asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the average cost per job created under the urban programme in Wales in 1983–84.

The urban programme is not specifically aimed at job creation and no comprehensive figure is available. However, local authorities have estimated that some 2,700 jobs would be created or safeguarded by the new schemes costing £11·15 million introduced in 1983–84. Of course, these schemes could lead to many more jobs being created indirectly.

Does not that sum of £11 million translate into about £2,000 or £3,000 per potential job, and is not that figure encouraging when compared with the estimate by the Department of Trade and Industry of about £35,000 per job in assisted area schemes? Does not that show that there should be increased emphasis on future urban aid programmes?

I agree with my hon. Friend on that point. The urban programme and urban development grants are doing an extremely effective job.

Is there not a real likelihood that this year local authorities will be unable to take up their full allocations of urban aid because of the constraints imposed by the Government on their expenditure? If the Secretary of State wishes to encourage the further involvement of local authorities in the urban aid programme, should he not consider exempting expenditure on the scheme's general administration and revenue contributions to specific programmes from overall expenditure limits imposed on them?

I cannot give an undertaking to do that. We have been informed by Welsh local authorities that schemes approved in 1983–84 involving £1·8 million did not proceed this year as a result of the voluntary moratorium on capital expenditure. Those schemes will now start in 1984–85, with the appropriate exenditure being included in the local authorities, urban programme capital allocation.

As more than 100,000 manufacturing jobs in Wales have been lost since the Conservative party took office, what positive steps do the Government intend to take? As well as urban aid, will they consider restoring regional assistance to those areas that have been denied it by the Government?

As the hon. Gentleman will know, a review of regional policy is going on. I cannot at this stage predict the outcome.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the number of selective financial assistance applications in Wales for 1981–82 and 1982–83.

There were 234 applications under section 7 of the Industrial Development Act in 1981–82 and 311 in the last financial year.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer, as I feel that it underlines the increasing level of investment activity in Wales. However, can my right hon. Friend give us any intimation of the level of applications for financial assistance in the current financial year?

There is a rising tide of applications. In the first nine months of the current financial year the number has been at a record level, with 270 applications promising to create about 13,000 jobs and to safeguard 8,000 jobs. The level of acceptances—which is perhaps the most immediate and important factor—is also rising steadily.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the figures that he gave to me in an answer shortly before Christmas showed that only 1 per cent. of industrial grants paid in Wales in the past two years went to the county of Gwynedd? What is the cause of that failure, and what is the right hon. Gentleman doing to redress the balance?

We deal with applications from industrial companies, and I respond to specific applications. It is not perhaps surprising that many of the applications—particularly in this phase of the recovery—should come from some of the main industrial areas that are particularly attractive to the new technologies. However, I assure the hon. Gentleman that an application from his area receives the same attention as an application from one of the principal industrial locations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will ensure that in the continuing European Economic Community negotiations the interests of Welsh milk producers are safeguarded.

We shall be seeking to safeguard the overall British interest, including that of Welsh milk producers, and will oppose any measures which discriminate against the United Kingdom.

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware of the critical state in which not only Welsh hill cow producers but Welsh hill sheep farmers have been left because of the suspension of grants following the failure to reach agreement by the Council of Ministers in Brussels?

It is an exaggeration to say that farmers have been left in a critical state. Normally, almost no grants are paid in January. The applications are being processed, and we normally expect grants to flow at an increasing level in February. I understand the great concern expressed by the agriculture unions and others at the unfortunate delay in agreeing that grants can be paid. We are urgently investigating the legal implications with the relevant authorities in Brussels. I hope that we shall soon reach a settlement on this important matter.

Is the Secretary of State aware that I have received two representations this morning on the question asked by the hon. Member for Clwyd, South-West (Mr. Harvey)? Some small farmers are being caused severe financial embarrassment by the freezing of grants? Will the Secretary of State take temporary steps to alleviate the financial hardship suffered as a result of the freezing of grants?

We pressed hard for roll-over provisions at the last meeting of Agriculture Ministers, and we shall do so again at the next meeting. In the meantime, we have sent officials to Brussels to try to reach agreement on the legal implications. As soon as the legal matters are settled, we shall. of course, try to meet the point made by the hon. Gentleman.

Will my right hon. Friend explore the possibilities of obtaining funds from Europe for the Welsh plant breeding station?

I note the suggestion, although that is not my direct ministerial responsibility. Some of the suggestions about the threat to the plant breeding station have been greatly exaggerated. There is a firm future for that institution. Its operations have just been extended by the acquisition of an upland farm in Powys and by work on the uplands.

As well as safeguarding the interests of Welsh milk producers, will the Secretary of State ensure that the interests of Welsh steel workers are safeguarded? Will he tell this organisation—

Order. That is well wide of the question.

I acknowledge the efforts being made to reach agreement, but will my right hon. Friend take account of the particular dependence upon milk production for their income by a large proportion of Welsh farmers?

Of course. My hon. Friend will understand that he need not tell me, the right hon. Member for Pembroke, about the importance of the milk sector. Nevertheless, there must be adjustments and restraints on prices if the Community's problems are to be resolved. One of our principal objectives is to ensure that any changes are on a non-discriminatrory basis and that Welsh producers are fairly treated in relation to producers in Europe as a whole.

May I remind the right hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Edwards) that there is a problem about the amount of milk imports allowed into the United Kingdom? If the Government are not prepared to do anything about it, I suggest that the Secretary of State should read the article in today's Daily Mirror about the amount of milk that is expected to come into the United Kingdom from Denmark, Ireland, Belgium and Germany. Is he aware that we have opened the flood gates to milk imports? Does he accept that that will affect milk producers and doorstep deliveries, with the loss of thousands of jobs? What does the Secretary of State propose to do to alter that situation?

That is a gross exaggeration of the position. So far the shipments of UHT milk have been small. We are insisting on the strictest safeguards on health grounds and limiting the number of ports through which shipments can be made. It is for consumers to decide whether they wish to buy their milk in supermarkets or to have it delivered to the doorstep. There is no evidence that they will make a substantial switch to UHT milk, which has clear disadvantages.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he is satisfied with the services for mentally ill persons discharged from mental health hospitals and units in Wales; and if he will make a statement.

The Welsh Office has consistently urged the health and local authorities which are responsible to develop joint strategies to enable long stay patients to leave hospital and receive more appropriate care in their own locations. We have provided record levels of joint finance and psychiatric reserve allocations this year and have designated mentally ill people as a priority group to benefit from the reinvestment of some £2·7 million of efficiency savings in hospital and community services in the coming financial year.

Will the Welsh Office investigate the growth of places in private homes for the mentally ill which are located only in Clwyd and Gwynedd? Will the hon. Gentleman ensure that residents within those homes are treated properly and that some of the cases recently exposed on the Welsh language media should be dealt with?

It is dangerous to exaggerate incidents based on one's knowledge of reports in the press. Only about 3 per cent. of those discharged go to local authority, voluntary or private residential care. As regards private residential care, the Health and Social Services and Social Security Adjudications Act 1983 should be helpful as it insists on registration and inspection of private homes.

Does my hon. Friend accept that this admirable policy must be supported by public opinion? There is a risk that public opinion could be alienated if stupid decisions are made, such as the giving of planning permission for the opening of a home for the mentally handicapped in a semi-detached house which has a fire escape that goes through the house next door in which there are young people who might be alarmed at such a position.

I agree that the public must be educated to accept that care in the community for the mentally ill and mentally handicapped, where appropriate, is the best form of care for them. As to their settlement in the community, I shall not comment on any specific planning permission that has been given since this matter could come up on appeal to my right hon. Friend.

The hon. Gentleman said that he is concerned about the welfare of the mantally ill and mentally handicapped. Is there not a need also to maintain local authority personal social services? Should we not avoid cuts in those services caused by the Government's constrictions on the rates? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need to develop community psychiatric nursing services to ensure effective after-care?

In fact, expenditure on personal social services is 7 per cent. more than would be needed to keep pace with inflation, compared with 1979.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will seek an urgent meeting with Clwyd health authority to discuss the future of Chatsworth house hospital, Prestatyn.

No, Sir. Clwyd health authority's proposals in respect of Chatsworth house form part of wider rationalisation proposals upon which the authority have undertaken public consultation. Should local agreement not be reached and the authority wish to proceed, the proposals will have to be submitted to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for his consideration, and it would not be appropriate to intervene at this stage.

As it is clear that local agreement will not be reached and that proposals will be submitted to the Secretary of State, will my hon. Friend bear in mind that, should Chatsworth house be closed, Prestatyn, the largest of the four towns in my constituency, will be the only one without any hospital facilities whatever? Is my hon. Friend aware that the proposed closure is supported by members of the Labour party, including the former election agent of the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones)? Does my hon. Friend agree that this matter exposes the hypocrisy of the Opposition's position on the National Health Service?

I hope that everyone who considers the authority's rationalisation proposals will take a sensible, non-political view and judge the proposals on their merits. The provision of a hospital for Prestatyn is a matter for the health authority. It has tentatively programmed a hospital for 1992, but detailed planning has not yet commenced.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales, pursuant to the reply to the hon. Member for Gower on 12 December, Official Report, c. 374, when the perinatal and infant mortality rates for each social class where babies were born into married households for each of the counties of Wales for the year 1981–82 will be available.

Within the next three months.

Does the Minister accept—a simple Yes will do—that the large and continuing gap in infant and perinatal mortality rates between socio-economic groups 1 and 5 are, in many counties in Wales. the direct result of the Government's stubborn refusal to adopt an anti-poverty strategy?

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman, who has misunderstood the position altogether. In 1982, the numbers of stillbirths, deaths in the first week and infant deaths were the lowest on record in Wales. Perinatal and infant mortality rates in Wales were below those for both England and Scotland. The figures have been reflected at county level. For example, in West Glamorgan—which includes the hon. Gentleman's constituency—infant mortality was cut by almost half between 1979 and 1982.

When does the Minister expect to have average figures for the whole of Wales, including the whole of the socio-economic range, on a par with the figures from that centre of excellence, the Nevill Hall hospital at Abergavenny, which are as good as any throughout Europe? Are there not tremendous discrepancies between the excellent figures in one part of Wales and the damning figures in other parts?

We accept that there is a difference in the incidence of those regrettable deaths in different parts of Wales. Indeed, that is the reason behind our perinatal initiative. We have appointed a Welsh Office medical officer and an expert midwife from the National Health Service to study and examine the causes of each death. We hope that their studies during the next two years will highlight the deficiencies.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many pupils were in secondary schools in Wales (a) in 1979 and (b) at the latest convenient date; and what were the respective pupil to teacher ratios on those dates.

In January 1979 there were 241,662 pupils in maintained secondary schools in Wales. The corresponding figure for January 1983 was 235,625. The pupil to teacher ratios were 16·8:1 and 16·5:1, respectively.

Are not those figures somewhat at variance with the exaggerated dismay that has been expressed about educational trends, including secondary schools, in Wales?

The pupil-teacher ratio figures are proving satisfactory, but they are only one of the yardsticks that are used to judge how well our education system is working.

Does the Minister accept that Wales has lost more than 400 school teachers during the past 12 months? Is he aware that in Mid Glamorgan there are 364 classes with a pupil-teacher ratio in excess of 31:1? Will the Minister give serious consideration to making special funds available to Mid Glamorgan to tackle that appalling problem?

I understand that the Mid Glamorgan county council is planning to reduce its teacher force in 1984–85 by about 180, of which 44 posts represent a response to anticipated falls in schools rolls. The pupil-teacher ratio in Mid Glamorgan secondary schools in September 1983 was 16·3: I compared with 17·5:1 a year earlier and 16·:1 in January 1979. It is for individual local authorities to decide how to allocate their resources, but there can be no question of relaxing the pressure to contain public expenditure.

Should not local authorities in Wales use the opportunity that is provided by falling rolls to diversify the curriculum and ensure that the so-called bottom 40 per cent. are provided for in schools in Wales rather than to reduce teacher numbers?

As the House will be aware, the Government's objective—my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science made an interesting speech recently on this topic—is to diversify and to improve standards and achievement generally. I am sure that my right hon. Friend's speech will be the subject of much consultation in future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representation he has received regarding the rate support grant for Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has had from local authorities in Wales concerning the level of rate support grants for 1984–85 in Wales.

Representations have been received from the Welsh Counties Committee, the Committee of Welsh District Councils, 22 individual local authorities in Wales and one other organisation.

Has the Secretary of State read the letter from the Association of District Councils in Wales, in which it argues that the settlement is unreasonable and grossly unfair to district councils as it will result in the loss of almost £10 million of block grant, or a 7 per cent. reduction compared with inflation of 5 per cent? Does the Minister agree that the Welsh settlement illustrates that central Government are completely unable to fix targets for district councils, although they will be making provision to do so in the Rates Bill?

Very few people are now repeating the exaggerated forecasts of likely rate increases that were made by the district councils when the settlement was first made. Provision for the current year is 3·8 per cent. more than was included in this year's budgets. Current provision is 4·8 per cent. in excess of this year's current expenditure provision. These are substantial increases. Local authorities will undoubtedly face some difficult decisions, but some of the language that is being used about them is greatly exaggerated.

If the concept of grant-related expenditure has any meaning, is it not ridiculous to penalise authorities that are spending below their GRE though above target?

Local authorities arrived at below-GRE spending provision because they believed they were meeting the requirements of their areas. The local authorities were agreed—I consulted them on this issue — that we should not adjust the target basis to take greater account of that factor this year. It was on their insistence that we did not alter the factors on the lines suggested by the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many representations he has received from local authorities in Gwent concerning the Government's proposals on rate capping; what reply he has sent; and if he will make a statement.

I have received representations from five local authorities in Gwent. In responding I made it clear that the Government are firmly committed to curbing the excessive spending of a small minority of local authorities by selective action, and that I trust that the reserve general power we are seeking will not need to be implemented.

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the solidly Conservative-controlled urban district council of Monmouth, which is represented by the Minister of State, Welsh Office, has described the measure as unnecessary and unjustified and as attacking the very fabric of local democracy? Bearing in mind that a vital principle is involved, are Welsh Office Ministers now considering their position, or are the perks too attractive for them to permit that to happen?

I hope that the measure will not be necessary in Wales. If Welsh local authorities continue to spend at reasonable levels, on the lines that they have adopted in the past, it will not be necessary to use the selective powers.

What representations has the Secretary of State received from ratepayers who have to bear the burden? Does he agree that at least equal consideration should be given to such representations about increases which have been out of all proportion and have done more than their fair share to cause job losses?

There is no doubt that the public and ratepayers generally have far less sympathy with the case advocated by local government representatives than one might gather from the views expressed by the Opposition.

If the Secretary of State believes that local authority budgeting in Wales has been and will continue to be reasonable, why does he seek the special powers in the rate-capping legislation?

Ratepayers are entitled to the assurance that protection is available to them. Moreover, I hope that the existence of such powers will encourage local authorities to pursue a sensible course so that we do not need to use the powers.

Will the Secretary of State accept my plea that Wales should be exempt from that draconian measure, which is an insult to local government leadership in Wales? Will he name one irresponsible local authority in Wales? Why must he take a legislative sledgehammer to strip Wales of its centuries-old freedoms?

The answer is no, Sir. If I am right in thinking that Welsh local authorities will budget sensibly and continue along the lines that they have followed so far, there need be no question of their suffering the penalties of which the hon. Gentleman complains. He is making a great song and dance about very little.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new jobs were created in Cardiff in the most recent 12 month period for which figures are available.

Comprehensive information is not available, particularly about the continuing increase in the number of jobs in tourism and the retail and service sector. However, for the period 1 October 1982 to 30 September 1983, projects for which offers of selective financial assistance have been accepted or which were allocated Government factories in the Cardiff travel-to-work area promise to provide 1,300 jobs. In addition, more jobs may be expected to arise in the manufacture and service sectors as a result of urban development grant.

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend and most appreciative of his reply. It is encouraging to know that unemployment in Cardiff is falling, as I dare say will continue to be the case in future years. I am most interested, as no doubt is the whole House, in the south Butetown redevelopment scheme. How quickly will my right hon. Friend be able to approve the scheme, how many jobs will be created when it gets under way and how many jobs will subsequently be created when the scheme is completed?

It is a matter of great satisfaction that the initiative that I asked Michael Roberts to prepare in the autumn of 1982, and which I announced to the House just under a year ago, has made such satisfactory progress and that a proposal is now coming forward from the local authorities. I shall deal with the application for UDG as quickly as I can and I do not expect any great delay. It would not be right to make a job estimate at present, but a £50 million initial development in the area will clearly provide great scope for job creation.

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake the much easier ministerial function of telling us how many jobs have been lost in Cardiff in the past year and in south Wales generally since the Government came to power in 1979?

The unemployment figures are well known and it is clear that a significant number of jobs have been lost. Nevertheless, it is, and should be, a matter for satisfaction that there is a rising tide of new job creation, that an all-time record of more than 2 million sq ft of factory space in Government factories will have been allocated this year, that the number of selective financial assistance cases is rising and that a considerable number of new major projects, including inward investment projects, have already been announced.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total number of unemployed for more than 52 weeks in Wales and the corresponding number in 1979.

In October 1983, 64,917 claimants in Wales had been unemployed for over 52 weeks. In October 1979, the number of people registered in the same category was 22,819.

I view with concern the complacency with which the Secretary of State gives these replies. Is he aware of the degradation, despair and mental torture of people who are unemployed for long periods? Does he realise that the only hope that people in Wales who have been out of work for more than 12 months have had from this Government was the hope that they would get a job under the community programme, but that the number of places on that programme are now being cut back? Does he realise that in the Ogwr borough area alone one scheme of 64 jobs has been cut, 800 have gone in mid-Glamorgan, and even more in Wales generally? What has the Secretary of State been doing in the Cabinet to protect some of the jobs that we thought would go to the long-term unemployed in Wales?

We have recently allocated a further £15 million for Great Britain to enable the MSC to build up the community programme to the 130,000 filled places by the spring of 1984 that was previously planned. We are spending about £1 billion on the employment programme generally, and the job-creating activities that I mentioned earlier are of supreme importance for the future of people who are at present unemployed.

Did my right hon. Friend hear the comments on television last night of Mr. Peter Summers of the Deeside enterprise trust, that the trust had almost reached the half-way mark in replacing the 8,000 jobs lost in the Shotton closure? Does my right hon. Friend agree that that tremendous achievement in job creation lies in the face of the preachers of doom on the Opposition Benches?

I agree, too, that enterprise trusts are doing a very good job. I am sure that my hon. Friend will be pleased to know that the Angus Chemical Company of Illinois and Isochem of France today announced that, subject to the satisfactory conclusion of negotiations, they intend to build a speciality chemical manufacturing plant on a joint venture basis on the Deeside industrial park, and that 250 jobs will be created. I visited the Angus Chemical Company in Chicago in September, and I am particularly pleased about the prospect of that development.

What advice can the Secretary of State for Wales give to young people in Wales at die beginning of 1984 as what to do during the next few months, particularly those who have been unemployed since they left school?

It is a matter of great satisfaction that the guarantee given to school leavers has been substantially met again in the current year. Of course, projects such as I have just announced will provide the jobs in the future for those who are now leaving school. Another announcement is being made today by an established firm, A.B. Electronics, of a major expansion of two projects, which are likely to produce several hundred additional jobs. Firms such as Angus Chemicals and B.B. Electronics will provide the prospects that we all want for our young people.

I sincerely welcome the right hon. Gentleman's announcement about jobs in north-east Wales, but I remind him that under his regime Wales has lost 103,000 manufacturing jobs, including 30,000 steel redundancies, 2,500 coal redundancies and 4,000 textile job losses? Does he further understand that, following the last count, the right hon. Gentleman now presides over 12,000 jobless 18-year-olds and 9,000 jobless 17-yearolds? What will he do urgently to find jobs for young people in Wales who are out of work?

I have already listed a good many of the things that we are doing. It is surely a matter of satisfaction that the job-creating prospects of the SFA applications that I mentioned has reached the best figure since 1974. I am also delighted that our new inward investment operation, WINvest, which has handled 186 company visits in Wales since it was established on 1 April, has been able to secure another 16 new overseas projects and seven expansion projects by existing overseas companies. Such work, rather than the specious and alarmist talk that is all that we hear from the Opposition Benches will provide jobs for the future. However, I am glad to see that a certain new realism is affecting the Leader of the Opposition, who has apparently abandoned his previous targets for job creation.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what action he proposes to reduce the level of unemployment in Wales amongst 16 to 18-year-olds by the end of 1984.

The Government will be providing around £1 billion next year on schemes aimed specifically at improving the employment prospects of young people.

In the light of the good news that the Secretary of State has just given us, will he give an undertaking that the level of unemployment among 16 to 18-year-olds will be lower at the end of 1984 than at the beginning?

The hon. Member knows perfectly well that anyone who gave such an undertaking would be—

Conservative?

—wildly irresponsible. The fact that the Labour party made such promises at the last election was one of the reasons why its economic policies were discarded by the electorate.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Cambridgeshire North-East on 31 October, Official Report, c. 618, if he will make a statement on the application to erect a white marble tombstone in Mepal churchyard.

As I have explained by letter to the hon. Gentleman, applications for the erection of tombstones are not matters for the Commissioners. They are made to the incumbent, who must act within any regulations issued by the consistory court of the diocese and to which an appeal may be made.

While I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that reply, would he not accept that whereas, in the long term, environmental factors must be given priority, in the short term the Church Commissioners should be rather more sensitive towards the heartfelt wishes of the deceased, especially in a case such as this? The churchyard contains many white marble tombstones, some of them commemorating members of the same generation of the same family as the person for whom the application has been refused.

I must be careful to avoid any comment on that case, which is now before the consistory court and is therefore sub judice. Furthermore, with due respect to the hon. Gentleman, I must repeat that the Church Commissioners are not responsible for the erection of tombstones.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners. how many ecclesiastical buildings are currently classified as listed.

The Church Commissioners are not themselves responsible for maintaining separate lists of all listed ecclesiastical buildings. Such buildings are, however, included, though not specifically identified, in the full lists prepared and maintained by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that in consultations between the Department of the Environment and the Church Commissioners over the possible listing of ecclesiastical buildings, a fair balance is struck between the safeguarding of the architectural heritage and the ability to finance preservation?

I can answer only in respect of buildings for which the Church Commissioners are responsible, and they are not responsible for the vast majority of churches. The Church Commissioners would certainly not wish to receive more favourable treatment than any other owner. We are always notified, as are others, of the broad lists of listed buildings.

Can my hon. Friend extend his concern to some of the contents of those buildings? I am thinking of the selling of communion plate and other sacred objects given or bequeathed by pious benefactors. This is causing great concern, particularly on the eve of Christian heritage year.

I do not wish to be unhelpful, but I must limit myself strictly to buildings for which the Church Commissioners are responsible. If I do not do so, more questions will appear on the Order Paper. In relation to those buildings alone, there are very stringent regulations. I suspect that my hon. Friend is referring to churches for which the Church Commissioners are not answerable.

With regard to the highest graded buildings of architectural or historical interest in the ownership of the Church Commissioners or the Church of England, is it not a fact that only one, to date, has been demolished? Is not the fact that all the others have been maintained in one form or another a matter for commendation of the Church Commissioners?

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. That is the position with regard to those buildings for which the Commissioners are responsible, which have been declared redundant or which have passed through their hands. I hope that that shows the careful stewardship of the Church Commissioners.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, what new initiatives the Commission propose to improve the state of industrial relations for employees for whom the Commission is responsible.

A number of issues remain under discussion between management and staff side, and the Commission is hopeful that they will be resolved in due course.

Would it not help to improve industrial relations if existing staff were given first consideration when vacancies arise? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there have been occasions when vacancies have been advertised externally, external applicants have been interviewed at considerable expense, and the post was eventually given to an internal applicant, anyway? Is not that a deplorable waste of time and money?

The Commission is concerned that members of staff should have the full opportunity to compete for internal appointments, and has gone to considerable lengths to satisfy itself that the staff of the House are given a full and free opportunity to compete for senior posts. However, the Commission would be criticised if it did not, in appropriate circumstances, ensure that open competition took place.

For how many posts does the Commission have responsibility in terms of appointments and services?

I should require notice of that question.

We go back to question No. 14.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Should we not continue supplementary questions on question No. 13 because no supplementary questions were called on a very important matter, the unemployment of 16 to 18-year-olds?

Order. That is the luck of the draw, but we are back on Welsh questions now.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many private house building starts have been made in Wales in the latest available year; and how this compares with the previous year.

Private house building starts during 1983 in Wales are provisionally estimated at 6,235. That is an increase of some 14 per cent. over 1982 starts.

I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House will welcome that significant increase. Does my hon. Friend agree that it shows a welcome input to the construction industry in Wales?

I agree with my hon. Friend. The figures are most encouraging, particularly because this is tie third year that there has been an increase. Private starts are now 40 per cent. higher than in 1981.

How do those figures compare with 1979?

I should require notice of that question.

Will the Under-Secretary help the House by publishing the figures under the Labour Government and this Government, since they were elected, for both private and public starts, so that we can make a true comparison?

The figures are available, but I might help the hon. Gentleman by saying that in some years, certainly 1977 and 1978, public sector starts under the Labour Government were not as high as the number of private sector starts that I have just given.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many authorities are planning to spend in 1983–84 at or below their revenue expenditure targets where these targets are less than the grant-related expenditure assessment.

Twenty.

Does not that show that the authorities that have been hardest hit are those that have continued to exercise restraint in their budgets? Is it not time that the Secretary of State realised that and accepted that targets have historically been based on past spending, and it not time that he freed those authorities from any grant hold-back or any penalties if their spending is below the grant-related expenditure assessment?

No, Sir. I shall cite the example of Wrexham, the hon. Gentleman's constituency, to provide the reason why I say that. The reason why there has been a reduction between the 1983–84 budget and the 1984–85 target for Wrexham is that it has not increased its average council house rent by the recommended 85p per week. Indeed, it has refused to increase the rent at all. The cash reduction can therefore be blamed almost entirely on the authority's unwillingness to recognise the clear need to bring council house rents more into line with those charged by other district authorities in Wales.

Can the Secretary of State inform the House—and, as my hon. Friend said earlier, a simple yes will do—whether the cost of public housing per unit in Wales is less than the cost of public housing in the Falkland Islands?

To receive an answer to that question the hon. Gentleman would have put down a separate question. He will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has already stated that he will be reviewing decisions about certain housing plans for the Falklands.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what representations the Minister for the Arts has received in the subject of the Arts Council's grant for 1984–85.

My noble Friend has received a number of representations, both before and after the announcement of grant for 1984–85.

Would the Under-Secretary of State confirm that the representations of the regional arts associations show that they are in despair over the Government's policy, which once again ignores the regional case? When are the Government going to end their anti-regional bias in arts funding?

I have to say that I have answered this question from the hon. Member previously. The balance of spending, and the Arts Council's decisions on spending on the regions versus London and the south-east, have steadily moved in favour of the regions over the past 20 years. These decisions, which continue in the same direction, must be for the Arts Council to take.

As the Arts Council budget has been increased by £8 million from £92 million to £100 million, which is an increase of approximately 8 per cent. at a time of 5 per cent. inflation—which is a 3 per cent. increase in real terms—may I ask whether the Arts Council is pleased?

I can say that the answer to that is yes. I think that the House and all those who are concerned about the arts, particularly publicly funded arts, should congratulate my noble Friend on the settlement that he has achieved this year.

Will the Minister ensure that the Royal Shakespeare Company's regional tours are fully funded? Is he aware that the most recent tour of the Royal Shakespeare Company regional organisation to my constituency in Workington was a sell-out, a resounding success, and will he ensure that it is always supported with whatever finance it needs in the future so that we in the regions are enabled to enjoy that which would otherwise be available only in parts of London?

No one doubts the importance of what the hon. Member has said, but I must say, as to the purpose of the Arts Council, that the decisions on how much money to spend on which aspects must be for the Arts Council.

As the grant to the Arts Council increases continuously, there seems to be no need for us to increase revenue and penalise those who enjoy the arcs. Would my hon. Friend therefore confirm that there is no intention to reintroduce musuem charges?

It is a matter for the individual trustees of the museums to bring forward proposals, should they want to do so, to introduce charges. I believe that one museum has made such proposals recently.

That last answer, I think, will cause a lot of anxiety throughout the museums in Britain. We had expected at least a rejection in principle of the concept of payment for museums—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"] For the reasons that were given by the House when the then Prime Minister tried to bring it in 10 years ago.

The hon. Gentleman has asked two questions there. On the first point, what I have said will be no news at all to anybody who knows the museum situation. That has been the policy for some time now. On the second point, my noble Friend has issued a consultation paper, and he made an interesting speech yesterday in Newcastle on the matter. He has reaffirmed that the intention of the Department of the Environment to abolish the metropolitan counties does not derive from any wish to diminish funding for the arts. and he is willing to consult about the maintenance of reasonable spending on the arts.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what plans the Minister for the Arts has for further Rayner-style investigations into major arts recipients of public funds.

My noble Friend has no such plans at present.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. However, does not he agree that, as public finance is involved in supporting the arts, inquiries to ensure value for money are essential?

There is a great deal in what my hon. Friend says.

Did not the Rayner inquiry merely confirm what the Arts Council has been telling the Government for many years which is that the large national arts institutions are underfunded? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that one company that is seriously underfunded and has a large deficit is the London Festival Ballet? Will he give us an assurance that the LFB's £200,000 deficit will be taken up and, if he cannot do that, will he set up a Rayner-style inquiry into the LFB?

The London Festival Ballet is on the consultation list issued by my noble Friend. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Rayner report showed that the big companies have been underfunded. That is why my noble Friend found more funds for them.

Does the Minister accept that these issues involve an artistic judgment, for which Rayner-type scrutinies are hardly suitable? I remind the hon. Gentleman of the disastrous inquiry that recommended not proceeding with the Theatre museum.

My noble Friend has succeeded in going ahead with the Theatre museum and deserves congratulations on that. The big companies are the first to say that the scale of their operations needs up-to-date management skills and they were grateful for many of the recommendations in the Priestley report.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Minister for the Arts has yet come to any conclusion in his consideration of the request by the Greek Government for the return of the Parthenon marbles to Greece.

A formal reply to the Greek Government's request will be given soon.

What possible justification can there be for Britain hanging on to the marbles, which were stolen by Lord Elgin from the people of Greece? In the interests of simple justice and good relations between Britain and Greece, will the Minister ensure that the marbles are returned to their rightful owners and sited as near as possible to their original environment?

The marbles were not stolen from anyone. A Select Committee has looked into the matter and decided that they were not stolen. The hon. Gentleman's comments are almost as foolish and ignorant as those of the Leader of the Opposition who, such was his ignorance of the matter, made it appear that he thought that the Greek Government proposed to put the marbles back on the Parthenon, which is, of course, out of the question. The right hon. Gentleman said:

"The Parthenon without the marbles is like a smile with a tooth missing."

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Parthenon marbles are as much a part of the heritage of Western civilisation as a whole as they are a factor in the would-be national myths of modern Greece? In that case, are they not as well placed in London as they would be elsewhere?

I think that that is so. Indeed, a process that started the destruction of the great museums of the world—if hon. Members look at question No. 30 on the Order Paper, they will see that this will not be the last such demand—would be a major disaster for world culture as well as for European culture.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that if it were practicable to replace the marbles on the Parthenon there would be a very strong case for doing so? As it is only a question of taking them from one museum to another, that is a much less attractive idea, except in the context of a general cultural interchange.

The right hon. Gentleman is better informed than his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, because that is, indeed, the proposal. I sympathise with what he said, but if we started breaking up the great museums by repatriating items, it would be a very serious mistake.

May we take it from my hon. Friend's robust and sensible answers that there is no question of the Government being bludgeoned or seduced into parting with the marbles?

I hope that all that my hon. Friend can learn from my replies is that the answer that will be given by the Government in due course will be better considered than the policy proposed by the Leader of the Opposition.

Does the hon. Gentleman realise that the picture that he has given of my right hon. Friend's concept and understanding of the problem of the marbles is wrong? Whatever may be attributable to Welsh hwyl, the Minister's concepts are wrong. Nobody is suggesting a massive interchange of art treasures — if we tried to return all the Titians and Tintorettos to Italy we should not be thanked for it. However, there are two or three special cases—West Africa is an example, and clearly so are the Parthenon marbles—in which the importance of the items to the originating country far outweighs even the artistic value. A national perception is also involved. If Greece is the fount of western civilisation, we should accept the role of the Parthenon and the entire Acropolis, to which these marbles should be returned. This is not instant policy-making. The Opposition believe that it is right to do this and we intend to do it.

I am not sure what the Parthenon is a symbol of except Athenian imperialism, of which it was built as a symbol. There is a proposal to have massive circulation of monuments. I quote from what the Leader of the Opposition said:

"supplementary to this is the need to give effect to a system of rotation of ancient treasures to make them accessible in the greatest numbers of places and to the greatest number of people "