asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on security in Northern Ireland, particularly with reference to cross-border co-operation.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the degree of co-operation provided by the Government of the Republic of Ireland in the pursuit and apprehension of those accused of criminal offences in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation within the Province.

Since I last answered questions on 12 May, eight members of the security forces and four civilians have died as a result of the security situation in the Province.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. I am sure that the whole House will wish to express its admiration for the sacrifices made by the security forces and the RUC. On Tuesday the Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Republic of Ireland will be in London. During his visit, will my right hon. Friend mention the importation of weapons from the Republic into Northern Ireland and see whether control can be tightened by closer cross-border co-operation? For example, today there was a rocket attack in Londonderry, which was probably caused by an imported rocket.

I am grateful for what my hon. Friend said. There is another question on the Order Paper about the visit of the Republic of Ireland Minister for Foreign Affairs. I shall take every opportunity to impress upon him the need for maximum co-operation across the border, particularly with regard to weapons.

May I, too, express my admiration for those who lost their lives and echo the words of the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr)? As four UDR men were so tragically blown up in a convoy last week, and as there have been similar instances involving Army convoys, is the Secretary of State satisfied that every effort is being made to pinpoint such traps before the event, perhaps by using increased air surveillance?

I am satisfied that every effort is made to do so, by a variety of methods. The trouble is that there are an enormous number of culverts and it is extremely difficult to keep a watch on all of them. However, on several occasions recently the RUC and the security forces have successfully stopped those devices and retrieved a great deal of explosives which would otherwise have caused serious casualties.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that there can be no real security for the Ulster people, who have suffered terribly for more than 14 years from IRA terrorism, unless and until the terrorist murderers are put behind bars and kept there for the rest of their natural lives? Will he re-examine the question of the remission of prison sentences for terrorists? Surely the half remission should be brought to an end.

No terrorist who has been convicted of murder, except a man suffering from cancer, w ho was about to die, has been released since the present campaign began. I have examined the 50 per cent. remission and the system of parole that operates in Great Britain as a possible replacement for 50 per cent. remission. I believe that we are right to continue with the 50 per cent. remission. There have been examples of men returning to terrorism, but there have been many cases of men who have reformed and behaved perfectly responsibly afterwards.

How many people who are being sought by the RUC in connection with terrorist crimes are believed to be in the Republic of Ireland? In how many of those cases has the RUC asked the Garda to arrest and return them?

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the figures that he requires, because we cannot possibly know. The RUC asks for terrorists to be extradited. If the hon. Gentleman requires further information about that, I shall see what can be made available to him.

In view of the terrible list of events which the Secretary of State was obliged to read out once again, I should like to express the Opposition's gratitude to the security forces for the way in which they carry out their duties in Northern Ireland. As circumstances have changed in Northern Ireland and Sinn Fein has gone political, is the Secretary of State receiving expressions of condemnation by the new political party of acts of violence?

Far from it; quite the reverse, in fact. That should not be lost on anyone who seeks the path of peace and anyone who supports Provisional Sinn Fein and wants to make a visit here. I hope that that message will not go unheeded.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will proscribe Provisional Sinn Fein.

I have no plans to do so.

Does the Secretary of State still agree with the assessment that was made some months ago by the then Home Secretary and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis that senior members of Provisional Sinn Fein, including Gerry Adams, were involved in the commission of serious terrorist offences? If he does not, why is he still refusing to talk to them? Is it not the case that Provisional Sinn Fein forms the essential propaganda element in the terrorist campaign that is being waged in Northern Ireland, and is it not time that the Government declared this organisation illegal?

My reason for refusing to talk to such people is clear, and I wish that this practice was followed by a good many others. Until people renounce violence, they should not be talked to. The problem arises when they represent the views of constituents. In those circumstances, there will be infrequent occasions when, as part of a deputation which perhaps consists of other Members of Parliament or Members of the Assembly, one has to see them. I hope that the clear message will go out from the House that while Provisional Sinn Fein acts unconstitutionally and supports violence, although no charges of violence can be brought against individuals, I hope that nobody will pay any attention to what its members say until they renounce violence.

Following the Secretary of State's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Mr. McCusker), will he use his influence, following the example of the Government of the Republic of Ireland, to ensure that Provisional Sinn Fein is not given radio and television time, bearing in mind that that is the way in which it backs up its support for active terrorists?

There is a difficulty in that regard, because we do not control who has television and radio time. If we did, I could perhaps go further and agree with the hon. Gentleman's suggestion.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what consultations he anticipates having during the forthcoming recess with the Government and Ministers of the Republic of Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has plans to meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he next intends to meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland to discuss matters relating to Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to hold discussions with the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland.

I intend to meet the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Peter Barry, during his visit to London next week. I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland.

In his dealings with Ministers of the Republic of Ireland, will the Secretary of State bear in mind that their ideas of how Northern Ireland should be governed are designed to achieve a united Ireland? Will he also remember that what other nations regard as friendly relations, Dublin regards as mechanisms for proceeding towards that objective?

I do not go as far as the hon. Gentleman in his assessment of what the Republic of Ireland regards as friendly relations with the United Kingdom. There are great advantages in having better relations—indeed, the best relations—between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. I hope that when we meet Ministers from the Republic it will not always be thought that the constitution of Northern Ireland is likely to be changed, as that is not what is involved.

When the Secretary of State meets Dr. FitzGerald, will he discuss the statement on Northern Ireland in the Queen's Speech? Will he state what steps he proposes to take to get the various groups in Northern Ireland involved in the work of the Assembly? If he does not, will it not be obvious that the Assembly is a white elephant?

I do not agree that the Assembly is a white elephant. It is doing extraordinarily valuable work and many people recognise that. The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends could help considerably by supporting the efforts that are being made to get the SDLP into the Assembly. There is no doubt that it would be a far better and more representative Assembly if the SDLP were playing a part there.

rose—

Order. I propose to follow my usual practice and call first those hon. Members whose questions are linked.

In view of the continuing tragedy in the Province, when will the Government realise that there can be no successful initiative and no political settlement without the involvement of the Government of the Republic of Ireland? Are the reports that have appeared in The Guardian this week true? It is said that British Army chiefs have argued strongly against any concept of a united Ireland, on the somewhat dubious ground that it would be unsafe for Britain from a military point of view.

I do not intend to enter into arguments that are raging in the Labour party. Good relations between the Republic and ourselves are important. That is in no way inconsistent with the right of the majority to remain part of the United Kingdom. We must find some way in which to enable the 40 per cent. or so who support the nationalist cause to identify with their feelings and traditional aspirations of a united Ireland. That is not in question at the moment.

Is it not a fact that if the stance of not wanting discussions of any type with the Republic of Ireland—which is to be found on the Bench behind me — continues, there is no hope of solving the fundamental issue of what is happening in Northern Ireland?

The proposals advocated by the hon. Gentleman would have precisely the opposite effect to that which he wishes to achieve. He could help considerably by trying to persuade the SDLP to play a part in the Assembly. The Unionists should also invite and encourage the SDLP to play a part in the Assembly, because that would be the first step to bringing the two sides together, which is essential.

Have the Government of the Republic of Ireland made any approaches to my right hon. Friend about the Irish Forum?

No, they have not.

In considering the future of the island of Ireland, will the Secretary of State examine the long and perceptive statement issued recently after the Irish conference of Catholic bishops? Is he aware that the statement contained many interesting items, including the fact that the scandal of our time was the great and growing gap between the wealthy few and the deprived? Will he draw attention to that statement and reflect upon it when he considers the future of Ireland?

I reflect on many statements that are made by people of many different religions in Northern Ireland and in the island of Ireland. I am trying—I am not sure that the Floor of the House is the best place to do it—to do as much as I can to enable people to live at peace with one another.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that most hon. Members believe that it is in Britain's interest to foster good relations between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland? Does he also accept that while the political parties in Dublin discuss how they could politically adminster the affairs of Northern Ireland, which is an integral part of another independent sovereign state, many people will continue to be suspicious, not of my right hon. Friend, but of those who have aspirations towards that part of the United Kingdom?

I agree with my hon. Friend's comments, and I hope that my talks with Mr. Barry and others will help to dispel some of the false ideas that have crept in.

In the light of a perceptive article in the Daily Telegraph this week, will the Secretary of State assure the Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland that the House and the nation are not amused by the fact that the Forum has continued, especially as one part of that Forum refuses to take its place in the Northern Ireland Assembly? Will he confirm that 31 per cent., not 40 per cent., of the people voted for Republican causes, and that Roman Catholics are taking part in the Assembly and have given evidence to it?

Several Catholics representing the Alliance party sit in the Assembly, and we welcome their role. I did not agree with much of the article in the Daily Telegraph.

Did my right hon. Friend see the press reports earlier this week which alleged that, during discussions some years ago between the right hon. Member for Morley and Leeds, South (Mr. Rees), when he was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and the then Prime Minister of the Republic of Ireland, the Irish Prime Minister said that the last thing he wished was a substantial change in the constitution if it involved a so-called British withdrawal from Northern Ireland? Will my right hon. Friend make it clear that we all want good relations, but that a forced marriage could be disastrous?

Forced marriages are never successful. I shall not enter into discussions about what was said by former Secretaries of State in other Governments to Prime Ministers of other countries.

Will the Secretary of State bear in mind in the forthcoming discussions, and in future similar discussions, that the British people will not always put up with the fact that any proposals to bring together all sides in the whole of Ireland are vetoed by one group in the United Kingdom? Does he agree that Parliament and the Government must take into account the interests and views of the entire British population, and that there should be an end to a veto that blocks negotiation and discussion on the future of the Province?

Several people have the right of veto, but the wish of the majority must be respected. That does not alter the fact that the minority also have rights and aspirations which the House should take into account. I am trying to do that.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Opposition would encourage him to talk to as many people and groups as possible, except those who advocate violence, and that we would encourage discussions with the Government of the South? As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) said, if we cannot get people together across the table we should adopt policies that will help them to grow together. I endorse my hon. Friend's suggestions.

I always listen carefully to advice from all sections and from all parties in the House. The more the House speaks with a united voice, the more likely we are to make progress in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the future of the Larne to Belfast rail link.

The Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company are reviewing the financial requirements of the Province's railways over the next decade on the basis of a corporate plan prepared by Northern Ireland Railways. This review is designed to ensure that public transport resources are used as effectively as possible, and includes the operational activity of the Lame to Belfast rail link.

Does the Minister accept that the absence of a cross-city link means that rail services in Northern Ireland are inadequate?

The construction of the link must be determined in the light of our judgment of the effects of the recently-opened M1-M2 link on the city's traffic patterns. As I told the hon. Gentleman last week, I hope to travel on the Belfast to Lame line during the next few days.

Will the Minister ensure that the review to which he referred includes consideration of the practicability and desirability of renewing the rail connection to Newry and Warrenpoint?

I shall be happy to review everything during the next financial year, and I shall certainly review what the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many Scots travel from Stranraer to Larne to join that line, and that any reduction in the service to Belfast would be most disappointing to them?

I note what my hon. Friend says and I shall bear it in mind when I consider the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied that Her Majesty's Government provide sufficient funds to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive to enable it to maintain its houses in Belfast adequately.

I hope to discuss this matter shortly with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, but I should make it clear that the funds allocated to the housing executive for maintenance in the current year reflect the spending requirements agreed between my Department and the executive when public expenditure allocations for 1983–84 were being considered.

Is the Minister aware that several houses in estates managed by the housing executive within the inner city complex are not wind and weather-proof? Will he provide some money before the onset of winter, to help resolve the problem?

I know how worried the hon. Gentleman is about the matter, because I had a brief word with him about it in Belfast a few days ago. I repeat that the amount of money being spent at present is that agreed between the Department and the housing executive last winter. However, the executive is aware that it can seek approval to increase the allocation if we can shift resources round within the total budget. I shall certainly discuss the matter with the housing executive.

If expenditure on renovation and repairs were significantly increased, would not that not only improve the quality of housing but provide employment in the construction industry?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that expenditure on maintenance by the housing executive increased from £31·1 million in 1979–80 to £48·2 million in 1982–83, with a consequent effect on employment in the construction industry.

Does it not show clearly the Government's double standards to make announcements about increasing allocations for an area of the country which has been hit by massive unemployment over a long period, when later today another Minister will propose massive cuts in the money allocated to local authorities, principally in Scotland, but no doubt later in England, and tell them to cut their housing and welfare services and to hammer the poor, the homeless and the elderly?

I suspect that that is a little far from the question on the Order Paper.

No, it is not.

Any reference to double standards is certainly far removed from the Northern Ireland Office.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the problems facing my constituents who live in Orlit cottages because of the housing executive's lack of initiative in rehabilitating those cottages to provide the basic facilities required?

I understand that the housing executive considered the problem of Orlit cottages at its meeting yesterday morning and made proposals which will shortly be put to the Department. It is important that we resolve that problem as soon as we can, because I am aware of the considerable anxiety that it has caused to many tenants and owners.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he has any proposals to allow the transfer of a greater share of government to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied with the way the new Assembly is working.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is his policy towards the future of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The people of Northern Ireland will continue to be offered, through the Assembly and the Northern Ireland Act 1982, a framework within which there can be agreement on devolution among representatives from both sides. It is for the Assembly to put forward devolution proposals. The Government's view is that stable political arrangements can come about only through arrangements that enjoy substantial support from both sides of the community. Until such agreement is possible, the Assembly will continue to have the functions, which it has already set about with vigour, of considering proposals for draft legislation and scrutinising the activities of the Northern Ireland Departments.

Is not my right hon. Friend in danger of sacrificing the future effectiveness of the Assembly on the altar of SDLP intransigence? Should he not reconsider the 70 per cent. provision and see whether there is some other way to sound out the majority view in Northern Ireland about the way in which the Assembly might progress in the future?

No. The key issue is not the SDLP but the fact that any arrangement to devolve power to a Northern Ireland Assembly would simply not work unless it had widespread acceptance throughout the community. Moreover, I do not believe that bringing orders before this House which did not have that widespread accceptance would gain acceptance here.

Does the Secretary of State agree that it is time we stopped treating Northern Ireland as a colony? Should we not withdraw the Unionist veto, so that we can get down to discussing the politics of the situation and how to bring about a united Ireland? Does he agree that until that is done the killing, the violence and the whole hellish situation will continue?

I must tell the hon. Lady and those who might support her that the one certain way to increase the violence and lead to civil war in Northern Ireland would be to try to make the majority in Northern Ireland act in opposition to their own views. Therefore, we must seek agreement peacefully. It is no good saying that a united Ireland is the answer when we know perfectly well that that is unacceptable to the majority. We have to try to move forward rather more sensibly than that.

Having regard both to the absence of the desired consensus on devolution and to the good work done by the Assembly Committees, is it not better to proceed with a single statute book and the development of Ulster Committees of this Parliament, which could sometimes meet at Stormont?

No, Sir. As my hon. Friend knows, we have discussed that at considerable length. I do not believe that the integration of Northern Ireland into the workings of the United Kingdom in the same way as county councils, for example, operate here would be acceptable or would work.

As the right hon. Gentleman had such high hopes of the Assembly when he created it, is he not deeply disappointed that to date proposals for devolution have not been forthcoming from it?

No, I am not disappointed. I never thought that it could happen quickly. We always said that it would take some while for the Assembly to move on to the second stage. The hon. Gentleman and others do the Assembly no good, and fail to give it the recognition that it should have, by constantly carping because it has not yet moved to a further stage. I hope that it will do so, but I think that it will take time.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when the new Antrim area hospital will be completed.

The Government remain committed to the modernisation and rationalisation of services in the northern board area. I am having discussions with the board to determine how the cost and construction of the new hospital can be accommodated within planned spending programmes, but I am not yet in a position to say when the hospital will be completed.

Does the Minister agree that further delay on the new hospital is intolerable in view of the undertakings given by successive Governments?

I hope to open the Antrim group school of nursing in late September or early October. By the time that happy event takes place, I hope to be in a position to say something more positive than I have been able to say today.

Does my hon. Friend intend to allow private firms to tender for catering, cleaning and similar services in the new Antrim hospital?

Of course.

Does the Minister realise how deeply disappointing his answer will be to my constituents, as the Coleraine hospital will not be built until the Antrim hospital is completed? Which generation of my constituents can look forward to a new hospital in Coleraine?

I hope that the regional strategic plan, which will shortly go to the Assembly, and what I am able to say in the autumn will go some way to reassure the hon. Gentleman's constituents about the improvement of facilities and the rationalisation of acute care facilities in the board area.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the ratio of unemployed persons to unfilled vacancies, on the latest available figures.

At June 1983 the ratio of unemployed persons to registered unfilled vacancies in Northern Ireland was 68:1.

I am sure the Minister recognises that that ratio tells a sorry story and that unemployment in Northern Ireland doubled under the previous Conservative Administration. Is he aware that the further cuts in public spending rumoured in certain newspapers will add to the dreadful unemployment in Northern Ireland? Will he give a commitment that he will resist further cuts in public spending?

I welcome the hon. Gentleman to our Northern Ireland proceedings. I hope that he will continue to play a part and will visit us in Northern Ireland. There is no denying the seriousness of unemployment in the Province. The Government are tackling it in the best way that they can. Those who clamour for further increases in expenditure will not achieve the objective that they seek. If, as I hope, there continues to be a proper and prudent approach to Government expenditure in Northern Ireland, it will benefit from the lower interest rates and other advantages that follow.

Is not the figure of 68:1 an appalling measure of this Government's disastrous economic policies, and a terrible warning to the rest of the country? Does not that figure show more than anything else that the economy is not recovering? Is it not equally clear that the investment in the pipeline will not significantly improve that figure? What steps will the Government take to alleviate unemployment and, above all, improve the availability of jobs in Northern Ireland?

The hon. Gentleman is making the great mistake of attaching too much importance to that figure. What matters is the small increase in the number of vacancies that are appearing. The position has improved, albeit marginally, over the past six months and that is a cause for small encouragement.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if, in view of the jury's findings in the inquest into the death of Stephen McConomy, he will introduce stricter measures to control the firing of baton rounds.

The Chief Constable and the GOC have issued clear instructions which ensure that baton rounds are used only when other means of controlling disturbances are ineffective and the risks are justified. I have reviewed the situation in the light of the recent inquest and I do not consider that the present instructions require amendment, but we continue to look for acceptable alternatives.

Does the Minister accept that the evidence given at the inquest on this young boy showed that the plastic bullet gun was defective and that this defect contributed to, if not caused, the boy's death? Is not the conclusion, in the light of 14 deaths so far through the use of plastic and rubber bullets in Northern Ireland, that these are dangerous weapons and, unless they are banned, further deaths will follow?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the defective weapon was one of the factors considered by the Director of Public Prosecutions, who decided that no prosecution should take place. I can give the House an example of the problems with which the police have to deal. Last Saturday, the police in Londonderry were attacked with 350 petrol bombs and in one night in May they were attacked by 500 petrol bombs and nine live shots. These are the problems that we ask our people in Northern Ireland to deal with, and they must have the weapons that they feel are necessary to protect themselves.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the House will be grateful to him for reminding us why the security forces have to use baton rounds—because of the terror and intimidation? Is it not a great credit to the security forces that they can carry out their duties when any other country's security forces, faced with this problem, would use not baton rounds but live bullets?

It is a constant source of wonderment and admiration that, in the light of enormous provocation, the Royal Ulster Constabulary and our forces in Northern Ireland behave in the manner they do. We should not underestimate what would happen if our forces in Northern Ireland were not as efficient, professional and impartial as they now are.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has for further discussions with political parties in Ireland.

I keep in touch with representatives of the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland, although I have no specific plans at present for formal discussions with them. As I said in my reply to a question by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) on 12 May 1983, I am also happy to explain Government policy to representatives of constitutional parties from the Republic of Ireland and to hear their views.

When will the Government resort to common sense and try to organise a constitutional conference of political representatives on an all-Ireland basis, along the lines of the Lancaster House conference on Zimbabwe, to work out a new constitution for an independent, united Ireland so that the people of Ireland can decide their own destiny without British interference?

I regard such questions as being about as mischievous as they can possibly be.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people convicted of terrorist offences in Northern Ireland are believed to have taken refuge in the United States of America; and if he will make a statement.

One person convicted of a terrorist-type offence in Northern Ireland is known to have taken refuge in the United States, and proceedings have been started to extradite him.

Has my hon. Friend noticed the partiality with which the United States courts seem to interpret the phrase "political crimes"? Has he observed that whenever the Israeli Government want the extradition of somebody arrested on a criminal charge that person is always returned, but when Her Majesty's Government make the same request the courts seem frequently to find excuses for not doing so? Will my hon. Friend bring this discrepancy to the attention of the American Government, through the Foreign Office?

It is not for me to comment on the decisions of courts in the United States, or any other country. I am satisfied that the authorities in the United States act in accordance with the extradition treaty between our two countries.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 21 July.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I am attending a dinner given by the British Jewish community to pay tribute to Mr. Shlomo Argov.

Will the Prime Minister spell out where the further proposed £5 million cuts are to be made? Is she aware that if they are to be made in education, social services and housing, that could lead to further social disorder? I challenge the Prime Minister to pay an early visit to Liverpool to see at first hand what effect her policies are having—or has she not got the guts to make such a visit?

We have decided, as I said on Tuesday, to stick to the public planned totals of expenditure for this year, next year and the succeeding years. It was on those totals that we fought the election. As to Liverpool, not all is bad on Merseyside. Cammell Laird has won an order for an accommodation rig for Morecambe Bay, Vauxhall has announced the introduction of double shift working in Ellesmere Port, General Motors' AC Delco plant in Kirkby recently announced a large order for the United States, Kodak has recently invested £10 million in Knowsley and there have been announcements of substantial investment by Higsons Brewery, Shell and Ford among others. I am aware that the hon. Gentleman does not like good news, but that is good news.

Can the right hon. Lady add to her remarks by telling us more about Merseyside? What is the figure for the increase in unemployment on Merseyside since she took office in May 1979? Also, has she seen reports of suggestions by Sir Terence Beckett of the CBI that jobs in the public services should be cut by 360,000 next year, and does she agree with that?

I cannot give figures for specific areas. When we came into office unemployment was about 1·3 million and it is now about 3·1 million. If the right hon. Gentleman wants figures for a particular travel-to-work area we can give them to him. The CBI is correct in expecting the Government to keep strict control on public spending, especially as every penny piece of public spending eventually comes from the private sector, and the greater the public spending, the greater the burden upon its back. With regard to the numbers employed in the public sector, the CBI is right in expecting us to be as efficient in the use of our manpower as it is expected to be in the use of its.

in that case, can the Prime Minister tell us how much she thinks the cut of 360,000 in public service numbers proposed by Sir Terence Beckett would cost the Exchequer, and what her reckoning is of how much this would cost in unemployment pay and lost taxes? If she agrees with Sir Terence's proposals, does she also agree with the cuts of 130,000 in education and 80,000 in the Health Service? When did she mention that during the general election?

The right hon. Gentleman is very much aware that we have constantly said that we must have efficient use of manpower throughout the whole of the public service. If the right hon. Gentleman cares to look at the published figures he will see that between 1960 and now the numbers employed by central Government have gone up very considerably—indeed, by a full 20 per cent. over that period.

Will the right hon. Lady tell us clearly whether she agrees with Sir Terence Beckett's proposed 80,000 cuts in the number of people employed in the Health Service?

I have not seen the full details of the specific cuts that he is recommending. I am proud that under this Government the Civil Service is down to its lowest numbers for 15 years. The right hon. Gentleman will know that last February we announced a management review of the National Health Service. We should be careful in the way in which we use taxpayers' money and we should have maximum efficiency in management. I note that the right hon. Gentleman does not want either. He wants extravagance, inefficiency, high taxation and high costs.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 21 July.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Will my right hon. Friend take time to consider the recent CBI remarks that excessive Government expenditure is likely to lead to higher taxation and higher interest rates and that will inevitably lead to the bankrupting of a substantial number of firms and further unemployment?

Yes. Excessive public expenditure has to be borne by industry and commerce. Therefore, we must be careful to keep down the total amount of public expenditure, otherwise taxation will go up. It was the previous Labour Government who put the national insurance surcharge on industry and commerce. It was this Government, by virtue of their good financial management, who managed to take £2 billion from the taxation of industry and commerce.

If the Prime Minister is so convinced that the CBI is right, what is her response to the other side of its argument, that there should be more Government spending on capital projects of the kind that generates employment in private industry?

The two points are not incompatible. As the hon. Gentleman will be well aware, I have said many times from this Dispatch Box that within the planned total of Government expenditure it would in many ways be better if we allocated a larger proportion to capital expenditure. But that requires cutting down on current expenditure and when it comes to securing such reductions few people will agree them. Therefore, increased capital expenditure includes an increased total expenditure, which again would put an extra burden on industry.

To save public expenditure will the Prime Minister find time today to abolish the Review Body on Top Salaries, if it has not already had the good sense to resign?

The Review Body on Top Salaries looks at a number of salary scales other than those of Members of Parliament and Ministers, and those other people would prefer the review body to continue its work.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 21 July.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Has the Prime Minister given consideration this week to the message that came loud and clear from the magnificent Durham miners' centenary gala, which was held last Saturday, to the effect that the closure of pits on economic grounds alone will be fiercely resisted throughout the British coalfields? When will the right hon. Lady realise the devastation that is caused to mining communities by such closures, particularly when her Government do not provide alternative employment? Finally, will the right hon. Lady now dismiss Mr. Ian MacGregor before he starts his butchery, which will cause such social unrest in Britain?

The amount to be found by taxpayers through the external financing limit for coal this year is in excess of £1 billion. That is in addition to the money that they have to pay for coal and electricity. Under "Plan for Coal", which was published in 1974, it was assumed that on average 3 million to 4 million tonnes of exhausted capacity would be closed every year. In fact, closures have averaged just over 1 million tonnes a year. It was assumed that there would be substantial investment in coal and under this Government investment in the coal industry has amounted to more than £3 billion. So the investment programme has been in excess of that contained in Labour's "Plan for Coal", although the closures have not.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is essential to keep strict control of public expenditure, because the previous Labour Government's failure to maintain strict control on Government expenditure meant that we had to go cap in hand to the IMF?

Yes, I agree totally with my hon. Friend. It is necessary to keep strict control of public expenditure, otherwise we shall have to resort either to excessive borrowing, in which case interest rates will rise and the recovery will be aborted, or to much higher taxation, both on people and industry. Both would be bad.

Bearing in mind that the school summer holidays begin tomorrow, is the Prime Minister concerned that there is no comprehensive public provision to care for and entertain children during the school holidays, particularly as most parents have to work to make ends meet? Does she not think that it is a scandalous gap in public services, about which the Government should do something?

No. I do not believe that it is up to the Government to provide comprehensive care for school children during school holidays. It is up to local authorities to see that the maximum use is made of buildings, playing fields and swimming pools during the recess and to work with parents and teachers to that end.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 21 July.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the reply that was given yesterday by her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in which he said that he intended during this Parliament to privatise British Telecom, the British Steel Corporation, Rolls-Royce and other industries under his Department? Given the benefit that will accrue to the taxpayer and the consumer from that programme, will my right hon. Friend ensure that it is implemented as expeditiously as possible?

Yes, we shall implement that programme as quickly as we can, bearing in mind that in some cases we have to get legislation through the House and that we must have regard to the speed at which one places those organisations on the market. It is much better for Britain to have less nationalised industry and to put more in the private sector. It is a better bargain for the consumer and it means that industry can obtain its investment from the market instead of having to rely upon Government sources.

Does the Prime Minister recognise that her Government's policies have resulted in the doubling of unemployment nationally and that in some areas on Merseyside more than 90 per cent. of the young people are without jobs? When will she realise that such unemployment is crippling individuals and decimating families? What figure will unemployment have to reach before she recognises that the Government's policies are contributing massively to unemployment?

Order. To put the record straight, that was a supplementary to question No. Q6.

The only way to create more jobs is to create goods and services which people will purchase in competition with the goods and services which they can purchase from overseas. For that purpose the Government need to keep industry's cost down, provide tax incentives that will encourage small businesses and the products of new technology, together with a research and development programme that speeds up the bringing of new products to the market. That is the Government's policy and programme and it is far more likely to produce jobs in future than any policy of Labour Members.

Does my right hon. Friend welcome the public conversion of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) to the Conservative policies for the sale of council houses, membership of the European Community and multilateral disarmament? Does she agree that it would have been a darned sight better had he said that to the electorate before rather than after the election?

I welcome the conversion of anyone to the sale of council houses, membership of the EC—upon which many jobs depend—and multilateral disarmament, which provides for the security of Britain. I note that a number of Opposition Members are very dissatisfied with both the campaign that they fought and the organisation. If they are dissatisfied with the campaign,they have only themselves to blame.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. How can the House be protected from long answers by the Prime Minister?

There are not only long answers but long questions.