asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unemployment figures expressed numerically and as a percentage in Aberdare, mid-Glamorgan and Wales; and how they compare with those for May 1979.

On 13 January 1983, unemployed claimants in Wales totalled 180,664 or 17·5 per cent., in mid-Glamorgan; 34,102 or 17·0 per cent., and in Aberdare 4,021 or 18·3 per cent. In May 1979, unemployed claimants totalled 77,177 or 7·0 per cent. Comparative figures on this basis are not available for Aberdare and mid-Glamorgan, but in May 1979 unemployed registrants totalled 1,961 or 8·9 per cent. and 15,471 or 8·2 per cent. respectively.

In view of the massive increase in unemployment—the real figure today is perhaps more than 200,000—will the Secretary of State re-examine those areas that have lost their special development area status? Does he agree that, in my constituency, where there has been a massive increase in unemployment, restoration of special development area status would help the National Coal Board to give the pilot scheme to the phurnacite plant? Will the Secretary of State examine that urgently?

The hon. Gentleman will realise that a major review of that type might lead to upgradings in areas other than Wales, which might damage Wales. The fact that we have such a massive factory building programme and are attracting so many new allocations shows that present policies are benefiting Wales. Although the hon. Gentleman did not say so, I am sure that he will welcome the National Coal Board's decision to go ahead with the Ancit development in his constituency for which he has pressed so often and for so long.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the fact that 36 unemployed people are chasing every job in Wales shows that the Government's employment policy has sunk to rock bottom and that there must be a change of policy if we are to see better times?

Of course I share the hon. Gentleman's worry. That is why we have such a massive programme of special measures. We are spending about £1½ billion on special measures in Britain during 1982–83. In the light of the problem that the hon. Gentleman has described, I am sure that he will recognise the importance of the new youth training scheme, on which we plan to spend nearly £1 billion next year.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the evil of unemployment is affecting centralised states such as France, and devolved ones and even small independent states such as southern Ireland equally and greatly? Does that not show the immensity of this international problem and evil?

Everyone recognises that unemployment is a major international problem that has got worse and is getting worse in many countries. I am sure that my hon. Friend will welcome the fact that some of the indicators, not only in Britain but in the United States and elsewhere, show signs of growing optimism for the rest of the year.

Although most of us accept that unemployment is a major international problem, why is it so much worse here than anywhere else? Why is it that countries that have fewer advantages than we are better off? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the greatest tragedy in the figures that he gave is for school leavers and that there are 321 unemployed school leavers in Aberdare, 2,000-odd in mid-Glamorgan and nearly 8,000 in Wales as a whole? What hope of a permanent job can he offer those young people?

I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that many of those school leavers are getting jobs and/or training under the programmes that we have announced. A high proportion of them are getting jobs in the time scale that was laid down by the Manpower Services Commission. I am sure that he will especially welcome the new youth training scheme and all the opportunities that it provides for the proper training of our work force. That must be one way in which to improve our competitiveness the lack of which is, perhaps, the essential reason for our loss of many markets and the fact that our position is worse than that of some other industrial countries.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many applications his office has received from the Welsh water authority for storm water overflows to be diverted into the public sewers; and how many have been approved.

The water authority is not required to seek my right hon. Friend's consent for the connection of storm water overflows to public sewers.

When the current dispute in the water industry is over, will the Secretary of State investigate the adequacy of the Welsh water authority's assessment of the action necessary to stop raw sewage flooding into the homes of my constituents in Clydach?

We shall not have to wait until the end of the current dispute, because I understand that short-term alleviation has been undertaken and a thorough investigation to decide the optimum measures for improvement is being put in hand by the Welsh water authority's sewarage agent, which is the Lliw valley borough council.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many jobs were lost in Wales by redundancy or closure in each of the last four years.

The information is not available in the form requested. Redundancies involving 10 employees or more were reported as due to occur as follows: during 1979, 11,663; during 1980, 45,215; during 1981, 36,432; and during 1982 provisionally 23,577.

Do not those figures show how much deindustrialisation there has been in Wales? Is the Secretary of State not aware that all the reputable economic forecasters agree that if present Government policies continue there is bound to be a substantial increase in unemployment? What will he do about that? Does he accept that if there is, as there will be, an increase in unemployment, the effect on Wales will be greater than that on any other region because of our dependence on steel?

The hon. Gentleman will realise that those figures do not show how much deindustrialisation there has been, because one has to strike a balance between jobs lost and jobs created. A large number of jobs have been created. The figures do not include jobs among the self-employed, for example. The hon. Gentleman suggested that Wales would be worse off than any other region. That is not true. During the present recession, despite the steel losses, unemployment has risen less severely in Wales than in the United Kingdom as a whole. The improved infrastructure and the greater diversification of our industrial base mean that in the future, we will do better than we have done relatively in the past.

Does my right hon. Friend have any confidence that the policies that would revive inflation would contribute anything to the defeat of unemployment in Wales?

I am sure that they would not. One of the weaknesses of many of the policies advocated by the Opposition and others is that they involve not only inflation but some control over prices and incomes, without a guarantee or expectation that the desired effect can be delivered.

In his quieter moments, does the Secretary of State recall the way in which he used to attack the Labour Government when unemployment was a fraction of what it is now—and abused me personally, although I did not mind that? Is he proud of his stewardship of Wales during the past few years, or has he given up the ghost and has no idea of when unemployment will come down?

No Secretary of State who has been in office when unemployment has risen massively, as it did under my predecessor and in my period of office, can be proud of that fact. However, I can be proud of the fact that, despite the severity of the recession and the economic difficulties that we face, we have probably carried out a greater improvement in the industrial infrastructure and attracted more new jobs than in any previous period in modern Welsh history.

There seems to be a difference between my right hon. and learned Friend and the Secretary of State. Does the Secretary of State not agree that the net job losses under the Government have been the worst in Wales since the war? Will he confirm that, in 1979, when the Labour Government were in office, 1,022,000 people were in employment in Wales—an all-time record high—while in June 1982, under the Conservative Administration, the total had fallen to 877,000, an all-time record low? How many of those job losses does he accept as being at least partly his responsibility?

We all know that the numbers of unemployed have increased and that there are fewer people in work than there were when the Labour Government left office, just as employment deteriorated during the period of office of the Labour Government. Unemployment more than doubled under our predecessors. However, all of us can take comfort from the knowledge that, despite those facts, during the past two years we have allocated an all-time record amount of new factory space—nearly 1·6 million sq ft in 1981, and nearly 2 million sq ft in 1982. It is remarkable that, despite the recession, we are being so successful in attracting new jobs and the new industries that will provide the jobs of the future to which we all look.

I am sure that the Secretary of State would not want to mislead the House.

Hear, hear.

The facts clearly show that the numbers of people in employment in Wales rose from the time when the Labour Government took office in 1974 until they left office in 1979, which is the complete opposite of what has happened under the Conservative Administration.

If the right hon. Gentleman looks tomorrow at what I have said, he will see that I in no way misled the House and that, in giving my answer, I was careful to refer to the fact that unemployment more than doubled under the Labour Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he proposes to make any changes to the guidelines issued by him to the Welsh Development Agency; and if he is satisfied with the performance of that agency.

New guidelines have recently been issued covering the agency's land reclamation function, and a copy is available in the Library. I do not propose to make any major changes in the guidelines for the agency's other main functions at the moment, although this is kept under review. I am satisfied with the agency's achievements to date, but I am having discussions with the recently appointed chairman and the board about its future strategy.

Does the Secretary of State accept that, if any of the guidelines are to be changed, it is those for the creation of new jobs in Wales that should be changed? That is where the most patent failure of the agency is evident. Is he not aware of the consultants' report—the Larsen Sweeney report—which was published a few months ago, which referred to the Welsh Development Agency as being the subject of anecdotal amusement? Does not the right hon. Gentleman feel that there is something drastically wrong, which needs to be put right?

It is not just to say that the performance of the WDA is the subject of amusement when, since it was set up, it has constructed about 8 million sq ft of factory space, 5 million of it under the Conservative Government, and has occupied much of that factory space in the middle of a recession. There is a change in future strategy. There has been a sharp increase in the approved investment portfolio from £10·5 million to £15 million during the recent past. It is developing the investment activities of Hafren, its new investment subsidiary. The new chairman is carrying out an urgent review of its strategy with the board. I am about to have a meeting with the board to discuss its future policy.

Does the Secretary of State recall that last May he told the House that he had asked the agency to reconsider its long-term strategy? Has the agency now embarked on a new course? If so, in what direction is it going?

Since then, Hafren has been established and there has been an upturn in the investment porfolio. A new strategy document was prepared, but the former chairman, Mr. Stephen Gray, died during the preparation of the report. I thought it right to allow the new chairman time to consider the report before meeting the board, which I intend to do within the next couple of weeks.

Is it not true that the best hope for jobs in Wales lies increasingly not so much in manufacturing as in service industries? Should not that fact be reflected in the guidelines that are given to the WDA? Might not such tourist projects as a theatre in Rhyl, in which the WDA should begin to interest itself, be taken into account?

The present guidelines give a good deal of flexibility to the agency. It can support non-manufacturing industries. I agree that there should be a proper balance, and I am seeking to achieve it. The Rhyl sun centre is an example of how a service project can give substantial job opportunities to the area. We want to have a proper mix in every part of Wales.

Does the Secretary of State agree that to achieve its finest potential the agency would require the Government to reflate the economy drastically, albeit in a controlled way? May I remind the Secretary of State that in Clwyd and Gwynedd manufacturing jobs in the pipeline over the next four years total only 3,750? When does he think there may be news of the Finnish pulp paper mill at Shotton?

I believe that we shall have a decision on that matter before much longer. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the recent annnouncement by the Welsh Development Agency of a £6 million-plus reclamation project in the area. Whatever the hon. Gentleman's views of reflation, most people in industry would think that low interest rates and the keeping down of industries' costs are perhaps rather more important for future job creation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to provide short-term alleviation of the dangers to motorists and pedestrians arising from the configuration of the A55 Bodelwyddan.

As I told my hon. Friend on 22 November, the county council has been requested to improve the junction between Ty Fry lane and the trunk road. Its investigations show that the necessary diversion of underground services would cause a substantial delay in completing the work. A simpler scheme which could be implemented quickly is now being prepared.

I thank my hon. Friend for that informative reply, but is he aware that it is now 10 weeks since he undertook to study carefully a constructive suggestion that I made for the immediate improvement of the position at Bodelwyddan by painting double white lines along the road? Can he give me any news of that?

The initial report from the county surveyor does not show that the use of double white lines would improve safety. However, I am studying that point carefully. I know how strongly my hon. Friend feels and I can assure him that agreement about remedial measures will be reached quickly and action to implement such measures will follow immediately.

Further to the development on pedestrian safety on trunk road development in Wales, will the Minister consider sympathetically the welter of protest about pedestrian crossings and underpasses, particularly on the Carmarthen southern bypass at Pen-sarn?

rose—

Order. That does not arise on this question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new factory units and how many square feet of factory space have been built by the Welsh Development Agency since its inception.

Between January 1976 and December 1982 the Welsh Development Agency completed 1,022 advance factory units, 11 bespoke factory units and 66 factory extensions, totalling in all just over 8 million sq ft.

How many of those factory units are occupied? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the supply is sufficient to meet the demand, particularly if there is an upturn in the economy?

The vacancy rate has risen to about 15 per cent. but in view of the scale of the factory building programme that has been carried out, that is not surprising. We expect those figures to fall if allocations continue at anything like the rate of the past couple of years.

Although one wishes to recognise the work of the Welsh Development Agency, does the Secretary of State concede that it is in the end occupancy rather than buildings that matters? How much of the 8 million sq ft already built is at present unoccupied, either through having been vacated or through failure to obtain tenants?

I cannot give an immediate answer, but I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and give him the present exact unoccupied square footage. The vacancy rate at present is approximately 15 per cent., which is by no means unreasonable in present circumstances. I remind the hon. Gentleman again that in 1981 in Wales in Government factories generally, including those of the WDA, we allocated about 1·6 million sq ft of factory space. In 1982 the figure was nearly 2 million sq ft. Individual agencies are also doing well. One of our problems in Cwmbran is that it has done so well that there is a shortage of factory space.

May I remind the Secretary of State that the vast majority of Opposition Members wish to see the WDA move from one success to another? Many of us, therefore, were somewhat disturbed to see a recent HTV programme which contained wide discrepancies between the figures for job creation given by the WDA and those given as a result of the HTV research. We were somewhat dismayed to hear that the WDA had refused to take part in the programme. Will the Secretary of State assure us that no pressure was put on the WDA not to take part in the programme? Will the Secretary of State invite, if not direct, the WDA to publish a leaflet giving the facts so that we can all see and judge the true position?

I was about to tell the right hon. Gentleman that the matter was entirely one for the WDA, when he asked whether any pressure had been put on it. I confess that I never heard about that broadcast, and I am certain that no pressure was applied to the WDA. It is entirely up to the WDA whether it chooses to be represented in a particular broadcast. I shall certainly draw the board's attention to the right hon. Gentleman's points. I am sure that it will consider responding.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest figure of the number of males unemployed in Newport, Gwent; and what percentage of the male working population in Newport this represents.

On 13 January male unemployment in the Newport travel-to-work area totalled 10,650, or 18·8 per cent.

As the Secretary of State read out those appalling figures, should he not have been hanging his head in shame? Does he appreciate that he is talking about Newport, which is literally the industrial capital of Wales? It has a favourable geographical position and excellent communications, but it has been brought to its knees solely by the Government's monetarist policies. Should not the Secretary of State resign?

I share the hon. Gentleman's anxiety about unemployment problems in the area. However, one would not have gathered from his question that the area is particularly well placed to attract new industry. At present, Mitel is recruiting absolutely flat out at Caldicott; Inmos is also recruiting flat out; AB Electronics has recently taken an investment decision that is of importance to the area; Avana Bakeries is also engaged on a major expansion project, and most recently we have information of interest from a continental high technology company for the Gilwern site in north Gwent. Gwent is particularly well placed at the moment and there are a great many exciting projects building up to full employment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of the Welsh Development Agency's total expenditure in each of the past three years has gone towards (i) providing business premises to let and (ii) purchasing holdings in assisted companies in (a) manufacturing and (b) service industries.

In 1979–80, 63·3 per cent., 5·5 per cent. and 0·5 per cent. respectively; in 1980–81, 71·8 per cent., 0·7 per cent. and 0·1 per cent. respectively; and in 1981–82, 69·6 per cent., 2·3 per cent. and 0·2 per cent. respectively.

Does the Secretary of State agree that there is an urgent need for the agency to undertake a much more direct entrepreneurial role in Welsh industry? Does he further agree that the figures that he has given show that virtually no progress has been made in that direction? Will he undertake to have a word with the chairman of the board with a view to moving in that direction?

I partly answered the hon. Gentleman's question in earlier answers. He should recognise that the figures do not represent the take-up of the net approved portfolio investments made during the past year, during which there has been a sharp upturn. As a result, the agency expects to make 100 new investments, including Hafren Investments, in the current financial year. That represents a significant change of direction by the agency. It is precisely those points that I shall discuss when I meet the board.

Does the Secretary of State recall that when, in 1980, we had the shocking news about the steel redundancies throughout Wales, he came to the House and made a bold prediction of the job effects of the increased allocation by the WDA and the Cwmbran development corporation? How has reality measured up to his prediction in 1980?

We built more factory space than we had planned. We have certainly allocated more factory space during the past few years that I would have forecast then, and I am confident that when all those jobs materialise, which will happen over two or three years, our forecast will be amply justified.

Can the Secretary of State confirm that the number of empty factory premises belonging to the agency is nearer 40 per cent., and not 15 per cent. as he quoted in answer to an earlier question?

No, I cannot confirm the information given by the hon. Gentleman. I have given him the vacancy rate. It is also fair to say that, apart from the WDA agencies, many private factories are available in Wales. We should look not only at Government factories but increasingly at Government and private factories together to get a true picture of the availability of factory space and our success in getting that factory space occupied.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from farming organisations in Wales regarding water rates; and if he will make a statement.

None during the past year.

Does the Minister believe that those who live in Wales should pay a higher water rate than those who live in Birmingham or London? If he does not, what are his plans?

The hon. Gentleman understands the system that resulted from the Water Act 1973 and that which is proposed in the Bill before the House. It provides for different charges to be levied in different areas. The way to reduce those charges, as we have repeatedly said, in Wales as elsewhere, is by increased efficiency and productivity. We are trying to achieve that through a new, more businesslike authority.

Will the Minister link up with both the farmers organisations and the Welsh water authority to discuss leaking pipes on farms? Is the Minister aware that a farmer in my constituency received a bill for £800, which is about 10 times his normal bill, because a pipe was leaking on his land and he was charged for the water that had disappeared without anyone noticing? Will the hon. Gentleman raise that point with the authorities?

The maintenance of a water supply pipe beyond the water authority's communication pipe is the responsibility of the owner or occupier. Regular checks of the meter and the supply pipe should lead to early detection of leaks.

If the water workers, in threatening to endanger the health of the public, can obtain for themselves the substantial pay rise for which they are striking, will that make it any easier for the Welsh water authority to keep down water charges?

This question relates to representations from farming organisations in Wales. There is another question about the strike, to which I hope my right hon. Friend will reply.

What financial relief is available to hill and upland farmers whose costs for piped water connections are more prohibitive than ever?

We have had no representations on that point, but I should be happy to consider the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current level of unemployment in Wales; what percentage increase this represents since the same date in 1979; and what are the corresponding figures for mid-Glamorgan.

On 13 January 1983 unemployment claimants in Wales totalled 180,664 and in mid-Glamorgan 34,102. In Wales this represents an increase of 109·1 per cent. since January 1979. A comparable figure for mid-Glamorgan is not available.

How can the Secretary of State blandly state those figures without expressing horror at the enormity of the unemployment problem in Wales, which has been created by the Government's policies? Is he aware that, in human terms, the 34,102 unemployed in mid-Glamorgan equate with only 752 vacancies? For every 45 people unemployed, there is only one vacancy. In Bargoed in my constituency the comparable figures are that, for every 57 people unemployed, there is only one vacancy. Is it not time that the Secretary of State made his personal protest against the effects and implications of the Government's policies?

It may be characteristic of the party that the hon. Gentleman represents that it is more interested in expressions of emotion and protest than in practical alternative policies. His constituents are looking for policies that will improve the position, but they will look in vain to his party.

As my right hon. Friend has made it clear that he is anxious to promote any means of greater employment, provided that it does not induce the return of inflation, will he pay special attention to the assurances of the house building organisations in Wales that, with modest expenditure—far less than the expenditure on manufacturing industry—they could create many jobs with a moderate increase in production?

My hon. Friend will be aware that almost every real expansion of private house building that has ever taken place has been on the basis of low interest rates, which are a prime objective of Government policy. He will also be aware that, at present, substantial resources are available to local authorities in Wales for house repairs, renovation and building that are not being fully utilised.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Labour party, the TUC and the CBI have put definite proposals to the Government on how to reduce this massive unemployment? Do the Government realise that they must reverse the policies that they have put forward while in office, which, although there is a world recession, have added to the recession by the deliberate creation of unemployment?

All those organisations have put forward massive inflationary packages and, linked to them, proposals for controlling prices and incomes without a demonstration of how they would be more likely to succeed now than they did in the past.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what information he has as to the proportion of members of national parks authorities in Wales who are resident within the park areas; and whether this proportion has varied significantly since May 1979.

The proportions are 56 per cent. for the Brecon Beacons, 33 per cent. for the Pembrokeshire coast and 44 per cent. for Snowdonia. The corresponding proportions in 1979 were 41 per cent., 33 per cent. and 33 per cent.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that as many as possible of his appointees to the authorities are people who reside in the national parks, so as to ensure greater responsiveness to the interests of local people?

My hon. Friend will be aware that two-thirds of the appointments to national park committees are the responsibility of county and district councils and that in making my appointments I am primarily concerned with the skills and expertise that individuals will bring, rather than with local representation. None the less, my hon. Friend will be glad to know that, during this Government's term in office, appointments by both the local authorities and myself have represented an increase in the number of those who reside within the national parks.

May we have the same criteria established for having local people appointed to our public bodies, because it is noticeable that there have been some grave exceptions in the appointments made by the Secretary of State? One example is the unknown Ross solicitor who suddenly found himself chairman of the health authority in Gwent.

Order. That does not arise on this question.

Will the Secretary of State explain the criteria for the selection of his nominees to national park authorities, because some nominees who have been approved by the Countryside Commission are then turned down by the Welsh Office, whereas members of some political parties are nominated by the Welsh Office?

There is no truth in the hon. Gentleman's allegation. I discuss the appointments with the Countryside Commission. The hon. Gentleman will find that I have appointed a wide variety of interests to the national parks committees and that I have included members from several political parties.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total number employed by the Forestry Commission in Wales in 1960, 1970, 1980 and at the latest date for which figures are available.

In 1960 the number of employees was 3,410; in 1970 - 1,809; in 1980 - 1,350 and at the end of January 1983 - 1,195.

Does the Secretary of State accept that the cash limits policy being imposed by his Government on the Forestry Commission is now leading to a substantial reduction in the living standard of forestry workers? Will he confirm that the Treasury has told the Forestry Commission that there will have to be a pay rise of under 3 per cent. to forestry workers in the next financial year?

I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. There has always been a relationship between the pay of forestry workers and that of farm workers, but account must also be taken of the pension and other associated benefits that are available to forestry workers. These were taken into account in the recent round of pay negotiations and will no doubt be taken into account in the next round.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his most recent estimate of the numbers of tenants of local authorities and of housing associations in Wales, who have purchased their dwellings since May 1979; and if he will make a statement.

Between May 1979 and September 1982, 22,293 local authority dwellings and 12 housing association dwellings were sold to tenants in Wales. A further 1,181 dwellings were sold by the Cwmbran development corporation and the Development Board for Rural Wales. These figures amply demonstrate the strong desire among public authority tenants to own their own homes. They underlie the Government's proposals in the Housing and Building Control Bill to extend the right to buy to others who have been excluded hitherto.

Is my hon. Friend aware that this is much better than the report he gave me some months ago? Does he expect this good progress to continue?

Certainly. By the end of September about 43 per cent. of the total number of applications had resulted in sales. We are, of course, continuing to monitor authorities to ensure that steady overall progress is made in Wales.

Does the Minister recall the terms of a recent written reply to the effect that each local authority receives just over £3,000 for each unit of accommodation sold, yet has to spend in excess of £23,000 to replace that unit? How does that possibly make sense, and what lessons does the Welsh Office draw from this discrepancy?

The hon. Gentleman knows, because I have told him and the House on many occasions, that simply because a council house is sold it does not mean that it is removed from the total housing stock. Of course, local authorities gain revenue from the sale of council houses that can be applied to meet housing needs.

Is my hon. Friend aware that I am receiving an increasing number of complaints from tenants who have tried to buy their council houses from the borough of Rhuddlan? If this authority is experiencing particular difficulties in maintaining the programme, will my hon. Friend arrange for it to receive advice and help as necessary?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is certainly room for improvement by a small number of authorities. I am afraid that I have to say that Rhuddlan is among those authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will detail the effects of the water workers' strike in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

A large number of people in Wales have been made to suffer anxiety and inconvenience by this strike. Currently, almost 1 million people in the Welsh water authority's area are having to boil water, while 3,700 properties—that is, about 10,000 people—are without a piped supply. A substantial offer—7·3 per cent. over 16 months—is on the table and is available immediately, and the independent mediator's report presents clear opportunities, given genuine improvements in productivity, for increased earnings. The way is open, and I hope that the water workers will return to work immediately so that negotiations may continue and bring to an end a needless dispute that is causing great distress to the sick, the disabled, the elderly and the general public.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Wales is the area worst hit by this shameful strike, that the position is getting worse, and that private contractors and, if necessary, troops will be used wherever necessary?

I am not sure that it is right that the position is getting worse, although the number of those having to boil water has certainly increased. The number without piped supplies has been reduced. The right way forward at the moment is to deal with each problem as it arises. I am sure, however, that it is right to urge workers to go back to work and to continue to negotiate in those circumstances, and not while they are still causing so much widespread inconvenience, on the arrangements that offer the genuine possibility of further increases.

Has the Secretary of State seen today's Western Mail, which shows that a grade I waste inspector who produced a pay packet of £85·85 is expected to believe from the television and wireless that his £85·85 has mysteriously become the much publicised figure of £135? Does the Secretary of State agree that the use of average figures does not help the average worker understand the problems? Does he further agree that the best place to settle the strike is around the negotiating table and not on television chat shows?

The figures that are being quoted are from the new earnings survey, which is being used by the unions in their comparisons in support of their claim. I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman, however, that the proper place to settle is around the negotiating table. As there is a very reasonable offer on the table of 7·3 per cent. for 16 months, and as paragraph 8 of the mediator's report has revealed the opportunities that are available for further increases, I hope that workers will go back to work, will negotiate and will not continue to cause inconvenience. They will, apart from anything else, of course, be losing substantial earnings so long as they remain out.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what amount unemployment has increased in the Deeside travel-to-work area, Clwyd and Wales since May 1979; and if he will make a statement.

Between May 1979 and January 1983 the number of unemployed claimants in Wales increased by 103,487. In the Shotton travel-to-work area and Clwyd between May 1979 and October 1982 the number of registered unemployed increased by 5,837 and 13,779 respectively; between October 1982, when the new basis was introduced, and January 1983 the number of unemployed claimants increased by 360 and 1,584.

Will the right hon. Gentleman do his utmost to speed up the tactical and strategic road improvements that are required in my constituency to hasten industrial regeneration? Does he know that the Plough Lane district distributor road is unlikely to be started until late in the 1980s? In a strategic sense, what help will he give to Clwyd county council to bring about the third crossing of the River Dee, which will give a major boost to industrial estates in Flint and on Deeside?

I agree about the importance of the proposals for a third Dee crossing. I discussed the report of the Clwyd county council and the Alyn and Deeside district council at an interesting and useful meeting on 19 January. They agreed that it was necessary to provide much more detailed information about the proposals, and discussions will continue on that basis.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the condition and suitability of vicarages and parsonages.

There are at present 8,800 official parsonage houses, of which 7,200—82 per cent.—are regarded as providing suitable accommodation. Whilst the commissioners make substantial grants to dioceses to assist with the cost of repairs, maintenance is a diocesan responsibility.

I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Is it not a fact that too many incumbents are still required to live in unmanageably large houses and that some dioceses could be more punctilious in the maintenance of these houses? Is it not also a fact that some parishes still treat their vicar's parsonages as though they were meeting places rather than the home of the incumbent?

Substantial progress has been made in the matter raised by my hon. Friend. For example, during the past five years some 1,076 parsonage houses have been replaced, by building or by purchase, at a cost to the Church Commissioners of £9·2 million in grants. If my hon. Friend has a specific case in mind in which a diocese has not performed as he thinks it should with regard to maintenance, if he will give me if e details I shall gladly pass them on.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what guidelines are provided for the erection of new church buildings.

In 1975 the Council for the Care of Churches published a document entitled "Procedure for new Church Buildings: Guidelines". I am sending my hon. Friend a copy.

I should like to thank my hon. Friend, as I am sure that the reply will be most helpful. Will he say whether it is the practice of the Church Commissioners to take soundings as to the use of new church buildings for a wider local community use?

It is not generally understood that the commissioners become involved only if it is proposed to erect a consecrated building. I am sorry that that is such a narrow point, but it is one I have to make. I am perfectly certain, however, that in modern days both the commissioners and, in cases where they are not involved, other Church authorities, would today always have regard to the wider, more general use of a church building than purely for public worship.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what steps he is taking to assist the national museums and galleries in organising touring exhibitions for the benefit of the provinces.

The national museums and galleries already have extensive arrangements for loans to the regions, which I hope will be maintained. In addition, the Government indemnity scheme can provide cover for loans, and the Arts Council operates travelling exhibition services and an information bulletin.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that the more that the national museums and galleries centred in London can take selected parts of their massive collections around provincial Britain, the more we shall be able to bring together the entire nation in its enjoyment of the arts? Is this not part of the one-nation concept?

I agree. The national museums do a great deal already in taking their collections to the provinces. I hope that that will continue and, if possible, increase. If my hon. Friend is interested, I shall send him a list of all the exhibitions and loans that are taking place from the national museums.

When considering how to help touring exhibitions, will the right hon. Gentleman please bear in mind the need for exhibitions of decorative arts and history and not merely exhibitions of paintings? Areas and centres such as the Leicester New Walk art gallery are already well served by the Arts Council's provision of painting exhibitions.

Yes, I agree. I think that there are exhibitions of the sort that the hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind. He makes a fair point.

Would the provinces not further benefit from the permanent loan of some of the surplus stocks—my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price) referred to "massive collections"—and large quantities of works of art which the national museums do not have room to display?

Some of the national museums display everything that they own. That is done, for example, by the National gallery. The Tate gallery and other galleries have pictures that they do not show. This problem would be resolved at the Tate gallery to some extent if the Tate gallery north were to go ahead. There are other permanent exhibitions, but I take my hon. Friend's point.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will give further details of the special financial scrutiny which he announced on 20 December 1982, Official Report, c. 665.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will make a statement about the proposed scrutiny of the finances of the Royal Opera House.

The terms of reference for the financial scrutinies will be:

"To examine the financial affairs and prospects of the Royal opera house and the Royal Shakespeare company and to make recommendations"

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the increased support for the arts and on the assurance that he has given this afternoon. Does he accept that the financial scrutiny of the Royal opera house and the Royal Shakespeare company should be in line with that of other national companies and with overseas companies such as La Scala, Milan?

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. With the Royal opera house it will be necessary to make some comparisons with what happens at other great international opera houses. These organisations receive large sums of public money and from time to time there should be special financial scrutiny. This is what we have arranged.

May I also congratulate my right hon. Friend on introducing these financial scrutinies? How long will the study team take to present its report? Secondly, will the staff be consulted?

Yes, the staff will certainly be consulted at all stages of the scrutinies. I hope that the studies will take about six months.

Has the Minister's attention yet been drawn to a letter that I sent him on 5 January? It dealt with correspondence that I had received purporting to have come from a political adviser at the Department of the Environment, Mr. Ed Berman. He advised arts associations in the north-west that there was £1·5 billion sloshing about and that they had only to apply to local authorities for the money? Will the Minister please make a statement on this?

I must confess that I do not recall the hon. Gentleman's correspondence. I shall check immediately. It seems that a very surprising remark was made. I shall look into the matter urgently.

Will my right hon. Friend adress his financial scrutiny of the Royal opera house to the charging and ticket issuing policy of that body? Is he aware that many of us feel that its policy has restricted the number of people who have been able to obtain tickets, and that now, in changed financial circumstances, few people apply for tickets because they believe that the number of those who obtain them is very small?

Ticket prices and box office policy will be among the matters that the scrutiny team will consider. It has always been the policy of the Royal opera house to offer comparatively cheap tickets in addition to very expensive ones so that people of modest means can go to the Royal opera house.

In view of the Rayner connections of this group, will the right hon. Gentleman urge it not to follow the unhappy precedent of the recent Rayner report on the Victoria and Albert museum, and to visit the various institutions that it is surveying while they are open? Will accountants' or consultants' fees that stem from this exercise come only after tendering for the work that has to be done?

No. I think that it has been decided who will undertake the scrutinies, as is the normal practice. Without accepting what the hon. Gentleman said about the scrutiny of the Victora and Albert museum, I can assure him that the scrutineers have every intention of making exhaustive visits to both organisations.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether any changes have been made by the Arts Council in the touring budget following his statement of 20 December 1982, Official Report, column 664–65.

The current allocation for touring in England in 1982–83 is £7·5 million, including an additional sum of £400,000 provided from the supplementary grant announced on 20 December 1982. The touring budget for 1983–84 is £7,865,000.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his care about touring. Does he recognise that one of the distressing aspects of the saga of the visit of the Royal opera house to Manchester was its on—and-off nature, despite the great deal of investment and commitment that the operation received? Is he prepared to say that with the new arrangements people will be able much more to rely upon the visits taking place, instead of the previous rather doubtful prospect?

I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I am pleased to say that the Royal opera company has been able to announce that its visit to Manchester will take place later this year. We must all hope that it will be a tremendous success. Future plans will be discussed in detail with everyone concerned, including the Greater Manchester council and the city of Manchester. I hope that we can avoid future uncertainties in this way.

Bearing in mind the outrage in Greater Manchester when the Royal opera house originally called off its visit, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that we should say publicly in the House that we think it should be an annual obligation on the national companies to tour in this way, and that they should not merely return to touring when they have been bailed out by the payment of a one-off sum?

Most of the national companies tour extensively. The Royal opera house has special problems, including enormous costs. There are those who consider that the money could be better spent than on tours by the Royal opera house. I accept that the national companies have an obligation to tour.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what was the total Arts Council grant to theatres in the last year for which figures are available.

The Arts Council estimates that its grants to theatres in Great Britain in 1982–83 will total just under £26·3 million compared with the previous year's total of nearly £23·1 million.

I welcome the increase that my right hon. Friend has mentioned and I thank him for it. Does he agree that the Royal Shakespeare company has given outstanding service to the arts in both London and Stratford on Avon and in tours around the world? What specific help is the Arts Council giving the company in grants this year?

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend about the Royal Shakespeare company. This year it received an extra settlement of £850,000 from the supplementary grant that I announced on 20 December 1982. It is to receive grant next year of £3·6 million as opposed to £3 million last year. Extra money has been made available to it, exceptionally, of nearly £1½million.

Is it not true that there is a clear emphasis in allocation of Arts Council grants towards the more affluent areas, leaving the industrial areas very often culturally deprived? What will the Minister do to redress that imbalance, particularly as the quality of life is so closely linked to the pursuit and support of the arts?

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's premise. He may be interested to know that this year the basic grant for the northern area was £1·72 million, which was a rise of 11 per cent. over last year, and that in addition it received a further £60,000 in supplementary grants. There has thus been a substantial increase for the north.