asked the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has for improving housing conditions in Wales.

The most pressing need is to improve the condition of the existing housing stock, of which 40 per cent. was built before 1919. Housing improvements have been carried out at record levels over the past four years, and the total capital available for local authority housing will exceed £150 million in the coming financial year.

I must thank British Rail for its excellent effort after the points failure at Chester this morning. I missed my connection but was taken to Crewe and the waiting train then arrived early at Euston.

As I have told the House on a number of occasions, there has been a long-term decline in public sector house building. For example, during the period of the last Labour Government between 1975 and 1979 there was a decline of about 59 per cent. in local authority house building.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the abolition of the zero rating of value added tax on alterations and extensions to houses would be a retrograde step?

That is really a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Even though there was a decline in 1979 from the 1974 figures, Welsh people wanting housing definitely want those 1979 figures to be restored. Does the Under-Secretary of State still hold to the view he expressed in September 1982 to the Council for the Principality that, on a conservative estimate, Wales needs 12,000 new buildings each year for 20 years?

That is certainly one way of looking at our housing needs, but the current emphasis is on rehabilitation. I am glad to tell the House that the outlook is nothing like as gloomy as Opposition Members would have us believe. Since the 1982 Budget, local authorities have received a total of 107,000 applications for housing grants, not all of them qualifying for the enhanced rate. About 69,000 have been approved and 43,000 have been paid.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, if councils such as Newport were to speed up the sale of council houses, more funds would be available for home improvement grants?

We are dependent on progress with rehabilitation and, in housing generally, on the sale of council houses. The added benefit is that we shall increase the number of home owners. I am glad that since 1979 the proportion of home owners in Wales has increased significantly.

Given the emphasis that the Under-Secretary claims he is giving to renovation, how does he explain the fact that thousands of people in Wales who expected to obtain improvement grants this year must wait four, five and six years before they obtain the money that is badly needed to improve their homes?

As usual, the hon. Gentleman exaggerates his position. Exaggeration has never proved a case yet. Many authorities are readjusting their policies in view of the announcement of their housing allocations for next year. I have already given the figures. of the 107,000 applications for grant, 69,000 have been approved and 43,000 have been paid.

Will my hon. Friend estimate what proportion of the houses that were classified as unfit in 1980 are no longer unfit as a result of the excellent improvement grants?

The 1981 survey showed that there were about 91,000 unfit houses. About 40,000 repair grant applications have been approved, so we have made an impact, which will show up in the next housing survey.

'Will the Minister inform the House why local authorities in Wales built fewer private houses in the public sector in the 1980s than in the 1970s?

I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman means, but I think that he was referring all the time to the public sector. It is entirely up to the local authorities whether they build, but it seems fairly clear, looking at the last decade, that they, like us, are moving towards rehabilitation. For example, today I have approved three new enveloping schemes to be carried out by Cardiff, Rhondda and Ogwr district councils, under which 443 houses in urgent need of attention are to be enveloped.

While housing unfitness is principally a private sector phenomenon, does my hon. Friend agree that council house maintenance is a very important responsibility of borough councils, and that, if such maintenance had been carried out properly in the past 20 or 30 years, boroughs such as mine in Delyn would not now have to spend upward of £1 million a year on extremely expensive rolling programmes of improvements?

If my hon. Friend looks at an answer that I gave at a previous Welsh Question Time he will see that local authorities have spent significant amounts on repairing their dwellings. He will also know that the Housing and Building Control Bill introduces a right to repair that will enable council tenants to carry out repairs themselves and claim reimbursement from their landlords.

Does the Under-Secretary understand that more than 3,000 skilled building operatives and tens of thousands of construction workers in Wales are out of work? Is it not the case that his programme offers them no chance of work?

Our housing programme, with expenditure of about £150 million, is a significant programme, and should give employment to many unemployed people.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received, pursuant to the decision to survey the requirement for a second Severn crossing, relating to such a second crossing; and if he will make a statement.

Following the announcement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport on 7 February about a study of a second Severn crossing, I have received representations from the Welsh office of the Confederation of British Industry, other commercial interests and local authorities. Those clearly show a welcome for my right hon. Friend's announcement, and I know that those sentiments are widely shared in Wales.

I confirm the latter point in my hon. Friend's comments, but in view of the problems that we seem to be having, not just with the Severn bridge but, recently, with Hammersmith bridge, both of which are road bridges, and in view of the lack of problems with rail tunnels, including the old one under the Severn, will my hon. Friend assure the House: that a tunnel alongside a bridge will be considered as a possibility? Secondly, has he cleared his mind of any possibility of the second crossing being a rail crossing, and might it be possible to combine rail and road in one crossing?

As the House will know, the terms of reference of the feasibility study are being drawn up with all speed, and they will be announced in the not-to-distant future. A two-year timetable was given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The question of a tunnel will be taken into consideration. I know my hon. Friend's addiction to railways, and I commend him for that. All factors will be taken into account before the final terms of reference are decided.

Does the hon. Gentleman want to see a second crossing of the Severn?

There is no doubt about the Government's commitment to maintaining a first-class crossing of the Severn into Wales, in the interests of the Principality in general and of south Wales in particular.

Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that the terms of reference will be as wide as possible and will embrace the alternative mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Mr. Adley), and will even contemplate the possibility of a barrage?

I can give an assurance that the terms of reference will be wide, but I must make one proviso clear. We do not wish to delay the study, and therefore the barrage must stand or fall on its ability to generate electricity. That is the first priority. Other than that, it will be possible to take it into account in arriving at our conclusion.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the pupil-teacher ratio in secondary schools in Wales at the most recent count; and how this compares with the ratio in 1978.

The ratio was 16.5:1 in January 1983 compared with 17:1 in January 1978.

Does my hon. Friend agree that those figures show a satisfactory improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio? Does he think that they are reflected in improving standards in secondary schools?

I think that the trend is satisfactory, but I stress that the pupil-teacher ratio, although important, is only one factor in improving standards. Generally we must always seek further improvements in standards, and improvements in the pupil-teacher ratio can contribute to that.

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio stems largely from the reduction in rolls? Will he further accept that the Government's public expenditure programme will eventually mean that standards in Welsh schools will fall and that the pupil-teacher ratio will get worse?

Falling rolls are obviously a factor, but they are not the only one. The allocation of resources is a matter for local education authorities, and there is no substitute for good management, which also plays an important part in the improvement of standards.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of youth training scheme places in Wales will be funded under mode A and mode B, respectively, during 1984–85.

I am informed by the Manpower Services Commission that in 1984–85 it plans to fund 74 per cent. of the youth training scheme places under mode A and 26 per cent. under mode B.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the 30 per cent. reduction that he is requiring the MSC to impose on mode B schemes will mean that 90 highly qualified staff will be sacked in the counties of Mid-Glamorgan and South Glamorgan this month? Is he also aware that last month there were 370 wholly unemployed young people in the Rhymney valley and not one unfilled vacancy? Will the Secretary of State press the MSC to ensure that there is no cut in mode B schemes, at least until the commission is satisfied that adequate alternatives exist under mode A schemes?

The choice is one for the MSC, as I made clear in the Welsh day debate. However, the hon. Gentleman's point would be more effective but for the fact that in Mid-Glamorgan and South Glamorgan there is an increase in the proposed provision of mode B schemes — from 2,491 to 2,520 approved entrants. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Rhymney valley The ratio there is 56 per cent. mode A to 44 per cent. mode B, because the MSC is clearly taking account of local conditions, Where there is a shortage of employer-led schemes, it is adopting mode B.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many school visits he made in 1983; and if he will make a statement.

During 1983 I made seven such visits, four to secondary schools and three to primary schools.

As about 20,000 people work in the school meals service in Wales, and as the service is to be affected by public expenditure cuts and ratecapping, will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that the price of school meals will not escalate sharply, that there will be no job losses in the school meals service and that there will be no cuts in the hours worked by those employed in the service?

I can give no such guarantees, but I shall bear in mind the points behind the question and keep a careful watch on the circumstances.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio has been matched by an equally dramatic reduction in the number of unqualified school leavers, down from a high of 13·4 per cent. under the last Labour Government to 8·3 per cent. now, and an increase in the number of school leavers going on to further and higher education, up from 23 per cent. under the last Labour Government to 29 per cent. now?

My hon. Friend's question is a clear demonstration that standards are improving and that the Opposition's allegations that our cuts are harming education are entirely unjustified.

Does the Minister accept that his recent answers to me show that the training and updating of head teachers is a major contribution to the development of curricula within schools, and is he satisfied that his Department's funding activity in Bristol meets the needs of the training of head teachers in Wales?

This is an important matter, and we are making every effort to introduce schemes in Wales that will help head teachers, because they are vital to the success of a school.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement regarding the progress of WINvest since it inauguration in April 1983.

WINvest has made a very positive start to its operations. The different bodies involved in inward investment have been welded together into a unified, effective and professional organisation, well equipped to sell the considerable attractions that Wales has to offer to potential investors.

How many overseas companies have recently shown an intention to set up in Wales, how many overseas companies have recently shown that they are expanding their operations in Wales, and how many jobs are involved?

As I said in the recent Welsh day debate, since 1 April, 18 overseas companies have announced their intention to set up in Wales, providing nearly 2,000 jobs. In the same period, 10 existing overseas companies have announced expansion projects, creating a further 350 new jobs and safeguarding almost 2,000.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that in his recent study, "Overseas Investment in Wales", Professor Glyn Davies of Cardiff said that the most important consideration for these companies was the availability of regional development grants? In view of the Government's intention to save millions of pounds by cutting these grants, does not the Secretary of State fear that there will be less investment in Wales in the future?

Undoubtedly, regional policy has a part to play, and we shall continue to have an effective regional policy. As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been considerable waste of grant on large capital projects that would have gone ahead in any case. I speak as the Member for a constituency that has benefited considerably in that respect because of the large number of oil refineries.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what actions his Department will take in the light of Her Majesty's inspectors' education survey 11 on the teaching of modern languages in schools in Wales.

The consultative paper "Foreign Languages in the School Curriculum" aroused great interest and much discussion. The findings of the Wales survey will further inform efforts to formulate, for the first time, a national policy for foreign languages in schools.

Is my hon. Friend as alarmed as I am at the low standards that were revealed in this report on language teaching in Wales? Does he agree that it shows the disservice to the young people in Wales in economic as much as in cultural terms?

There is room for some disquiet and for further efforts to improve the position. The report brings out clearly the importance of head teachers and of heads of departments in the matter.

Will the Minister draw to the attention of teachers in Wales the valuable work that can be achieved through language awareness courses and the need to extend language awareness across the curriculum, not just through teaching languages but in terms of subject areas?

That is a helpful suggestion and I shall look into the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he makes of the economic prospects for farming in Wales.

The measures needed to reduce surpluses and control Community expenditure on agriculture are bound to affect farming incomes in Wales as elsewhere; but I believe that Welsh farmers are well capable of adapting to the changes.

Is the Secretary of State not aware that many Welsh dairy farmers are very worried that the agricultural and horticultural development scheme will not have a roll-over provision for them for the six months from 1 January? Given that many farms in Wales are mixed, how will it be possible, for the purposes of the scheme, to differentiate between the dairy farming and the non-dairy farming elements in respect of investment in soil improvement, fencing and general work of that type?

At the moment, existing schemes are being rolled over because agreement has not been reached on future provision. In view of the complications of the current negotiations, it is a bit early to speculate exactly how farmers will have to deal with matters which have not been finally settled.

Is the Secretary of State in favour of introducing a quota system to dissuade Welsh farmers from producing extra food from the land?

I am certain that a large number of Welsh farmers and farming interests believe that a quota system may be the best way to protect individual farms in a time of change. The current negotiations in Europe lead one to the conclusion that some form of quota system may emerge, even though Her Majesty's Government have advocated a system based on prices. It is right that we should be discussing with the unions the form that a quota system should take.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is great satisfaction in the hill areas of Wales at the Government's success in obtaining an extension of the less-favoured areas definition?

I am sure that the announcement that we have been successful in the negotiations on marginal land will be widely welcomed. It has been fought for over a long period and I know that it will make a considerable contribution once we have been able to introduce the new arrangements.

Should farming prospects in Wales be so dependent on the loss of historic sites as outlined in the article in The Guardian last Friday, in which a journalist bitterly attacked the Secretary of State for Wales for allowing the uncontrolled decimation of historic sites in Wales? Will the right hon. Gentleman answer from the Dispatch Box the accusations levelled in that article, because it is farmers who are benefiting?

There is no truth in the suggestion that there is uncontrolled decimation of sites. The article is riddled with inaccuracies. Certainly there is no truth in the suggestion that farmers are profiting in this way. It is an absurd invention, and I reject it entirely.

Does the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge the growing unease in the dairy sector in Wales, especially amongst those farmers with a dependence on the milk cheque from, say, only 40 or 50 beasts? Does he have in mind any major initiative by his Department? Does he accept that there is a parallel between the dairy farmers and those who distribute the milk and that in the latter case many thousands of jobs ultimately are at stake?

I understand the concern. I represent a very large number of milk producers. I have been speaking extremely frankly to them about the changes that will be needed. But they understand the need to deal with a situation in which we are producing surpluses at excessive cost, and many of them will be beginning to look at their farming systems to see whether they can reduce their input costs.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what recent representations he has received concerning the state of the pig industry in Wales; and what measures he plans to deal with them.

I have received representations from both farming unions in Wales and many producers about the state of the pig sector. Support arrangements for the industry are currently being considered as part of the 1984–85 common agricultural policy price negotiations.

Does my right hon. Friend anticipate any improvement in this sector in the months ahead?

It is always rash to forecast trends of that kind. As my hon. Friend knows, at the level of the European Community we have pressed for the early introduction of aids for private storage when the pigmeat market has shown signs of weakening, and we have secured the reintroduction of such aids. We have also pressed for export refunds to be maintained at appropriate levels. We are encouraging and helping the trade to open new markets. All those measures will help the industry.

Will the Secretary of State say how many pig farmers, or, for that matter, other farmers, are unemployed in Wales?

That is not the way in which the system works. People either withdraw from agriculture during a period of change, as many have done during the past 20 or 30 years, or they switch to other forms of agriculture in which they can make a profit. We have an efficient industry which, consistently over a long period has reduced the number of people employed and increased productivity.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of the Welsh committee of the Countryside Commission; and what subjects were discussed.

I met the chairman of the committee on 22 February to discuss national park matters.

I am glad to hear that that meeting has taken place. Can the Minister tell us whether, in his discussions with the chairman, the consultants' report on the so-called efficiency of national parks was discussed? Can he assure the House that no crude standards will be applied to national parks, in particular to the essential study centre at Tan-y-bwlch in my constituency, which is threatened by the alleged efficiencies proposed by the consultants?

The Countryside Commission, which sponsored the report jointly with the Department of the Environment and the Welsh Office, is now awaiting the responses of the national park authorities and the local authority associations. The Countryside Commission committee for Wales will be fully involved in considering those responses and in making recommendations to the Government. I have noted the specific matter that the hon. Gentleman raised. At the last meeting, in the light of what I have just said, there was no real purpose in having an in-depth discussion on the subject, because the review is coming forward and we shall have further consultations.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what financial provisions were made by the Welsh Office for support of the Welsh language in (a) 1979 and (b) 1983; and whether this represents an increase after taking into account pay and price factors.

Welsh Office support for the Welsh language has increased substantially in real terms since 1979. Grants totalling £709,071 were approved in 1979–80, and £2,666,236 will have been allocated in 1983–84.

Do not those figures demonstrate the absurdity of current allegations about cuts in financial support for the Welsh language? Can my hon. Friend estimate how much of the budget for the coming year will be applied to computer-related studies?

On the latter point, I assure my hon. Friend that some of the grants offered in the education sector reflect the growing importance of computer-related studies. Authorities will be able to purchase equipment and to prepare and translate a variety of programmes in Welsh. I cannot quantify the exact figures, but my hon. Friend is right when he says that this support makes nonesense of any talk of cuts. Moreover, it makes nonsense of the exhortation that we had recently from the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), the president of Plaid Cymru, on St. David's day, to his followers to take action outside the law.

Is the Minister prepared to give financial support to those local education authorities in Wales which are now prepared to start teaching certain subjects through the medium of the Welsh language in schools which are not designated as bilingual but are regarded as the counterpart of bilingual schools, the so-called English comprehensive schools, and for more Welsh teaching in those schools which have not been segregated into bilingual and English?

Local authorities are at liberty, and are in fact encouraged, as are other bodies, to apply for section 21 grants; and we give every application the requisite consideration.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the promotion of the Welsh language relies largely on the enforcement of the law in this respect? Does he accept that those who call for breaches of the law, like those hooligans who demonstrated against my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales the other day, do much to damage the cause that they seek to serve?

I agree with my hon. Friend. Those who try to advance the cause of the language by denying free speech, as some did to my right hon. Friend at the weekend, do great harm to the cause that they seek to serve and undermine much of the good will that exists towards the language.

Does the Minister accept that, after the Conservative Government broke their election pledge on the fourth channel in 1979, the only way to remind them of that pledge was for people to break the law by refusing to pay their television licence fees? Will the hon. Gentleman now take the opportunity to repudiate what was said by two of his hon. Friends this morning—that the mere £2 million that has been spent on the Welsh language is a waste of money? Is that the attitude of Conservative Back Benchers in England?

We are giving over £2 million towards the Welsh language, which is four times as much as was given by our predecessors, whom the hon. Gentleman supported.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the increase in local government employment in Wales since September 1981; and what the cost of this increase represents in terms of rate poundage.

Between September 1981 and September 1983, the most recent date for which figures are available, local government manpower in Wales, in terms of full-time equivalents, rose by 763 or 0·6 per cent. However, between September 1982 and September 1983 there was an increase of 1,140 or 0·9 per cent. full-time equivalents. Had this increase not occurred, ratepayers would have saved up to £15 million, equivalent to 5½p in rate poundage terms.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that that extremely worrying upward trend in local government employment is costing jobs in manufacturing industry and that counties such as Clwyd are destroying wealth-producing jobs in the private sector by increasing their staff by 413 in the last quarter? Does he further agree that if those increases in local authority staff in Wales had not taken place, instead of rates increasing in the current financial year they could have fallen; and can he tell the House by how much?

I agree with my hon. Friend about the damage that is being done. If Clwyd's manpower had not been increased by 1·5 per cent. between September 1982 and September 1983, which was well above the average, the county council's rate increase might well have been down to a record 5 or 6 per cent., or even lower, instead of the 9·5 per cent. that it now proposed.

As the Secretary of State and his Ministers are projecting a fairy godfather image this afternoon, will he tell the House in what areas that increase in local government employment took place?

They vary widely from local authority to local authority. One of the arguments put forward last year was that it arose from the increase in house improvement grants and that much of it came from the county councils.

There are 25,000 people out of work in Clwyd. How many people are out of work in Wales?

That does not arise from this question, but more people are out of work in Clwyd and in Wales because of the high rating decisions by local authorities.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if the availability of part 3 accommodation for the elderly in Wales has kept pace with the increase in numbers of potential clients for the residential service.

There is no generally agreed definition of the potential clientele for residential care. However, since 1979 the population aged over 65 in Wales has increased by some 4·5 per cent., while the total number of residential places provided for elderly people in local authority, private and voluntary homes has increased by almost 16 per cent.

Is the Minister aware of the great difficulty of local authorities in receiving patients who have been discharged from geriatric hospitals? There are not enough rooms in local authority homes for people who have been discharged. The result is a log-jam and people have to be kept in geriatric wards, which excludes others who need urgent admission.

Yes, I am aware of the problem to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. That is why we have always stressed to local authorities the continuing need for available resources to be concentrated on those services which support people in their homes in the community. Furthermore, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the county authorities have increased their spending on personal social services for the elderly from £22 million in 1978–79 to £40 million in the current year, so they are doing their best to tackle the kind of problem to which he refers.

Does the Minister accept that the cuts that his Department has imposed on local authorities make it very difficult for social services departments and healh authorities to cope with the demands of an increasingly elderly population? Does he not recognise that this should be a key area in terms of funding, not just in terms of policy pronouncements?

It certainly is a key element in both. That is why I said that we had drawn particular attention to the increasing numbers of elderly people and asked local authorities to give them high priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will indicate on what date he intends to meet the chairman of the National Coal Board to discuss the subject of pit closures in Wales.

Although I have numerous informal meetings with Mr. MacGregor, I have no immediate plans for an official meeting to discuss pit closures.

I regret that the Secretary of State has given me that reply, because since 1979 in my area we have had the closure of the Caerau colliery and the Coegnant colliery. On 7 January this year the Wyndham Western colliery was closed. The St. John's colliery in Maesteg has geological problems. Is the increase of imported coal one of the main reasons for MacGregor wanting to close collieries, and does it have anything to do with the fact that his banking interests are concerned with the country of origin of the imported coal?

That is a disgraceful suggestion and typical of the sorts of remarks made in the House by the hon. Gentleman. I last met the chairman in December, when we had wide-ranging discussions. As I made clear in the Welsh day debate last week, it will continue to be necessary to close grossly uneconomic pits. I know about the geological problems that have been encountered at St. John's. I understand that the management and unions are considering its future with a view to reporting in the next few weeks. In the circumstances, it would be wrong to speculate.

Is the Minister aware that at a recent reception Sir Walter Marshall, the chairman of the Central Electricity Generating Board, stated that if the board were free to import coal the price of its fuel could be reduced by 25 per cent., and electricity prices by between 10 and 15 per cent.?

That is the sort of conflicting interest that must be taken into account when considering these matters. I am glad to say that in the south Wales coalfields Aberthaw has been able to take a substantially increased uptake this year, which has meant that there has been a lifting of stocks in the area.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham as representing the Church Commissioners whether he is satisfied with the price, speed and purpose with which the Church Commissioners are selling disused and surplus church sites.

Yes, Sir. Each case is viewed entirely on its merits, and takes account of planning and pastoral considerations, as well as any practical difficulties that may arise in dealing with churchyards.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Is this not an area in which the Church is very much torn between God and mammon, for is not the impression often given that the Church Commissioners are usually interested only in selling, often after long delays, for the highest price, without any consideration of the purpose to which the disused church or its site will be put? Could he, therefore, give a clearer statement of policy from the Church Commissioners?

Delays are often, although not always, caused by considerations that the House is keen the Church Commissioners shall bear in mind, namely, the architectural merit of the building or of its contents, and finding alternative suitable uses. The Pastoral Measure gives power to the Commissioners to dispose of redundant churches, and their sites, as they think fit. They are not necessarily bound always to go for the best price, although they must have regard to the dioceses and redundant churches fund's requirements.

Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not just the disposal of old church buildings that can be the subject of delay? Delays can occur in transferring old church primary school buildings for wider community purposes. Will my hon. Friend do what he can to speed things up?

I answer questions here, as you know, Mr. Speaker, only on matters for which the Church Commissioners are responsible. With respect to my hon. Friend, I do not think that the cases he has in mind are matters for the diocese. If he would care to write to me, I shall make sure that his letter goes to the right place.

The hon. Gentleman answers questions only for which the Church Commissioners have direct responsibilities, but is he aware that the Church Commissioners have enormous influence in many spheres? In that capacity, has he any views on the absurd speech made by an obscure junior Minister about the political speeches of bishops?

Of one thing I am absolutely clear. I am not responsible for my hon. Friend's speech. During Lent, I think that one should try to give up something that one would miss rather too much.

It is, of course, Ash Wednesday during this week, so Lent has not quite begun, which makes my hon. Friend's remarks the more interesting.

It is not possible for me to give a truthful and accurate generalised answer to my hon. Friend about an innumerable variety of different circumstances. However, generally speaking, it is because the church is pastorally no longer required. If my hon. Friend has any special case in mind, I shall be happy to do my best to answer his question in more detail.

In relation to the sale of stained glass windows from disused churches, is it not true that Great Britain has developed a formidable trade in the export of what is our heritage? Why does the Church not intervene to prevent those exports and ensure that the stained glass windows are fixed to other buildings in the United Kingdom?

I should indeed be worried if I thought that valuable, ancient glass was not being made use of or put into careful storage. If the hon. Gentleman has a specific case in mind, I should be happy to look into it.

Will my hon. Friend take a little time during Lent to instruct certain people on how to answer questions?

Generally, Ministers are more fortunate because, on the whole, Mr. Speaker, you keep supplementary questions for Ministers rather more under control.

asked the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed, as representing the House of Commons Commission, for how long members of the staff of the House have been required to report intended visits by them to some Communist countries to their departmental heads; and if he will make a statement.

Specific guidance to this effect was first given in January 1982.

Was that requirement first reported to the House? Why is it necessary for this limitation to be placed upon the staff of the House; and, further, what special reasons are there which require staff in their own time to be treated differently from right hon. and hon. Members?

The matter was first brought to the attention of the House in a question by one of the hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends, to which I gave an answer just over a week ago. The purpose of the requirement to inform departmental heads is to ensure that staff have access to advice which may be useful to them when travelling to certain countries where experience suggests that difficulties for them may arise from their status as employees of the House. I am confident that it is in the interests of staff that they should be given that advice.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this ruling applies to former Officers of the House? As the only former Officer of the House who is a Member of the House, why should I not have my summer holidays in Albania without asking the permission of the Clerk of the House?

Neither present nor former staff are in any way precluded from visiting any of the countries concerned. The procedure is to ensure that they are given advice that may be useful to them.

Is it thought that the KGB may be trying to find out about our parliamentary procedures — adjourtunents, Question Time and the rest — and that therefore it is necessary to have the type of security arrangements to which the hon. Gentleman has referred?

The procedures of the House are well known and readily accessible. I am sure that the House would not wish me to go into more detail as to why it is in the interests of the staff that they should have the advice to which I have referred made available to them.

Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that it has nothing to do with the fact that the Chairman of the Catering Sub-Committee represents Cheltenham?

Yes, Sir.

Why has it taken 14 months for the House to be informed of this change? Could we not perhaps limit the intrusion into the liberty of the servants of the House by confining the requirement to those who, historically, have been shown to be most at risk, thereby automatically excluding those of our cleaners, clerks and others who have not attended the best public schools?

It is the duty of the Commission to keep such arrangements under review. I shall make it my business to ensure that such a review takes account of the views expressed by hon. Members today. The right hon. Gentleman may underestimate the significance of working in this building and the status of members of our staff.

Were staff representatives consulted on this matter; and, of so, on what date?

As I said earlier, the matter has been known to staff since January 1982. Full opportunities for staff representations have existed throughout that time.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts what discussions the Minister for the Arts has had concerning the construction of a new national portrait gallery on the South Bank.

My noble Friend the Minister for the Arts has had no such discussions yet.

Is the Minister aware that the Greater London council has specifically ruled out the sale of any land on the South Bank for the new national portrait gallery? That being so, will he investigate the use of Battersea power station, or a site in Docklands, for the future development of the national portrait gallery?

Originally, the GLC had no objection to the designation of the site as a potential site for the new national portrait gallery. Discussions are at an early stage, and it is for the trustees to consider the possible sites. They are also considering an extension to the present gallery.

Regardless of the site, will the Government publicly confirm that they intend to adhere to their financial obligations and that there will be a new building for the national portrait gallery? Does the Minister agree that the work is at present seriously handicapped?

As yet, there is no agreement by the Government. If the trustees come forward with proposals, these will undoubtedly be discussed by the Government within the existing constraints. However, no agreement has yet been reached.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the arts if the Minister for the Arts has now decided how he plans to make up for the anticipated loss of grants to the arts following the abolition of the metropolitan counties and the Greater London council.

As I have recently told the House, my noble Friend is now considering most carefully the many representations made to him during the consultation period. The pattern of funding for the arts in the affected areas after abolition will depend on the outcome of my noble Friend's deliberations.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the great anxiety of the Bournemouth symphony orchestra and its parent body, Western Orchestral Society, because it has not been shown the national and international recognition that it deserves in my noble Friend's consultation paper? Will he assure the orchestra that it will not miss out because of any shortfall of public funding resulting from the Government's proposals?

The Bournemouth symphony orchestra was not directly involved in the proposals. That is why there was no direct reference to it. If consequential changes to the arts funding affect the Bournemouth symphony orchestra, my noble Friend will take that into account.

Is my hon. Friend aware that London is the arts capital of the world, that it is a tremendous national asset and that it attracts many visitors to this country? Is he further aware that many of us who strongly support the abolition of the GLC wish to be certain that the arts can continue to flourish in London? Have the Government taken on board the extent of the anxiety on that matter?

I assure my hon. Friend that the Government understand the concern, and my noble Friend has made it clear that he will bring forward proposals to meet it.

Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that many in the home counties also look towards London as their arts capital? Will he also take into account the interests of those living in the home counties, particularly in areas such as Hertfordshire and in my constituency?

In so far as the Arts Council and the general taxpayer contribute to the funding of organisations in the London area, those taxpayers are already contributing. However, I shall report my hon. Friend's comments to my noble Friend.

Did my hon. Friend read the leader in The Times on Saturday? Does he accept that many people feel that the Government have made a grand political gesture without thinking through its consequences? Will he ensure that his noble Friend produces a consultative paper when he has had a chance to consider all the various representations that have been made about the decision's implications?

I read the leader and thought that it bore all the hallmarks of one that had been produced by a committee, as there were several different strands running through it. It covered most of the issues, which are certainly well known to the Government. However, I believe that my noble Friend will be bringing forward a paper in response to those points.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if the Minister for the Arts is discussing with the chairman of the Arts Council the future of more local funding of the arts in London, in the event of the abolition of the Greater London council.

My noble Friend the Minister for the Arts is presently reviewing his proposals on the future pattern of arts funding in London after the abolition of the GLC. The Arts Council has expressed its views, which will be fully taken into account. My noble Friend will no doubt discuss these views further in his regular meetings with the chairman.

Does my hon. Friend recognise that the leader in The Times spoke for many Londoners when it said that the last thing they wanted in the event of the GLC's abolition was a joint board of councils with power to precept boroughs. for an arts element? Does my hon. Friend agree that if the GLC is abolished, some of the major arts functions should be taken over by the Arts Council? Will he consider the proposal that some of the minor functions could be taken up by the boroughs if the RSG settlement contained some element to cover arts expenditure?

If we wanted the boroughs to take on a larger role in arts funding, it would be reflected in their rate support grant settlements. My own view is that the least satisfactory solution for the arts would be a joint board.

How many of the 500 or so representations made on this subject by arts organisations approve of the idea? Has the hon. Gentleman listened to the points made today by Conservative Back Benchers? Is he aware of the anxiety that exists in the theatrical, musical and literary spheres about what is happening in the metropolitan authorities and the GLC? Will the hon. Gentleman pass on the view that no decision should be made before a debate has been held on this issue in the House? Hundreds of people, including Sir Laurence Olivier, Brian Rix, Bruce Forsyth, and even the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas), have made representations, so the hon. Gentleman must pay attention to them. There is no reason for going ahead, and all those in the arts are telling him not to do so.

The leader in The Times was correct to say that it would be absurd to defend a particular local government structure simply because of funding the arts. I was not very impressed by the signed advertisements produced on behalf of the GLC by a public relations firm. However, if Mr. Roland Freeman needs the money, that is his job. Nevertheless, I certainly respond to the genuine concern felt by both Opposition and Conservative Members, and my noble Friend has made it clear that there will be no intention on the part of any future local government organisation to damage the arts.

Irrespective of whether the Under-Secretary of State was impressed by the advertisement, will he place in the Library the 500 or so representations that his noble Friend received so that we can judge their value?

No, Sir. In response to other questions, we have said that we will put the list in the Library. It is not right that we should undertake the publication of other people's documents.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if the Minister for the Arts will be having discussions with the Arts Council before bringing forward proposals arising from the arts consultative paper which accompanied Cmnd. 9063.

My noble Friend has regular discussions with the Arts Council about this and other matters.

Will the Minister provide for the chairman of the Arts Council, if he will not provide them for Members of this House, copies of all the submissions that he has received?

No. I think that that would be even sillier.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts how many applications the Minister for the Arts has had for consideration as an arts body of national significance to be funded outwith local authorities.

Representations have been received from a variety of sources that 12 named performing arts bodies should be added to the list of candidates for central funding in paragraph 8 of the consultation document on the arts. Similar suggestions have also been made for some museum services, but often without naming the particular institutions which would or might be affected.

Does the Minister accept that, by having a national list, one is creating a two-tier system in the arts, and that it will be very difficult for a locally funded theatre, museum or art gallery to compete with one which need look only to his Department for support?

I suppose that in a sense there has always been a central list. There are aspects that the Arts Council supports. My noble Friend has suggested that there are a number of organisations of such importance that we assume that the Arts Council would want to take responsibility for their support. However, there is real point in what the hon. Gentleman says, and that is why we do not want to extend the list too far.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I refer to an earlier question—

Yes, provided that the hon. Member is not seeking to get an extension of Question Time. In other words, it must be a matter for me, not for the Minister.

I am not seeking to get an extension of Question Time, Mr. Speaker, although that would not be a bad idea. My point of order is about the propriety or otherwise of placing in the Library the details of representations that have been made to the Government. In this case, is it not a fact that every organisation that has made representations would be willing—sadly, none has said that it would not — to have its representations deposited——

Order. I must stop the hon. Gentleman because I think that he is doing what I was hoping he would not do. He must, on a point of order, raise a question that I can answer. It is not a matter for me whether documents are placed in the Library, unless they are papers laid by Act and the like.

That is precisely why I am raising the matter with you, Mr. Speaker. You have the care not only of the interests of Members of this House, but of the practice of the Government in relation to. hon. Members. On this occasion, documents which come from the Government — unless, presumably, they are marked "Secret", and these are not—would be appropriate for depositing in the Library. Without those documents being so deposited, the wellbeing of hon. Members will be at stake, in that the information and knowledge that are necessary for Back Benchers on both sides of the House will not be available. I hope that you, will make the necessary representations to the Government on our behalf. You have eyes to see and ears to hear. I should be grateful if you would also have a mouth with which to speak on our behalf and have those documents placed in the Library.

The point that the hon. Member raises is not one for me, unless, as I said, he is referring to documents laid under an Act. If the Government voluntarily decide to place in the Library only a list of representations, that is a matter for them.

Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan), may I remind you, Mr. Speaker, that you look after the welfare and interests of Back Benchers on both sides of the House? Surely a central part of that interest must be the free and unfettered access by Back Benchers to information when they are to be asked to make important decisions arising out of a series of Government consultations.

The hon. Gentleman is aware that I am bound by our Standing Orders. I have only limited powers in this respect, and not over the matter that he raises.