirm that?

Information arising from the labour force survey and the 1981 census leads us to think that there are probably about 800,000 people in employment in the United Kingdom as a whole who are not included in the figures based on the census of employees to which I referred. If a reasonable proportion of that number is applied to Wales—the kind of proportion that one generally gets in these matters—the gap is not that described by the hon. Member.

Does the Secretary of State agree that a series of parliamentary answers and the statistics published by the Department of Employment show, first, that the number of people in employment in Wales rose by 30,000 comparing 1974 with 1979, and, secondly, that that figure has fallen by 145,000 since the right hon. Gentleman became responsible for Wales? Does that not show that he has succeeded in destroying more jobs in Wales than were created by 20 years of regional policies? Instead of listing the number of new jobs, will he publish a balance sheet showing how many jobs he has destroyed and how many jobs he has really created?

I do not believe that the people of Wales are in the least impressed by statements such as the one just made by the right hon. Gentleman, who suggests that the present problems are entirely the result of policies of this Government, or have occurred regardless of the world recession, or of the disastrous policies that were pursued by previous Governments—which have destroyed our industrial competitiveness—or the increases in wage costs which the right hon. Gentleman encouraged and set in train.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the state of hill farming in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

While we are always seeking improvements, I am pleased to say that in 1981–82 trends in costs and prices suggest that incomes on hill and upland farms in Wales rose substantially in real terms, compared with the previous two years. I expect a further increase in 1982–83.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that an application has been made to the Commission in Brussels to extend the less favoured areas in Wales? When does he hope to implement the scheme?

Yes, Sir. A submission has been made. I cannot forecast how long it will take to complete our discussions with the Commission.

Is my right hon. Friend confident that the British Government will be prepared to match the sums that may be available from the European Commission in payment for this scheme?

Clearly, we have put in a submission because we believe that we need to help marginal land areas. When we have the Commission's conclusions, we shall reach our decisions on public expenditure in the normal way.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his reply to the right hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Jones) on 22 November, Official Report, c. 567, what proportion of the National Coal Board's investment was in the Welsh coalfields.

In broad terms, the Welsh share of investment was about 5 per cent.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the NUM has called a strike for 17 January because of the lack of capital investment and the general rundown and threat of pit closures? What, if anything, does he intend to do to try to avoid that strike? When will he take a stand on behalf of the Welsh coalfields similar to that taken by his Cabinet colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland on behalf of the steel industry?

Certainly none of my colleagues is standing up to support a substantial drain on resources from loss-making industries. We have a problem, which is well understood, and it goes back a long time in Wales. Last year 40 per cent. of the National Coal Board's loss came from the Welsh field. In the first six months of this year the field lost £66 million, which is about £17 per tonne of coal. Clearly, it must be for the NCB to use the record resources given to it for capital investment to create a modern and effective coal industry in the way that it thinks fit.

Can my right hon. Friend fathom out how a strike in the South Wales coalfield could possibly convince anyone to put any more money into it?

A strike would be disastrous for the South Wales coalfield, as strikes of that nature always are. This Government committed £722 million for coal investment last year, and they have given the industry nearly £2 billion for deep mining investment. That is nearly double the investment that was made during the last three years of the Labour Administration. It is for the NCB to decide how to make the most productive use of that investment.

Does the Secretary of State realise that he should be in the Cabinet representing Welsh interests? Does he appreciate the strong feeling in Wales that he is an apologist for Thatcherite policies, instead of defending the interests of jobs in Wales? Will he meet the NCB and ensure that a greater share of the investment in the coal industry in Britain goes to the Welsh coalfields, including the anthracite pits, the coking pits, and the Phurnacite plant in my constituency?

I do not consider that I am defending Welsh interests in defending a continuing loss of £66 million in a half-year. It is my job to encourage the NCB to take the measures that it believes are right to improve the productivity and efficiency of the coal industry in Wales, as elsewhere.

Is it not a fact that coal industry jobs in Wales, like coal industry jobs elsewhere in the United Kingdom, depend on concentrating resources on those pits that can be made profitable and competitve?

Clearly, if the industry were not likely to lose about £125 million in the present year in Wales there would be much more money available for investment. We must go down the twin roads of investing and reducing losses. Inevitably, that will mean some closures of the older and more difficult pits in Wales, as elsewhere.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of the reasons for the better productivity in Welsh pits has been the capital investment in these areas? Will he confirm that there has been a real capital investment cut during the past three years in the Welsh coalfields of 40 per cent? Is he aware that that is responsible for the deep sense of frustration now felt in Welsh coalfields?

I understand the anxieties and frustration, but the Welsh share of investment at present is about £33 million, and substantial modernisation is going on. It must be for the National Coal Board to decide where it can make the best use of the record sums that this Government have made available for coal investment.

May I encourage the Minister to look to the future and support the need for substantial investment in new sources of coal production in South Wales as a means of ensuring that, when natural gas supplies run out, there will be adequate coal production to take up the need for gas? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that such a provision should be made now rather than left until we are in a crisis?

As the Government have doubled the capital resources available to the coal industry they are clearly guaranteeing it a sound future—if it is not destroyed or disrupted by unnecessary strikes. I do not intend to dictate to the NCB where it should place that investment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest figure of the number of males unemployed in Newport, Gwent; and what percentage of the male working population in Newport this represents.

On 11 November male unemployment in the Newport travel-to-work area totalled 10,224, or 18·0 per cent.

Does the Minister appreciate that that figure of 18 per cent. compares with the official figure of 7·1 per cent. in May 1979—an increase of over two and a half times for Newport? Is that not a catastrophic indictment of the Government's policies and will not Saatchi and Saatchi have a lot of explaining to do at the next general election?

The male unemployment problem is severe in this area, as elsewhere. However, it must be said that it is a lot less severe than in some other areas. The prospects for Gwent are extremely good, not least because there has been a major capital programme of factory building as well as the arrival of large new concerns such as Mitel, close to the hon. Gentleman's constituency, and the Inmos project, which I am confident will produce a large increase in employment in the coming months.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what total unemployment has risen in the county of Clwyd and in Wales since May 1979.

Between May 1979 and November 1982 the number of unemployed claimants in Wales increased by 95,203. In Clwyd between May 1979 and October 1982 the number of registered unemployed increased by 13,779. Between October 1982, when the new basis of count was introduced, and November 1982 the number of unemployed claimants increased by 260.

What is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to do to help my constituents at Courtauld's Deeside mill in Flint who will start the new year on the dole? Does the Secretary of State know that the Government have allowed more than £260 million worth of man-made fibres to enter Britain? Can we have some action rather than bluster?

I well appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern about that plant. My Department is in close touch with Courtauld's management about the matter. I understand that an urgent appraisal of the position is currently being undertaken in the light of the plant's order book and it would not be helpful for me to comment further on the immediate outlook until that appraisal is completed. Deeside is a special development area. I recently announced that Flint is to be designated as the site of the second enterprise zone in Wales. Every possible assistance will be given to any new investment project undertaken by Courtauld's or any other company in that area.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Clwyd, which once had the lowest rate of unemployment, and now has the highest, has a special problem, which derives largely from its past overdependence on certain basic industries, notably steel, and that it was the failure of the Labour Government to deal with the problems arising from the closure of steel plants in good time that has caused this problem to arise in an acute form at the worst possible moment?

It is because we are moving away from that over-dependence that I welcome the variety of projects coming to the area, including the BICC/Corning fibre optics project, Squibb Surgicare, health care manufacturers, Kimberley Clarke, paper tissues, Pendy Plastics and Deeside Titanium. That is a measure of the variety of new industry in the area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to the answer of 20 October, c. 135, whether he is yet in a position to make a statement on the determination of the dispute between the Welsh water authority and the Severn-Trent water authority concerning the level of payment which should have been made by the latter authority in the financial year 1982–83 for water which it obtains from Wales.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and I issued our decision on this matter on Monday 13 December 1982.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the complete dismay that is felt in Wales at the failure of his Department, after 15 months of dithering, to obtain a settlement to help Welsh water ratepayers? Is he aware that the implication of that is that there will be an increase of 15p on the water rates next year? How, in all conscience, can he allow the Welsh water authority to go on with its work when he does not stand up and defend it? As he has completely failed to defend the interests of Wales, should he not now resign?

I am not clear whether the hon. Gentleman stands by his party's claim that the Welsh water authority should charge £44 million for the water that is exported to Severn-Trent, when the Welsh water authority believes that the most it can possibly charge, without provoking alternative investment by Severn-Trent, is £2½ million. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if the full claim were met it would make a difference of about £1 on the average £79 water rate bill in Wales? That is the cost of about one and a half pints of beer.

Does the Secretary of State's decision not even to allow the modest claim of the Welsh water authority to increase its charges to Severn-Trent, coupled with the Government's decision to abolish the Water Charges Equalisation Act 1977, mean that the Government have abandoned all attempts to bring the Welsh water authority's charges more into line with the average charge throughout England and Wales? Does it mean that as long as we have a Tory Government there will never he a fair deal for Welsh domestic water consumers?

It means that we have rejected the proposition that the Welsh water authority should be allowed to charge what it could get away with without forcing a major capital investment to duplicate existing resources. The importance of the matter should not be exaggerated when, at the most, we are talking about a difference of about £2 million on running costs of over £150 million. As I say, the difference on the average water ratepayer's bill is the cost of one and a half pints of not very good beer.

In a long-term assessment of the problem will my right hon. Friend reflect that for many important public services—electricity, postal, and so on—the charges are uniform throughout the United Kingdom? Is there any valid reason why there should be this wide disparity in water charges in different parts of the United Kingdom?

It is possible to pursue that argument but, equally, the charge to the Welsh ratepayer for sewage disposal might be increased to match that of his English compatriot and the average domestic rate bill would be considerably higher than it is at present. The Welsh ratepayer pays a much lower rate bill than his English compatriot.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the level of expenditure on house renovation grants in the first six months of the current year; and how this figure compares with the figure for the first six months of last year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much has been spent on house renovation grants in Wales in the first half of the current financial year; what were the figures for the previous three years; and if he will make a statement.

Expenditure on house renovation grants, in the first half of 1982–83 was £13·9 million compared with £6·7 million in the first half of the last financial year. Expenditure in the whole of 1981–82 was £17·2 million, in 1980·81 £14·0 million and in 1979–80 £13·7 million. If, as I expect, the present trend continues, total expenditure in this financial year is likely to exceed £30 million. Therefore, it is clear that the 90 per cent. grant rate which now applies to intermediate and repair grants is having a dramatic effect, which is why we recently extended this measure for the whole of the next financial year. We have introduced special arrangements in this and the next financial year which will help all Welsh local authorities to meet the demand for grants, the need for which is amply illustrated in the Welsh house condition survey published last month.

I welcome the doubling of expenditure in the first six months of the current year compared with the previous year. May I ask what further steps my hon. Friend intends to take in view of the findings of the latest house condition survey?

Some aspects of the survey, such as the fall in the number of houses lacking basic amenities, are encouraging. However, as my hon. Friend suggests, there is a great deal still to be done. As I said, we have extended the period of the 90 per cent. repair and intermediate grants to 1984. We have also started the enveloping initiative, which should provide local authorities with a fast and direct means of getting to grips with the problem of the decaying housing stock. The poor condition of the houses in which so many old-age pensioners live is causing us a great deal of concern, and we are considering ways of helping them more effectively.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great importance that Cardiff attaches to such renovation grants? Many houses that were built 70 or 90 years ago have reached the point at which if they are not saved they will fall into complete disrepair. What co-operation is my hon. Friend getting from local authorities in the Principality?

I urge all local authorities to meet the demand for grants with all the vigour that they possess. Some councils are refusing to issue the necessary application forms, or are making difficulties about them. I condemn them, as well as those that limit the availability of grants or the percentages available for the various categories of grant. It is vital that all those who apply for grants should be considered.

When making allocations to local authorities for housing improvement grants, does the Minister take into account the number of unfit dwellings and the number of those that lack one or more basic amenities in each local authority area?

Of course such matters are taken into account. In addition, a local authority's allocation of those grants is taken into account when deciding the future allocation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of Welsh industry to discuss the state of Welsh manufacturing industry.

I and my hon. Friends frequently meet representatives of industry to discuss a wide range of matters.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the need—which we all accept, and to which he referred—for high productivity in manufacturing industry? Given that the most immediate and effective way of achieving high productivity is to produce to full capacity, what are the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues doing to stimulate demand so that Welsh manufacturers can produce to capacity?

There is no shortage of demand at present. All the figures for the pre-Christmas period show that there is a major upturn in retail demand. One of the problems is whether our industry can compete effectively with imports and retain a proper share of the market.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the performance of secondary school pupils aged 15 years in science and mathematics; and if he will make a statement.

Clearly there is cause for concern, and I fully recognise this, although we must be careful to keep matters in perspective. A great deal of work is going on at both local and national level to encourage improvements in levels of performance.

As the recently published report of the assessment of performance unit confirms that school pupils in Wales are doing worse in science and mathematics at 15 than they were at 11, is it not time for an independent inquiry into the way in which Welsh secondary schools teach mathematics and science?

It is always an attractive proposition to hold an inquiry. However, we have considerable evidence about the teaching of mathematics and science and we do not want to have to wait for a further inquiry. Meanwhile, Her Majesty's Inspectorate is promoting the message of the Cockcroft report. This year we published a consultative document on science education in schools, and we are analysing the response. We must not be complacent, but we must remember that in the past two years there has been an improvement in the achievements of Welsh pupils taking GCE mathematics at O-level.

What proportion of the teachers who entered the profession between 1965 and 1975 had O-level mathematics?

I cannot give the figures for that. Unfortunately, a number of teachers joined the profession without O-level mathematics when there was a shortage of teachers' and they subsequently taught mathematics. We have put that right and made a mathematics qualification essential for entrance to the teaching profession.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the reorganisation of the Welsh water authority.

Since the reorganisation I have had no formal representations about the organisation of the authority as such. I have, however, received some representations about membership of the local consumer advisory committees.

Is it not a fact that all the local authority associations have complained about the Water Bill now in Committee and that opposition has also come from local authorities in Wales? In view of the deep anxiety about the water charges problem in Wales, what will the Government do to replace the Water Charges Equalisation Act 1977 which is being removed by the Bill?

We would expect to get representations from the local authority associations about the Bill, because one of its aims, as the hon. Gentleman knows, is largely to remove local authority representation from the water authorities themselves on to local advisory committees, where we believe the local authorities are best placed to represent their electorate. With regard to charging, the aim of the Water Bill is to create more efficient authorities. That efficiency, more than anything, will reduce charges.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what amount and percentage increase there has been in the recommended national minimum stipend for incumbents between April 1979 and April 1982.

Between April 1979 and April 1982 the recommended national minimum stipend for incumbents increased by £2,200 to £5,500 per annum. This represents an increase of 66⅔ per cent.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that that increase is well above the rate of inflation during the comparable period? If so, does that not represent a considerable achievement? Does my hon. Friend agree that although, by any standard, £5,500 is a low stipend, it is essential that the Church of England should encourage more giving from its members and should have sensible investment policies? That is the best long-term help that can be given to such incumbents.

It must be remembered—as my hon. Friend has implied—that housing free from any outgoings must be added to that sum, which probably represents about £3,000 per annum. During the years in question there was a 49 per cent. increase in the retail price index, which means that in real terms the increase was 11 per cent.

Will my hon. Friend confirm that incumbents do not have set working hours like those working in other professions, and are not paid overtime?

Yes, Sir. In that sense, they are like Members of Parliament.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many clergymen are employed in group ministry work.

Up to 30 September 1982, 79 group ministries, comprising 297 benefices, had been established by schemes under the Pastoral Measure 1968. Although I cannot say precisely, there are likely to be some 300 clergymen holding benefices within group ministries.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that in some group ministries people are denied access to members of the clergy and to church services, because of the distance involved? Is my hon. Friend aware that in the Hereford diocese there is a group ministry containing at least 14 former parishes and that there are similarly large group ministry areas in Lincolnshire?

I cannot comment on an individual case in the diocese of Hereford. However, I am sure that the bishop of the diocese would be only too glad to help my hon. Friend if he so wished. Far fewer men serve the Church in this way and that means that—group ministry or not—in some far-flung country parishes parishioners sometimes have to travel a considerable way to attend a service.

Although one accepts that, does my hon. Friend agree that there is considerable disquiet in the Church of England about the apparent alacrity with which many bishops introduce such groups? Does my hon. Friend agree that there is still a role for elderly clergymen? Is it not a pity that the Church should insist on retirement at 70?

I should not want to go back on the arrangements for retirement. I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was in the House on 22 November when I reminded my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) that an inquiry is afoot into the effectiveness of team ministries. If he had any evidence to give, I am sure that it would be extremely welcome.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what will be the level of support for the Arts Council for the coming year; and what percentage increase over the current figure this represents.

Subject to parliamentary approval, the grant to the Arts Council for 1983–84 will be £92 million. This is within the total provision for arts and libraries announced in the Chancellor's autumn statement. In addition, £5 million supplementary provision will be taken during the present financial year to enable the council to reduce deficits and contribute towards other expenditure currently being incurred by many performing arts companies. This will be found from within the Contingency Reserve. I propose also to have a special financial scrutiny of the operations of one or more major companies. The grant for 1983–84 will represent an increase of 7 per cent. on 1982–83.

While 7 per cent. is an improvement on the 4 per cent. that the Minister was offered, is he aware that that is considerably less than the 14 per cent. that the Arts Council said it needed to maintain current operations? Will he recommend to the Arts Council that the cuts which there may have to be should fall on the national companies, in which he now seems to be taking a hand, or on the already impoverished local areas, or is there to be general equality of misery?

I am utterly certain that the hon. Gentleman's forecast will be proved to be wholly unfounded. What he fails to take into account is that I have also announced an additional £5 million this year, and those two taken together will remove all those problems.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the two figures add up to £97 million, which is about £1 million less than the Arts Council asked for when it pitched its request a short time ago? Will he, therefore, accept the thanks of those who are concerned about the future of the arts in this country for a valiant fight put up in difficult times? Will he also accept that there are still difficult times ahead and that this must merely be seen as a good instalment of a rather difficult story?

Of course problems lie ahead, but I am entitled to claim on the evidence so far submitted to me that the major problems that so many arts organisations told me would exist next year no longer need to be feared.

Will the Minister inform the Arts Council and those London-based organisations that are in receipt of Arts Council money that many hon. Members who represent the regions will closely scrutinise the behaviour of those organisations to ensure that they realise that the money that they receive is national tax money and that they expect from them a national performance, including activity in the regions?

Yes, most certainly. It has been an increasing trend in recent years for the Arts Council grant to be switched more towards the regions. I am sure that that will continue to be the trend.

The Minister will be aware that a number of the theatres that are threatened with closure at present have been carrying out valuable experimental work. How many of those will the additional £5 million rescue and allow to continue? Will his request to the Arts Council to examine the way in which resources are spent by some of the large spenders include the manager who recently announced that unless he had another £1 million he would close down the company?

I am not sure at the moment that I know what the hon. Lady is referring to. With regard to the first part of her question, it is for the Arts Council to make the allocations when it considers the detailed grant. All I am saying is that a great many of the exaggerated fears that have been expressed over recent months will not be brought to fruition.

Will my right hon. Friend accept the congratulations of Conservative Members on getting as much money for the arts as he has been able to prise out of the Treasury? Will he confirm that this will mean that regional activities, particularly those in the South-West, will be able to continue at the same level as has been enjoyed during the past 12 months? That is what affects most of the people who do not live in London.

I cannot comment on individual operations, but in general the answer to my hon. Friend's question is "Yes".

Does the Minister understand the agonising uncertainty that afflicts provincial theatres such as the Haymarket and the Phoenix theatres in Leicester, when they do not know from year to year what level of grant they will receive? As part of his Christmas era of goodwill, will he give an undertaking that the Arts Council grants will be continued to provincial theatres in future years so that the people who work in them so well can have a feeling of certainty for the future?

It is jolly nice of the hon. and learned Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner) to assume that I shall be at the Dispatch Box for many more years. Perhaps he is right. I am trying to remove a great deal of the agonising uncertainty by announcing this figure today.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what discussions he has had regarding the level of financial support for the arts in the Eastern region.

Funding is primarily a matter for the Arts Council, which is currently inquiring into the needs of and provisions for the arts in the Eastern region.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with me, as a fellow Eastern region Member of Parliament, that, despite his excellent announcement, there is possibly a danger of some under-funding in the Eastern region as a consequence of a great increase in population in that area? Does he further agree that that is not, perhaps, taken into account when working out the amount of money for which the region is eligible?

Arts Council subsidies have never been calculated on the basis of the size of population in a region. They are related to the arts resources in any one particular area. That is the basis on which they have been calculated for all regions. However, my hon. Friend and many other hon. Members have made this point to me, which is one of the many reasons why the Arts Council is holding a special inquiry into the funds for the Eastern region.

Bearing in mind that the Eastern region receives only one-third of the amount of Arts Council subsidy that London receives, even after excluding the national companies, according to Mr. Hutchinson's recent report, will the Minister say whether any of the £5 million once-and-for-all figure that he announced today will be used to rectify this imbalance?

We shall have to await the Arts Council's detailed allocation of the money. The Arts Council is taking the problems of the Eastern region seriously and a special inquiry is going on.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for the reasoned explanation that he recently gave me of the position of the Eastern Region Arts Association. Does he accept that I should be still more grateful if he could give sympathetic consideration to ameliorating its relatively disadvantageous position? Does he appreciate that this would bring great pleasure to the association and not least to its president, my eminent friend and constituent Henry Moore?

I should be delighted to give any pleasure I could to Mr. Henry Moore. One of the problems in the Eastern region has been the relatively low level of contribution by some local authorities. Local authorities must spend within their means, but they should examine some of the contributions that they have made to the association.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he will pay an official visit to the National Film School.

Yes, Sir. I have already paid one visit to the National Film School and would be delighted to do so again.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Has he yet had time to consider the recent report of the Select Committee on Education, Science and the Arts on the future of the film industry? Does he agree that as the majority of the graduates from the National Film School go to work in television we should now be looking for a greater contribution from television for the financing of the school?

I have studied the recent Select Committee report on many aspects of the arts. The Government will make a considered reply to it in the spring. With regard to my hon. Friend's specific point, that is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary but I shall ensure that he is aware of my hon. Friend's view on this topic.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has approved the appointment of the next secretary general of the Arts Council.

No appointment has yet been made.

When does my right hon. Friend hope to be able to make an announcement? Does he deplore all the leaks that have taken place following applications for the post?

I deplore the leaks, but I have learnt that leaks happen in every walk of life. Alas, they seem to be on the increase rather than the decrease. The announcement of the appointment is entirely for the Arts Council.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what proportion of the Arts Council budget is spent in Greater London.

Excluding the grants to the London-based national companies and the running costs of the galleries operated direct by the Arts Council, the proportion of the council's budget spent on the arts in London was 8·5 per cent. of the total in 1981–82.

Will my right hon. Friend remind the Arts Council, when it is administering the increase, with which we are all delighted following his announcement, always to remember that London is a major magnet for tourists visiting Britain from overseas and that anything that is spent in this area helps the national economy?

Yes, I agree with that. However, I must remind my hon. Friend, as others have, that the national companies themselves provide an enormous attraction to tourists and lead to a considerable amount of expenditure in London. I think that there will be general support in the House for the continuance of the work of the national institutions.