asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many local authorities have frozen payments on home improvement: and how many grant applications are at present outstanding with these local authorities.

No local authority, to my knowledge, has frozen grant payments. As at 6 December, 26 local authorities had suspended approvals of discretionary grants. The total number of applications outstanding in Wales is about 90,000. It is not possible to break this figure down to individual authorities, although the Welsh Office is taking steps to collect this information in future.

Is the Under-Secretary of State aware that 90,000 applicants now—and yet more by 31 March —will be left knowing that there is no hope of making home improvements and that their homes will be blighted? Instead of giving us pat answers, will the Minister hold a summit meeting with Welsh local authorities to arrange the financing of that enormous backlog, so that people can improve their homes, just as the Minister and the Government have encouraged them to do.?

As ever, the hon. Gentleman is mistaken. He must be aware of the special arrangements that we have made for this year. We have told local authorities that any spending on renovation grants above 50 per cent. of their allocation will be met by the Government.

I appreciate what my hon. Friend has said, but will he bear in mind that Wales has a significantly higher proportion of owner-occupiers than the United Kingdom in general and that many of those owners have very limited means? Will he also bear in mind that the housing stock in Wales is older on average than that in the United Kingdom, and that the need for repair and renovation in the Principality is probably greater than that in most of the United Kingdom?

My hon. Friend's description of owner-occupation and of the housing stock in Wales is right. Because of the conditions revealed by the house condition survey, and for other reasons, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced the 90 per cent. grant, which will remain available after 31 March 1984 in cases of hardship. We welcome the enormous number of applications for grants, which will be reflected in an improvement in the house condition survey.

Does the Minister accept that there has been a saga of monumental blunders on the part of the Welsh Office in failing to plan the cash flow for such grants? Is it not unrealistic to end the right to apply for grants on 31 March and on the same day to end the money that is available? The hon. Gentleman and the Government know perfectly well that applicants have 12 months in which to take up the grant. Should there not therefore be a 12-month take-up period after the deadline for applications?

I hope that there has never been any question in anyone's mind of extending the period during which applications can be made beyond 31 March 1984. The hon. Gentleman is well aware that all that has to happen is that the application must be made by 31 March. It does not necessarily have to be processed, approved or paid for. We have had great success with the policy, as an enormous number of applications have been made. Indeed, the policy is just as successful as our council house sales policy.

Is my hon. Friend aware that in November 1982 one of the largest housing authorities in Wales was urged by some of its members to redeploy existing staff or to take on additional staff to take maximum advantage of the special short-term home improvement scheme? Is he aware that if the authority had accepted that advice many of the current 1,000 applications would have been processed and paid by now?

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have made special arrangements to meet the financial costs this year, and the sky was the limit last year. This year an extra £50 million has been made available to local authorities.

May home owners in Wales have an assurance that the Government have no plans to abandon the home improvement scheme in 1984–85?

We have always made it clear that the 90 per cent. grant was for a limited period. Although the period for applying for a grant comes to an end on 31 March next year, 75 per cent. improvement grants will continue to be available. I stress that anyone who applies by 31 March next year for the higher rate of grant will get it.

The Minister claims success, but why are the local authorities angry and bitter'' Does he agree that poorer occupiers of older homes will suffer most as their houses progress towards massive dilapidation?

That is not true. The grant at the higher rate is to help poorer householders, and they are taking advantage of it. The local authorities have no cause whatsoever to be angry with anyone except themselves because they have failed to take advantage of the opportunities given to them by the Government.

Order. I have allowed a good run on this question, which relates to an important matter in Wales, but I ask for shorter supplementary questions and shorter answers.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

No. I shall take the hon. Gentleman's point of order later.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received concerning the Government's proposal to increase the charges for dental treatment; and if he will make a statement.

My right hon. Friend has received seven letters about dental charges in recent weeks, including three from the hon. Gentleman. The Government are currently considering dental charges and will make a statement in due course.

Is the Minister aware of the concern expressed by the profession and health authorities that, as a result of the proposed charges, the considerable sums being spent on dental education will be wasted? Does he agree that the route to good health is good dental health? Is that not the way to an economic Health Service?

I remind the hon. Gentleman that dental charges were first introduced by a Labour Government in May 1951.

We are talking about now.

Perhaps that is why the hon. Gentleman, like me, should put his money where his mouth is. The popularly held belief is that dental charges have a deterrent effect. That may be so in the short term, but there is no firm evidence that they have a significant effect in the long term.

Does my hon. Friend recognise that in recent years dental charges have risen markedly more than other National Health Service charges? In view of the greater political difficulty of increasing charges for other health services, will my hon. Friend look at the matter again since it appears that dental charges have risen far too much?

I advise my hon. Friend to await the forthcoming statement.

rose—

Order. I think that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) wishes to give notice that he wants to raise the issue contained in question No. 1 on the Adjournment. Is that right?

Yes, Mr. Speaker.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people were employed in Wales in June 1979 and the latest available date; and how many were employed in manufacturing industry on those dates.

In addition to those who are self-employed, there were 1,029,000 employees in employment in June 1979 and 883,000 in June 1983. The figures for manufacturing industry were 311,000 and 208,000, respectively.

Does the Secretary of State realise that there has been a massive loss of jobs in Wales since the Government came to office? We welcome the possibility of the Nissan plant coming to Wales in the near future, whether it be to north or to south Wales. Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that to replace only 100,000 jobs —he spoke about 200,000 jobs—we would need 20 Nissan plants with 5,000 workers at each plant? We would need that just to replace the number of jobs that have been lost under this Government?

The hon. Gentleman should realise that we are talking not about a loss of jobs but about a considerable transfer and switch in the nature of the economy, with a growth of jobs in self-employment and an increase in the numbers employed in the service sector. In the manufacturing sector, the number of jobs expected from offers of selective financial assistance to new factory projects financed by the Government since May 1979 is more than 50,000. Many jobs are coming, even in the manufacturing sector.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the success of the Government's policy in freeing manufacturing companies from the state sector has resulted in companies such as Amersham International in my constituency recently announcing 200 new jobs in Cardiff?

It is true that some successful companies in Wales are expanding their operations. Another is AB Electronics. I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that WlNvest is today announcing four new projects for Cardiff and Tredegar, promising 300 new jobs. I discussed several of these projects during my recent tour of the United States.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the community programme cutbacks mean losses of 64 jobs in Ogmore in one scheme alone, 800 jobs in mid-Glamorgan and thousands of jobs in Wales? Does he appreciate that this will increase unemployment in Wales? Is it not possible for more funding to be made available to the Manpower Services Commission to carry out some of the schemes forecast for 1984?

As the Manpower Services Commission for Wales confirmed to me on Friday, that is really a complete misuse of language. What the hon. Gentleman calls "cutbacks" are the result of the number of applications having exceeded our original estimate. A larger number of community service schemes have been allocated to Wales than we would have expected from the original allocation to the United Kingdom as a whole, and we have now come up against the spending limits. It is true that a number of schemes are having to be postponed until the next financial year, when they can be considered again. When one comes up against a cash limit because demand has exceeded the original expectation, it is completely wrong to call that a cutback.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there has in fact been considerable success in attracting new jobs and new industries to the region? From the questions that one hears from Labour Members from time to time, one wonders whether that is realised or recognised.

I have already referred to WlNvest. During the first eight months of its operations it has handled 161 company visits to Wales. Allocations to WDA factories this year are well up on last year's all-time record figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether in the light of recent squatting incidents in mid-Wales, he will consider changes in (a) the law of trespass, and (b) the law relating to common land.

The recent announcement by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary of the preparation of proposals for a new criminal offence relating to trespass on residential premises in England and Wales represents the Government's view on the extent of the changes now needed in the law of trespass to deal with intrusions into people's homes. There are no present plans for further legislation on the question of trespass generally.

The making of trespass on residential property a criminal offence is helpful and overdue, but does my hon. Friend agree that squatting also occurs outdoors — for example, near the Brecon Beacons mountain centre at Mynydd Illtyd? Is there not a need for a new legal category of public nuisance to prevent squatting on non-residential property, whether it be private or common land?

As my hon. Friend and the House will be aware, we are dealing with a complicated area of the law. If my hon. Friend will give me details of the changes that he has in mind, I shall consider them and consult my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

Is the Minister aware that some of us regard parts of north-east Dyfed as being in mid-Wales? Can he not strengthen the power of local authority planning and environmental health departments and, at times, even of the police, to prevent the increasing instances of great discord that hippies and such people cause in our community by squatting on land that they obviously do not own?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is aware that there are problems of enforcement in that area of the law. I should be grateful if he would send me any constructive suggestions that he may have to deal with that difficult section of the law.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what factors he is taking into account in fixing the local authority housing investment programme allocations for 1984–85.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what will be the total allocation of capital finance to Welsh local authorities for housing purposes for the year 1984–85.

Local authorities were informed earlier this month that their allocations for 1984–85 would not be less than 80 per cent. of this year's allocation; that is about £111 million. My right hon. Friend told the consultative council last week that further sums would be available, and he will be announcing the actual allocations before the House rises for the Christmas recess. In deciding them, the factors he is taking into account include the rate at which authorities are achieving council house sales as well as their likely expenditure in 1983–84, following the request that expenditure should be contained to the level committed by 2 December.

Did not the Minister say some three weeks ago that the priority local authorities gave to new build was entirely a matter for them? If so, will he give local authorities in Wales permission to build new council houses to satisfy the long and ever-increasing waiting lists in the Principality?

It is very much a matter for local authorities to decide their priorities. During the past six years some £299 million has been spent on new build, £134 million on repairs to council stock and only £110 million on renovation grants.

Does the Minister agree that when he stands at the Dispatch Box and makes such a statement, he is really announcing a further 20 per cent. cut in housing expenditure in Wales? Does he realise that that cut, which is in addition to the 50 per cent. reduction in housing expenditure from 1979 to date, is presenting local authorities in Wales with a crisis? In my local authority area of Rhymney Valley, more than 2,000 people are on the waiting list, but only 36 houses will be built next year. Does the Minister think that he should be proud of that record?

I have made no announcement today about a 20 per cent. cut for next year. In fact, I have just told the House that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said that there will be further moneys available in addition to the 80 per cent. of this year's allocation.

Does my hon. Friend agree that if local authorities had been a little keener to co-operate with Government policy during the past few years, we might not today be facing the sort of crisis that we are supposed to be facing?

I do not think that we are in a crisis. The position that we face is similar to that which we faced when we were urging local authorities to sell council houses. It took them a long time to reconcile themselves to that. Council house sales have now proved extremely popular and are a source of considerable additional finance to local authorities for purposes such as renovation grants.

Is the Minister aware that the tough curbs imposed on public housing investment the autumn statement will have a serious effect on capital expenditure in Wales well beyond the 1984–85 financial year? While he is discussing housing matters with the local authorities, will he look into the problem of housing benefit, bearing in mind that it has been estimated that more than 270,000 pensioners in the United Kingdom will lose their housing benefit completely? How many will lose it in Wales?

The question is not about housing benefit, but about housing investment programmes. The autumn statement is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when the planned new paediatric/obstetric unit at Singleton hospital, Swansea will be completed.

West Glamorgan health authority is planning on the basis that the new unit will be completed during 1988–89.

May we have an assurance that the new system of capital expenditure allocations to health authorities in Wales will in no way delay the implementation of the new unit at Singleton hospital?

I think that I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress he expects in measures for the reduction of unemployment in Wales during the coming year.

I never make forecasts of that kind, but the Government will continue a wide range of measures to encourage economic development and so reduce unemployment throughout Wales.

Will the right hon. Gentleman see the Prime Minister before Christmas and persuade her to drop her monetarist policies and change course, so that unemployment in Wales next year may be reduced by 50,000?

I have no intention of asking my right hon. Friend to do anything of the kind, particularly at a time when inflation is at its lowest level for many years, when economic growth is well established and when the unemployment figures have fallen for several consecutive months in Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to improve the motorway access into Wales.

I work in close co-operation with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to ensure the best possible motorway access into Wales.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Severn bridge on the M4 is the only stretch of motorway in the United Kingdom on which tolls are collected? Does he appreciate that last Friday night there was a three-hour wait to cross the bridge and that there was not much evidence of the Welsh "croeso" on that occasion? Is he aware that this is a terrible way to treat the people of Wales?

Hon. Members will agree that the important matter at present is not tolls, which have operated under successive Governments, but to ensure the security of this vital crossing into Wales. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has told the House that he intends to make a very early statement about the matter. I am in close touch with the Department of Transport on the subject.

Would some improvement in the flow of traffic result if the tolls for traffic leaving Wales were collected on the Welsh side and the tolls for traffic entering Wales were collected on the other side?

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has announced that he is taking a close new look at all measures for operating the bridge to see whether we can eliminate any unnecesary delay. That is certainly one suggestion that is being considered, and we shall report to the House in due course.

Is the right hon. Gentleman utterly determined to obtain a second crossing of the Severn?

I am utterly determined to maintain this vital entry into Wales, which is fundamental to the economy of south Wales. My right hon. Friend has made it clear that the Government recognise the vital importance of the Severn crossing. We are making an assessement about the strengthening of the bridge, which, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, will be required for many years. Alongside that we are also considering the question of a second crossing. The two matters must be taken together. My right hon. Friend hopes to make an early statement to the House on both matters.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what amount, and by what percentage, unemployment has risen in Wales. Clwyd and the Deeside travel-to-work area.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave him on 31 October, but would add that since September 1983 the number of unemployed claimants in Wales, Clwyd and the Shotton travel-to-work area has, in fact, gone down.

The unemployment rate in north-east Wales is very high and clearly makes the arrival of the deputation from Clwyd county council tomorrow of the highest importance. Does the right hon. Gentleman understand our deep anxiety about the delay in launch aid for the Airbus A320, which would underpin 2,000 local jobs? Bearing in mind the availability of excellent sites throughout Wales, what can he tell the House about the Nissan project?

The Government are giving the closest consideration to the representations that have been made about the A320 Airbus project and have been analysing all the information that has been provided recently by companies. There is no fresh information about the Nissan project. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome a number of new investments that are occurring in northeast Wales, not least the recent decision of the Cooperative Wholesale Society Ltd. to locate its new multimillion pound factory in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, which will provide at least 150 new jobs.

Has my right hon. Friend seen the information that was released at the weekend by the Clwyd county council to the effect that one quarter of manufacturing jobs in the country are in firms that have their headquarters outside the United Kingdom? In view of that, will it be useful to obtain from the Labour party a final renunciation of its proposal to withdraw from the EEC in view of the sensitivity of those jobs to such a threat?

During my recent visit to the United States I discussed the investment projects to be conducted by a number of United States companies which were considering setting up projects in Clwyd. They were all doing so on the ground that this would be a base for operating in the European Community as a whole.

Is the Minister aware that recently one of my constituents wrote to me asking how he could get a job, but, before I received the letter, the Wrexham Conservative association stepped in and managed to find him one? Will the right hon. Gentleman advise and help the Wrexham Conservative association to find jobs for the other 9,999 people in the Wrexham area who also want jobs?

I am glad that the people have recognised that it is more sensible to go to the Conservative association than to their Member of Parliament. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will remember that in any single month between 15,000 and 30,000 people go on and off the register of unemployment in Wales. There is a rapid turnover of jobs. That underlies the unemployment statistics, which we all regret are still too high.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from the Gwynedd area health authority concerning his financial allocation to that authority for 1984–85; and if he will discuss with the area health authority the consequences of this allocation on the maintenance and development of health care.

The Department has recently received a letter from the chairman of Gwynedd health authority regarding resource planning assumptions for the 10 years from 1984–85, and I shall let the hon. Member have a copy of the reply. My right hon. Friend has not yet decided the allocations to individual health authorities for 1984–85.

Will the Minister confirm that that reply contains a refusal to implement the cuts being demanded by the Welsh Office? Is he aware that, on the basis of the notional combined capital and revenue allocations issued by the Welsh Office to the Gwynedd area health authority, that authority will be facing a recurring deficiency of £1·5 million a year and that that would mean either the mothballing of every capital development for 10 years, including hospitals in Llandudno, northern Anglesey, Dwyfor, north Merioneth and the Caernarvon area or, alternatively, mothballing provisions for geriatric and psychiatric facilities in the new district hospital at Bangor? In those circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether those notional figures are definite for the next two years or whether they will be withdrawn by the Welsh Office?

The hon. Gentleman is unnecessarily spreading alarm and despondency. The health authorities appear to have misinterpreted the draft guidance and the planning assumptions that we gave them. It is wrong to talk about a cut. Reports of the health authorities meeting of 28 November in the press about a £1·4 million cut are a miscalculation, based on draft guidance containing notional figures for planning purposes. The guidance and the figures are under review. The hon. Gentleman should attach no more importance to the 0·5 per cent. gross figure assumption that we have given the authorities than that it is a planning assumption.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new factory units, and how many square feet of factory space, have been built by the Welsh Development Agency since its inception.

Between January 1976 and November 1983 the Welsh Development Agency completed 1,159 advance factory units, 12 bespoke factory units and 74 factory extensions totalling in all more than 8·8 million sq ft.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this additional factory capacity will facilitate a substantial expansion in Wales in future?

That is true, especially as in the first 11 months of this year the WDA has allocated over 280 factories and 1·4 million sq ft of floor space to firms that are forecasting over 5,300 jobs. That is already more than the total for last year.

While we welcome the additional factory space provided by the Welsh Development Agency, which was created by the previous Labour Government and opposed by the then Tory Opposition, may I ask how much factory space has been made available to let since the Government took office because of closures, liquidations and redundancies?

Since May 1979 the WDA has allocated about 900 units and 7·1 million sq ft at a time when 220 units and 4·4 million sq ft, often in the form of older factories, have closed down. Substantially more new factories have been allocated and substantially more new factory space has been made available than is involved in the closures that have taken place. I am glad to inform the House that the WDA's expenditure on the programme has been £280 million, of which £220 million has been expended under the present Government.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the Health Service resources for Wales planned for the period 1983–84 to 1993–94, indicating reductions or increases.

In 1983–84 expenditure on the National Health Service in Wales is expected to be at the record high of £790 million, of which almost £543 million is the expected revenue spending of district health authorities. Purely for planning purposes, we have issued a resource assumption for hospital and community health services that there will be 0·5 per cent. per annum growth in the years 1984–85 to 1993–94. My right hon. Friend expects shortly to announce the actual allocations for the National Health Service in Wales in 1984–85.

Does the Minister appreciate that a 1·5 per cent. increase in spending is required if we are only to stand still? Area health authorities will find it impossible, with this allocation, to reduce waiting lists, to cure patients suffering from kidney disorders and to ensure that the Health Service operates at the level it stood in 1979 when the Conservatives took over. We want greater investment and wish to ensure that the second phase of development of new hospitals, such as the Bridgend project, is carried out. It is clear that it will not be carried out within the allocation that the Minister has announced.

The hon. Gentleman is speaking in complete ignorance of what the Government are proposing to allocate next year. He seems not to appreciate—this is true, of the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) —that all we have done is to give authorities a planning assumption of 0·5 per cent. The allocation will be made in due course. I counsel the hon. Gentleman to consider the Government's honourable record of spending on the Health Service since 1979.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received relating to a new Severn river crossing.

I have received representations on this matter from private individuals, local authorities and from a number of firms and representatives of the business community in south Wales.

There will be a widespread welcome for my right hon. Friend's announcement that a statement is to be made on the matter shortly. We hope that the statement will be made before Christmas. Since we all believe it to be inevitable that the second crossing will eventually be announced, the sooner the announcement is made, the better.

My right hon. Friend and I are considering the matter closely and with the greatest urgency. Indeed, I met him and his officials in my office at the end of last week. It is more likely, however, that the statement will be made early in the new year than before the Christmas recess.

In view of the urgent need in Wales for a second crossing over the Severn, would it not be prudent for the Welsh Office to develop the other entry into Wales —the A465?

It is important to develop all the possible entries into Wales. I welcome the important motorway link with Telford, which will have profound importance for mid-Wales and north Wales. There is also a great deal of work in progress on the A40 and the links with mid-Wales, which will help us to avoid sending traffic down the southern corridor which then has to turn north to reach mid-Wales.

Would not a second crossing give a massive boost to the steel, cement and construction industries in south Wales? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in Cwmbran, on 9 January, Mr. Lloyd Turnbull is to chair a meeting about a second crossing? Will the right hon. Gentleman or one of his Ministers attend that meeting?

I shall consider whether the Welsh Office should be represented at that meeting. However, I do not need to be told about the vital importance of that road link. I have spoken about it on many occasions, and I understand it as well as any hon. Member or anyone in Wales. The Government are determined to ensure that the crossing is as adequate as possible.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many inquiries were made of small firms information centres in Wales in 1980, 1981 and 1982.

My Department has one small firms centre which provides advice and information to small firms throughout Wales. The centre dealt with 7,053 inquiries in 1980, 10,604 in 1981 and 14,929 in 1982.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that these figures show the success of the Government's policy in assisting small firms? In that context, does he welcome the establishment of such enterprise agencies as the Newport enterprise agency and the contribution being made by industry to help those agencies?

It is encouraging that the number of inquiries to the small firms centre should have doubled between 1980 and 1982, and that the number has been increasing since. I also confirm that the enterprise agencies are making a valuable contribution, which I discussed on Friday with the Welsh board of the Manpower Services Commission. We shall seek to encourage these agencies and welcome the contributions being made to them by industry wherever they are set up.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that a number of small building firms in Newport are finding that their improvement grant jobs are being stopped when they are half completed because of the Government's new restrictions? This is when the materials are virtually rotting in the building yards and building workers are standing idly in the dole queues. Surely those are the economics of the madhouse.

Newport council decided, unlike most other district authorities in Wales, not to give improvement grants the highest priority and not to use the maximum quantity of resources available for improvement grants, but to use capital resources for other projects which, presumably, it considered had higher priority. That fact must also be taken into account.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although the number of inquiries about small firms is encouraging, the loan guarantee scheme has played an enormous and valuable part in the formation of new small businesses? Will he assure the House that he will do everything in his power to support its continuance and improvement?

The loan guarantee scheme has made a notable contribution since being amended. I welcome that. Perhaps the greatest service that we can now render is to improve the supply of information through professional bodies and in other ways so that businesses are fully aware of what can be done through that scheme.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many ecclesiastical buildings for which the commissioners are responsible of formerly grade A classification have been demolished in the past 10 years; and what percentage of the total number this figure represents.

Between 1 April 1969, when the pastoral measure came into effect, and 30 November 1983, the commissioners have been responsible for deciding the future of 83 grade A listed redundant churches. Only one of these buildings has been demolished. A further 23 have been appropriated to suitable new uses and the balance of 59 have been vested in the redundant churches fund for care and maintenance.

Many people will find my hon. Friend's reply somewhat surprising, but immensely reassuring. Presumably the church that has been demolished is Holy Trinity church, Rugby. I understand that there are about 2,250 grade A churches in England alone. Would my hon. Friend carry to the Church Commissioners the congratulations of all who care for our ecclesiastical architectural heritage, and our thanks for their success in resisting the demolition of our architecture?

I am overwhelmed, but much obliged to my hon. Friend. This treatment is somewhat different from that to which I am accustomed. The pastoral measure, as recently amended, contains very strict safeguards. That is why, for example, the 1983 edition of The English Heritage Monitor, which takes a neutral stance, is able to comment that

"a listed building is over three times more likely to be demolished than a listed church."

We have an incredible heritage of grade A listed churches and other old churches. Does it not, therefore, behove the Church Commissioners —who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman) said, are already doing a wonderful job —to press the Government even more strongly to ensure that the funds required to maintain that heritage are forthcoming?

I take the point, but it would be churlish of me not to acknowledge publicly the considerable advance that has been made in the partnership between Church and state for the help of churches in use. Of course, I refer to all churches in use and not just those of the Church of England.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many currently serving archbishops, diocesan bishops and suffragan bishops are on the payroll of the Church Commissioners; and how this compares with 30, 20, 15, 10 and five years ago, respectively.

As the answer contains a number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the Official Report.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he feel that those whom he represents would be spending money well if they were to pay for an archbishop of London and one or two new diocesan bishops to reflect the population movement? Could he explain why they are paying so many more suffragan bishops than before, and what their functions are? Can my hon. Friend imagine what Mrs. Proudie, the wife of the Bishop of Barchester, would have said if a suffragan bishop had been appointed to Barchester?

I shall not speculate about Mrs. Proudie or an archbishop of London. That is not the responsibility of the Church Commissioners. There is now an effective sieve through which any new proposals must go by way of a diocese commission of which, by chance, I happen to be the chairman. My hon. Friend can feel that there is now a much closer scrutiny than there was, perhaps, in the past.

Have the Church Commissioners put their minds to what, in their opinion, is the optimum size for a modern diocese and how many parish clergy it is reasonable, under modern conditions, for a bishop to guide, inspire and occasionally, control?

There will be many widely differing views as to what the perfect number should be. As my hon. Friend will be aware, these will reflect geographical factors. As he will also be aware, there is a system for equating the number of clergy in a diocese under the Sheffield scheme, which goes some way, but only some, towards meeting my hon. Friend's point.

Is there any desirable limit to the expansion referred to in the hon. Gentleman's reply in view of the feeling, among a growing proportion of the laity of the Church of England, that there is a tendency for the encroachment of the authority of the biships as against other sources of authority within the Church?

That is one of the many considerations which I know are in the mind of, for example, the General Synod, which has now to approve any proposal by a diocesan bishop for an additional suffragan.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Government are yet in a position to make a statement on the Priestley report into the financial affairs of the Royal Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company.

My noble Friend hopes to be able to make a statement before the Christmas recess.

Can my hon. Friend give any idea whether the Government accept the proposal of the Priestley committee that funding of the Royal Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company should be put on a three-year basis instead of an annual one? If they accept that, will they apply the same reasoning to the entire funding of the Arts Council?

I shall draw my noble Friend's attention to what my hon. Friend has said. My hon. Friend will be aware of the difficulties associated with giving three-year guarantees of expenditure in present circumstances.

Will there be a financial covenant for the Scottish Opera in the Minister's statement?

I must leave it to my noble Friend to make his statement in due course.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will discuss the effects of cuts on the arts with the Arts Council before announcing the next annual Government grant.

My noble Friend is in regular touch with the chairman of the Arts Council on grant requirements and other matters.

Will the Minister confirm that the Arts Council has asked for a 20 per cent. increase in funding, the majority of which would be used to clear outstanding deficits to its clients? What is the amount of those deficits?

I shall have to write to the hon. Gentleman with regard to the second part of his question. I can confirm that the Arts Council believes that it needs more money than can be given to it in present circumstances. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that the central component of the arts budget shows a small but welcome increase in real terms for next year.

Does the Minister agree that one of the problems associated with funding the arts is that his noble Friend, while being responsible for the arts, also represents the Treasury in another place and is responsible for Civil Service personnel and management? Does he further agree that that schizophrenic role cannot give any assurance to the Arts Council that it will be properly funded? Is the Minister aware that that view is now shared by 500 people, who have been prompted to form the first national lobby for the arts, that they met yesterday and that they made it quite clear that they believe the Government are doing a bad job?

My noble Friend's relative success with regard to next year's arts budget might lead us to believe that his position in relation to the Treasury has been used to the benefit of the arts. With regard to the conclusions of yesterday's lobby, I was interested in what the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) said on the radio this morning. He perfectly fairly pointed out that it is necessary for the arts to put its case strongly under all Governments.

Why, when we have to cut essential services, is it considered essential to support arts which are unpopular with the great body of people who find that more essential services have been cut? Will my hon. Friend bear in mind the fact that many of the people who support minority arts are able to pay the full economic price for their tickets whereas those who need essential services are not able to pay the full price for them?

The state makes quite a small contribution to funding the arts as compared with what is paid by individuals. Many hon. Members would regret it if the state did not play its proper role in these matters.

Is the Minister aware that the Grand theatre, Wolverhampton is being renovated at considerable cost and with local effort? Is he aware that it is now as beautiful as the Old Vic, although it is a smaller house? Will he ask his noble Friend to bear in mind, when he considers next year's grants for the Arts Council, the fact that it is necessary to support local theatres which are being put into good condition as a result of local efforts, so that they can continue to serve the public?

I shall report that concern to my noble Friend. I recently saw the list of theatres in different towns in the provinces that have been supported by the Arts Council over the years. It is an impressive list.

With reference to the question asked by my hon. Friend for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Beaumont-Dark), when we are faced with these difficult choices, might it not be salutary if we recalled the example of some of the continental countries after the bombing of the last war, which, faced with great problems of reconstruction and housing, gave priority to the arts?

I personally believe that in terms of the maintenance of a civilised society there is a proper role for the state to play in subsidising the arts.

Has the Minister noted that the chairman of the Arts Council, Sir William Rees-Mogg, hardly noted for his support of profligate public spending, was reported in The Times of 24 November as saying:

"Many of the organisations supported by the council currently face very serious problems in maintaining their existence in the present restricted financial climate."

It is wrong now, as it was in the past, and as it will be in the future, to guarantee that every organisation supported by the Arts Council will survive or, in certain circumstances, should survive. However, there has been a real terms increase for next year in the Government component of the arts budget, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman welcomes, as I do.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he has yet received the response of the Arts Council to the consultation paper on the future funding of the arts after the abolition of the Greater London council and the metropolitan county councils.

No, Sir.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Will he confirm that consideration will be given to an arts and heritage council to co-ordinate the funding and administration of the arts in London?

I shall draw my hon. Friend's suggestion to the attention of my noble Friend and of the Secretary of State for the Environment.

How many representations has the Minister's noble Friend received on those proposals, and has any single one been in support of the proposals?

I shall have to write to the hon. Gentleman on both those points, but I confirm the implication of what he said, that most of the representations have been in favour of the status quo.

Although many present Greater London council grants are well directed, will my hon. Friend note that some of those grants are directed in weird directions that are unacceptable to the ratepayers of London?

It would be naive not to agree that, to some extent, there is a widening of sponsorship in a highly politicised direction which, perhaps, is not comparable with what has gone on before.

Is the Minister aware that if the South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire county councils are abolished, that will place in jeopardy Opera North, the Leeds Playhouse and the Sheffield Crucible theatre, which are at present funded at the rate of over £200,000 a year? How do the Government propose to save those enterprises in the event of abolition?

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, Opera North is on the list in the consultation document issued by my noble Friend, and is one of the theatres that will receive Government support. The consultation period for that document is still open. The right hon. Gentleman can make representations to my noble Friend that other theatres should be added to the list. However, it remains essential for the districts that will be the successor authorities to play their part in the support of arts organisations.

Does the Minister still believe that the £11 million deficit will be made up by the districts, although the evidence from the districts since he last put forward that opinion is that they are already doing what they can and do not feel able to support functions that are clearly regional in their implications and not just local?

I remain of the opinion that the districts and, in London, the boroughs can play a significant part in maintaining those organisations for which there is real public demand. The consultation period remains open for additions to the national list.

Regarding the arm's length principle for the future funding of the arts through local authorities and, primarily, through the Arts Council, has the Minister had drawn to his attention the dangerous implications of the introduction of earmarked moneys, which removes the responsibility for decisions from those bodies?

Those issues were drawn to the attention of my noble Friend during the debate on the Priestley report. No one is in doubt about his opinions on that matter.