asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reduction, in percentage terms, would have to be made in expenditure by district and regional councils, respectively, if they adhered to the guidelines for 1983–84 as against the budgets of 1982–83 adjusted for inflation on the basis assumed for the current rate support grant settlement but allowing no increase in spending.

As the settlement is in cash, its implications for the level of services provided by local authorities will depend on the rate of inflation. Provision in the 1983–84 rate support grant settlement for relevant current expenditure is 9 per cent. more than in the 1982–83 settlement.

Does the Secretary of State accept that COSLA's figures show that if we assume budgets at a standstill level and take the basis of inflation on which the rate support grant was calculated, it means a reduction in expenditure of 7·2 per cent. for regions and 11·8 per cent. for districts? Will there not be severe and savage cuts in services if these artificial guidelines are to be met?

What is artificial is that the hon. Gentleman is not comparing like with like. Comparing the settlement of last year with the settlement for this year, there is an increase of 9 per cent. in what the Government have provided. By any terms that is reasonable.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Lothian ratepayers are looking for a further substantial reduction in their rates this year, based on the expenditure plans of the Conservative group on Lothian council? Will my right hon. Friend assure ratepayers that their aspirations will be protected, if necessary by the legislative powers available to him, and that spending in the Lothian region will be kept within reasonable, not excessive, bounds?

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend's feelings about the matter. Before taking selective action I should have to be satisfied that planned expenditure was excessive and unreasonable, after taking into account the statutory criteria, which include the burden on ratepayers, to which my hon. Friend referred.

I understand from the Government's expenditure plans that they expect local government expenditure in 1983–84 to exceed the guidelines and are making available in extra £1·3 billion in that year. By how much do the Government expect the guidelines to be exceeded in real, not percentage, terms?

I hope that local authority spending will be brought under better control this year and be much nearer to the guidelines, and I gave £120 million extra to what the settlement would have been to make it easier for them.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the only consequence of further cutting back the expenditure of local councils will be to reduce further the services for the weakest people in the community and to drive even more people out of work? If this is all part of the Prime Minister's belief in the Victorian ethic, when shall we see the return of the workhouse?

That sounds grand until one bears in mind that local authorities have not yet succeeded in making any real reduction in spending. Local government expenditure in 1981–82 at constant prices was still above the level of 1977–78. I do not recall the hon. Gentleman then saying that services were cut to the bone.

Is not education the largest single item in a local authority's budget? As school rolls are falling, should not local authorities, particularly regional councils, have substantially more to spend this year than in any of the years of the Labour Government?

Even with falling school rolls we are still able, in the rate support grant settlements, to allow for better teacher-pupil ratios than before.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will give financial help to retain manufacturing jobs in Dundee.

The Government are providing massive financial help for Dundee. The city is part of a special development area attracting the highest rates of grant for industrial development, and the proposed Tayside enterprise zone may include sites in Dundee.

The Minister has not mentioned the crisis at Timex. Is he aware that Dundee is to lose hundreds of manufacturing jobs with the phasing out of watch and camera manufacture? Is he aware that 11 million watches were imported into the United Kingdom in 1982, so there should be a market available? Furthermore, has he made any inquiries into the availability of work to sustain increased employment at Timex beyond that anticipated by the Timex corporation in its plans for Dundee?

I am aware of the difficulties that have been facing Timex in recent months and of the 1,900 redundancies that have been announced. My right hon. Friend and I have spent a great deal of time talking to the company, the work force, Mr. Fred Olsen, Mr. Clive Sinclair and others. The company is making every effort to continue a programme of diversification, particularly into electronics, so that the future of the Dundee factory may be assured.

Will the Minister take this opportunity to refute the suggestion by Graham Dowson, the vice-president of Nimslo, that the loss of the production of the 3-D camera at Dundee had something to do with the inability of the work force to produce the camera at the quality and production levels that were required?

I am aware of the remarks to which the hon. Gentleman is referring, but I see no benefit to Dundee in repeating what the Nimslo management is alleged to have said. What matters to Dundee is that existing customers are retained. Mr. Olsen and the management of Timex are confident that they can produce high-quality products at Dundee, as they have done for many years and look forward to doing in the future.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the work force at Dundee has a reputation that it does not deserve, because, given the opportunity, it is hard-working? Does he further agree that it is unfortunate that trade union leaders and others sometimes make imprudent statements which give the impression that the work force is more militant than it is, and that that consequently has an adverse effect on potential investment?

There is no doubt that the events of the past few weeks have shown a readiness on the part of the work force at Dundee to try to clarify the situation, understand the problems, and do their utmost to ensure that the company will succeed.

In view of the magnificent record of the work force in turning out the Sinclair computer, why does the Minister not repudiate the unwarranted slur on the workers at the Timex factory? Are we to take it from the Minister's statement after his meeting with Mr. Olsen that he has given up all hope of recovering any of the 1,900 jobs? If he has, we have not. Lastly, when talking about Government aid being available in future, is the hon. Gentleman referring to specific projects which are in prospect, or is it simply a general statement of what might be available if something were to come along?

It is fairly obvious to all hon. Members that the market for mechanical watches has drastically reduced. That was the main Timex project at Dundee, and that is why there have been so many redundancies.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the increase on long-term unemployment in Scotland.

On 14 October 1982, the latest date for which information is available, 127,837 people in Scotland had been unemployed for more than 12 months.

Is the Minister not ashamed of those figures? Does he accept that the White Paper on the Government's expenditure plans for the next three years shows that they expect an increase of about 280,000 unemployed next year in the United Kingdom? Does that not mean an extra 50,000 in Scotland, which would take the figure beyond 400,000? Is that not a disgrace? Does it not call for a radical change in the Government's policies?

It is certainly a matter of great concern that unemployment figures have reached the level that they have and that they have been rising for many years. That is common ground. I think it is generally agreed by almost all economic commentators that it would be sheer cruelty to pretend that in future unemployment will come down rapidly, because it simply will not.

Is not the paradox of public funds in excess and public funds in stringency at the beginning of the year the reason why long-term unemployment in Scotland is bound to increase unless the Government return to Keynesian principles of investment?

If the right hon. Gentleman means that the Government should expand public spending and thus risk high interest rates, he will get a chorus of "No" to that from everyone in industry.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in the present world recession one of the many outstanding achievements of this Government has been to get inflation down to 5 per cent? Does he further agree that that puts us in a much better position to attract new industry than if we continued with the 25 per cent. inflation bequeathed to us by the Labour party?

My hon. Friend is right. The greatest enemy of jobs in every industry is continued inflation at the levels that the Labour Government seemed content to allow. This Government's great achievement is sensationally getting inflation down to very low figures.

Is the right hon. Gentleman not concerned about the number of long-term unemployed teachers in Scotland? Will he speculate and estimate the numbers of extra teachers who could be employed in Scotland if regional education authorities were given the grant of £5,000 per child that is available to children of Common Market civil servants?

I am not sure about the latter point. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a question on the matter, I am sure that one of my right hon. or hon. Friends will answer it.

Is it not true that the effective cure for long-term unemployment in Scotland is not merely to encourage industry to be competitive but to encourage small businesses? Will my right hon. Friend take up their representations with my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the Budget so that their problems may be taken into account?

I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has received many representations about small businesses and, as we all know, has already done a vast amount to help them through a difficult period. However, the most important way in which to help small businesses is to get down inflation and to avoid interest rates being pushed up again. I am sure that every person involved in small business would agree with that.

Is not the appalling aspect of yesterday's White Paper not only that the Government are forecasting an increase in unemployment of nearly 300,000 in 1983–84, but that that increase will continue up to 1985–86? Is not the real cruelty that the Government are continuing with policies that are causing appalling hardship to the Scottish people?

It depends on what the right hon. Gentleman feels is the responsible action to take. He might care to reflect whether it is better to tell the truth than to voice wholly unjustified and wild aspirations for huge reductions in unemployment, which everyone, including Labour Members, knows could not be brought about by any future Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what percentage of total European regional development fund grants to the United Kingdom has gone to Scotland in each of the past three calendar years.

The percentage of the United Kingdom quota committed to projects in Scotland was 17·7 in 1980, 35·8 in 1981, and 25 in 1982.

Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures suggest that Scotland is doing very well out of the European regional development fund? Is he satisfied that the grants are sufficiently well publicised and that the public know about them?

I agree that Scotland is doing very well out of the European regional development fund. My hon. Friend never loses an opportunity to publicise the fact that Scotland is more and more dependent on grants from, trade with and exports to Europe. Opposition Members should not sneer at that.

Does the Minister agree that any contribution to Scotland from the European development fund is deducted by the Scottish Office from the money that would otherwise come from the Treasury, so that ultimately it comes out of the same pocket?

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The money that comes from the regional fund adds to the total amount of regional assistance not only for Scotland but for the whole of the United Kingdom. Regional development funds which go to local authorities are extremely helpful in reducing borrowing charges and interest rates.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the number of jobs that would be at risk in Scotland if we pulled out of the Common Market and that the synthetic remarks made by the right hon. Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan) and by the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) are trivial compared with the effect on unemployment if such a disastrous policy were ever invoked?

Yes, Sir. Scotland would lose tens of thousands of jobs if the Labour party ever succeeded in withdrawing the United Kingdom from the European Community. I am convinced that most Labour Members are aware of that, although for some reason they are scared to admit it.

If all that aid from the European regional development fund is being of such help to local authorities, why did the Minister agree to cut Government regional aid to Scotland by 30 per cent. in the financial year 1979–80?

As the hon. Gentleman may know, Scotland is still the priority area in the United Kingdom. The largest single special development area in the United Kingdom is in Strathclyde. There can be no question but that Scotland benefits from the Government's regional policy and from the EC's regional fund.

I agree that Scotland does very well in relation to the United Kingdom and Europe considering the size of its population. However, does not the Government's refusal to apply the strict principle of additionality—allowing the money to be additional to what would otherwise be spent—reduce the advantage and militate against us obtaining even more from the European regional development fund?

I am surprised that that comment should come from a former President of the Commission. The right hon. Gentleman will know that the policy that we have adopted is the same as that undertaken by most—if not all—of the other countries in the Community.

Does my hon. Friend accept that areas such as Banff, Buckie and Keith in my constituency find it a bit hard that the regional development grant has been withdrawn and they cannot now benefit?

I sympathise with my hon. Friend, but, as he knows, the regional policy is applied throughout the Community in areas that have been allocated for regional development. He will also be aware of the assistance that is available to his area, particularly from the agricultural fund and other EC sources.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many public sector houses have been built in Scotland since 1979; and how many have been withdrawn from the public housing stock.

The number of houses reported as being completed in Scotland between 1 January 1980 and 30 September 1982 for the public sector is 17,300. A further 3,500 houses were financed by the public sector through housing associations. Nearly 28,500 houses were sold—about 27,000 under the right-to-buy—and 5,500 were demolished during the same period.

Do not these figures show the reality of so-called Tory choice? What hope can the Minister hold out to the many people who wish to be housed by local authorities? Given the massive housing loss represented by the figures, what steps is the Minister taking to initiate a massive house-building programme in Scotland?

Those figures do not represent a loss to the housing stock. The sale of council houses has no effect on the total housing stock or on the prospects of those seeking houses and transfers. During that period there were about 53,000 new house completions in Scotland. As an owner-occupier in Cumbernauld, the hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that, as a result of the sales policy, more than 1,300 tenants in Cumbernauld became owner-occupiers during that period.

How many empty houses are there in the public sector in Scotland, and how many of them could be rehabilitated for use? Does my hon. Friend agree that in the present economic climate rehabilitation would be a better and cheaper way of dealing with housing waiting lists than a much lengthier and more costly new house-building programme?

My hon. Friend is right. The Government are concentrating resources on rehabilitation. There are about 29,000 vacant public sector houses in Scotland, according to the last census figures.

How can the Under-Secretary of State have the brass neck to say that the diminution in the size of the public sector housing stock, which is amply illustrated by the figures, has no effect on the prospects of those on waiting lists? Does the hon. Gentleman not know that every week constituents who are trapped in houses that are unsuitable to their needs and in areas that they do not like make representations to all hon. Members, because their choice has been destroyed by the Government's housing policies? Is it not true that by 1985–86 there will have been a cut, in real terms, of over 20 per cent., and that that is illustrated by the figures in the White Paper published yesterday?

The sale of council houses to sitting tenants has no effect on the prospects of those currently seeking houses or transfers, for the simple reason that, if tenants do not buy their houses, they are likely to carry on renting. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will recognise that last year improvement and repair grants in Glasgow amounted to about £6·5 million and that Glasgow district council estimates its expenditure next year to be between £40 million and £50 million. Even the hon. Gentleman cannot define that as a cut.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will take steps to improve psychogeriatric services in the Western Isles.

Responsibility for services in the Western Isles is a matter for the Western Isles health board in the first instance. I have, however, undertaken to discuss with the right hon. Gentleman any suggestions he may care to make.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that doctors and hospitals in the area are deeply concerned about what they describe as a "crisis point", and that it is against current psychiatric practice to fly patients away from their homes to Inverness, where they are out of reach of visits from their relatives and friends? When considering the allocation for the Western Isles in the plans for Craig Dunain hospital, will he try to ensure that a hospital is built instead in the Western Isles?

I share the right hon. Gentleman's view that the arrangement is not ideal, but, after many years of considering the planning, it has been decided that it represents the best use of available resources. As the right hon. Gentleman probably knows, the health board has submitted a request for approval of a post for a consultant psychiatrist, and we are considering that.

Do Ministers recollect the telegram that was sent by the imaginative Labour candidate for Western Isles, Brian Wilson, which said "Send Shackleton here"? How do Ministers justify the hypocrisy that when money is needed in the Western Isles or for investment in West Lothian, £684 million has been earmarked next year for West Falkland?

The relevance of that question almost escapes me. If the hon. Gentleman considered the whole sphere of psychiatric care in the Western Isles, he might begin to understand the health care patterns there. Perhaps I am being a little optimistic, given that the hon. Gentleman does not understand the needs of the Falkland Islanders.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that I should like to raise a point of order at the end of Question Time as a result of an answer given by the Under-Secretary of State.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what guidance he has given to regional councils on the provision of children's centres, nursery and playgroup facilities for pre-school children.

None, Sir.

Is the Minister aware of the damage being done to young children in Lothian as a result of the cuts that have already been made in nursery education? Does he support the provision of full-time pre-school education, and does he recognise that the children in greatest need suffer most from the cuts?

Nursery education is a matter for my hon. Friend the Minister responsible for education, and the provision of local services is a matter for the local authority. However, the Government are keen to encourage the various types of pre-school attention that can be given to young children. We are particularly keen to help the Scottish Pre-school Playgroups Association, to which we have given £89,000 to enable it to carry out some of its headquarters work.

The Minister's answer is surprising, as his Department has given no guidance on these matters to local authorities. Will he undertake to ask the Department to examine the regulations that each region in Scotland has published on the subject and to consider the wide variations in them? Will he ask the Department to note that in the Lothian region, for example, the regulations result in extremely high fees for day nurseries—sometimes more than £50 a week? Will he encourage the voluntary participation of parents through the playgroup scheme?

We shall do everything possible to encourage voluntary participation through the playgroup scheme. Neither the present Government nor the previous one have felt it necessary to give the guidance for which the right hon. Gentleman has asked. It is up to each local authority to examine the needs of its area and decide how best to provide for pre-school playgroups.

Does my hon. Friend agree that since the publication 11 years ago of the White Paper that encouraged nursery education and pre-school playgroups, such provision has been exceptionally valuable to children? Will he think again about making a strong recommendation to education authorities to do all that they can, especially for pre-school playgroups?

At the risk of repeating myself, I must say that the Government would like to and do encourage the pre-school playgroup movement. Adding to nursery education is a matter for my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Fletcher), and it should be considered in the light of whether we want to reduce the school starting age. I sometimes think that that is what some of the advocates of that policy want.

Does the Minister agree that there is considerable value in pre-school education in all its forms and that the Government made a grave mistake by removing the statutory obligation on local authorities to make such a provision under the Education Act 1980? Does he accept that pre-school provision in Scotland is an accident of geography and that it is no fault of the children or their parents that they are unable to benefit from such a provision throughout the country? Does he agree that a great deal more needs to be done?

At the moment, 80,000 children all over Scotland benefit from pre-school provision of various types. My view and that of the Government is that the preschool playgroup, involving parents and children as it does, is the best way to improve that provision.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what are the latest figures he has for the number of construction workers who are unemployed in the Glasgow travel-to-work area.

In May 1982, the date of the last industrial analysis of unemployed workers, 14,390 persons who had last worked in the construction industry were registered as unemployed at employment and careers offices in the Glasgow travel-to-work area.

Is the Minister prepared to give a guarantee now that if Glasgow district council comes to him with an urgent request for funds to pay for damage that has been done by the storms that swept the west of Scotland on Monday night, he will deal with that request speedily and ensure that some of the construction workers who are at present unemployed are given at least temporary employment and that the many people who are suffering from the damage will be given quick relief?

We have been considering arrangements for emergency provision. I shall of course consider any representation that we receive from Glasgow district council, or any other district council, with the necessary urgency.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that many of the people who are attempting to recruit construction workers from the dole have found it impossible to persuade them to leave the dole to entertain jobs?

Rubbish.

I am interested to hear my hon. and learned Friend's views on these matters. However, with regard to Glasgow, perhaps I should point out that the district council has responded positively to the Government's attractive financial package of improvement and repair grants which the council calculates will create between 2,000 and 3,000 new construction jobs next year.

Will the Minister ignore the slur that his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) has cast on construction workers? Is he aware that my constituency is in the Glasgow travel-to-work area? Is it not time to have an expansionist policy to ensure that we get men back to work in the construction industry, with all the benefits that will follow from that? Will he co-operate with the abolition of labour-only subcontractors, who are eating into the construction industry by not paying taws or insurance contributions?

The hon. Gentleman will agree that Glasgow is receiving a fair share of the £1,000 millon or so of public expenditure on construction that will be spent in Scotland this year. The Glasgow area continues to benefit from major public and private investment, such as the Scottish exhibition centre and the St. Enoch's complex. With regard to the hon. Gentleman's detailed points, he may be interested to know that I shall discuss the state of the industry with the Scottish construction industry group on Friday.

Is it not regrettable that so many construction workers are unemployed when the Government have money, but unfortunately make it available late in the day so that these schemes in Glasgow have difficulty in catching up? Will Ministers shake themselves up and make the money available at the beginning of the financial year, rather than trail away at the end of the year, trying to find people to carry them out?

The money to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is available until the end of the next financial year. I should have thought that that was ample time.

Does my hon. Friend agree that many more construction jobs would be created in Glasgow if local authorities released land for private house building? Is there nothing that he can do about that?

My hon. Friend has made a valid point. It is encouraging to note how much land in Glasgow has been released for private construction in the GEAR area. In co-operation with the local authorities, I inter d to consider land that is held by them and the rest of the public sector to see whether we can make progress in the direction that my hon. Friend suggested.

rose—

Call Albert.

Order. That is a pleasure deferred.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I had thought that, as Kilmarnock is in the Glasgow travel-to-work area, I might have caught your eye.

Order. Glasgow is a very big city; it is bigger than Cardiff. I cannot call every hon. Member from Glasgow, but I shall watch the hon. Gentleman as the afternoon progresses.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland what progress has been made with the intentions of Her Majesty's Government to hold discussions about the future government of Scotland.

Discussions about the future government of Scotland have been held and changes were introduced in the procedures of this House affecting the Scottish Grand Committee, including provision for meetings in Edinburgh.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reflect on the declarations of a Tory commitment to devolution that were given by Lord Home, the right hon. Members for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) and for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith), and even the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs? Does he believe that road shows of Committees of the House are any substitute for Scottish devolution?

The hon. Gentleman does not do much service to the people who work in Parliament for Scotland if he suggests that meetings of the Scottish Grand Committee are not worth having.

They are a waste of time.

All previous Governments, including the Labour Government, maintained that such meetings were impossible, yet the Government have achieved it.

Can the Secretary of State tell us whether the Government are in favour of Scottish devolution and there being some real power in Scotland? Or are they against it, or are they waiting to be told what to do by some other party?

It depends on what the right hon. Gentleman means. If he means an extra layer of government, and taxes on the Scots to pay for it, I am against it and I believe that most of Scotland is, too.

As we have serious economic problems, does my right hon. Friend agree that this is not the time to contemplate a major upheaval?

That is why we need it.

Will my right hon. Friend do everything in his power to encourage further decentralisation, such as has happened with the headquarters of the Forestry Commission, which now operates extremely successfully from my constituency?

There is a great deal of responsibility that can be devolved in that way. I detect little interest in Scotland in a new round of vast and interminable constitutional arguments when there are much more important things to do.

Will the Secretary of State consider supporting the Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) on the future of the Scottish Parliament?

The hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) is not here to speak to his Bill, but I am bound to say that such a Bill supported by the hon. Gentleman is not likely to get much support from me.

As the Secretary of State in Cabinet and the Labour party in Scotland have lost the battle with English colleagues over the proposed dilution of industrial incentive schemes in Scotland, does he not now think that it is time that Scotland had a Parliament equipped with industrial and economic powers, and with access to the oil revenues that are Scotland's by right?

I do not know how the hon. Gentleman has the cheek even to raise his head on the subject of devolution, considering that his party is the one party that is resolutely opposed to every conceivable form of devolution because it wants to break Scotland off from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, despite the furore and interesting views expressed in the past decade on devolution, if his constituency is anything like mine, at present there is no interest in that subject?

I agree with my hon. Friend. As I have said, I do not detect anyone in Scotland who is keen to pay extra taxes for an extra layer of government.

Does the Secretary of State not regret that his first act as Secretary of State was to take the Scotland Act of the statute book? Is he aware that the people of Scotland now appreciate that their only chance of a Scottish Assembly is when a Labour Government come to power? Is he further aware that when the Labour party comes to power after the next election it will set up a Scottish Assembly, which will meet in Edinburgh?

I was interested in the hon. Gentleman's forecast. I shall leave a note for my grandson so that he can notice this, when a Labour Government come to power. The hon. Gentleman should be careful about making any commitments on devolution. He must know as well as everyone else in the House that he has no chance of carrying all the members of his party with him on that subject.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many additional geriatric and psychogeriatric beds, respectively, are to be provided in the Kirkcaldy area; and when he expects them to be available for patients.

Sixty additional geriatric beds, 90 additional psychogeriatric beds together with 30 short-stay psychiatric beds and 80 day places are being provided in the new Whyteman's Brae development. Building work is expected to be completed in March and Fife health board intends to admit the first patients in June or July of this year.

The Minister's reply will help to alleviate the tragic conditions faced by many elderly people on the waiting list. Nevertheless, the position of those who are still waiting to use the day facilities to which he referred will be seriously aggravated because of the Government's refusal to give the necessary finance for the eight additional ambulances required to convey those patients to and from hospital. What action does the Minister intend to take to remedy that position?

Of course, new day hospitals place a heavy demand on patient transport. At present the ambulance service can fund two additional vehicles for Kirkcaldy. Further provision for taking the patients to the day centre is being examined.

Is my hon. Friend aware that people in Fife much appreciate the extent to which the Government have made a positive contribution, both in works under way and authorised, to medical care? Does he recognise that geriatric and psychogeriatric care needs continuing attention in Fife, as in some other parts of the country—

Is Fife in Kirkcaldy?

No.

Kirkcaldy is in Fife.

I apologise.

My hon. Friend is right in saying that, not just in Fife, but throughout Scotland, we must give a higher priority to the needs of the elderly, who are a growing section of our population. In 1981 the Fife health board made available 60 new geriatric beds. Over the next few years a further 360 beds for geriatric and psychogeriatric patients will be available in Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy. When those beds are available, Fife will have moved a considerable way towards meeting the desirable standards of provision for the elderly.

Contrary to what the hon. Member for Fife, East (Mr. Henderson) said, is the Minister aware that the Whyteman's Brae development is the Labour Government's proposal? Construction work began when the Labour Government were in office. Is the Minister further aware that his record in all areas of medicine, whether psychiatric, geriatric of paediatric care, is an absolute disgrace, because he has not yet announced the laying of a new brick in any new hospital building programme in Scotland? He is the last person who should come to the Dispatch Box and claimed credit for any improvement in the National Health Service. No one has done more to damage the NHS than the Minister.

The hon. Gentleman ought to know that the planning of hospital development takes a long time. Advanced works are under way for the new West Lothian district general hospital at Livingston and there are contracts for the first phase of work at the Western general hospital. A number of relatively smaller projects keep going on. If we get to the hon. Gentleman's question on the Order Paper, I shall state what development there has been in Falkirk. [Interruption.] In response to the seated interventions, when hon. Members asked me about developments in Scotland, I explained the developments in Fife.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many teachers are unemployed (a) in Scotland, and (b) in the Strathclyde region.

On 9 September 1982, the latest date for which information is available, 3,851 people were registered for employment as teachers in Scotland, of whom 1,657 were registered in Strathclyde.

Does the Minister recognise that those are not accurate figures, bearing in mind that many teachers are working in more menial jobs? Does he also recognise that it is now opportune to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio from 33:1 to 25:1? Does he agree that the supply of clothing and footwear for needy children should be a matter for the DHSS? If that were transferred back to the DHSS, Strathclyde alone could employ 125 more teachers. Will he pull his finger out and get cracking.

I am happy to say to the hon. Gentleman that the pupil-teacher ratios in Scotland are the best ever—14:1 in secondary and 22:1 in primary.

Why has the Secretary of State been so dilatory in bringing forward proposals to provide for a graduate teaching profession in Scotland? Why is he not protecting Scottish teachers, who will be disadvantaged and excluded from teaching in England and Wales as a result of the regulations introduced by the Secretary of State for Education and Science early last year?

The hon. Gentleman is questioning why my right hon. Friend should be carrying out careful consultations with the teaching authorities before making any announcement on the matter. If, as is unlikely, the hon. Gentleman ever has any responsibility for education in Scotland, the first thing that he will learn is the importance of such consultations.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it was unrealistic over many years, with declining school rolls because of the decline in the birth rate, to continue to have teachers trained when there was no prospect of them ever finding jobs? We should use the opportunity now to weed out those who should no longer be teaching.

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct on his first point. If we had taken the advice of the Labour party, we would be producing more teachers today in the face of declining school rolls. The number of unemployed would be higher. However, the Government and the local authorities have taken a much more sensible view.

Does the Minister agree that yesterday's White Paper suggests that the teacher-pupil ratios in secondary education will deteriorate over the next three years? Instead of allowing for a reduction in teacher training there should be an increase, especially when one takes into account the challenges facing the teaching profession, with Munn and Dunning and so on. Is it any wonder that the report published at the weekend, reported in the press, stated that morale in the teaching service in Scotland is at its lowest ebb for 30 years?

That report was not particularly authoritative on that subject. The Government are taking fully into account the impact on teaching of, for example, the Munn and Dunning proposals. There is no getting away from the fact that the pupil-teacher ratios are the best ever, and that in Scotland there are the best opportunities this year, next year and in the years thereafter for improving the quality of education of our children, which is what the House wants.

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many closures and company liquidations there have been in the area covered by the Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles constituency in the past six months.

Comprehensive statistics of factory closures and liquidations are not available by area. However, there has been one instance of redundancy notified to the MSC involving 10 or more workers and arising in the context of closure during the period August 1982 to January 1983.

Is the Secretary of State for Scotland aware that people in my constituency, as elsewhere in Scotland, become increasingly depressed when they read in their local papers week by week of partial or complete closures of companies? Is he aware that the CBI industrial trends survey published yesterday forecast that over the next six months investment in manufacturing industry would decrease further? Will he use his leverage in the Cabinet to get the Chancellor of the Exchequer to produce a Budget that will be of real help to investment in industry?

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is extremely discouraging to see reports of jobs being lost and firms being closed. However, it is also encouraging when one sees expansions and success stories, as he has had, for example, in his constituency with Fiber Materials Incorporated, Exacta Circuits and BEPI Electronics. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is desirable that the Government should continue their important work in making life easier for industry, particularly by reducing the national insurance surcharge, introduced capriciously by the previous Government and acknowledged by them as having done nothing useful.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland if he considers the law on armed trespass is working satisfactorily.

Few difficulties have arisen in connection with enforcing the provisions of section 20 of the Firearms Act 1968, which deals with armed trespass. Problems arose when proceedings were instituted in 1981 in two cases of alleged armed trespass in an area known as the "Merse" in my hon. Friend's constituency. These cases gave rise to questions of a civil rather than criminal nature.

Does my hon. and learned Friend realise that there is anxiety about the implementation of the Act in relation to wildfowling in the Merse and on the foreshore? Will he try to resolve the matter without relying on private litigation?

This offence of armed trespass can be tried only summarily in Scotland. Difficult civil issues arise out of the ownership of the land and who is entitled to go out to that part of the Merse. The matter can be resolved only by the owners raising an action of declarator.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland how many prosecutions are being pursued in the Kilmarnock area as a result of the investigations by the special investigation team attached to the Department of Health and Social Security.

None, Sir.

I am glad to hear that answer, because it vindicates the honest people of Kilmarnock. Does the Solicitor-General agree that the Government could spend their money better by seeking those who are not being paid the benefits due to them, particularly the elderly and the handicapped, either because they are not claiming the benefits or they have been refused?

The matter that the hon. General has put to me is one with which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would have to deal. I should be involved only if there were cases reported to the procurator fiscal that suggested that there had been criminal fraud in relation to social security.

Has the Solicitor-General's attention been drawn to the fiasco that took place in Oxford, when the legal rights of many citizens were trampled on? While recognising the difficult job of the DHSS in preventing fraud and checking on possible theft, can he assure us that he will not allow similar circumstances to arise in Scotland?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Assuming that Fife is in Kirkcaldy, is Oxford in Kilmarnock?

I have not yet absorbed the first geography lesson.

I am obviously aware of the action that was taken in Oxford. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that in Scotland, as he is aware, we have the procurator fiscal system. If there were to be any allegations of fraudulent activity involving social security, they would need to be reported to the procurator fiscal if any action were to be taken in court.

Will the Solicitor-General obtain a copy of the booklet issued by the DHSS as instructions to social security fraud investigators and consider those instructions with a view to deciding whether they amount to harassment of the suspect?

I shall certainly look at that matter, but I am not aware that any complaints have been made to the procurators fiscal in Scotland of harassment of claimants.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland how many prosecutions have been brought by his Department for offences involving alcohol over the Christmas and new year holiday periods; and whether these figures show a decrease or increase on the figures for comparable periods in the previous year.

It is not possible to provide figures of the type requested by my hon. Friend. What I can say from the information available to me is that prosecutions this year for offences committed in the relevant period directly relating to the abuse of alcohol, such as drunk and incapable and drunk and disorderly are at the same level as the same period in 1981–82. Provisional figures for drink-driving offences over the recent holiday period show a small rise over the comparable period in 1981–82.

I thank my hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the statistics are still disturbing and that this anti-social, if seasonal, crime requires a greater degree of Government control? Will he consult his right hon. and hon. Friends in the Scottish Office to see whether there are ways of impressing upon people, before the next festivities, that that type of crime will be prosecuted vigorously? In that way it may be that people will be deterred.

My hon. Friend will be aware that in Scotland over the Christmas period chief constables made a particular effort to ensure that drunken driving did not occur. From his experience in the Scottish courts, I am sure he will appreciate that all too often the excessive consumption of alcohol is a prime factor in the unfortunate level of crime that we experience.

Is the Solicitor-General aware that many people believe that this matter is so important that it calls for a massive advertising campaign? Will he therefore consult his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, as, apparently, there is a great deal of money available for such purposes?

I should certainly be prepared to consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland who, I believe, is regrettably all too well aware of the problem of the excessive consumption of alcohol in Scotland.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland, against how many persons charges related to drunkenness were brought by his Department in each of the last two years for which figures are available.

The number of persons proceeded against in such cases is as follows: for drunkenness offences under the Licensing (Scotland) Acts and so on in 1980 the figure was 14,459 and in 1981 11,579; for drink-driving offences the figure in 1980 was 12,779 and in 1981 11,460.

How many of the people who have been picked up by the police for drunkenness have been referred to a designated place under section 5 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980? Is he satisfied that the police are making proper use of that section? Is he satisfied equally that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is providing sufficient money to establish proper designated places?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the provisions under section 5 came into effect on 1 June 1981. As he clearly realises from the terms of his quetion, the matter is one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, but even then the responsibility for the provision of designated places is for local authorities and other bodies. Proposals have been received for designated places in Aberdeen, Clydebank, Inverness and Glasgow. I share his anxiety that designated places should be provided where appropriate.

Does the Solicitor-General keep statistics that show not just the charges relating to drunkenness but where drink was a factor that led to the commission of the offence?

No, although I believe that the hon. Gentleman is correct. Far too often excessive drinking is at the centre of much of Scotland's crime. It would be impossible to keep statistics in all cases that would show whether drink was involved. He will appreciate, from his experience in the courts, that drink can be a prime factor, in crimes ranging from murder down to simple acts of vandalism.

I apologise for taking part in Scottish questions, but as this is a national problem, may I ask the Solicitor-General to discuss with various Departments the equally dangerous habit of drug-taking and driving? Many people who have taken drugs do not know that they are a danger on the road. Could they be told to be careful when taking drugs? They take drugs for colds and other illnesses and the doctors do not advise them of the dangers.

Although the matter is not primarily my responsibility, I accept that if people take drugs and drive it can lead them into circumstances where they will not only be in breach of the road traffic legislation, but may commit other crimes.

asked the Solicitor-General for Scotland when he next expects to meet the procurator fiscal of Perth to discuss prosecution procedures.

I have no immediate plans to meet the procurator fiscal of Perth.

When my hon. and learned Friend meets the procurator fiscal of Perth and other procurators fiscal, will he discuss with them the problem of those who plead guilty on second diet and see what he can do to ensure that the procurators fiscal persuade them to plead guilty on first diet, before public funds must bear the cost of bringing police officers and witnesses to court, when the individual has decided to plead guilty without going to trial?

I know that my hon. Friend is worried that there are too many cases where a plea of guilty is tendered on the day of the trial. However, I emphasise that my noble and learned Friend the Lord Advocate has given instructions to the procurators fiscal that it is part of their duties to meet defence solicitors to discuss the evidence available to the Crown, to arrange minutes of admissions of evidence and to give defence solicitors copies of statements of witnesses whose evidence is regarded as formal or technical. I hope that defence solicitors will take up the initiative, which should result in many members of the public, both witnesses and jurors, being allowed to stay at home and not be required to attend court.

Is it not a little surprising that the Solicitor-General and his colleagues should be so worried about this problem, when they legislated for it in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 1980 with intermediate diets and judicial examination procedures? Is the reason for the anxiety the fact that those provisions have been only a limited success, or even a failure?

No, it is not. The hon. Gentleman told me himself that there is surprising success in the use of judicial examinations.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I hesitate to raise such a point of order, and I believe that it is the first that I have raised in my 18 or 19 years in the House. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that we have dealt with only 12 Scottish questions today. You may respond, properly, by saying that perhaps the questions, or the answers, were too long. However, my point is that there are more than 40 Labour Members, three Liberal Members, two Scottish Nationalist Members and three SDP Members on the Opposition Benches, and more than 20 Members of the Conservative party here. In calling hon. Members, as you do properly, on a geographical basis, it gives the Conservative party an advantage of 2:1 over thase of us who represent Labour interests in the House of Commons. Although I do not ask you to make a judgment now, perhaps at some stage you will consider this real problem for those of us who sit on the Opposition Benches.

One advantage of having been in the House for a long time is knowing that whatever happens now has happened before. When I had the great privilege of speaking on Welsh affairs in the House, one side of the House had 32 Members representing Welsh constituencies out of 36 and the other side had four such Members. None the less, the Speaker of the day felt obliged to hold the balance in the political sense and to cross the Floor both in the Welsh Grand Committee, of which I was chairman, and here. But of course, I shall consider what the right hon. Gentleman said.