asked the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to his reply to the right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon, (Mr. Morris) Official Report, 27 June, c. 334, whether he has now completed his consideration of the Serpell report and its effects upon the railways in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The Serpell report is still under consideration by the Government. I intend, in due course, to issue a consultation document about arrangements for reaching decisions on local transport issues—including railways—in Wales.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the concern in Wales over this important matter and of the representations that have been made to hon. Members by local authorities, trade unions, employers and women's institutes, to name but a few? When will he carry out his responsibilities to the people of Wales?

It is precisely because I recognise the concern expressed by a wide range of public bodies that I propose to issue a consultation document and to seek their views on this important matter.

My right hon. Friend has rightly said that the local authorities have an important role to play in the strategy for public transport. Therefore, would it not be appropriate for my right hon. Friend to identify those county councils that have a particular responsibility for guiding railway strategy?

I have already suggested that the county councils have a potentially important role to play. As they have existing responsibilities for other transport services, it might be sensible to consider bringing together all transport services, including railways, under one head. These are important issues and I propose to consult the county councils as well as other interested bodies.

Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that, in referring to local transport decisions, the Government are not proposing to abolish the Transport Users Consultative Committee, which has successfully resisted two attempts to close the Cambrian coast line?

I have no proposals, and none has been put to me from any source, to abolish the Transport Users Consultative Committee.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many of the issues arising from the Serpell report affect not only the county councils? In the last Welsh Question Time the right hon. Gentleman dismissed extreme solutions. Will he assure us that one of the extreme solutions that was dismissed was the closure of the valleys railway lines?

These are not just local issues. That is why I have resisted pressures from some quarters to transfer them to the responsibility of the Welsh Office. We have to treat different aspects of the problem differently. It would be extraordinary if, at the end of full consultation and consideration of these issues, there were any proposal to abolish the valleys railway lines, which make an extremely important contribution to the economy and public services of the area.

As responsibility for the railways in Wales lies not with the Secretary of State for Wales but with the Secretary of State for Transport, what will the right hon. Gentleman consult about? Will he talk about railways or something else?

It may come as a surprise to the right hon. Gentleman, with his experience in Government, to know that we do not find it too difficult to work together as a Government. I keep in the closest contact with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport on all these issues. When I put forward proposals and suggestions that affect Wales, I do so with the full knowledge of the Secretary of State for Transport. We, as a Government, will in due course put forward firm proposals as a Government.

The Government cannot be expected to give hasty decisions on matters of such great importance, but would it not be helpful to consider making an early statement dismissing at least two of the suggestions — first, that all railways west of Cardiff should cease to exist and, secondly, that there should be poorer maintenance and less expense on upkeep?

I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has said on numerous occasions, although I point out that no proposals were put forward by the Serpell committee. It merely pointed out the financial consequences of certain courses of action.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many house renovation grants, including repair grants, were approved by local authorities in Wales in the last financial year; and whether he is satisfied with the rate of progress being achieved in this area.

Provisional figures show that more than 28,700 house renovation grants, including 17,400 repair grants, were approved in 1982–83. This is about three times the total number of grants and about six times the number of repair grants approved in the previous financial year. This much-increased rate of grant activity should continue in the current year, and I hope that all local authorities will make every effort to meet the demand.

I welcome the increased activity in improving housing conditions in Wales, but can my hon. Friend tell me whether the work has placed a heavy burden on local government finances?

I am glad that my hon. Friend welcomes the increased activity, which should be coupled with the 80 per cent. increase in private sector starts in the first quarter of this year, compared with the corresponding period last year. A great deal is going on.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of persons aged 18 to 21 years are in full-time employment in Wales.

I regret that this imformation is not available; the employment statistics do not give an age analysis for this total group.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there is a serious problem of youth unemployment in Wales, as there is in the rest of the United Kingdom? There is general admiration for the efforts that he is making to bring in new jobs, which are desperately needed, but the insensitive comment by the Chancellor of the Exchequer about jobs being easily available does not help the situation in Wales one bit. Jobs may be available in Leicester, but they are certainly not available in many parts of Wales.

My hon. Friend is right to point out the seriousness of the situation for many individuals. The Government recognise the seriousness of the situtation and are undertaking massive schemes to try to help the young unemployed and devoting substantial resources to that task. As my hon. Friend knows, £1 billion will be spent on the youth training scheme this year.

In view of the seriousness of the situation, and the fact that one in two school leavers this year will not be able to get a job, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that no cuts will be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the money spent on the YTS?

We have already announced our plans for the youth training scheme in the current financial year, and those plans are going ahead.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the future of cardiothoracic services in the Principality.

The need for new facilities is being reassessed and I shall make an announcement as soon as possible after the recess.

The hon. Gentleman knows that Wales has one of the highest incidences of heart disease in the civilised world and one of the lowest levels of resources to meet the problem. He also knows about the fears that much-needed investment will be held back, because of the Government's public expenditure cuts, to make way for tax cuts for those on high incomes. Therefore, will the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that the much-needed facility in Wales will not be held back by the current public expenditure cuts?

I am aware of the general position of cardiothoracic services in Wales. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the position is exactly as I stated it. During our appraisal, further and more up-to-date material became available on the throughput of the present facilities and the general level of provision required. Following an interim report by the Welsh Office appraisal team, I asked that the matter be discussed further with representatives of the Welsh medical committee. The Chancellor's statement has no bearing on the problem.

In view of the disastrous consequences of the closure of the heart surgery facilities at Sully hospital some years ago, will my hon. Friend bear in mind, when assessing the current problem, the almost unrivalled facilities available at Sully hospital for cardiothoracic treatment?

We are looking at all possible options. Obviously, an option appraisal has to be carried out, and we shall pay considerable attention to the recommendations of the Welsh medical committee.

In view of the appallingly high incidence of heart disease in Wales, is not it time that the Welsh Office and the Health Education Council got together to launch a major campaign of public education about preventive aspects of heart disease? Will the hon. Gentleman tackle the problem urgently?

The hon. Gentleman is right. One recommendation of the working party report was that there should be a preventive campaign. The matter is under active consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales why work on the heating system at Rhydlafar hospital will not commence before the winter.

The heating system must be fully planned and designed before tenders are invited. To avoid winter work, a start immediately after the winter months is advisable.

I am grateful to my lion. Friend for that reply, but why cannot a start be made this summer?

My hon. Friend will realise that much work has to be done. It is necessary to plan the proposed new layout of the hospital, to work out the most economic heating system in terms of fuel and distribution and to plan and design the scheme in detail before going out to competitive tender. I regret that all that cannot be done before the winter begins. However, I am glad to assure my hon. Friend that all the work that can be done is proceeding, and the first matter to be attended to will be the upgrading of certain wards.

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that adequate financing will be available to complete the upgrading programme at Rhydlafar hospital, despite the Chancellor of the Exchequer's decision to reduce expenditure on the National Health Service?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has given a firm decision on the hospital, and it is our intention to carry out the necessary work there. We are considering how the cash limit adjustments described in the statement by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 7 July will be implemented in Wales. It would be fruitless to speculate on possible detailed effects.

I accept that we cannot be informed of the detailed effects of the Chancellor's statement, but will the Under-Secretary tell us how much cash will be taken away from the NHS in Wales?

The press reports that I have read of £8 million cuts in the NHS in Wales are considerable exaggerations of the likely reductions. We are not yet able to make a statement on the subject.

Does that mean that the Welsh Office did not know about the cuts before they were announced? Why does the hon. Gentleman not know the figure?

Because we are working out the implications of the Chancellor's statement and we want any reductions that may have to take place to have the least possible effect on the NHS in Wales [Horn. MEMBERS: "How much?"] Health moneys in Wales are part of the block grant, which is divided by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to cover various services.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is to be the percentage difference between 1983–84 and 1984–85 in the centrally funded capital finance allocation for the hospital building programme for the Mid-Glamorgan and Gwent area health authorities.

As the capital allocations for the hospital building programme for the 1984–85 financial year have yet to be determined, no comparison can be made.

Is the Minister aware that five out of the eight remaining programmes in the 1966 hospital building programme for Wales lie within the east Glamorgan and Gwent area? Will sufficient weighting be given to the Mid-Glamorgan and Gwent area health authorities to allow them to complete the hospital building prograrmne identified in the 1966 plan for Wales? When will finance be available for the construction of a new district general hospital to serve the area of east Glamorgan and Gwent?

I ask the hon. Gentleman to look again at and not necessarily accept the information that he has already received about the schemes that remain to be completed under the 1966 plan.

Does that reply mean that provided the need is established, the rearrangement of capital for the Health Service in Wales will in no circumstances result in the intended hospital at Panteg in West Monmouthshire not coming into existence?

Treasury approval was given last week for the necessary spending on phase 6 of the Royal Gwent hospital.

As the Minister is looking at the preparatory work for appraising the need for a hospital in east Wales and considering the implications of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's cuts in the Health Service without knowing the figure on which he will start—at least, he is not prepared to divulge it—will he go a little further in his star gazing and give the House the basis of the formula on which he will assess the new grants to district health authorities in relation to the amounts that will be available to them for capital and revenue expenditure? How will that formula be arrived at? Will he abolish the old system—[Interruption.]

Order. The hon. Gentleman should ask only one question.

It may help if I explain the present position. Under the present arrangements the money available for capital development is top sliced by the Department to pay for major schemes and the residue is allocated to health authorities for their more minor schemes. From next April it is proposed that new major schemes will not be top sliced, but schemes already in the all-Wales programme's regional services will. As the all-Wales commitments run out, the proportion of funding going to the health authorities will increase. The Department's approval will still be required for schemes costing more than £2 million and Treasury approval will be needed for those costing more than £3 million. I hope that the hon. Gentleman finds that helpful.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will provide additional resources to local authorities in Wales to ensure that their housing stock is kept in a good state of repair.

During the past two years capital expenditure by local authorities on repair and improvement of their dwellings totalled about £70 million. However, during the same period Welsh authorities under-spent that total housing resources available to them by £35 million in 1981–82 and by about £45 million in 1982–83. There is therefore no lack of capital resources for local authority housing maintenance.

Does the Minister appreciate that the financial pressures that the Government are putting on local authorities are forcing them to cut back on essential repair and maintenance work? Some houses are now in such a bad state of repair that they are not worth selling to the sitting tenants or anybody else. Why does he not do something to help our local authorities and not perpetually harass them?

The hon. Gentleman is wrong, as he so frequently is. Welsh local authorities have consistently spent more on their own housing stock than on private sector renovation grants—£128 million as against £100 million since 1978–79. That trend was maintained even last year when the higher rate of grants increased expenditure to about £41 million, while about £46 million was spent on the local authorities' own stock. I wish that the hon. Gentleman would get his facts right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the current unemployment rate for the Shotton travel-to-work area.

The rate was 17·2 per cent. on 9 June 1983.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that that rate disguises actual unemployment in the borough of Delyn, which reflects problems distinctive to Delyn? Does he further agree that producing an unemployment rate on a travel-to-work basis, invariably crossing borough boundaries, is in this and many other instances bureaucratic nonsense, which can hinder an effective approach to reducing unemployment at local level?

I am afraid that I shall have to give my hon. Friend exactly the same answer as I have given to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) on a number of occasions. The travel-to-work area is the best designation that we yet have been able to arrive at, although designation is not my responsibility. People often travel considerably further than the immediate towns and places in which they live. I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that many of the important projects that have recently come and are coming to Deeside will benefit his constituents as well as those who live closer to those projects.

Does the right hon. Gentleman deny that the power station at Connah's Quay is to close shortly? Are not 230 jobs at risk? Where will the new jobs come from?

I have no precise information along those lines. As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is the responsibility of the board. All I can say about new jobs is that we are undertaking a massive amount of development work in the area and being extremely successful in attracting some important new projects to Deeside.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has received from the South Glamorgan health authority regarding the Prince of Wales hospital, Rhydlafar.

The health authority has submitted outline proposals for repairs and improvements to staff accommodation, operating facilities, heating and roofs. The detailed plans are being worked up by a project team from the authority, Welsh Office and the Welsh health technical services organisation.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate how far what he has just said and what the chairman of the South Glamorgan health authority has said about the hospital go to reassure the many people who have been deeply alarmed and concerned about the future of Rhydlafar?

I know the hospital personally, having visited it on a number of occasions both as a Minister and previously. I know how much the hospital and its services are valued generally in south Wales and how much the positive decision of my right hon. Friend was also appreciated by the community at large.

Will the hon. Gentleman go a little further and give a categoric assurance that the Prince of Wales hospital, which is renowned internationally as an orthopaedic hospital, will not be put in jeopardy as a result of the manoeuvres of the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

I have already given some reassurance about that. The plans are going ahead as required to implement the refurbishment of the hospital. It is still very much in the planning stage. There is to be another meeting of the project team on 27 July, when the plans will be developed yet again.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest figures available for the number of local government employees in Wales; what actual and percentage reduction this constitutes from May 1979; and what further target he has for reductions during the course of the new Parliament.

In March 1983, the latest month for which figures are available, it is provisionally estimated that 128,000 persons, in full-time equivalent terms, were employed by local authorities in Wales. This figure is 4,400 or 3·4 per cent. lower than that for the corresponding month of 1979. Nevertheless, it is clear that the search for manpower economies must continue if local authority current expenditure and rates are to be held to levels the country can afford.

Are there not signs that the excellent reduction from 1979 to 1983 disguised a rise in employment in local authorities recently? Is it not timely for a special conference to be called with the association of local authorities in Wales to review this problem at the early stages?

There was an upturn in local authority employment in the last two quarters' figures, and I have drawn that fact to the attention of the local authorities and expressed my concern about it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of people in full employment in Wales at the latest available date and in May 1979.

Quarterly estimates indicate there were 865,000 employees in employment in June 1979 and 725,000 in December 1982.

Although the Secretary of State talks about bringing jobs to Wales, is not this a massive reduction in the number of jobs available? To deal with the problem facing Wales at present, is it not necessary to make a major change in the Government's economic, industrial and financial policies?

There has been a substantial reduction in the number employed. The steel industry has suffered especially during this period. The figures that I have given show that there are 24,000 more employees in employment than were given in estimates presented to the House a year ago. Those were estimates. I am now presenting figures on the basis of the 1981 census. The headline in a recent Welsh newspaper to the effect that there had been a 24,000 increase in unemployment is the reverse of the truth.

Does not the Secretary of State accept that in his blind, dogmatic search for cuts in employment in the public sector he is creating a situation in which local authorities cannot spend the money available to them for repairs? Will he take off his blinkers and give local authorities the chance of employing people so that they can use the capital moneys which the right hon. Gentleman says they are not spending?

The increase in numbers in the last two quarters came largely from the county councils and not the districts and cannot have arisen as a result of any problems concerned with repair grants.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent efforts have been made by his Department to attract high technology industry to south Wales.

The attraction of high technology industries to Wales is one of my foremost priorities. I have streamlined the arrangements for attracting investment from overseas to Wales and the new organisation—WlNvest—is fully in business.

Can my right hon. Friend say whether there are any signs of increased overseas investment in the region?

Yes. WlNvest handled no fewer than 47 visits by overseas companies between 1 April and 30 June, and I am pleased to tell the House today that another United States high technology company is establishing its headquarters in Wales. The Comdial corporation, which designs and manufactures telephone terminal equipment, is planning to build a 100,000 sq ft factory at St Mellons, between Cardiff and Newport. The 300 jobs to be created will benefit both communities, and my hon. Friend's constituents are among those who will benefit. The plant will be the most modern of its kind in Europe.

The right hon. Gentleman will recall expressing concern to me some months ago about the lack of high technology investment in south-west Wales. Given the Government's continued failure to attract such investment, from which future employment will come, is not the right hon. Gentleman sentencing that part of south Wales to very low employment levels in future.?

I do not believe that that is true. We are already seeing a marked extension of the high technology corridor along the M4, a further phase of which I have just announced. It is clear from the number of active inquiries and applications for SFA and other assistance before us at present that the level of activity is growing and spreading. As it spreads, I am sure that south-west Wales will benefit.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what responses he has received, particularly from the local authorities, in respect of the initiative he launched on 10 February for the redevelopment of south Cardiff.

The response from all concerned has been most constructive, especially from the local authorities. The aim now is to encourage specific proposals for development. I shall give sympathetic consideration to proposals for urban development grant where this is necessary to enable a project to go forward.

I am very grateful for that answer, especially in view of the significance of the date on which the Secretary of State announced his initiative. Is my hon. Friend aware that south Glamorgan county council appears to be pursuing a policy of total antagonism to the city council and that it is producing a very negative image in the effort to try to secure inward investment? Will my hon. Friend continue to use his moderating influence?

I am sorry to have to tell my hon. Friend that I deplore that comment. My right hon. Friend and I have had constant communication with both the south Glamorgan county council and the Cardiff city council. It is quite obvious that the ultimate in cooperation is required between local authorities, private developers and the various public agencies that can play a part. I have found nothing but good will in my consultations. Obviously the city council, as planning authority, has to produce a structure in which all can work together. We are doing all that we can to promote the maximum co-operation, because this is one of the most important matters in my sphere of responsibility.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the failure of the freight services of Welsh-Irish Ferries Ltd.

I was naturally sorry to learn of the failure of a venture in which the Welsh Development Agency had made an investment and which my own Department had offered to support with grant-aid.

In view of the favourable feasibility study that preceded the launching of this undertaking and the study given to it by local authorities and others, is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a good deal of concern about this early failure, after only three months of operation? Has my right hon. Friend any idea of the reasons for the failure?

I must tell my hon. Friend, who pressed the case for this investment very hard, that I am sad that it has not succeeded. My hon. Friend is right. A detailed study was undertaken by Coopers and Lybrand, and the WDA looked into the case. But it was always clear that there were some risks, especially with the long sea haul involved. Anyone who has studied the matter will know that a long sea haul adds to the risk. If the WDA is to fulfil its role of supporting new projects, I am afraid that not all of them will succeed. The grant offered by my Department has not been paid, as the instalments come only 12 months after the creation of the first job.

How much of the £112,000 which was granted by the WDA will be salvaged? Is my right hon. Friend aware that south Wales is littered with redundant ferry port facilities that have been provided out of public funds both at Swansea and Pembroke? Why was this investment allowed to go ahead in the first place and to collapse after a few months?

The usual criticism made of the WDA is that it is not sufficiently enterprising in backing such projects. I was strongly pressed by both Labour and Conservative Members that this project should be backed by my Department and the agency. The agency had a full feasibility study undertaken by an extremely well-known firm and it was on that basis that the investment was made. I am sure that the agency will want to investigate the circumstances of the collapse fairly fully and will be able to give the hon. Gentleman further information if he asks for it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many jobs exist in the aerospace industry in the Principality.

No precise up-to-date figure is available, but it is estimated that current employment is of the order of 6,000.

What is the Secretary of State doing to help the plane makers of north-east Wales? Does he know of the deep concern at the likeihood of British Airways buying an American aircraft rather than the Airbus to replace the aging Trident? Why are the Government so slow to find money for the new Airbus, the A320?

I welcome the recent roll-out of the new 800 series of the HS125 and wish that well. However, I have little to add to the answer that the hon. Gentleman has already received from the Department of Trade and Industry. It cannot be for the Government to force British Airways to buy an aeroplane that might not be suitable for it in order to guarantee business for British Aerospace. The risks of doing that are obvious. We might damage the prospects of British Airways and that cannot be sensible.

Without wishing to give my right hon. Friend help that he does not need, may I ask whether it is not a fact that, contrary to what the hon. Gentleman said, British Aerospace has not yet made a specific and detailed request for launching aid for the project that the hon. Gentleman mentioned? Therefore, is it not difficult for the Government to give assistance when they have not been formally asked to do so?

My hon. Friend is right. The Government would wish to be satisfied about the potential viability of the project before commiting themselves to any decision and clearly the orders that are received for the project will be an important consideration.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the effects of the decision of the levels of public expenditure announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 7 July on the Welsh economy.

I am considering the way in which the cash limit adjustments described in my right hon. Friend's statement should be implemented in Wales, and I shall of course have regard to the need to minimise the effects on the economy.

Did not the Secretary of State know before the election that there would be cuts? Why then did he try to deceive the electorate of Wales by not explaining in detail what he anticipated would be the Chancellor's action as soon as the Government were formed? Will he disclose to the House the detail and number of the jobs that will be lost as the result of that massive cut in public expenditure in Wales?

I did not have up-to-date information about the figures that led my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to announce his decision, many of which emerged after the election. My right hon. Friend is taking action to see that public spending does not rise significantly above the levels previously announced—levels that we pledged to maintain at the election. It cannot be in any way wrong—indeed, quite the reverse—for a Government to seek to stop overspending on their announced programmes. I can think of nothing more damaging for job prospects in Wales than spending policies that would lead to an increase in interest rates and in costs to industry.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply by the Secretary of State to my question, I intend to raise—

Order. It is too late for that.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether the new capital financing programme for Welsh hospitals will prejudice the completion of the Royal Gwent hospital at Newport and the new commencement of the building of the West Monmouthshire hospital at Panteg.

Under the new system, responsibility for planning and programming their capital expenditure will be devolved to the health authorities. Decisions about the timing of particular projects will, therefore, be for them to consider in the light of competing demands for resources.

What is the point in talking about responsibility being devolved locally when decision-making will depend upon the capital available? Therefore, will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question that he avoided earlier this afternoon and tell us whether the hospital that has always been intended for west Monmouthshire will or will not be sabotaged as a result of the present capital expenditure arrangements? It is not a question of priorities; it is a question of money. Will the money be available for the hospital at Panteg?

I find it hard to take such an attack from a party which massively cut the Health Service budget in Wales. The new capital financing programme is coming into effect because we are following a policy of disengagement. We have done so since 1979–80 and it has been welcomed by the health authorities. The case for the west Gwent hospital must be made to the health authority and it is for the authority to accept that. The question of financing will then arise, and that will probably be a matter for the authority. As I explained earlier, any project costing more than £2 million will need to have approval from the Welsh Office and any project costing more than £3 million will require Treasury approval.

The hon. Gentleman has still not answered the question. Will the cuts announced by the Chancellor last week, which specifically deal with the Health Service—because part of the reason for the cuts is that the family practitioner service is spending too much —affect the Health Service in Wales and will the west Gwent hospital be affected by the cuts?

That hospital has not as yet been justified before the Gwent health authority. That is the first step. The question posed by the hon. Member does not, therefore, arise.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many buildings in the ownership of the Church Commissioners are open to the public; and if he will make a statement.

The commissioners own a number of buildings of historical and architectural interest, principally former or present bishops' residences. In nine such cases, where security, access and the convenience of the occupants permit, appropriate arrangements are made for them to be open to the public.

May I raise the question of locked churches with my hon. Friend, although I know that he does not have any direct responsibility for that? Is he aware that about 80 per cent. of churches are locked to prevent vandalism and theft—

Order. The hon. Gentleman must make his question relevant.

Up to 80 per cent. of the churches that relate to the church buildings my hon. Friend mentioned in his reply—for which I thank him—are locked against theft and vandalism. Will my hon. Friend reconsider the suggestion that I made in the House in March, that teams of church watchers should be appointed to see that churches are kept open so that people may have access to them for their spiritual needs and simply to visit them?

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for recognising that the Church Commissioners, for whom I answer, do not have direct responsibility for the kind of buildings to which he referred in his supplementary question. When he raised the matter last on 15 March 1982 it aroused considerable interest. I hold in my hand a report produced by the diocese of Bradford on that very point and I shall gladly send him a copy. It must be a matter for initiative at parish level.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, answering for the House of Commons Commission, what subjects he expects to be discussed at the next meeting between the Commission and trade union representatives of House employees.

Negotiations and consultations have usually been carried on between representatives of management and trade unions, without the direct involvement of the Commission.

Now that the new Commission has been appointed, can we expect to see the abandonment of reactionary proposals such as the no-strike clause in employees' contracts? What are the prospects for better industrial relations in the House of Commons now that the previous chairman has gone to further his ambitions in the House of Lords?

From the beginning, the Commission's objective has been to have good relationships with the staff of the House and to ensure that its business proceeds without impediment. The view that it should so proceed is widely shared by those who work here and by hon. Members. There is a world of difference between that and no-strike agreements. It is on that basis that negotiations have taken place and I understand that they are proceeding satisfactorily.

Does my hon. Friend accept that it would harm industrial relations not one jot if all the loyal staff who worked in the Palace of Westminster were given two tickets per Session for the Public Gallery?

My hon. Friend makes an interesting suggestion. It would normally fall to be considered by the Services Committee rather than by the Commission, but I shall endeavour to ensure that it is so considered.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts what steps are planned to promote arts sponsorship by companies and individuals.

My noble Friend, the Minister for the Arts, intends to take every suitable opportunity to promote the sponsorship campaign.

Is our noble Friend considering sponsorship as a means of funding the proposed Theatre museum?

My noble Friend will not rule out any such suggestion if it is made.

Does the Minister accept that any additional funding from private sources for the Theatre museum must be supplementary to the promises made by the Government? Is the Minister aware that the GLC is considering modifying the terms of its contract for the sale of the site at Covent Garden so that it will cost the Government a mere £250,000? In view of that, will the Minister undertake, on behalf of the Minister for the Arts, that the contract will be signed straight away, as we were promised at our delegation the other day?

I must make some matters clear. My noble Friend's position is that he has had to review his budget in view of the request for savings by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. There is no question, as things stand, of his committing money from this year's arts budget to a start on the Theatre museum.

Oh!

If the situation were to change in a number of respects — one can imagine a number of respects in which it might change — obviously the decision will be reviewed.

On the question of companies, will the Minister examine the metal detecting business? Were he and his Department as concerned as some of us at the lead letter in The Times on Saturday about the Hambledon iron age harness which was sold at Sotheby's for about £59,000? Does that not raise serious questions for the export review body and raise the whole—

Order. The question is about plans to promote sponsorship of the arts.

I thought that the question related to companies and their sponsorship. What are the Government going to do about Henry Cleere's complaints?

I welcome the opportunity to draw that important matter to the attention of my noble Friend the Minister for the Arts. I shall also draw the matter to the attention of other Ministers in my Department, because it is relevant to them.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts what subjects he expects to discuss at his next meeting with the chairman of the Arts Council.

They will discuss matters of mutual current concern.

Has the Minister seen the Arts Council leaflet that points out that local authorities' financial support for the arts is 70 per cent. more than the Government's and over 4,000 per cent. more than that which comes from business sponsorship? Will the Government take steps to improve their own performance and to encourage local authorities to maintain their support for the arts, because it is obvious from the figures that the level of business sponsorship is paltry and no substitute for the public funding of the arts?

The level of business sponsorship has risen, is rising and has reached about £12 million a year. That is not a large contribution, but it is extremely useful on the margin. Of course, local authorities and central Government have roles, but no one should undervalue the increasing efforts by the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts and by businesses direct.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the future for financing the arts lies with sponsorship? Will he seriously consider the position of the Friends of the Manchester Galleries, which is pursuing sponsorship with effect, because that is the way forward?

That organisation, and others like it, does much good and deserves nothing but encouragement from the House. I am happy to pay tribute to it.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts, pursuant to the reply to the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, North-East (Mr. Freud), Official Report, 27 June, c. 343, if he will list the present policies of support for the theatre.

Government support is given through the Arts Council. A one-off grant has also been made to the theatre investment fund.

Does my hon. Friend accept that all who enjoy the theatre and make use of it are grateful to the Government for their help? Is he aware of the expense of theatre tickets and the burden of VAT on the theatre? Will my hon. Friend make a strong attempt to persuade the Chancellor to do something about that?

Over the years many people have argued for that objective. There is European pressure to take into account. Anyone going to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to argue the case for a diminution in the tax base now will have a difficult task.

Why does my hon. Friend refer to a one-off grant in relation to the theatre investment fund? Is this not the second time that such a grant has been made, and is it not an admirable way to help the theatre?

I used the words "one-off" because no commitment was made to make regular payments. A case for an additional one-off payment could be made from time to time.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts if he will list the incentives being given by Her Majesty's Government to sponsors of the arts, both in respect of private individuals and companies; and if he will make a statement.

Considerable tax incentives are available to individuals and companies for donations to charities, including arts charities. These were improved by the last Government. There also exist various capital tax privileges for private owners of works of art of national importance. These were listed in a booklet published by the Office of Arts and Libraries last July. Since then my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced a further concession on VAT in the case of acceptances in lieu of tax and private treaty sales.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, though tax concessions to the arts exist, they are pretty miserly? Does he agree that if they were extended with a little more corporate generosity it would be a self-financing exercise for the arts?

I am not sure that I wholly agree. Businesses and individuals are often ignorant of the tax concessions that are now available through the convenant scheme. Pressure has been brought to bear to introduce the full American system. I am sure that my noble Friend will consider that in response to the Education, Science and Arts Committee report. One of the things that we should do first is to make it clear to people that considerable concessions exist, which, if used fully, could be of great benefit to the country and to the arts.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the arts tend to flourish more under the idiosyncratic patronage of individuals than under the more cautious approach of committees sponsored by Government organisations?

My hon. Friend has, perhaps, some contributions that may be gratefully received by the arts organisations. The spirit of my hon. Friend's question is that pluralism is necessary and that the flow of funds should not be over-centralised. Pluralism should involve various sources of central Government and local authority funding as well as funding by individuals and private companies.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts when he expects to complete his scrutiny into the finances of the Royal Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company.

My noble Friend expects to receive the report during August and to complete the scrutiny when he has received the comments of the Arts Council and the two companies.

Can my hon. Friend assure the House that there has been every opportunity for all members of staff of both companies to be interviewed by the scrutiny team, to ensure that any waste, duplication or overmanning has come to light?

I shall bring that question to my noble Friend's attention, so that he may check with the scrutiny team and so that I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts when he intends to reply to the report from the Education, Science and Arts Committee on the public and private funding of the arts.

The hon. Member will have noticed that my brief runs only up to question 28 —[Interruption.]

Resign.

If Opposition hon. Members below the Gangway will be quiet they may hear, in reply to the supplementary question, an answer that will interest them.

Private notice question. Mr. David Harris.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—

Order. I will take points of order after the private notice question — I apologise to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher). He has not asked his supplementary question.

I am sorry to hear that the Minister's knowledge of the arts runs out after question 28. How will he tackle the massive per capita imbalance in arts funding between London and the regions, which can vary by between 300 per cent. and 1,000 per cent.? What steps does the Minister propose to take to ensure a fairer distribution of arts funding?

That question brings in very complex issues. Some of the great, nationally funded institutions have a regional output in terms of touring and other arrangements. The figures show that over the past 20 years the balance has moved steadily in favour of the regions, but my noble Friend keeps the issue under close review and will continue to do so.

I again apologise to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher). I hope that we have now disposed of the points of order.