asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many passengers were handled at Cardiff-Wales airport in (a) 1979 and (b) 1983.

The number of passengers handled at Cardiff-Wales airport has increased from 260,553 in 1979 to 385,064 in 1983—an increase of almost 48 per cent.

First, I associate myself with my right hon. Friend's expression of sorrow.

The intention is to establish the freeport in the dock area of Cardiff, but we shall certainly consider the possibility of making the facilities available to air traffic using Cardiff airport.

I, too, was sorry to hear of the sudden death of Mr. Ioan Evans. He will be greatly missed in the House. He was loyal to this Chamber and will be missed by colleagues on both sides. He will also be missed by many people in Wales. My sympathy goes to Mrs. Evans and the family.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the deep sadness at the death of Ioan Evans is not confined to Welsh Members of Parliament?

As my hon. Friend is well aware, the development of Stansted airport is not a matter for me.

On behalf of Plaid Cymru, I associate myself with the words of condolence that have been expressed at the very sad bereavement suffered by Mr. Ioan Evans' family. It came as a great shock to Members in all parts of the House, who had great respect for him. Indeed, when he closed the debate last Wednesday night we were remarking on the diligence and hard work that he had put into preparing for that debate. He was a diligent Member, especially at Question Time. I am sure that we all wish our feelings to be conveyed to his family.

I thank the Secretary of State for his generous remarks regarding Mr. Ioan Evans. I take this opportunity, on behalf of my Opposition colleagues, to say that Ioan Evans was a superb parliamentarian who made one of his finest speeches only last Wednesday. He was a lion-hearted fighter for social justice and a dedicated fighter for the valleys of south east Wales.

Order. On behalf of myself and my deputies, I should like to say how closely we associate ourselves with what has been said about Mr. Ioan Evans.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he next proposes to meet the chairman of the Welsh water authority.

My right hon. Friend last met the chairman on Tuesday 24 January, and has no immediate plans for a further meeting.

With reference to the Department's response to the Select Committee's report, why has the Minister so signally failed to bring forward measures to achieve equalisation of water charges and to give water rate rebates?

The matters to which the hon. Gentleman refers in connection with the Select Committee report were dealt with in the Government's response to that report. I dare say that we shall have an opportunity to discuss those matters in a debate on Welsh day and, possibly, in the Welsh Grand Committee.

There is undoubtedly scope for amending the system of water charges, but would it not be very difficult to sell to consumers in Wales the idea of introducing a standing charge?

The Welsh water authority is aware of that problem. It has been, and still is, discussing its new tariff arrangements with local consumer committees.

Will the Minister arrange to meet the chairman as quickly as possible and tell him that the proposal to levy an additional rate on those who rent or own rivers will hit the Welsh fishery associations very hard and that there is great opposition among anglers everywhere to this additional burden?

I am sure that the chairman of the Welsh water authority will note what the hon. Gentleman said. The matter is under consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is serious public concern about the proposed reorganisation of the Welsh water authority? Does he agree that the creation of a north Wales operating division, not at Mold but at Bangor, away from industrial and population centres, is bound to reduce the service to domestic and industrial users, and that the transfer of laboratory facilities from Chester to Caernarfon, also away from industrial centres, will increase the problems of pollution control, which are particularly worrying in view of the recent contamination of the River Dee?

I do not think that all Gwynedd Members would agree with my hon. Friend. The internal reorganisation of the Welsh water authority is a matter for the authority. It is not a matter in which my right hon. Friend can intervene. However, if the reorganisation leads to cost reductions, it will be welcomed by Welsh water rate payers.

When the Minster meets the chairman of the water authority, will he discuss with him the pollution of all fishery rivers in Wales, especially the four serious incidents last year in the River Mawddach, which is in my constituency? Will the Welsh Office ensure that there is adequate funding for anti-pollution and anti-poaching in measures those rivers?

Those are matters for the authority. We are aware that it pays proper regard to pollution. I am sure that it is fully aware of the incidents in the River Mawddach.

I am aware that the equalisation of charges is a substantial issue which requires long-term consideration, but will the Welsh Office reconsider rebates? As rebates are available to water consumers in Scotland, is there any reason why they should not also be available in Wales?

My hon. Friend is aware that it is possible to give rebates to people who receive supplementary benefit, but any rebate in a system which is devised by a water authority must be paid for by other consumers. My hon. Friend will know that partial equalisation was tried and that it failed.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of the water authority, will he seek an assurance that no more white elephants, such as that built at Haverfordwest, will be built so that the disruption to some of my constituents, who will now have to move to Haverfordwest to work, will not happen again?

I am afraid that we are back to the internal reorganisation of the authority, which is a matter for the authority. The Government are satisfied that the newly-created authority, which came into being in April 1982, is fully equipped to carry out its own reorganisation and to come to a proper judgment upon it.

Has the Minister undertaken to publish the report on pollution in north east Wales?

It is premature for me to give any such assurance.

rose—

Order. I have allowed a good run on this question, as I understand that it is of great importance to Welsh Members. The House will understand if we now get on rather more rapidly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will establish a programme for raising the weight capacity of Welsh rural bridges.

No special programme is needed for trunk road bridges in Wales, which will continue to be strengthened or replaced as necessary as part of the normal programme. Bridges on county roads are the responsibility of the relevant local highway authority.

Will my hon. Friend consider having consultations with all the Welsh counties to co-ordinate a joint review of the weight capacity of the bridges which are the counties' responsibility, as the trend to larger lorry loads frequently forces inconvenient loading and unloading of agricultural loads miles away from some farmsteads?

A new code on the assessment of bridges will be promulgated shortly. It is not possible at this stage to say what implications it will have, but any need for additional resources for bridge repair will be considered carefully. My officials are in constant touch with county engineers.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions he has had with the chairman of the British Steel Corporation; and what subjects were discussed.

I have met the chairman of the British Steel Corporation on two occasions recently and discussed a range of matters relating to the industry in Wales.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman, will he tell him that we in south Wales are fed up with persistent rumours about the possible closure of Llanwern? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the chairman that he should ensure that his top executives do not speculate idly about these matters or exercise their long-standing prejudice against this great works? Does he agree that, more than anything else, the workers at Llanwern deserve a hearty slap on the back for a job well done?

The hon. Gentleman should not join in the speculation on a range of issues, including this one. The British Steel Corporation has not put forward any proposals of that sort and has not yet submitted its corporate plan. I join the hon. Gentleman in his congratulatory remarks about the performance of Llanwern in the past year or two.

Does the Secretary of State recognise that when my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr Hughes) raises this issue, he speaks not only for those in Newport but for a much wider area? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that a closure or rundown at Llanwern would be unthinkable, that the idea should be killed stone dead and that Llanwern should have every encouragement to make its contribution to the recovery, when it comes?

I have seen no proposal or suggestion that Llanwern might be closed. We are awaiting the submissions of the BSC, which has made it clear to us that it wants to review its corporate strategy following the breakdown of the United States steel negotiations. I have maintained the closest possible contact with those involved. I recently met the unions at Llanwern and Port Talbot, and I am in close touch with local management. I share the right hon. Gentleman's interest and anxiety about the matter. He may rest assured that I shall continue to follow events extremely closely.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, after the success of the slimline programme since 1980, Llanwern has the potential, with the right investment, to become one of the most efficient steel plants not only in Europe but possibly in the world?

It has become a very competitive steel plant, but it will have to continue to make efforts to maintain that position in a world that does not stand still. I agree that further investment in concast could make a considerable difference to those efforts.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that Wales has already paid a stunning price in steel job losses—about 30,000 since 1979? Is not the existing hot strip mill capacity in south Wales vital to the south Wales economy? Will he give a specific pledge that the Llanwern mill is safe for the rest of the century?

We have two of the most competitive steel plants in Europe, and that is a matter for congratulation. So long as they remain among the most competitive steel plants in Europe, there need be no fear about their future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in the light of representations he has received from individuals, local authorities and hon. Members since 1 January, he is satisfied that local authorities in Wales have sufficient resources to meet their requirements for 1984–85.

Yes, Sir.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has received several hundred letters within the past three months complaining about the lack of resources for Welsh housing authorities to meet the enormous demand for house renovation grants? Will he further confirm that about 100,000 families in Wales are on the waiting list for grants, and that some of them will have to wait until 1988 or 1989 to get grants which the Government boasted during the general election were available to them? Is that not disgraceful?

The Government have enormously increased the finance available for improvement grants, which reached a substantial level in the past year. Large sums are still available to local authorities for the coming year. If they treat as urgent the job of completing the sale of council houses, they will have a very large sum of money to spend on that important task.

Has not the Secretary of State brutally slashed the block grants of the district authorities in Wales? May I remind him that he has slashed the block grants in Alyn and Deeside by £266,000, in Delyn by £375,000, in Cardiff by £1·3 million, in south Pembrokeshire by 15 per cent., and in Swansea by £750,000?

No. As was explained in the rate support grant debate last week, we have reallocated resources between districts and counties on the basis of the last round of expenditure by the districts. That is the sensible way to proceed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new jobs were created in the Shotton and Deeside travel-to-work areas, respectively, during the last 12 months as a direct result of selective financial assistance, the allocation of Government factories and urban development grant.

Between 1 January and 31 December 1983 projects in the Shotton travel-to-work area for which offers of selective financial assistance were accepted or which were allocated Government-financed factory space promise 930 jobs.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the good progress being made in job creation will be completely undermined if Clwyd county council proceeds with its proposed 24p—16 per cent.—rate increase? Is he aware that Courtauld's Greenfield mill in my constituency has said that it cannot pay its increased £56,000 bill without making 10 or 11 men redundant? If the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) is to retain a shred of credibility as Labour's chief spokesman for Wales, is it not time that he came down off the fence and condemned outright a rate increase that will destroy jobs?

As many Opposition Members have said that rate increases are of little or no significance to industry, we are entitled to listen to what Mr. Davies, the head of Courtauld's Greenfield mill, has to say. He says that the mill has undertaken an enormous amount of hard work recently, and in addition:

"We are not in profit, we are breaking even and I am now going to find my manufacturing costs increasing between £50,000 and £60,000."

Although I welcome every prospect of new jobs in the Clwyd area, may I ask the Secretary of State to instruct the chairman of the Welsh water authority not to allow the closure of its offices at Mold, with the loss of 200 jobs? What is the Secretary of State doing inside the Government to ensure the provision of launch aid for the A320 at Broughton?

I announced recently a considerable amount of new investment in that part of Wales. There will be further expenditure on the Maelor creamery in north east Wales, and Tetra-pak has also announced further investment there. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Government are considering the airbus and that we expect to make an announcement fairly soon.

Does the Secretary of State accept that many of us who represent or have interests in Clwyd support the attempts of the local authority to maintain its high standards of service? In both personal social services and education Clwyd has set a lead for Wales over the years, and the Opposition do not wish those services to be cut.

We appreciate much of the work that is being done by Clwyd, but we have given it a massive allocation of resources under the urban programme. When the urban development grants are announced—I believe tomorrow—Clwyd will discover that there is a further allocation of resources to that part of Wales. I repeat what I said in the House last week, and what I have said today, that the rate increases proposed by Clwyd can do nothing but damage to industry and commerce in that area.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for the development of transport and transport infrastructure in Wales.

The Government's strategy for the development of the road network in Wales is set out in "Roads in Wales 1983"—a copy of which is in the Library of the House. As for public transport in Wales generally, we propose to issue a consultation paper about possible changes in responsibilities for transport services.

The announcement of a consultation paper will be widely welcomed in Wales. Will the Minister do all that he can to ensure that there are no irrevocable changes in transport infrastructure in Wales before the consultation process has been completed?

Yes, I think that I can give that assurance. It is a consultation paper, but it would not be profitable to speculate on its content in advance of publication. There will be full consultation.

What representations, if any, has the Minister made to the chairman of British Rail regarding the future of the mid-Wales line, the Cambrian coast line, and the Shrewsbury to Llanelli line to ensure that more money is spent on those lines and that services are improved?

Consultations are continuing on those subjects.

Does the Minister accept that an important part of the infrastructure of Gwynedd is the port of Holyhead, and that there is considerable fear in Holyhead about the privatisation of Sealink? Can the hon. Gentleman assure us that his Department has been involved in this matter, and can he give a guarantee that there will be no job losses at Sealink?

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an assurance on the second part of his supplementary. As he knows, the Government intend to privatise Sealink. I hope that that will strengthen the position in Holyhead.

May I tell the Minister of State of British Rail's miserable and disgraceful decision to single-track 12 miles of the Wrexham to Bidston railway line this coming year, although it told me in a letter late last year that it would be 1988–89? Will he instruct British Rail's executives to think again and initiate meaningful consultations? What will the Minister of State do to help my very worried constituents?

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the single-tracking of that line is a matter for the Railways Board. It considers that the current and anticipated traffic can be accommodated on single track. I have noted the point made by the hon. Gentleman. We have discussed the matter previously.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the projected fall in pupil numbers in maintained secondary schools in Wales from 1983 to 1987, and from 1983 to 1992.

Between 1983 and 1987 the projected fall in maintained secondary school pupil numbers is 25,900 and between 1983 and 1992 52,700.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that those figures show the opportunities that are available to local education authorities to plan so as to improve services in the secondary sector at the same time as making economies?

I agree with my hon. Friend. I do not, however, underestimate the difficulties faced by local education authorities in taking surplus places out of use. At the same time, that is an opportunity and a challenge.

Does the Minister agree that, as a result of the much reduced rate support grant settlement to Welsh local authorities, a percentage of the lower numbers in secondary schools will be denied the free school transport that they now enjoy because local authorities will be forced to trim to the statutory limit? There will be 10,000 pupils in west Glamorgan who will be denied free school transport in the coming year.

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's point. I have noted it, and, of course, such policy decisions are a matter for the local education authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of (a) capital and (b) revenue expenditure to be incurred during 1984–85 on the development of the bone marrow transplant unit at the Heath hospital, Cardiff.

A total of £100,000 has been allocated for 1984–85, of which about £20,000 will be for conversion works.

Does the Minister accept that, following his announcement of the establishment of this unit, there is considerable disquiet in the Principality about the proposed timetable for its completion? That disquiet is shared by the leukaemia research appeal for Wales and Dr. Whittaker the consultant at the Heath hospital? Will the Minister reconsider that timetable and the giving of further funds, so that the unit can reach its maximum potential within 12 months and not five years?

It is certainly not five years, it is two years. We believe that it is wise to take two years to reach the full 20 transplants a year that are expected. It is not solely a question of pumping money into the unit. There is the problem of training staff and obtaining supporting services and equipment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales in the latest year for which figures are available.

The latest year for which outturn figures are available is 1982–83. In that year gross expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales was £766·6 million.

Will the Minister accept what he apparently failed to accept in our exchanges recently in the Western Mail, namely, that the overall budget of the National Health Service in Wales is underfunded and that, were the RAWP formula, which is available for English regions, operating for the total NHS revenue in Wales, Wales would have an additional 7 per cent. of total funding?

I am sorry that evidently the hon. Gentleman has not seen the reply that was published to his letter in the Western Mail—or at least he has not absorbed its contents. What that letter said, as I shall now make clear, is that Wales has moved, during the period of this Government, to almost exactly the share suggested by Professor Maynard's calculations, and that does not take into account the substantial growth of about 2 per cent. in the revenue resources to be provided to district health authorities next year.

When will the allocations to health authorities be announced?

I have today notified health authorities in Wales of their provisional revenue allocations for next year. No authority is being allocated a base line which is less than its current year's provision, uplifted for pay and price movements, and most will be better off. All authorities in Wales will have available to them additional funds to finance new developments in 1984–85. The total of hospital and community health revenue provision will be about 2 per cent. more than in 1983–84.

rose—

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the totally unsatisfactory nature of that reply—

Order. We are still discussing the question.

With regard to the allocations that the Minister has just announced, has he any proposals for the establishment of facilities in Wales that will cater for patients whose homes and families are in the Principality but who are presently accommodated in hospitals such as Rampton? If not, when will he make such provision available?

We are considering the whole question of secure accommodation in our hospitals in Wales. We have recently made a spate of announcements and we shall undoubtedly be making an announcement about that matter in the not too distant future.

In view of the totally unsatisfactory and incomprehensible nature of the Minister's answer, I beg to give notice that I shall seek leave to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation regarding the future of the Llanwern steelworks.

I met representatives of the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation on 30 January. We discussed the achievements of Llanwern to date and the prospects for future investment at the plant.

I am glad that my right hon. Friend has mentioned that the representations referred to the positive successes at Llanwern. As an example of that, since the closure of Shotton, Llanwern has captured 15 per cent. of the entire vitreous enamel market, as compared with a previous figure of nought per cent. That is a sign of success. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should lead from example and that success will lead to further success?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The facts concerning Llanwern are clear. As a result of streamlining, the man hours per tonne have improved from 7·0 in 1980 to about half that figure in recent months. Indeed, the best figure for any one month was 3·2 and the average over the year was 3·6. That is a striking record of progress, and I am sure that every effort will be made to maintain it and improve on it still further.

Will the Secretary of State ensure that we maintain the strip mill capacity that we now have in Wales? If not, will he, like his colleague the Secretary of State for Scotland, offer his resignation if there is pressure to close either of the works in Wales?

I have no intention of offering my resignation against a threat that has not even been made, and still less of informing the hon. Gentleman about it at the outset of the proceedings.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on progress made to date with the sale of council houses to sitting tenants in Wales.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on 23 January 1984.

Does my hon. Friend agree that Welsh local authorities have made very good progress in pursuing the Government's right-to-buy policy? Does he further agree that it is very much to their advantage to do so?

I agree with my hon. Friend on both points. The receipts from the sales already made have increased the capital sources available to local authorities by over £100 million, and it clearly remains in their interests, as my right hon. Friend said, to maintain a vigorous sales policy.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the radiotherapy facilities available to National Health Service cancer patients in North Wales.

As my hon. Friend is aware, radiotherapy facilities for National Health Service cancer patients in north Wales are provided at Clatterbridge hospital in the Mersey regional health authority. There are difficulties, but I understand that proposals for creating a better level of radiotherapy service at Clatterbridge will be put to Mersey regional health authority at its next meeting. Welsh Office officials will report to me as a matter of urgency the decisions of the authority, and the effects that these will have on patients in north Wales.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there will be some relief at the urgency with which he is tackling the problem? Is it not worrying that cancer patients in north Wales should be at the mercy of the Mersey health authority conducting its affairs sufficiently efficiently to maintain the existence of vital treatment facilities?

I understand that financial provision for the Mersey regional health authority takes into account the fact that it provides services to patients from north Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received since his announcement on 19 January about bone marrow transplantation and cardiology and cardiac surgery at the University hospital of Wales.

I have received no direct representations from district health authorities or the general public. I have seen seven copies of a letter which the secretary of the leukaemia research appeal for Wales in Caerphilly has sent to Welsh Members and to the Welsh Office's chief medical officer; I have also answered during the past week 11 parliamentary questions from the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies).

Despite some suggestions to the contrary, I feel that my right hon. Friend's statement in answer to my question on 19 January has been widely welcomed throughout Wales. On the subject of cardiology and cardiac surgery, will my hon. Friend expand on the significance of this extra funding for the NHS?

My hon. Friend is, of course, referring to the announcement about the development of cardiothoracic facilities at the Heath hospital, Cardiff. The existing facilities for cardiology at Llandough hospital will be transferred to the Heath site to provide a single integrated unit. The capacity of that unit will increase from 500 operations per year to approximately 1,100 operations per year. It is proposed that more money be set aside for the needs of the existing unit for services in 1984–85, and the detailed planning is starting now.

If there is no disquiet which the Minister has been able to recognise concerning the establishment of the bone marrow transplant unit, can he explain why on 25 January the consultant haematologist at the University hospital of Wales wrote to the chief administrative officer raising a number of queries, and explaining to the chief administrative officer his reservations about the timetable?

As I said in my answer to the question, the concern appeared to be limited to the area of Caerphilly, represented by the hon. Gentleman. The bone marrow transplant unit has been developed very quickly, which I am sure many people will welcome. It was only in October last year that the relevant United Kingdom committee decided that bone marrow transplants should be carried out on a regional basis. The Welsh Office has moved very fast. I know the views of the consultant concerned, but he is not the only person to express a medical opinion. We were bound to come to the decision that we have reached, to phase in the increase in treatment over a two-year period.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many churches, within the responsibility of the Church Commissioners, with the equivalent grading to secular listed buildings, have been demolished.

The total number of listed redundant churches which have been demolished since 1969 is 53. Of these, 11 were ungraded, 21 in grade C, 20 in grade B and 1 in grade A. In none of these cases was demolition opposed by the Advisory Board for Redundant Churches.

I thank my hon. Friend for that information and welcome the fact that only one grade A church has been demolished since 1969. Can my hon. Friend confirm that the Church Commissioners use every practicable means and take every possible care to find alternative uses for churches that are made redundant, and that demolition is permitted only if there is no practical economic alternative to saving them?

Yes, and that is why, as my hon. Friend will recall, when I answered his question on 7 March about the same period I was able to show him that 53 per cent. of such churches had been put to new uses, 20 per cent. preserved and only 27 per cent. demolished.

Given the importance of the ecclesiastical exemption from planning law, will the hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that he will seek to persuade the Leader of the House that we should debate in the House the jurisdiction report which was published last week?

I know that the hon. Gentleman understands that matters concerning debates in the House are not for me. Presumably that report NA, ill first be debated by the General Synod. I am sure that the powers that be in the House will have heard what the hon. Gentleman has said.

Is it not meant to be the case that the Church was founded on God and not God upon the Church? Would it not be better if redundant churches were demolished, instead of being kept as useless monuments, and the money used to keep the Church in being?

With respect to my hon. Friend, a large number of people would deeply regret the injury to our heritage if some of our architectural jewels, which are the inheritance of the Church, were demolished. I do, however, see that a balance should be kept in all these matters.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners. when and where the Church Commissioners will next be meeting; and if he will make a statement.

The commissioners' board of governors and committees meet regularly and the annual general meeting of the commissioners will be held on 26 June this year at Lambeth palace.

Will my hon. Friend invite the Church Commissioners at their next meeting to send a commendation, official of unofficial, to all those bishops who fought so valiantly in the other place to prevent the reduction in the divorce waiting period from three years to one year, thereby preserving the sanctity of marriage?

I know that the Church Commissioners as such have no responsibility for this measure, and I also know that many Anglicans were deeply upset by the somewhat intemperate words used about some of the bishops by my noble Friend the Lord Chancellor.

When the commissioners next meet, will my hon. Friend think of inviting my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Beaumont-Dark) and other similar philistines so that the Church Commissioners can explain to them the enormous value of our historic churches and how men and women in succeeding ages have sought to express their worship and devotion in that way? Perhaps the philistine will be enlightened.

I am happy to say that, as my presence among them shows, the Church Commissioners are made up of all shades of opinion.

Will the Church Commissioners be discussing the serious problem of low pay among clergy? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, despite the increase in the size of parishes, the pay of clergy has remained abysmally low? Does he agree that, although pay has been increased periodically in the past five years, though only by very small sums, many clergy continue to suffer severe financial hardship in the present economic conditions?

I think that I would claim for the Church Commissioners that they have secured what might almost be described as a revolution in the levels of stipend and, equally important, pension over the last years. However, inherited income produces a decreasing proportion of the money necessary and, therefore, a heavier burden rightly falls each year on the laity of the Church of England.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, whether, in view of the discrepancy between temperatures recorded in the Central Lobby and the statutory maxima which apply elsewhere, he will discuss with the Property Services Agency the effect on the working conditions of the staff for whom he is responsible of the temperatures in the House.

I have been asked to reply.

When my hon. Friend next consults the authorities, will he explain that the Committee Rooms, offices and many of the meeting rooms in this Palace are so superheated that they are 10 per cent. or more above the permitted maxima outside the Palace? At a time when we are seeking to save energy and costs, perhaps we should take some leave.

My hon. Friend has real cause for complaint, but if he wishes to pursue the matter, it should not be done through the Commission, but direct with the PSA, which I know will help.

Despite what my hon. Friend has said, may I sustain the complaint of my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, North (Mr. Speller)? This place is much too hot. It should be about 10 degrees cooler. If some people feel too cold, they can always put more clothes on, but there is a limit to the number of clothes that one can take off.

That is very valuable information, which I shall certainly pass on to the PSA and I shall explain with what vehemence it was put across. Of course, if the kitchen is too hot, one can always get out of it.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what proposals the Minister for the Arts has for increasing the resources available to Northern Arts.

It is for the Arts Council to determine the allocation of its resources.

Is the Minister aware that there has been a 5 per cent. increase in the allocation for Northern Arts, which is quite inadequate for the needs of the region? In view of the hammering that the Northern region takes from the economic policies of the Government, does the Minister agree that compensatory action in respect of the arts would be very helpful? As the Minister was willing to designate certain sums for opera, following the Priestley scrutiny, will he make representations for a similar exercise to be undertaken in the regions of the country, or at least for the three countries of Scotland, Wales and England?

I shall, of course, report to my noble Friend what the hon. Member has said. My noble Friend is, indeed, meeting representatives of Northern Arts the day after tomorrow, having met them briefly last month, and he will undoubtedly be discussing these issues with them. I shall certainly pass on what the hon. Member has said.

While I note the claim of the hon. Member for Easington (Mr. Dormand) for extra resources for Northern Arts, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he is satisfied with the distribution of grants that are available to the area of East Anglia—

Order. The question is about Northern Arts.

Has the Minister not yet made an estimate of the needs of the various regional arts associations, including Northern Arts? If by some mischance the Government's legislation to abolish the metropolitan counties is enacted, will he come to the House with some specific proposals to give hope to people in these regions about sustaining the arts?

My noble Friend has put two of the biggest arts organisations in the northern area, the Laing gallery and Opera North, on the discussion paper list for central support. The subject which he will be discussing with Northern Arts is whether there is any need to go further in central funding. The role of the arts associations in the regime, after abolition of the metropolitan counties, is currently under discussion.

With respect to the Minister's answer on Northern Arts, may I ask him whether he will kindly refrain from shirking his responsibilities and saying, in effect, that the matter is entirely for the Arts Council? The funding of Northern Arts has been grossly neglected by the Government. Cannot the Government take an initiative to increase funding for Northern Arts?

I strongly rebut the idea that direct Government intervention in the affairs of the Arts Council would be a matter of my noble Friend carrying out his proper "responsibilities". It is a fundamental principle of our subsidisation of the arts that the Arts Council operates at arm's length from the Government.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Government have yet come to a decision on the request by the Greek Government for the return of the Parthenon marbles.

A formal reply to the Greek Government's request will be given soon.

Is there any legal barrier to the return of the marbles? If there is, will the Government consider putting the matter to Parliament for a fresh decision so that we may make restitution to the Greek people for what Lord Elgin did at the beginning of the last century? After all, how would the Minister react if some foreign, aristocratic kleptomaniac stole the Crown jewels?

I am beginning to find it difficult to think of new neutral replies on this subject. There is a legal bar to the return of the Elgin marbles in the British Museum Act.

Does my hon. Friend agree that whereas the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) are at liberty to do what they like with their own marbles, they are not free to dispose of other people's?

I think that it missed the attention of the Leader of the Opposition that the marbles did not belong to him. Perhaps the Welsh national gallery, which has a famous collection of Monets, will be a little nervous in case the right hon. Gentleman goes to France for his next holiday.

Had the request for the return of the Elgin marbles come from the Greek military Government to a British Labour Government, does my right hon. Friend think that the response of the Leader of the Opposition would have been rather different from his surrender to the siren charms of Melina Mercouri?

I dread to contemplate what the right hon. Gentleman might think up under different circumstances. It is difficult enough to keep up with him under the present ones.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what percentage of artistic objects held in British national collections have their provenance in other countries within the European Community.

It would not be possible to assemble this information without disproportionate cost. But the proportion is undoubtedly a large one, and many of the objects in question are important parts of the national heritage.

Following the replies just given by my hon. Friend, does he not see the Leader of the Opposition as perhaps starting an important new initiative in this difficult year for EEC reform? If, for example, we gave the Gutenberg bibles back to Germany but asked for the Bayeux tapestry from France, who knows what might happen in the EEC in this difficult year—or does my hon. Friend think that the Leader of the Opposition is merely campaigning to give Stonehenge back to the native Welsh mountains from which it was hewn?

I think that the right hon. Gentleman was not rationally campaigning in any direction as much as being carried away by enthusiasm. But if anyone went into the National Gallery, he would have to reach room 34 before finding any British school works of art. We have quite a number of rooms to return to different places round the world.

asked the Under-Secretay of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Minister for the Arts has had any discussions with the trustees of national museums about the reintroduction of admission charges.

My noble Friend has had no general discussions on this subject. He is considering with the national maritime museum the implications of its proposal to introduce admission charges from 1 April 1984.

Does my hon. Friend agree that realistic admission charges, retained by the museums, would provide a valuable additional source of finance and should be encouraged?

It remains the Government's policy that if the trustees of any museum wish to put forward proposals they will be discussed with them.

If the Government's proposals for the abolition of the GLC go through, what will be the position of the Horniman museum? The Government's proposals are that it should be transferred to the British museum. Bearing in mind that the Horniman museum was given to the old London county council in perpetuity as a free museum, what will be the policy if the: British museum decides to introduce an admission charge?

The trustees of the British museum in those circumstances would put forward proposals. Presumably if that was not in the foundation charter of the Horniman museum, they would not put forward such proposals.

Has my hon. Friend had discussions on this matter with the trustees of the five university museums, whose needs and problems are still inadequately appreciated by the Government?

I remember from my previous job the problems of the university museums and their relationship with the University Grants Committee. I shall draw those continuing problems to the attention not only of my noble Friend but, more directly, of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science.

Does the Minister accept that at a time of great unemployment it would be better to encourage people to go to museums instead of trying to put restrictions in their way in the form of any charge for admission?

It is a matter for the people who are running the museums. Ironically, many of the exhibitions for which there are charges are exceedingly well attended. If trustees of museums think it in their best interests to make such proposals, it would be wrong of the Government not to consider them seriously.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what is Her Majesty's Government's response to the request of the Greek Government for the return of the Elgin Marbles.

I refer my hon. Friend to my reply earlier today.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Greek Government's request would have been more credible if it had landed on the desks of the Governments of all nine countries that hold Elgin marbles?

It is perhaps a little confusing to say "hold Elgin marbles". It would perhaps be better to say "hold parts of the Parthenon marbles". The point is well taken. There are several other European countries which have significant parts of the marbles which were formerly on the Parthenon.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the inadequate time that we have had at Welsh Question Time to deal with the number of important questions that are down on the Order Paper today, particularly those dealing with unemployment? Will you give serious consideration to extending Welsh Question Time?

Order. The amount of time for Welsh questions is a matter for the usual channels. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was present earlier when we were discussing questions Nos. 1 and 2, but I allowed a fairly long run on the subject of the Welsh water authority, and I then said that we would have to get on. As a matter of interest to the hon. Gentleman, and perhaps to other Welsh Members, I think I managed, with the exception of the hon. Member for Clwyd, South-West (Mr. Harvey), to ensure that every hon. Member with a question on the Order Paper was called.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, and in support of it. Would it not be better, in view of the growing interest in Arts Question Time, if a special time allocation were made for the Arts that was somewhat longer than we have at present? That would allow a longer time for Welsh questions.

I say again that the allocation of time is a matter for the usual channels.