asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many dwellings were (a) sold and (b) completed by local authorities in 1981, 1982 and 1983 at the latest available date.

Welsh local authorities sold 8,501 dwellings in 1981, 15,134 in 1982, and 5,327 to the end of June 1983. The figures for completions in the same periods were 3,370, 1,771 and 837, respectively.

Does the Minister agree that that shameful picture shows that only a small proportion of the houses that have been sold are being replaced, and that Thursday's economic statement is likely to mean that virtually all house building is likely to dry up in Wales? Are not the Government responsible for those who do not have the financial resources to buy their own houses—single-parent families, and others?

The priority that local authorities give to new building is entirely a matter for them. By the end of the second quarter of this year the hon. Gentleman's local authority had spent 20 per cent. of its capital expenditure on new build. The hon. Gentleman neglects the fact that the private sector supplies dwellings and that private sector starts were 33 per cent. up last year on the year before.

Does the Minister agree that now is the appropriate time to give extra financial aid to local authorities to build more council houses?

I repeat that new building is a matter for local authorities, but they have not given a high priority to new build. New house building has been in decline for a number of years, and there was a considerable decline during the period of the Labour Government.

Does my hon. Friend agree that his answer demonstrates the immense popularity of the right to buy in Wales?

My hon. Friend is right. There is no doubt whatever about the popularity of the right to buy among secure tenants who wish to buy their public sector houses. About 33,000 public sector houses have been sold to secure tenants since October 1980.

The figures show that in some areas twice as many houses have been sold than have been built by local authorities—indeed, more than that in some areas. In view of the increasing numbers of people on the waiting lists—people who could not hope to buy houses and therefore have to rent—what proposals do the Government have to replace the rented stock?

The hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends make that point 'with what I can only call monumental monotony. It is not true that houses are lost when they are sold to secure tenants. The people who buy them would have remained as tenants. Now they are owner-occupiers. The building of new houses is a matter for local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the companies he visited during his recent visit to the United States of America; and which of those companies are seriously considering locating in Wales, in Clwyd and in Delyn, respectively.

During my visit to the United States in September I had extensive discussions with company representatives and made a number of company visits. Some of those I met are considering Wales as a location for new investment. I do not believe that it is helpful to give full details in these circumstances, but I can say that among those companies are several that are considering plans for development on Deeside.

I appreciate my right hon. Friend's reticence to go into great detail, but will he confirm that those American companies that expressed an interest in Wales are attracted not just by the British home market but by the much wider European Community market? Does he agree that if we are to take seriously the protestations of Labour Members about jobs, they must reject unconditionally their policy of withdrawal from Europe, because such a policy would drive away foreign companies, destroy thousands of existing jobs in Wales and prevent the creation of many new ones?

In almost every case—if not in every case—the prime consideration was access to the entire European market, not just to the United Kingdom market. Most of those companies consider it important to have separate research and development establishments here because of the separate and differing needs of the European market compared with the United States market.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many foreign as well as British firms would be more likely to put new facilities into Wales if he could persuade his Cabinet colleague the Secretary of State for Transport to announce the Government's plans for a second crossing of the River Severn? Does he further agree that that would be the overall morale booster that Wales requires?

I have little to add to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport said last week, when he made it clear that the Government recognise the vital importance of the Severn crossing to south Wales. He also made it clear that he was assessing the technical recommendations that he had received, together with the future needs of south Wales, and that we must decide on the strengthening of the present bridge at the same time as reaching decisions about the need for a future bridge. My right hon. Friend said that he hoped to make a statement about both issues in the relatively near future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to publish the Welsh rate support grant report 1984–85.

I hope to publish the Welsh rate support grant report for 1984–85 on 20 December.

If, as seems likely, local government becomes less and less like local government as practised in Western democracies and more and more like local government as practised in the Soviet Union, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that he publishes the rate support grant details not as he did last summer, one day after we went into recess, and not as he is proposing now, probably one day before we go into recess, but at least a week before so that we may have a proper debate on the proposals? If, as he said, building houses is entirely a matter for local authorities, will he increase the capital allocations so that local authorities can build the houses?

I answered a parliamentary question on Friday in which I set out the proposals on which I am now consulting local government, and they set out the Government's present intentions. We have a consultation process and I must complete that process. I hope that I shall be able to complete it to meet the deadline that I named. It is extremely important that we carry it through. It is also important to give the information to local authorities as early as possible—I am anxious to do that before Christmas—so as to give them a final indication of the spending position for next year.

In making his forward plans for the coming year, will my right hon. Friend ensure that consultation takes place with the Association of Local Authorities in Wales to ensure that some of the more out of date and irrelevant factors in the formula for allocations are reviewed?

I assure my hon. Friend, as I have assured him on previous occasions when he has asked similar questions, that these matters are kept under review. They have been reviewed during the course of consultation in the current year. Inevitably the formulae are arrived at as a compromise between the differing needs and views of various local authorities in Wales. I do not think that we have the balance too far out at the moment.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, on the whole, the Welsh authorities have responded well to the rate support grant settlement, and that, should it continue, that co-operation will have a beneficial effect on industrial and ordinary ratepayers in Wales?

I agree that Welsh local government has come close to achieving the targets that we set last year, and I hope that it will do so again this year. The fact that the majority of local authorities did so last year shows that the targets are achievable. I am sure that Welsh local government understands the need to keep down rate settlements in the interests of both industry and ratepayers.

Will the Secretary of State take into account what my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek) said and the representations that have been made by local authorities in Wales, namely, that the proposals in the White Paper on the future of rates are looked on by them as a great threat to local decision-making and democracy?

I have taken note of the views of local government in Wales on this issue. I must also consider the views, expressed forcefully, of industry and ratepayers, and take note of the fact that, under the proposals. that we have just put to local government, 69 per cent. of local authority expenditure will come from the general taxpayer, not the local ratepayer.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the value of the grants allocated to Wales from the European regional development fund in the past 12 months.

Forty-four million pounds.

How much in total has Wales received from the fund since its inception in 1975?

The ERDF alone has brought in about £199 million, but if one takes the total of identifiable grants and loans from the European Community as a whole, it is well over £1 billion. In fact, it is about £1·123 million in total.

As Wales is among the poorest of the regions in the EC, does the Secretary of State accept the need not only for a radical reform of the EC budget, but to divert money into the regional development fund, hopefully for the future benefit of the Principality?

We must watch the total spending of the Community as well as the way in which it is distributed, but obviously it would be in the interests of Wales to see more of the total budget spent on regional policies of the kind referred to by the hon. Gentleman than on existing priorities.

Does the Minister agree that his time would be better spent protecting the industries of Wales, particularly those that are reeling as a result of the harmonisation of industry directives in Europe, such as what happened at Chicopee, with the consequent loss of thousands of jobs to Wales in recent years, than scrambling about in America for vague promises of new industries to fulfil the demands of the European market?

The vague promises of new industries to which the hon. Gentleman refers are, in fact, an all-time record number of factory allocations this year—about 1·5 million sq ft of Government factory space allocated—and a record number of selective financial assistance applications for new jobs. They are all solid proposals and represent an important diversification and strengthening of the Welsh economy.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many advance factories have been (a) built and (b) allocated in Wales since May 1979.

Since May 1979, 1,320 advance factories have been completed by the Welsh Development Agency, Cwmbran development corporation and the Development Board for Rural Wales, providing more than 7 million sq ft of new industrial space. The total amount of space available is 3·5 million sq ft, which is about 15 per cent. of the total stock; 1,124 factories—6·9 million sq ft of space—have been allocated since May 1979.

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on that answer. Does he agree that it demonstrates the continuing success of his policy of trying to attract new industries to Wales and, in particular, the growing confidence of industry in the region?

It is encouraging that, after last year's record factory allocation in Wales, the figures are again significantly up this year and that the potential number of jobs to be created in these factories is strikingly up.

Will the Secretary of State assure the people of Wales that when attempting to promote employment in these new advance factories he will dissociate himself from the recent view expressed by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry that areas of high unemployment should be areas where low wages are paid?

Relative wage rates undoubtedly affect the prosperity of individual companies and, therefore, the attractions of a particular area; but there is also a wide variety of other factors, including infrastructure, the availability of skills and so on. All those factors will be set out in the White Paper on regional policy which the Government intend to publish. There will be plenty of opportunities for individuals and organisations to express views on the weight to be attached to those factors.

How many of those advance factories have been let to those operating in the service industries in Wales?

I cannot immediately give an answer to that question. However, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, it is now the policy to provide space for the service sector on WDA industrial parks. An increasing number of these factories and units are being taken by the service sector. Many of them provide more jobs than would be provided by comparable industrial manufacturing concerns.

Do not these figures give us some reason for hope, as they tend to demonstrate that an increasing number of companies from this country and overseas are seeing the advantages of settling in Wales?

I think that they are encouraging. For example, applications received since January for selective financial assistance are associated with about 12,000 new jobs. Not all of those will come to a successful conclusion, but they are significant figures and represent an increase of about 35 per cent. on the comparable figures for the same time last year.

So that we can put these figures in perspective, will the right hon. Gentleman say how many factories have been closed and how many jobs have been lost since May 1979?

About 400 factories have been surrendered. I made it clear in my answer that we had a significant amount—about: 15 per cent.—of vacant factory space. I was careful to give both sides of the figures. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an immediate answer about the number of jobs, but he will be aware that unemployment has risen during that time. However, it is important to note that, during a period of major industrial restructuring, we have been attracting such a large number of new companies, including companies involved in the new technologies.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will arrange to meet the chairman of the National Coal Board as soon as possible to discuss the proposed closure of the Wyndham western colliery, Ogmore, the position of other collieries in south Wales and the effect on employment in Wales.

I shall be meeting Mr. MacGregor on 6 December and expect to discuss with him a wide range of matters relating to the coal industry.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the south Wales NUM is meeting Ian MacGregor tomorrow? Will he send an urgent message to Ian MacGregor to allow investment for the Wyndham western colliery—at least on a short-term basis—to save 500 jobs, to open up the coalfield at the Margam mine on a long-term basis and to stop treating south Wales as the Cinderella of the British coal industry?

As the hon. Gentleman is aware, on 23 September the National Coal Board announced that it proposed to close the Wyndham western pit, which has lost about £19 million in three years. Tomorrow the National Coal Board is to consider proposals put forward by the union to exploit reserves to the south of the existing mine. It is for the National Coal Board to assess those proposals, and it will be going through the normal consultation procedure tomorrow.

Does my right hon. Friend welcome the considerable investment by the National Coal Board in surveying and prospecting in the south Wales coalfields? Does not the future lie more in opening new anthracite reserves than in sustaining worked out pits?

I welcome the fact that the National Coal Board is spending £1·2 million—about 14 per cent. of its exploration budget—this year in the search for new anthracite reserves in a coalfield that produces about 7 per cent. of total output.

Will my right hon. Friend estimate how many jobs have been safeguarded, how many have been created, and how many pits have been saved by the current NUM ban on overtime?

It is certainly not the way to save pits. I understand that the south Wales miners are losing substantial sums of money for every day that the dispute continues, so it is not helping the miners either.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what further discussions have been held concerning regional aid for Wales: what was the outcome; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry will shortly be publishing a White Paper on future regional policy.

Does the Secretary of State recognise that if there is any deterioration in the position of south Wales compared with the south west, the midlands and the south east of England, that, together with all the difficulties over the Severn bridge, will turn south Wales into a twilight area? If the right hon. Gentleman cannot win the argument with his Cabinet colleagues on these basic issues, why does he not resign? At least then the people of Wales would realise that he had tried.

One of the reasons why these discussions about regional policy are taking place is that people in the west midlands and other parts of England have been complaining strongly that south Wales has been doing rather well. One of the things that we shall be discussing in the White Paper is the whole range of regional policies, as they are applied, and all the proposals and suggestions being put forward by the trade unions and others about the ways in which they can be improved. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the White Paper will not contain proposals for altering the balance between regions. The White Paper will cover a wide range of proposals and there will be a long period of consultation before we get to decisions on it.

The Secretary of State will be aware of the strenuous efforts being made to reverse the decision to close the Rover works at Cardiff with the loss of about 600 jobs. As part of regional policy, if that should occur, will the right hon. Gentleman look favourably on the proposals being put forward by a consortium in Glamorgan and south Wales for the establishment of a free port in Cardiff, which could provide at least some extra jobs?

The loss of jobs at Rover will be a severe blow to Cardiff and to the right hon. Gentleman's constituency. I assure him that the most careful consideration is being given to the proposals for free ports, including the one from Cardiff, but we are still at an early stage in our consideration of the free port proposals. I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the redevelopment of south Cardiff, on which I am working closely with the local authorities concerned on the basis of the initiative that I announced last February, will also help to provide new jobs and better opportunities in Cardiff.

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that any changes that are made are not carried out in the brutal, vicious and sudden way that the Labour Government withdrew the regional employment premium in 1976?

We are entering a considerable period of consultation based on a White Paper on subjects that have already been discussed by the NEDC and other bodies. The Government have no intention of removing an important regional aid overnight without warning, which is what the Labour Government did.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what subjects were discussed when he last met the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission committee for Wales.

We reviewed progress on a wide range of the commission's responsibilities and activities within Wales.

When the Secretary of State next meets the chairman of the Manpower Services Commission in Wales, will he raise with him a report that was recently published by the Low Pay Unit suggesting that in about 5 per cent. of all vacancies being advertised the wages are below the legal minimum, as established by the wages councils? Will he undertake to conduct a survey of all jobcentres in Wales to determine the extent of this practice and to make his findings public?

I shall be meeting the commission's committee for Wales on 9 December, and I shall put that point and ask the committee for its views.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that a little more flexibility might enable the MSC's job creation programmes to achieve even better results? I refer particularly to the social survey that has been operated by the Colwyn borough council, which had to be broken off midway because it ran into the 12-month barrier.

I shall discuss that point of detail also with the committee for Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from local authorities in Wales on his proposals for controlling the level of rates.

I have received representations from 18 local authorities in Wales, the two Welsh local authority associations, and the National Association of Local Councils, which represents some of the community councils in Wales. They all oppose the Government's proposals for limiting rate increases.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there will be general support in Wales for efforts to limit the ever-mounting rate burden? Will he continue his consultations with local authorities to endeavour to amend these proposals to ensure that they do not penalise those local authorities that have done their best to contain local expenditure but have found themselves committed in some respects to higher expenditure because that was not fully provided for in the White Paper?

I hope that the proposed legislation to control rates will not have to be applied in Wales. We should be able to avoid that measure if Welsh local authorities continue to act responsibly and keep down their rate increases. I have now started the process of consultations with the local authorities on the specific proposals for the settlement in the coming financial year. During that period of consultation I shall be listening carefully to local authorities.

Will the Secretary of State give careful consideration to the letter that he has received from Mr. M. H. Phillips, the secretary of the Welsh Counties Committee, who expressed his profound concern about the rate limitation proposals in the Government's White Paper, which he feels is the most serious threat that local government and democracy have faced for a long time? Will he try to talk some sense into his monetarist Cabinet colleagues to see whether they will have second thoughts?

I always give the most careful consideration to letters that I receive from Mr. Phillips, and from those who have to shoulder the rate burden.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will estimate the total expenditure by tourists in Wales in 1982.

The Welsh Tourist Board's estimate is £475 million.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me that encouraging figure. I am pleased at the amount that has been spent in Wales during the past year. However, as there is room for improvement, what does the Minister feel needs to be done by the Wales Tourist Board to ensure a steady flow of tourism in the Principality, year in, year out?

The board has recently published its programme strategy for growth. There are many proposals in that strategy to increase the flow of tourists into Wales, and these will always be welcome.

Is the Minister aware that one of the prime tourist attractions in Wales is Caerphilly castle? Is he aware that, through his Department, he has direct responsibility for this castle? Is he further aware that the grounds and moat of Caerphilly castle are a disgrace?

New proposals for dealing with castles and historic buildings generally have just been put forward, and I hope that we can achieve improvements to attract more tourists to Caerphilly.

Does the Minister agree that a large number of tourists in Wales arrive not by rail, but via the Severn bridge? Will the Government make a categorical statement that during their discussions they will support a second crossing of the Severn and that we shall not have any double-crossing by Ministers?

I assure the House that there will be no double-crossing by any Minister. We shall ascertain all of the facts. Our wish is to do the best that we can for the whole of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the standard of teaching in secondary schools in Wales.

While I am broadly satisfied with the standard of teaching in secondary schools in Wales, I have no doubt that there is always room for improvement. The Government's proposals to improve teaching quality are set out in the White Paper "Teaching Quality"—Cmnd. 8836—presented last March.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the criticism by Her Majesty's inspectorate of low teacher expectation in much of the state sector, particularly in respect of the education of girls? This is an aspect that should be looked at seriously.

We are aware that there is a problem to do with under-achievement. We have published a series of occasional papers, beginning last year with "Planning for Progress", aimed at helping schools and authorities to evaluate their arrangements and improve the quality of the education offered to boys and girls alike.

Is the Minister satisfied with the standard of teaching in Welsh bilingual secondary schools?

If I were satisfied I should not be discharging my responsibilities if I were to let matters remain as they are. There is always room for improvement, and there is a broad range of proposals to improve quality generally.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to improve road safety in Wales.

The trunk road programme, including the provision of bypasses, makes the major contribution to improving road safety. In addition the Government are seeking to improve personal safety. We continue to support the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and a number of road safety education and training measures.

These policies are all useful. Will my hon. Friend say whether he is doing anything to promote consciousness of road safety rules among children?

I am happy to tell the House that we recently had the finals of the Welsh inter-school road safety quiz, which were televised by HTV. I believe that my hon. Friend presented the prizes, and they were well received.

Wardell asked the Secretary of State for Wales if his Department is undertaking any studies to assess the impact on the quality of Welsh housing stock consequent upon the reduction of the 90 per cent. grant levels for home improvement grants.

The impact of this special measure, which has been understood from the beginning to apply for a limited period only, is already clear from the fact that more than 100,000 applications for renovation grants have been made since it was announced. On the assumption that the majority of these will be approved, I am confident that the effects on the housing stock will be clearly reflected in the results of the next Welsh house condition survey.

As the Minister did not say whether he intends to pursue any studies into this matter or into the appalling state of housing stock in Wales, will he tell the House the reason for cutting this rate of improvement grant?

From the outset it was made clear that this was a temporary measure. It was subsequently extended. There has never been any doubt in anyone's mind that the measure will come to an end on 31 March next year. I take this opportunity to make clear what we intend by the cut-off at the end of next March. It is a cut-off date for the receipt of applications. Thereafter, payments for these applications will continue at the 90 per cent. rate.

Does my hon. Friend welcome the record number of applications for improvement grants that have been and are still being made? Will he urge local authorities to take steps within their own administrations to speed up the processing of grants?

I understand that 29,000 grants have so far been approved but not paid. The value of those grants is between £85 million and £90 million, of which about £50 million is likely to be paid before 31 March next year. It is a matter for local authorities to decide the priority that they give to improvement, and repair grants. Special measures have been taken to enable them to deal with the flood of applications this year. For example, we have agreed that if more than 50 per cent. of their allocation is spent on improvement grants this year the amount above 50 per cent. will be met by the Government.

In what world is the hon. Gentleman living? Does he not realise that almost every local authority has had to freeze grant payments, that many householders have been left in chaos and that cowboy builders have come in as a result of the policy? Is he aware that local authorities are being asked to continue accepting applications when everyone knows that there is no money to pay the grants? Will he call a summit meeting of all the authorities that are having difficulties to see whether the problems can be resolved, instead of coming to the House with silly points?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not perpetuate the confusion in many people's minds. I repeat that the applications should be received by 31 March next year. They can be processed, approved and paid as local authorities find that they have the money to meet the requirements.

Does my hon. Friend share my astonishment that on a matter of such importance to Wales, in which Plaid Cymru has expressed a lively interest and indeed put down a question, neither Plaid Cymru Member is present for Welsh Question Time today?

I am indeed astonished——

Order. That has nothing to do with the question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has so far been made in bypassing urbanised centres in Wales; what other methods he plans for the diversion of very heavy vehicles from cities, towns and large villages; and what discussions he has had with highway authorities in the Principality about these matters.

There are frequent discussions between the Welsh Office and local highway authorities about highway matters.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that, in view of the size of many vehicles, this matter should continue to enjoy the highest priority?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I shall do all that I can to help.

Will the Minister bear in mind the need to increase traffic on the railways? Does he agree that the heavy traffic that is causing problems on the Severn bridge and elsewhere could be diverted to the railways if the Government adopted a policy of encouragement and investment for the railways?

That may be true in some instances, but the growth in lorries has led to great changes, and for many small towns and villages there is no alternative to the policy that the Government are now pursuing.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give details of local government aid to the coal industry in Wales.

That is a matter for individual local authorities. Detailed information is not available centrally.

Is it not strange that the south Wales coal industry should have to compete with European Community industries, which are heavily subsidised by local government?

Under section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972 local authorities have power to assist industry. My consent is not required. The coal industry may also benefit from other social and economic assistance provided generally by local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the types and numbers of the vacancies for craftsmen in the building industry in Cardiff.

On 2 September 1983, the latest date or which information is available, notified vacancies remaining unfilled for the Cardiff travel-to-work area totalled 63, including 44 in the Cardiff employment office area. The occupations concerned were carpenters and joiners, painters and decorators, plasterers, plumbers and pipe-fitters, mains and service layers and pipe-joiners, bricklayers and masons and electricians.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he share my concern about whether enough training is being provided to produce such craftsmen, especially with regard to his own initiative for the redevelopment of south Cardiff?

I am advised by the Manpower Services Commission in Wales, following its discussions with the Construction Industry Training Board, the National Federation of Building Trades Employers and the Federation of Master Builders, that the industry itself sees no discernible shortages in the immediate future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what information he has as to the extent to which the use of textured vegetable protein has displaced animal meat in school meals in Wales in each of the last three years; and if he will make a statement.

I am sorry to say that this information is not collected centrally.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will give urgent priority to the construction and completion of the Chirk and Ruabon bypass on the A5.

We are proceeding with both of these schemes as quickly as resources will allow. The draft compulsory purchase order for the Ruabon scheme was published on 26 October 1983 and currently work is scheduled to start in the autumn of 1985. Preparation work on the Chirk bypass is continuing.

I welcome my hon. Friend's reply. Is he prepared to say that, as soon as resources allow, the A5, which is one of the most dangerous and congested roads in the United Kingdom, will be improved further?

As my hon. Friend knows, I am fully aware of the problems. I shall certainly keep the road under constant review.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, how many members of the House catering staff are chefs, full or part-time; how many are waiters and waitresses; how these figures compare with 10 years ago; and if he will make a statement.

The Refreshment Department currently employs 56 chefs of all grades and 63 waiting staff. These figures include both full-time and part-time staff. Ten years ago the comparable figures were 39 chefs and 60 waiting staff.

Bearing in mind the very high standards of service given by the chefs and waiting staff of the House, and the increase in their number in the past 10 years, is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that the standard of food served to Members is commensurate with the high standard of performance and the increase in numbers?

The increase in numbers dates mainly from the introduction of the dual shift system in 1977. I am generally a very satisfied customer of the Dining Rooms of the House, but responsibility for what they serve is a matter for the Services Committee.

Will the Commission consider creating more jobs for waiters and waitresses by allowing visitors, whom most Members receive, to partake of refreshments in the Dining Room or in a special dining room provided for the purpose?

Again, that is a matter for the Services Committee. The Commission's duty is to ensure that the Refreshment Department has the necessary staff to carry out its responsibilities.

Is it not slightly mischievous of my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) to congratulate the chefs and then to criticise the food? Will the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) point out to everyone—those who read Hansard as well as those present today—that Members of Parliament pay the economic rate for their meals?

That is so, and it is borne out by the healthy trading profit that the Refreshment Department normally manages to produce. The Commission will be seeking from the Department targets for its future pricing policy and capital investment, bearing in mind the success that it has achieved so far.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, whether the Commission will arrange to meet trade union representatives of employees of the House.

In the view of the Commission, negotiations and consultations are normally best conducted by representatives of management and staff within established channels.

In view of the legitimate concern about the fact that a staff inspector was appointed before his terms of reference were agreed with the unions, may we have a guarantee that the same thing will not happen in relation to the new appointment of an internal auditor? When is that appointment likely to be made and will the auditor's duties extend in any way to Members as well as to staff?

The Commission has not completed its consideration of the internal audit procedures, in particular of those aspects which relate mainly to the Refreshment Department rather than to the direct concerns of Members of Parliament. I shall convey the hon. Gentleman's representation's to the Commission. I understand that the staff inspector is working in close co-operation with trade unions.

When the Commission has consultations with the trade unions side, will it make it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that the business of Parliament is paramount and that we expect no repetition of past events in terms of industrial action being taken against this place?

It is the view of most right hon. and hon. Members, and in the interests of the trade unions, that the business of the House should proceed without interruption. That view has been loyally supported by the staff who work in the House. Constructive negotiations to ensure that it remains the case are proceeding.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts, whether Her Majesty's Government will make it their policy to change the balance of funding for the arts from public to private sources.

No, Sir. The Government expect to maintain the real level of public spending on the arts and we expect that private funding will provide an increasingly important supplement.

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is great scope for entrepreneurial initiative in the arts, especially as it will help save the taxpayer expense in certain circumstances?

I agree that there is an extremely important role for private sponsorship and entrepreneur-ship in the arts. That role has been growing recently.

How does the Minister's answer affect the problem that will occur when, as is proposed, the metropolitan counties and the GLC are abolished, as they contribute more than £11 million in arts funding?

The hon. Gentleman knows that my noble Friend has published a list of some large organisations that will get additional central funding. Moreover, there will be an opportunity and a need for district and borough councils to do their bit to help organisations in the future.

Although I welcome the fact that my hon. Friend hears no Philistine voice saying that the Government should reduce support for the arts, would it not be valuable if the Government could give some financial encouragement to private art patrons so that the arts can receive more than the Government are able to afford?

That is one of the Select Committee's recommendations, to which the Government will reply in due course. My noble Friend has been able to secure a modest but valuable increase in real terms in public arts spending for next year. I am sure that that will be widely welcomed.

Has the Minister's noble Friend had any discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer with a view to introducing tax concessions for private industry and commerce that funds the arts?

There have been discussions within and between Departments on the Select Committee's recommendations, but we have not yet produced our final response to it.

When can we expect that response to the Select Committee's report? Will the Minister bear in mind that the Select Committee made several recommendations and that it underlined two facts? First, the arts have always been subsidised, whether by a German prince or, as in Britain now, by the state. Secondly, the arts are responsible for bringing vast sums of money to Britain via tourism.

The Government will respond to the Select Committee's report in a small number of months. Arts charities already benefit from relatively generous arrangements. However, I do not wish in any way to pre-empt my noble Friend's answer to the Select Committee.

With regard to the abolition of the metropolitan counties, is the Minister really convinced that the £11 million can be made up by private or district funding?

We are consulting on these matters. Taking into account the money that will be moved from the metropolitan counties to the districts and boroughs in grant-related expenditure assessments, there is no reason why arts organisations that are well based in their communities should not win support.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts, what reasons the Greek Government have given to Her Majesty's Government in support of their request that the Elgin marbles should be handed over to them without payment; and what has been Her Majesty's Government's reply.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts, if he will make a statement on the request by the Greek Government for the return of the Elgin marbles.

A formal request for the return of the Elgin marbles was made by the Greek ambassador on 12 October. It will, of course, receive careful consideration. As my noble Friend said in Parliament recently, the Government are aware of no general wish to change the existing powers of the British museum's trustees, and do not propose to seek authority to do so.

Will my hon. Friend and the Government remind the Greek Government that—no Elgin, no marbles, no British museum no marbles? Will he also remind them that the present level of sulphur dioxide in the Athenian atmosphere is as destructive of what remains of the Parthenon as was the Venetian gunfire, the Turkish gunpowder, and the plunderers and marauders—the Greek people themselves—on the remains of the Parthenon in the past?

I can only add one group to my hon. Friend's conprehensive list of those who have damaged the Parthenon—perhaps the worst of all were those who converted it into a church in 450 AD. As I understand it, the Greek Government have not proposed replacing the marbles on the Parthenon if they were to be returned. They would have to be kept in a museum in Athens.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the emotion that is being shown demonstrates that, in more ways than one, the Greeks have lost their marbles? Does he agree that it would be more helpful if the Greek Government appreciated the realistic and legal approach that Lord Elgin adopted towards these valuable marbles?

The Government will, of course, give the Greek Government's request serious consideration.

Does the Minister agree that the supplementary questions that have been asked by Conservative Members merely add insult to the injuries that have been inflicted on us all? Is he able to recall that the circumstances and the manner in which the so-called Elgin marbles were taken from Greece were bitterly denounced at the time by most leading English people, headed by Lord Byron? Is he further aware that Lord Byron pronounced a terrible curse on those who were engaged in the transaction? Will the Minister undertake to ensure that the Government will seriously examine the proposition that has been made by a friendly, democratic country?

Lord Byron may have been against it, but the right hon. Gentleman doubtless knows that a Select Committee which looked into the matter believed that the marbles had been acquired legally. What my hon. Friends say is doubted by few—if the marbles had not been taken away they would have been more seriously damaged.

Will my hon. Friend repudiate the suggestion of the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot) that injuries were inflicted, when the fact is that Britain saved the marbles after many years of neglect, decay and dilapidation? Does he agree that they were deteriorating under many centuries of Greek rule as well as under Turkish rule?

I do not think that there is any disagreement between the British Government and the Greek Government about the danger that the marbles were in at that time.

To take this matter seriously, does the Minister not consider that it might be time to accept that there is an argument in Third world countries and others that a limited range of objects should be returned? Is it not likely that if we in the West do not draw up a limited range of objects for restitution, we shall eventually face commercial and economic pressures to do so when dealing with other matters?

The hon. Gentleman is right. This matter raises wide and general issues. That is why we must consider carefully the implications for the British museum and other great international collections.

From which Government does my hon. Friend think a similar request might be made in respect of the horses of St. Mark's square, Venice?

A large number of Governments, including the Egyptian and Turkish, might have rival claims in that case.

Is it not a historical fact that Lord Elgin used his position as British ambassador to get his hands on the Parthenon marbles, without the consent of the people of Greece, and that he then proceeded to sell them to the British Government for £35,000? Will the Government now, belatedly, do the decent thing and send the marbles back to Greece so that they can be exhibited in their homeland? Should the Government not make reparation for an act of piracy by Lord Elgin, which even Byron described as plundering the Parthenon to decorate a villa in Scotland?

It was not described as plunder by the Select Committee which looked into the matter, nor have I ever heard any serious criticism of the way in which the British museum displays the marbles.