asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many casualties, fatal and non-fatal, have occurred in the past five years on the A55 road at Bodelwyddan.

There have been eight fatal and 46 non-fatal casualties. My right hon. Friend has written to my hon. Friend explaining measures put in hand following advice from the county council.

I offer my hon. Friend the warmest possible congratulations on his accession to high office and his emergence from the dark dens off the Members' Lobby.

This is not promotion; it is demotion from the Whips Office.

I assure my hon. Friend that he will have the sympathy and support of Conservative Members and a great deal of sympathy and affection from hon. Members on both sides of the House.—[Horn. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]

I thank my hon. Friend for those kind words of welcome on my first appearance at the Dispatch Box in my new role. The Government are pressing on as rapidly as possible to the long-term solution to this problem, which will be the bypass.

rose—

Order. I will call the hon. Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse), but I remind him that the question relates to the A55.

The Minister has made a serious omission from these sad figures. Does he agree that, as a result of what has happened this weekend and the conspiracy between the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales, two further casualties have taken place in north Wales? I am referring to the independent-minded Tory Members who are being murdered by the Secretary of State and his gang.

There is much sympathy for many hon. Members who are facing such problems. However, they are not part of the responsibility of the Welsh Office.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current level of unemployment in (a) Wales and (b) Mid-Glamorgan; and what are the corresponding figures for the same dates in 1982 and 1981, respectively.

On 10 February 1983 unemployed claimants totalled 178,077 in Wales, compared with 165,170 and 137,312 in February 1982 and 1981 respectively. On 10 February 1983 the number of unemployed claimants in mid-Glamorgan was 33,440. Earlier comparable figures are not available, but in February 1982 and 1981 the number of unemployed registrants totalled 33,686 and 27,809 respectively.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the figures show an unemployment rate for mid-Glamorgan of 17 per cent.? Will he take note that In the Bargoed travel-to-work area in my constituency the current figure is 20 per cent. unemployed—one in five? Nearly every house has someone unemployed residing within it. Will the Minister consider this, not from a political stance, but on grounds of pure humanity, as a problem which he could and should do something to solve?

I confirm the figures. I have not checked the detailed statistics. The Government share the hon. Member's concern about the figures. I have described to the House on numerous occasions—as recently as the last Welsh day debate—the measures that are being taken. I have noted the measures proposed by the Social Democrats. They do not appear to be radical. A high spot among the proposals is that the Government should eliminate the jobs tax imposed by a previous Labour Cabinet of which the leaders of the hon. Gentleman's party were prominent members.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with Chancellor Helmut Kohl who said yesterday that the market economy, and not the state, has the best remedies for unemployment?

I entirely agree. The most encouraging feature of the present very difficult circumstances in Wales is that, despite the severity of the recession, many new companies have been setting up in, and moving into, Wales, which suggests that as we move out of the recession Wales will be extremely well placed to take advantage of the upturn and the successes of the market economy.

Do not the figures that the Secretary of State has given the House show clearly that if we leave matters to market forces unemployment in Wales is unlikely to be reduced? Will he confirm that, despite the figures that he gave, the seasonal trend of unemployment is still upwards and that even if we manage to continue the monthly reduction of unemployment by 2,500, which apparently occurred last month, it will still take about four years to get back to the employment levels that existed when the right hon. Gentleman took office?

Of course we are all concerned with high unemployment in the recession. The problem can be found in many countries. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is as pleased as I am that there was a reduction in unemployment last month. I believe that the fact that unemployment has risen so much less severely in Wales than in other parts of the United Kingdom during the recession and that we have been successful in changing our industrial base during that time offers considerable hope for the future. Certainly there are no easy solutions, and that must be apparent to the representative of a party that has found unemployment higher when leaving office on every occasion that it has been in government since the war.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the ratio in 1978

The ratio was 21·9:1 in January 1982 compared with 22·6:1 in 1978

Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures show a satisfactory improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio over the past four years? Do they not belie the Opposition's gloomy propaganda about education in Wales?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The comparisons with previous years and with the ratio in England are very good.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the improved figures are due entirely to falling rolls? As many teachers are on the dole, would it not be a good idea to put them back into the classrooms to reduce the ratio further and to give our youngsters the same opportunities that are available in schools in the private sector which can buy better pupil-teacher ratios? Is that not the best way forward?

There will be a possibility of increased teacher training in future. It is a matter that we have very much in mind. When economic circumstances allow we should like to reduce the number of unemployed teachers as rapidly as possible. That is our policy.

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new responsibilities. We hope that he will have a happy sojourn at the Welsh Office. We should like to make it a short one, but we wish him well and are glad to see him here.

The hon. Gentleman knows that recent reports have shown that educational standards are being maintained. That has been made clear by the HMI reports, and it is generally accepted in the profession. The fall in resources has been nothing like comparable with the reduction in rolls. We are giving attention to those matters and we shall continue to maintain standards in Welsh education.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether, in the light of the recommendations of the Serpell report, he will take the initiative in convening a conference of management, unions, local authorities and transport users to discuss the future transport needs of Wales.

I have no immediate plans to do so.

The Secretary of State will know of proposals by the Welsh counties and the Wales Consumer Council for a move towards a Welsh transport administration. What is his reaction to those proposals? In view of anxieties about the future of the central Wales line, will the right hon. Gentleman assure us that if, by some mischance, his party is returned at a general election the future of that line will be guaranteed?

No proposals have been made in the Serpell report or elsewhere for closing any lines. The Government's position has been made plain. We have no proposals at the present time for any such changes, so there is no need to refer to a hypothetical situation. As for future changes in the organisation, these are matters that we keep continually under review. There is to be a conference of local authorities and others, to which I shall send observers, and we shall listen to any suggestions made during the debates that will undoubtedly take place over a considerable period on the information contained in the Serpell report.

Does the Secretary of State not appreciate that the people of Wales will be alarmed to hear him say that there are no proposals "at the present time" for any railway closures in Wales? Is he aware of the report in The Guardian, following publication of the Serpell report, that the Treasury is waiting until after the general election before bringing forward closure proposals? The right hon. Gentleman is shaking his head, but will he give a categoric assurance that the Government do not intend, either before or after an election, to close any of the railway lines in Wales marked for closure in the Serpell report?

I do not think that any Government of any party at any time can guarantee that for the future and for ever there will be no change in the services provided. The Serpell report has provided much useful information which will be invaluable in the continuing debate about the sort of transport services that we require, and it should be part of our consideration of those issues to look again at the organisation within Wales and outside and consider the priorities and needs. I shall be doing that.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that open government becomes impossible if the Government cannot publish their alternative options for discussion without it immediately being assumed that the worst option represents the Government's intention?

That is clear. One conclusion to which one might come when reading the Serpell report is that it is impossible to maintain a railway service in this country on any scale without a continuing subsidy. Therefore, the debate can centre rationally and sensibly on the sort of railway service that we want and the extent of the subsidy.

The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government had no proposals to close railway lines at the present moment and that he regarded the Serpell report as useful. Would it not be of considerable benefit to the right hon. Gentleman, as the Minister responsible for transport in Wales, to initiate the sort of conference called for by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, East (Mr. Anderson), so that if the right hon. Gentleman has plans for improving transport facilities in Wales he can have the benefit of the advice of all those who know far more about the matter than he is likely to know?

It is a continuing debate. I have responsibility for some aspects of transport, but not others, and it would be sensible for a number of proposals and ideas to be clarified before we have the sort of all-embracing conference that has been suggested. I certainly do not close my mind to the idea of a conference, and I shall be maintaining the closest possible contact with all interested parties in the coming months. I met the chairman of British Rail, Sir Peter Parker, to discuss some of the issues as recently as last month.

Will the Secretary of State at least reject the railway zero-option for Wales, which many of the Serpell proposals would mean? That would at least release some parts of Wales from the misery and fear that I have witnessed at many of the public inquiries that I have attended.

Certainly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will consider using Welsh sporting occasions to encourage foreign inward investment in Wales

All appropriate occasions, sporting or otherwise, are used to promote the attractions of Wales as the ideal location for overseas investment.

Are not the Welsh not only more eloquent but more intelligent and realistic about the outside world than the southern English? Is it not a fact that, for many years, rugby teams from Argentina have come to play against Welsh teams in sporting events? Is it not also true that, in cultural matters, there have been many visitors from Welsh communities in Argentina to eisteddfods? In those circumstances, will the Secretary of State say what he has done in Cabinet to achieve a realist policy towards a Falkland Islands solution? Would it not be better for—

Order. Fair play. The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) must confine himself to foreign inward investment in Wales.

—by the transfer of responsibility for the Falklands from the Foreign Office and Downing street to the Welsh Office?

I know of no proposals for inward investment from Argentina at present, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the Welsh rugby side, by its defeats of Scotland and Ireland, has shown just the type of team spirit, competence and enterprise that will attract to Wales inward investment from all over the world.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the rate of increase between January 1980 and January 1983 in the number of persons unemployed for more than 52 weeks in (a) Wales and (b) west Glamorgan.

Between January 1980 and October 1982 registrants unemployed for more than 52 weeks increased by 197·7 per cent. and 266·8 per cent. in Wales and west Glamorgan respectively. Between October 1982 and January 1983 unemployed claimants in the same category increased by 9 and 7·9 per cent. respectively.

In view of those deeply disturbing figures for a group of unemployed people who do not qualify for the long-term rate of supplementary benefit. and which emphasise the chronic nature of unemployment in west Glamorgan, will the Secretary of State now take steps to designate the whole of the county as a special development area?

I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the unemployment figures, but the relative unemployment figures in west Glamorgan do not support his case. One can be glad that the initiatives that we are taking—the enterprise zone and the new urban development programme for Swansea—are already giving evidence that they will attract new job prospects to the area.

As Governments of the Left and of the Right in all parts of the world are having limited success in their efforts to defeat unemployment, is there not a desperate need for much more international action to ensure a growth of trade and to avoid protectionism, which is a menace to the world?

I certainly share my hon. Friend's view that we must resist the siren voices that call for protectionism. In my travels around the world I notice that job creation activities have been most successful in areas where the free enterprise economy is at its strongest and where controls and constraints are fewest. The area around Greater Boston is an example of the enormous job-creating potential shown by the new industries, which are just the types of industries that we are seeking to attract to Wales.

On the basis of the figures that he has just given does the Secretary of State not realise that, whereas in Wales there has been a tragic trebling of the number of people who have been out of work for more than a year, in west Glamorgan there has been almost a quadrupling of that number? On the basis of these figures, how does the right hon. Gentleman justify not only withholding the special development area status for which my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) asked, but actually removing most of the assisted area status that west Glamorgan enjoyed?

The right hon. Gentleman will know that we set out our reasons for the changes in regional policy when we last reviewed the matter. We had to take account of a wide range of factors, of which the relative position of particular areas is one. The right hon. Gentleman cannot suggest that we are not taking energetic action to improve the environment in the area. As recently as March last month I announced £2 million of urban development grant expenditure, which will transform Swansea both as an area in which to live and for tourism and industrial development.

Are not the figures that have been given to my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Mr. Wardell) yet another reminder of how the Government's policies are the cause of such grievous unemployment in south Wales? Is it not time that the electors of south Wales were given the same opportunity to repudiate such policies as was given to the electors of New South Wales so effectively last week?

When the opportunity to decide these matters is taken, I have no doubt that the electors will make their views plain. I will be happy to put before them the record of this Government in tackling the grievous problems that we inherited. I will remind them that every Labour Government since the war have left unemployment higher when they departed from office than it was when they came in.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest figure of the number of males unemployed in Newport, Gwent; and what percentage of the male working population in Newport this represents.

On 10 February male unemployment in the Newport travel-to-work area totalled 10,309 or 18·2 per cent.

Those figures are simply appalling, but, in addition, a further 350 male jobs are now to go at Alcan Rogerstone. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to impress on the management of that plant the defence implications of the proposed closure? Surely the recent Falklands experience should make us realise that more than just commercial expediency must be considered with regard to this proposal.

While I understand that the hon. Gentleman is concerned about the loss of the extrusion facilities and its effect on defence, I am informed by the company that the bulk of the extrusion facilities will be transferred to other plants, except in cases where it does not see a commercial future, and that, in any case, the main manufacturing facility which is causing concern to the hon. Gentleman will not be needed for a long time to come because the particular product is tending to be made of carbon fibre, not of aluminium.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the present state of the agriculture industry in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The recently published White Paper on agriculture shows that Welsh farmers shared in the substantial recovery in farm incomes in 1981–82 following two difficult years. This recovery is expected to continue in the current year.

I am sure that the Secretary of State will agree that the deficiency payments scheme has worked well for many years for beef and lamb producers in Wales. Why will the Government not introduce a deficiency payments scheme to help pig producers in Wales, who are in dire trouble?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the problems of the pig industry have been apparent for a considerable time and have been recently discussed between the unions and the Government. I do not think that there will be widespread support for his proposal that deficiency payments should be introduced for the pig industry. It is clear that the Government's general measures for agriculture have been extremely successful in maintaining the position of agriculture, not least in Wales.

When are farmers in Wales likely to see some tangible benefits from the proposal to extend the less-favoured areas directive to that part of Wales now described as marginal land?

I should like to be able to give the right hon. Gentleman an answer, but the Commission is now asking a great many detailed questions about our application, which is its right. We are dealing with the questions, but I cannot say how long it will take to satisfy the Commission as to the eligibility of the land in question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether his Department has yet established liaison with the European bureau for the lesser spoken languages.

The bureau has not yet been set up, but Welsh Office officials are in touch with the Commission's office for Wales.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that there is a strong Welsh lead in the bureau when it is set up, to achieve practicality, not least because there is always a danger with a project of this type, which is potentially worth while, that it will become the worst sort of pointless sociological exploration?

My hon. Friend may be aware that the bureau's initial budget will be £56,000. Spending on the Welsh language in Wales in the coming year will be £2·5 million, almost four times as much as during 1978–79. I understand that apart from all the Celtic lesser spoken languages in Britain, the Republic of Ireland and France, there are no fewer than 12 lesser spoken languages in Italy alone.

I appreciate that the Secretary of State must have his priorities in deciding with whom he liaises, but will the Under-Secretary of State suggest to his right hon. Friend that he begins liaising inside Wales? Is the Minister aware that the Secretary of State has never—he cannot deny this—visited the National Coal Board's premises or a pit during the time that he has been Secretary of State for Wales? Does he think that this is a contribution to industrial relations within south Wales?

I am astonished that the hon. Gentleman believes that his supplementary question arises from the main question, which is about the European bureau for the lesser spoken languages.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement regarding the application of the youth training scheme to Wales.

I understand that the Manpower Services Commission in Wales will be seeking to provide around 25,000 YTS places in 1983–84. It is too early to be precise about the range of places likely to be available but so far the response of employers generally has been encouraging.

Are the Government considering, as predicted in yesterday's edition of The Sunday Times, a form of military national service training for unemployed school leavers? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, overall, the Government are having desperate trouble in the civilian sector in finding sufficient training places? Is it not diabolical that having created the jobs desert for school leavers the Government must now consider having national service to give our unemployed youngsters training?

There is no proposal for national service. The Manpower Service Commission, which is responsible for the scheme, is seeking proposals from employers with a view to making a success of it. I am told by the MSC that it hopes to be able to fill the proposed number of vacancies in this scheme for Wales. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will give Mr. David Schwarz, the chairman of the committee, and his team every support and encouragement in making a success of this most important scheme.

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there are now about 37,000 young people in Wales under the age of 20 who are out of work? Does he accept that this is a reflection of the Government's failure to provide work, from whatever scheme, for these people?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the scheme in the light of the figure that I have announced. It is designed to deal with the problems of those who are out of work and to improve their training and, therefore, their likely success in fining employment in future.

Does my right hon. Friend recall the efforts that I have made at all times to support him from these Benches in the great job that he has been doing as Secretary of State for Wales? Will he give me his assurance that he will not use the authority of his office to cover the carefully orchestrated manoeuvre that is designed to remove me from these Benches—

Order. The hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) must resume his seat. He knows very well that this question is about youth training in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many workers were employed in manufacturing industry in Wales in May 1979 and at the latest available date.

Quarterly estimates published in the Employment Gazetteindicate that 312,000 persons were employed in manufacturing in June 1979 and 219,000 in September 1982, the latest available estimate.

Does the Secretary of State realise that there is widespread despair in south Wales over the number of manufacturing firms that have gone out of existence in the area while the Government have been in office? It is known that Mr. Ian MacGregor presided over massive cuts in the steel industry when he was chairman of BSC. Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the rumour that Mr. MacGregor is to be transferred to the coal industry is creating a good deal of anxiety? Will the right hon. Gentleman use his good offices in the Cabinet to prevent that appointment taking place?

I do not intend to speculate on public appointments from the Dispatch Box. In view of the hon. Gentleman's remarks about the need for manufacturing employment, I am sure that he will welcome the fact that today yet another United States high technology company, Align-Rite has announced that it will be establishing itself in the new industrial part in Mid-Glamorgan and will employ about 150 persons to produce photo masks for use in the production of microelectronic systems.

If the right hon. Gentleman is sincere about the evils of mass unemployment in Wales, why are the Government moving towards the closure of jobcentres in Bethesda, Dolgellau, Glyn Neath and Llandovery for the trifling saving of only £11,000? Why are the Government prepared to dispense with these excellent ways of trying to help those who are unemployed?

The hon. Gentleman should not seek to exaggerate the practical arrangements and proposals of the MSC in examining its facilities. The proposals concern part-time offices and only three employees will be affected by the proposals. This is hardly relevant to the figures that we have been discussing.

The figures that the Secretary of State has announced show that the number of new jobs that he keeps talking about is but a drop in the ocean compared with the vast number of jobs that have been destroyed since the Government took office. Surely the decline in manufacturing industry in Wales shows clearly that the rate has been greater under this Government than under any Government since the war. Given this decline and the reduction in the number of apprenticeships for young people, what hope does the right hon. Gentleman see for young people in Wales in future?

These factors indicate the dramatic nature of the change in employment that is happening worldwide and the move from manufacturing to the service sector. In high technology industry, which we are so anxious to attract to Wales, we see a good example of the positive aspects as well as the problems. Anyone who studies the issue will realise that there are more jobs to be created in the software sector than in the hardware sector of the computer industry. The recent arrival of new service sector jobs in Wales shows the opportunities that are there. We should not be aiming only for manufacturing investment of the old sort.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new dwellings were completed in Wales in (a) the public sector and (b) the private sector in the latest full year for which figures are available; and how this compares with the completions achieved in the best year, in each sector, respectively, since 1945.

In 1982, 2,672 new dwellings were completed in the public sector and 4,781 in the private sector. The "best years" were 1953 in the public sector and 1973 in the private sector when 13,312 and 10,957 dwellings respectively were completed.

Does the Minister accept that the 1982 figures are disastrous? Since the war there have been seven years in which over 10,000 houses have been built in the public sector and two years in which over 10,000 were built in the private sector. There was one year in which over 20,000 houses in total were built. How can the hon. Gentleman justify his Government's housing policy for Wales when we compare it with the successes of the past?

The hon. Gentleman must realise that there has been a general decline in house building over the past decade. The public sector has been declining since 1975 and the private sector since 1973. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that it is not because of lack of money that houses are not being built. Local authorities were underspent to the tune of £35 million in 1981–82. The first nine months of 1982–83 show that the authorities spent only 51 per cent. of the sum that they could have spent in the year. In 1983–84 they will be given 23 per cent. more than they are likely to spend this year.

Will the Minister compare those figures with the demand and need in Wales as measured by the figures that he gave to the conference of local government housing officials at Llandrindod Wells, which were in the range of 20,000 dwellings per annum? Does not the shortfall from such need lead only to greater homelessness and anxiety among our people in Wales?

The hon. Gentleman is at least as aware as I am that the local authorities have a serious and grave responsibility in this matter. A number of Welsh local authorities have chosen not to use their capital receipts on new capital expenditure and have large amounts of money in hand. I can perhaps assist the House by giving a little news on the bright side, which is that there has been a substantial increase in housing starts over the 1981 figure in both the public and private sector, amounting to 33·7 per cent. overall, taking the public and private sector together. [Interruption.] I am surprised that Opposition Members are not glad to hear this.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is now in a position to announce new policy guidelines for the Welsh Development Agency.

I met the board of the Welsh Development Agency on 1 March to discuss future policies. In the light of this the agency board will be giving further consideration at this month's meeting both to priorities in the coming year and to general strategy.

That is a disappointing reply. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that new companies which have sought assistance from the WDA, only to be refused, have then gone to other agencies and have established businesses in other parts of the United Kingdom? Is he further aware that there is clearly a bottleneck in the processing of applications to the WDA? When will these problems be overcome?

I have received no evidence of a logjam, but it is not surprising that different agencies might take different decisions. The applications often take a different form by the time they are submitted again. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that the board is not waiting until the completion of its deliberations before introducing new measures or changing its system. When it has considered these matters fully, I intend to seek further ways of reporting its decisions to hon. Members.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing- the Church Commissioners, if the Church Commissioners are satisfied with the arrangements for finding alternative uses for churches no longer in use, with particular reference to discouraging the demolition of those of architectural interest.

Each diocese has a committee whose difficult duty it is to make every endeavour to find suitable alternative uses for redundant churches in its area. My hon. Friend will be encouraged to note that, over a 14-year period to the end of 1982, 52 per cent. have been put to new uses, 21 per cent. have been preserved and only 27 per cent. have been demolished. The Church Commissioners believe that this is a creditable record.

I am grateful for that information. Will my hon. Friend comment upon the fact that many churches face demolition only because they fall into a state of disrepair after having become redundant? Would it not be a good idea if the Church Commissioners were to consider setting up a special fund that might attract outside contributions and upon which each diocese could draw, if necessary, the better to preserve our attractive architectural ecclesiastical heritage?

The time involved varies enormously according to whether it is possible to find a use for the building. At one extreme, for example, for the only grade A listed building which it was contemplated would be demolished, seven years were taken to try to find an alternative use. That illustrates the enormous care taken.

Is my hon. Friend aware that there is a much more serious side to the matter? Is he aware that the House knows that recently a redundant church in the south of England was sold to members of another religion? If that practice were to continue, it would not be received with favour by the House.

It is not the only church that has been sold to members of another religion. The particular point is that this church, which is in Southampton, has been sold to a non-Christian faith for worship. The Church Commissioners gave the matter the most anxious consideration. There was universal local support for the sale to the Sikh community, but the Church Commissioners have made it clear that they will judge every case on its merits.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how much the Church Commissioners had paid from their general fund to the Central Board of Finance for the improvement or extension of Church of England schools to the latest convenient date.

The commissioners were empowered in 1958 to make payments to the central board of finance totalling not more than £1 million over 25 years for this purpose. The allocation was completed in 1978.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware of the Labour party's extreme pressure against Church schools, directly and through the Socialist Education Association, as instanced by the pressure against establishing the new Church of England Twyford high school in Ealing by the whole of the Labour party national executive and many Left-wing clerics? Is my hon. Friend aware that the year before Twyford school became a Church of England school there were 54 first choices for the 240 places, but that this year, two years after it became a Church school, in the face of strenuous opposition from the Labour party, there are 253 applications for 180 places? Is that not clear evidence of strong parental support for Church schools?

There is good evidence that in many, perhaps all, parts of the country there is strong support by parents for Church schools of all denominations. The penetrating figures given by my hon. Friend seem to justify the expenditure that I announced in my main answer.

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, how many of the staff of the House are expected to be available to work at night.

A total of 486 staff are required to work beyond 6 pm on at least one night a week.

Does the Commission accept that some members of staff are expected to work inordinately long hours, sometimes running right through the night, and that they have to carry unreasonable burdens? Will the Commission consider taking up with the appropriate authorities whether, as a House, we could work more sensible hours to relieve the burden on the staff as well as on hon. Members?

The latter part of the question has my wholehearted support. All the time that I have been in Parliament I have been trying to achieve an arrangement whereby staff and Members work reasonable hours. I shall consider what the hon. Gentleman said about excessive hours, although I understand that the hours are shared as equally as possible and in some cases are on an alternative basis.

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what subjects the Commission expects to discuss at its next meeting with trades union representatives of House employees.

Negotiations and consultations are usually carried on between representatives of management and trade unions without the direct involvement of the Commission.

Is the Commission aware of the widespread resentment felt by House of Commons staff about the decision to ban them from buying certain souvenir items such as House of Commons ties, ashtrays, and beer tankards, which are now on sale in the kiosk downstairs to hon. Members only? Were the trade unions or staff consulted before such a discriminatory and petty-minded policy was implemented?

My hon. Friend will appreciate that this is a matter for the Catering Sub-Committee of the House of Commons (Services) Committee. I assure him that I take note of his question and will consider the matter.

Is my right hon. Friend aware of early-day motion No. 312, which asks the Commission to look closely at medical facilities for the staff in the House? Will my right hon. Friend ensure that the subject appears on one of the agendas so that it can receive serious consideration? It is urgently needed.

The Commission has taken action and gained some medical staff here. There was none for years. I shall submit the matter to my colleagues on the Commission to see whether it should be reconsidered.

To return to the question asked by the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan), is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a fairly unanimous feeling on the House of Commons (Services) Committee that the House of Commons portcullis insignia should not be freely and indiscriminately available to anyone other than hon. Members?

asked the right hon. Member for Middlesbrough, as representing the House of Commons Commission, how often the House of Commons Commission meets; and what are the main items for discussion.

In the current financial year the Commission has met six times. The matters considered have derived from the Commission's responsibilities for staff and House expenditure, as set out in the House of Commons (Administration) Act 1978.

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. How can representations be accepted by the Commission from hon. Members and the staff?

Representations from the staff are made through the Whitley council and the trade unions. Every Member of the House can approach the Commission direct on any matter he wishes to raise with it.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what requests he has received for the return of the Elgin marbles; and if he will make a statement.

The Government have received no formal request for the return of the Elgin marbles.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that but for the foresight, perseverance and generosity of the seventh Earl of Elgin, who in modern terms spent more than £1½ million, the marbles would no longer exist? Will he therefore tell the Greek Minister of Culture that, with regard to her demand for the return of the Elgin marbles, her own advice of "Never on a Sunday" applies to all other days of the week as well?

I note my hon. Friend's view. I agree with the first part of his question. On the point of principle, it must be right to have some international collections of great international significance, and the British museum is paramount among them.

Is the Minister aware that the seventh Earl of Elgin was an unscrupulous vandal—

Shame.

—who cut sculptures off the Parthenon that were an integral part of that building? Is the Minister further aware that he was forced to discuss this serious issue at the UNESCO conference in Mexico? Will the right hon. Gentleman take the matter seriously? When he receives a formal request from the Greek Government, will he discuss it seriously instead of refusing to enter into discussions about the matter?

As the hon. Gentleman said, this matter was raised at the UNESCO meeting last year. It is an extremely serious issue. I do not wish to quibble with the hon. Gentleman about history, but some hon. Members will at least feel that had it not been for Lord Elgin there would now be no Elgin marbles. It would be a disaster for the world if collections of one culture were available only in that country. We must have some great international collections. The British museum is one. The Elgin marbles were legally obtained, and it remains the Government's view that they should remain in the British museum.

I reinforce the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price). Will my right hon. Friend repudiate what was said by the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) about Lord Elgin's actions? Is it not absolutely and incontrovertibly true that had he not brought the marbles here they would have been destroyed—probably by the Turks?

Quite right.

There seems little doubt that had Lord Elgin not brought the marbles here they would not now exist. Parts of the Parthenon are in nine other museums in six countries. The British museum is not alone in this. It is in the interests of everyone, from whichever country he comes, that these great international collections should continue.

Is the Minister aware that there is a widespread view among Labour Members and in the country that, in spite of the exemplary care that has been taken of the Elgin marbles by the seventh Earl and the British museum, 1803 is not 1983? May not the time have come to reconstitute the Parthenon frieze on an appropriate site as near as possible to the great national monument that it once adorned?

I understand that if the Elgin marbles were to go back to Greece they would go from one museum to another. There is no question of reconstituting them on site. As the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) pointed out on a recent television programme, that would be another question. It is proposed that the marbles should move from one museum to another. What would be the point of that?

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now establish a national scheme for the borrowing of works of art from galleries.

The national galleries already have extensive arrangements for supplying other public institutions with individual loans and exhibitions. So do many local and independent galleries, the area museum councils and the Arts Council. I am always ready to encourage suitable further developments, including the possibility of loans to a wider circle of borrowers, but I doubt whether a centrally administered national scheme is necessary for this purpose.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that comprehensive answer. Does he agree that the example of Manchester, in loaning unhung pictures, gives a greater opportunity both of viewing those pictures and for greater finance to be gleaned?

I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend has said. The Manchester scheme has been imaginative and successful. I shall do what I can to encourage its propagation, and I shall discuss the matter with the Museums and Galleries Commission.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether the members of the Rayner scrutiny team into national arts bodies will be called upon to exercise their artistic judgment.

Questions of artistic judgment will undoubtedly arise. The team proposes to draw on the advice of people qualified to help it, as well as, of course, to discuss such questions with the companies themselves.

Does the Minister agree that the precedent of asking Mr. Burrett to look at the theatre museum was not a happy one? What are Mr. Priestley's artistic qualifications? If he will not use his own artistic judgment, on whose advice will the right hon. Gentleman draw in coming to judgments involving decisions about artistic merit?

I deplore what the hon. Gentleman has said about a previous scrutiny. It is unfair personally to attack it. In this case, a team will be able to call on special assistance in financial and other areas that it judges necessary. The team has yet to appoint any advisers, but it will be able to do so and its selection will be discussed with me and the chairmen of the companies concerned. In that way, I believe that the points raised by the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied.

Does my right hon. Friend recall that Lord Shinwell, as Minister of Defence, threatened to make military judgments when Field Marshal Montgomery was Chief of Defence Staff and made political judgments? May not national arts bodies make dangerous economic judgments if Rayner forces upon them unacceptable artistic judgments?

There is no question of unacceptable artistic judgments being forced on anyone. In areas where large sums of public money are spent on the arts I should have thought that the House would be anxious to ensure that value for money was obtained. It is only right that there should be a Rayner scrutiny into these two areas so that we can establish the proof.

Will the study group be empowered to hear evidence from the regions as well as from London so that it can look in depth at the imbalance between the funding of opera in London and opera elsewhere in the country? That matter has just been brought to the attention of the House and the country by Dr. Hoggart's study for the Arts Council.

It will be able to take evidence from anywhere it thinks fit. Indeed, it has specifically written to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West, (Mr. Price), asking for his views as Chairman of the Select Committee. It is looking forward to receiving them. Of course the group will take evidence. The Hoggart report is, of course, a discussion document at this stage and no decisions have been taken upon it.

Without discussing the merits of individuals, does my right hon. Friend accept that the last scrutiny left much to be desired? That was the view of the Select Committee and almost everyone who knew anything about the subject and read the report. Can my right hon. Friend assure us that those lessons have been taken on board?

I can assure my hon. Friend that an immense amount of trouble has been taken over this scrutiny. The people involved will do it extremely well. They have great financial experience and will have the opportunity of calling on expert advice in other areas. I hope and believe that both my hon. Friend and the House will think the report worth while.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what progress has been made towards establishing the theatre museum.

Subject to the satisfactory completion of lease negotiations, about which I foresee no problems, between the Greater London council and the Property Services Agency, building work on the theatre museum project in Covent Garden is planned to start in May.

When is the theatre museum likely to be opened?

The building work is likely to take about two years. That will be followed by the fitting-out of the museum and I cannot, at this stage, say how long that will take. It will be for the new trustees of the V and A to decide when the theatre museum will be opened, but the main building work will take approximately two years.

Will my right hon. friend ensure that when this great moment comes there will be adequate access for the disabled, which, as he knows, does not happen in certain other great national galleries?

I have particularly taken note of my hon. Friend's views about that matter and I shall take the opportunity of drawing the point to the attention to the new trustees of the V and A.

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what has been the increase in the total grant allocation to the Victoria and Albert museum in 1983–84 over 1982–83.

The estimates submitted to Parliament provide for a total allocation to the Victoria and Albert museum in 1983–84 of £10,456,000, an increase of 12·5 per cent. over the corresponding figure for 1982–83.

I welcome that substantial increase in support for the V and A. What new developments can we expect at the V and A this coming year?

My hon. Friend will be aware that next week will see the opening of the Henry Cole building, which will be the greatest extension of the V and A in 70 years and a major step in the history of the museum. I assure my hon. Friend that the taxpayer is getting good value for money.

While I welcome the admirable development of the Henry Cole building, may I ask the Minister to encourage the V and A to take up once again the touring role, which it used to follow rather more extensively than it does now?

Again, that will be a matter for the trustees of the museum once they come into being. We shall have an opportunity to discuss that elsewhere.

Would it be possible for my right hon. Friend to see that the management runs the Victoria and Albert museum, instead of the staff?

Again, that is an issue that is not irrelevant to the discussions in Committee on the National Heritage [Lords] Bill. The Government's intention is that the trustees should be responsible for the museum. Although they will delegate some things to the staff, it is the trustees who will carry responsibility for the policy of the new museum.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Recently it was suggested that Welsh Question Time be curtailed. However, on the Order Paper today there are six questions from Welsh Members not yet called, and the time for questions has elapsed. In addition, one of the principal questions deals with the miners' strike in Wales, which has not been mentioned during Welsh questions. This time should have been afforded. I hope that the hon. Member who suggested that Welsh Question Time should be reduced will bear in mind that there are Welsh Members still waiting to be called today.

I allowed the hon. Gentleman to get that off his chest.