asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the progress of the Cadw: Welsh Historic Monuments initiative on the preservation and promotion of Welsh historic monuments.

Our consultations have produced a generally very positive response. We are proceeding with the recruitment of a director and other senior staff for the new unit.

I thank my right hon. Friend for that positive statement. Would he care to comment on the recent article in The Guardian concerning his attitude to the heritage of Wales? Will he draw Cadw's attention to Flint castle, which was not considered to be in a fit enough state to be shown to the Queen during her recent visit? Will he also draw Cadw's attention to the highly imaginative recommendations of the excellent John Brown report on how to realise the castle's enormous, although as yet untapped, potential?

The Guardian article was widely and grotesquely inaccurate. I hope to provide a detailed response at some stage. I have paid close attention to the preservation of the heritage, and that is one reason why we are establishing this new body. We have increased expenditure on ancient monuments from about £1,100,000 to about £1,900,000. That amount does not cover expenditure on historic buildings. I am aware that considerable improvements can be made to Flint castle. I hope that the new Cadw directorate will follow up the Brown committee's recommendations.

Will the Secretary of State consider whether his Department should make a contribution towards the renovation and development of the site at Ty Mawr Wybrnant, which is associated with Bishop Morgan, the translator of the Bible, in view of the fact that the National Trust intends to improve that property and make it available as a museum?

I shall certainly consider the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. The new body will be equipped to examine and make recommendations on such proposals.

I thank my right hon. Friend for his earlier answer. Will he specifically comment on the allegations in The Guardian article in the context of Bulmore and Caerleon?

We have paid great attention to Caerleon, which is a monument of major importance. We are spending money on one of its most important sites. The allegations in The Guardian about the Bulmore site are wildly inaccurate. The photograph in The Guardian of what purports to be a town wall is, in fact, a minor part of a Roman farm building.

What type of monument will the Government set up for the almost 200,000 unemployed people in Wales, including many youngsters?

Order. That matter does not arise out of this question.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimate he now makes of the current levels of demand and the anticipated annual levels over the next 20 years for housing; and whether current and anticipated levels of building and renovation will meet that demand.

Estimates made in 1982 and based on 1979 material suggested a need for 12,000 new units and the rehabilitation of some 6,500 unfit dwellings per annum up to the end of the century. However, more recent population projections indicate a decline in the forecast number of households over the period. This, together with the outstanding success of our renovation grant initiative, will have considerably affected our earlier projection, and a new assessment is in hand. I shall write to the hon. Gentleman when the results are available.

Is the Under-Secretary of State seriously suggesting that the revised population forecasts will make the expected target substantially lower than 20,000? It is clear that, even with the likely revised figure of household formation and demographic change, year on year we shall still fall very short of the demand for housing in Wales. Are not the Government increasingly building up distress and misery for people seeking housing in Wales?

The hon. Gentleman is taking far too gloomy a view of housing. The figures to which we have both referred relate to the period before the grants boom. He must understand the impact of that boom. Some 40,000 repair grants have been approved. We are currently spending £206 million this year on housing. That compares with £96 million and £140 million, respectively, in each of the last two years.

While a considerable demand for housing must remain, is not the greatest threat and handicap to providing housing rising inflation, which would cause problems for local authorities and private individuals who seek to own their own homes?

My hon. Friend is right. The prime concern of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to ensure that the progress we have made in reducing inflation is maintained. He took a helpful step towards helping the construction industry when he made changes to stamp duty.

Is it not repugnant that housing association starts next year are to be slashed by 33 per cent. — about 1,650 starts? Does that not make a mockery of the capability and capacity of housing associations to provide 6,000 houses a year? Does the Minister know that the Building Employers Confederation in Wales has denounced the position and pointed out that VAT on building will lead not just to less building but to many redundancies in the building trade?

I have already referred to the changes in stamp duty, which are of considerable help to the construction industry. The £41·5 million to be spent next year by the Housing Corporation must be related to £127 million allocated to local authorities. That, together with their capital receipts, will mean a total spend of about £150 million. In addition, we are spending £13·5 million through urban development grants. That will result in priming six private sector schemes involving the building of 563 houses.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many persons who have been employed by the Manpower Services Commission in Wales during the last 12 months for which figures are available on job creation and youth training schemes subsequently secured permanent, full-time employment; and what proportion this represents of the total number of persons who were employed on such schemes during this period.

I regret that the information is not available as yet. The Manpower Services Commission will be undertaking work this year to provide information about placement into jobs in respect of the youth training scheme and the community programme.

Is it not amazing that, with half the year gone for many school leavers who were on these temporary schemes last summer, the Government still have no information as to how placements are going? How can they monitor the success of these schemes without such information? Does the Minister accept that there are over 30,000 young people on temporary schemes provided by the Manpower Services Commission in Wales? When those schemes come to an end, there are no prospects other than the dole for a large proportion of those young people. In those circumstances, is it not disgraceful that the number of places on community schemes provided for north Wales is to be reduced by a substantial proportion between 1984 and 1986?

I must remind the hon. Gentleman and the House that the youth training scheme is new and in its first year. It is not possible for the Manpower Services Commission to monitor it until the results of placements arising from the scheme are known. It would merely be inaccurate information. I must point out that people who have had the benefit of these training schemes are in a much better position to obtain meaningful employment than they would be if they had not had the training.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the information that I have just received from his right hon. Friend, that the Colwyn housing survey conducted by the Manpower Services Commission may be extended beyond the 12 months that was originally fixed as the cut-off date, will give enormous satisfaction in my constituency? It provides a useful precedent for adopting a somewhat more flexible attitude towards this 12-month rule.

That scheme has been approved, and I have noted my hon. Friend's remarks about flexibility in these matters.

If the figures were available, would they not be a source of considerable embarrassment for the Government? Does the Minister accept that there is little prospect of young people who are leaving the schemes getting employment? Does that not give the lie to the claim that they are training schemes, and are they not merely attempts to massage the unemployment figures? Does the hon. Gentleman further accept that, in the absence of jobs at the end of the training schemes, his concern should be about the personal development of young people? Finally, does he agree that that makes the cuts in mode B schemes more tragic?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, coming from where he does, is aware, as I am, of concern in Mid and South Glamorgan. In fact, there is a considerable ceiling there. The relationship between mode A and mode B has been rightly adjusted by the MSC to take account of the characteristics of the area.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the creation of real jobs will be greatly helped by the removal of the national insurance surcharge? Does he further agree that the steps to improve company profitability proposed in the Budget are most important realistic steps in that direction?

I can answer in one word—wholeheartedly.

Does the Minister appreciate that many of our young people are not opting for those schemes because the rates of pay are not good enough? In any case, does he appreciate that there is no substitute for a real job? Does he acknowledge that long-term unemployment still haunts the statistics and that our industrial areas are particularly affected? When will the Government take resolute action over the key problem of unemployment in Wales?

At a time of recession and enormous technical change, we are seeing real action to try to equip youngsters so that they avoid falling into the trap of long-term unemployment. That should meet the hon. Gentleman's points. We are endeavouring, as much as any Government can, to put the matter right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in calculating local authority target expenditures, he will disregard expenditure on industrial development in Wales.

No, Sir.

If, on the one hand, the Secretary of State takes pride in the fact that Sharp is coming to Wrexham and if, on the other, he is prepared to rob Wrexham ratepayers by grant holdback because that borough council gives high priority to spending on industrial development, will he tell us whether he regards himself as a hypocrite?

No, but among the greatest attractions for any company choosing an area are the general levels of taxes and rates in that area. The Welsh Office has given substantial help to the project named by the hon. Gentleman and has assisted in securing that project, which will provide about 600 jobs over the next two or three years for the people of Wrexham.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the recent announcement in the Budget of a reduction in capital allowances to industry will be particularly damaging to small industries in Wales? Will he take steps to mitigate the rigours of rate-capping, on top of those cuts, which will severely affect industry?

I do not agree. I believe that small as well as large companies will benefit from the lower rates of corporation tax that will arise. One of the consequences of the changes in the allowances is that much investment will be brought forward into the next year or two.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that his reply reeks of complacency? Will he not wake up to the terrible unemployment from which Wales is suffering and how local authorities are trying to cope with the social problems arising from it, besides trying to attract new industry? Does he agree that the last thing that the local authorities need at this difficult time is rate-capping?

I hope that the local authorities will not put themselves into a position where the rates have to be capped.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what estimates he has of the number of new derelict land schemes to be started in Wales in 1984–85.

The Welsh Development Agency's estimates for 1984–85 include provision of;£6·5 million for derelict land clearance. £2 million is being held in reserve under the provisions for land and buildings and site preparation in connection with new industrial projects and other demands. This will allow existing contracts to be fulfilled. The number of new starts will depend on the level of resources that become available. If the south Cardiff project is approved for urban development grant, up to £2 million may be spent on land reclamation there.

The right hon. Gentleman's statement is of profound concern to those of us who represent valley communities because he has diverted to the south Glamorgan scheme £2 million that would have been put into the land reclamation programmes in our valley communities? Is he aware that under those proposals it would appear that not one new contract for land reclamation in the valley communities will be signed and, therefore, something that is vital to the attraction of our area will be taken away from us?

The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. The Welsh Development Agency had been planning to spend up to £2 million on the Cardiff site. Because I thought it sensible that the provision should be made under one heading, I transferred that money to urban development grant, but it was money that the WDA would otherwise have had to commit and was planning to commit in that area anyway.

Does the Secretary of State not understand the anger at his decision in some of the valley communities? Is it not wrong to make cuts in colliery closure areas? Is he aware that in Blaenau Gwent, which I visited last Thursday, there are some magnificent examples of land reclamation by the Conservative and previous Labour Governments? Does he agree that we need far more rather than the petty cuts in which he is indulging?

Expenditure on derelict land clearance has been about £10 million a year, and there is scope for expenditure at about that level in the coming year. It is precisely because there is uncertainty about what is needed in respect of colliery closures that £2 million has been put into reserve, so that the WDA can decide on its plans in the light of the demand that falls on it.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the total spent by his Department in the last financial year on support for voluntary sector social service provision.

During 1982–83, the Welsh Office gave grants totalling £2·2 million in support for voluntary sector social service provision.

Will the Minister confirm that funding for opportunities for volunteering in Wales has been reduced from £250,000 in the first year to £90,000 in the second year and that it should be the English equivalent of £300,000 in the corning year, but it has not yet been announced despite the fact that funding for England and Scotland was announced at the end of last year?

I think that the hon. Gentleman is wrong somewhere, especially as only last week we announced that £110,000 was to be made available for that scheme in 1984–85.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of unemployed in Wales at the last available date; and if he will give details of the number of males, females and the number of long-term unemployed together with the corresponding figures for May 1979.

On 9 February 1984, unemployed claimants in Wales, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, totalled 163,500, or 117,600 males and 45,900 females. In May 1979, the estimated figures were 78,200, 56,700 and 21,500, respectively. In January 1984 the number of claimants unemployed for over 52 weeks totalled 67,719. Comparable figures for May 1979 are not available.

I should not like to call the Secretary of State a hypocrite as that would not be allowed in the Chamber, but I can think what I like. I have listened for five years during every Welsh Question Time to the Secretary of State telling us of increases in unemployment. Is he aware that it is high time that he stood up in the Cabinet and demanded action from the Government to safeguard some of the jobs in Wales? Is he further aware that, if the St. John's colliery at Maesteg is closed, unemployment in the Maesteg area will be 43 per cent.? What action will he take to remedy that?

What I know is hypocrisy are the actions of the Labour Government who bewailed unemployment but put a wicked tax on jobs and thereby increased unemployment. We have abolished that tax, thus making about £45 million more available to Welsh industry this year.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the unemployment figures would be much worse if the nightmare occurred and the Labour party had the chance to implement its alternative economic strategy — a strategy than many economists agree would achieve what had hitherto been thought impossible: soaring interest rates, soaring unemployment, soaring inflation and soaring inflation at one and the same time?

That would produce the same kind of disasters that the Labour Government produced—driving away investment and forcing up inflation and unemployment again.

Do the shameful figures that the Secretary of State has been forced to announce to the House show that unemployment is worse now than it was in 1979, and that under him the figures for Wales are far worse than any that Wales has had to contend with since the end of the war? Will he take the first immediate step to deal with the problem by increasing the amount that the Welsh Development Agency can have at its disposal to afford extra industrial development as well as extra expenditure on derelict land clearance? If he wishes to do something concrete immediately to deal with these figures, that is the answer.

More shameful is that the right hon. Gentleman was a member of the Government who imposed this wicked tax on jobs—[Interruption.]—and helped to force up unemployment to its present level. By the removal of that tax this year, we have injected probably £45 million back into Welsh industry for the creation of new jobs.

Would my right hon. Friend care to estimate how many jobs will be saved, created or destroyed by those Labour Members who are supporting the coalminers' strike?

The strike will be gravely damaging to the industry and must have its effect on the number of jobs that it can provide in future.

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Opposition are getting sick and tired of him coming to the House and either putting the blame on the previous Labour Government or saying that things will work out in future? Does he not realise that other small countries have succeeded in keeping unemployment down but that this Government have refused to take the necessary steps, because they prefer to cut expenditure on housing in order to give money to the rich taxpayers of south-east England?

We have built a record number of factories in Wales, got a record number of factory allocations and attracted a record amount of new inward investment from overseas.

These evasive replies will not do. Is not the Secretary of State ashamed that, in a recent Common Market study, industrial south-east Wales is classified in the least prosperous group of Europe's 131 regions? In the five years of the Conservative Government, Wales has been on the receiving end of a social and economic battering not experienced since the 1930s. When can the people of Wales expect the right hon. Gentleman to introduce some decent, honourable policies to end the mass unemployment for which he personally is responsible?

The survey to which the hon. Gentleman refers covered the period during which he was in office and the Labour party was in power.

Order. One of the features of Welsh questions has always been the good-natured exchanges across the Chamber. I hope that we can keep it that way. I remind the House that only one supplementary question should be asked at a time.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied with the progress of enveloping schemes for houses in Wales.

A start has been made. Four enveloping schemes, involving 886 houses, have now been approved and I expect to announce at least two more before the summer. I hope that each of the remaining nine authorities which received supplements for enveloping within their 1984–85 housing allocations will also come forward with projects during the course of the year.

Is my hon. Friend aware that £500,000 has already been made available to the Newport borough council for the Witham/Feering scheme in Newport? Can my hon. Friend confirm that an additional £250,000 will be made available to Newport borough council?

I can confirm that Newport has already been notified of an additional £250,000 for this enveloping scheme.

Did the Minister notice the recent report on housing in Mid-Glamorgan, where death rates are reckoned to be 64 per cent. higher than the national average owing to the deplorable housing there? Does he not feel that a boost for the construction industry is vital rather than to put VAT on home improvement work, which was such a deplorable feature of the recent Budget?

The hon. Gentleman is wrong to attribute the statistics he mentioned simply to housing in Mid-Glamorgan. There are, of course, many deficiencies in the area of that authority and many things that we accept should be put right.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people in Wales are unemployed; how many were unemployed in May 1979; and by what percentage unemployment has increased since May 1979.

On 9 February 1984, unemployed claimants in Wales, seasonally adjusted and excluding school leavers, totalled 163,500 compared with an estimate of 78,200 in May 1979, an increase of 109·1 per cent.

Those figures are very serious and the right hon. Gentleman should be ashamed of them, bearing in mind the human misery that they represent. As nearly 1,000 people are jobless in Connah's Quay in Deeside, out of a total of 8,000 jobless on Deeside, will he confirm that when the pulp paper mill at Shotton comes on stream local labour will be recruited? What news does the right hon. Gentleman have of the Nissan project? Does he expect a decision by the end of this month? Does he join me in praising the Clwyd county authority and its chief executive for the good job that they have done?

United Paper Mills will provide about 270 jobs. That is one of a long series of new projects which will provide substantial employment in the area and which I am sure will be welcome. A decision from the Nissan company is expected within the next few weeks. The hon. Gentleman will know that not only has the Clwyd county council done good work but there has been a united effort to present the attractions of the site by my Department, the Welsh Development Agency and everyone concerned. It is a matter for congratulation that it is one of the final short-listed sites, which says a great deal for the reputation and qualities of the area. Of course, the decision remains with the company.

Will the Secretary of State tell us what representations he made to the Foreign Secretary about the devastating effect on employment in Wales of the recent proposals about dairy farming, bearing in mind that 50 people have already been made redundant at Fulwood and Bland at Ellesmere in Shropshire as a result of those proposals?

The problems facing the community go wider than the very real problems of the dairy industry. As my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is at a meeting in Brussels at this very moment to carry these decisions forward, I cannot add to the full statement that was made during the debate in this House last Thursday.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that anxiety about unemployment is quite as strong on the Government Benches as anywhere else? Is it not a fact that a long period of world recession is now being followed by a period in which there are at least some hopeful signs, and should it not now be our ambition to sell the advantages of Wales to industry and not bemoan the past?

The fact that during the past year we have attracted well over 20 per cent. of the total inward investment coming to the United Kingdom is evidence that foreign companies, at least, understand the remarkable changes that are taking place, even if Opposition Members do not.

Did the Secretary of State see the table in The Times last Friday on comparative regional GDP per head, which showed that Wales is now bottom of the regional wealth league in the country — with the exception, of course, of Northern Ireland? Will he bear in mind those awful figures in forming his employment and social policies?

I did not see the figures. It is precisely because we realise the problems that have been inherited over several generations in Wales that we have been taking such energetic action to improve the infrastructure, construct the factories that are needed and produce record training programmes, so that we have a skilled work force that is ready to exploit the opportunities that exist.

In contrast to the Opposition, my right hon. Friend has often mentioned the new jobs that are being created in Wales. Will he say how many jobs would have been lost in Wales if the Labour party's policy of withdrawal from the Common Market had been put into effect?

What I do know is that the considerable number of major new inward investment projects that we have obtained, of which Sharp is the most recent, could not, and would not, have been obtained if we had been outside the Community.

Will the right hon. Gentleman now answer the question that I put to him before, which he was apparently unwilling to answer? Does he not agree that the most immediate way in which he could help to deal with these terrible figures would be to increase the amount of money allocated to the Welsh Development Agency? Will he take urgent steps to ensure that that happens?

No, Sir. I do not agree that that is the most important way. The most important way is to continue the economic measures that will assist the general industrial recovery that is taking place and to reduce the tax and other financial burdens that the Government of which he was a member loaded on to the back of Welsh industry.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the figure for youth unemployment in Wales at the latest available date.

On 9 February 1984 there were 5,847 unemployed school leaver claimants in Wales.

When will the Secretary of State come to realise that our young people are now living in a land of no hope because the Government's monetarist policies have killed off so many jobs in Wales? Whereas the Budget sent the Stock Exchange through the roof, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that by this time next year unemployment both in Wales and in the country as a whole will be even higher than today?

The hon. Gentleman should welcome the fact that such a high proportion of school leavers who left school last year have found employment or a place on one of the special schemes. He should also welcome the fact that the figures this February are substantially lower than at the same time last year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales on what date he intends meeting the regional director of the National Coal Board in South Wales to discuss the level of new investment in the coal industry in South Wales; and if he will make a statement.

I and my Department have regular contact with the director about a wide range of aspects of the coal industry in South Wales, but I have no plans at the present time for a meeting with him to discuss investment.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the solution to the present problems in the mining industry in South Wales would be a positive commitment on investment by the NCB and the Government? In view of that need, will he take up with Mr. Philip Weeks his remarks published in the new Neath Independent newspaper that he could not confirm investment in the Glyn Castle project, which is seen by the NUM as an important development in respect of the anthracite area, which is threatened with further pit closures? Will he have another meeting with him and talk about that?

Clearly, investment decisions are for the board to take. At present it is unlikely that the board will be able to give those decisions the priority that perhaps they should have. The sooner people get back to work, the sooner we can get on with planning and producing future investment.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is a sad day for the coal industry in South Wales? With the result of the voting of South Wales miners' lodges, good pits being picketed out by the actions of a militant minority, and the posters that we see around, does he agree that we cannot help but feel sympathy with the miners in wishing them victory in their battle against Arthur Scargill?

I am sure that all hon. Members would agree that anyone who wishes to go to work should be allowed to and should not be impeded by others.

Would it not be advantageous to the coal industry in Wales if we had a common energy policy within the EEC?

That does not arise from this question.

Is it not true that of the 48 hi-tech faces in the United Kingdom only one exists in South Wales? Why is the right hon. Gentleman so lukewarm and faint-hearted about the need for new anthracite and coking coal pits in South Wales?

Because those are decisions that should rightly be taken by the NCB.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest available figures for adult unemployment in Mid-Glamorgan.

On 9 February 1984 adult unemployment claimants in Mid-Glamorgan totalled 32,444.

Does the Secretary of State accept that those figures are truly appalling? Does he recognise that employment opportunities in Mid-Glamorgan on many occasions rest on developments in South Glamorgan? In the light of the recent announcement that Nissan will not be coming to South Wales, does he recognise that the shortfall of £4 million, in South Wales, because of the lack of special development area status, was a major factor in that decision? Does he further accept that the White Paper, which will reduce regional aid in scope and nature in South Wales, will have long-term detrimental effects on inward investment?

I do not agree that that was the major factor which influenced Nissan's decision. There were problems over the South Wales sites. Consultations on the future of regional policy are under way and no decisions have been taken about the extent or scale of aid to South Wales in future.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by how much expenditure, in constant prices, per school pupil is forecast to have risen in 1983–84 compared with 1978–79 at (a) primary school level, and (b) secondary school level in Wales.

The provisional figure for expenditure per primary pupil in 1982–83 is £714. It is estimated that expenditure per primary and secondary pupil between 1978–79 and 1983–84 will have increased by 10 and 6 per cent. respectively after appropriate allowance is made for pay and price changes as they affect local authority expenditure.

Does my hon. Friend think that those increases in expenditure have resulted in an improvement in education in Welsh schools?

Yes. My hon. Friend is right, by implication. The figures make nonsense of the alarmist claims of Opposition Members that we have made heavy cuts in expenditure on schools.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is disappointing that, despite all the money that has been spent on education since the war, so many people are wholly or functionally illiterate? Will he comment on what I said in the recent Welsh debate about low teacher expectation in this regard?

Money, like the pupil-teacher ratio, is only one of the criteria involved. I take the point made by my hon. Friend. I know of his concern in these matters and I share it, because under-achievement is one of the problems with which we have to grapple.

Will the Minister of State come off the fence for a change and acknowledge the importance to the community of village schools in Wales? Will he stop hiding behind the county councils whenever he is asked about village schools?

I never hide behind the county councils. I think that the hon. Gentleman meant to refer to local education authorities. They have to make many difficult decisions and I would ask them to keep thriving village schools whenever possible, but authorities have to take into account the need for economies and the best use of resources. The ultimate decisions will always be based on the educational advantage for the children concerned.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the present estimated date for completion of the dualling of the A55 road from the English border to Bangor.

The provisional programme envisages the substantial completion of the A55 improvement by the end of the decade. This is subject, of course, to satisfactory progress with statutory procedures and engineering design.

May I take it from that reply that there is no substance in reports from the CBI that serious delays have crept in on two sections on the road?

I do not underestimate the difficult engineering problems of sections of the overall plan. But serious delays? I would say no.

Will the Minister confirm that the date given by his predecessor, Mr. Michael Roberts, was mid-1987? Will he also confirm that money has been sucked into the scheme from other trunk road schemes in north Wales, resulting in projects such as the Felinheli bypass being left in abeyance indefinitely, so that a severe traffic problem has arisen in that village?

I do not underestimate the difficulties. But serious slippage? I would say no. The allocation of resources is always hard, particularly when difficult engineering problems are involved.

Will my hon. Friend give the estimated starting and completion dates for two stretches of the A55—the proposed Northop and Holywell bypasses?

I think that the correct answer is late 1984, but I had better write to my hon. Friend about the details of those schemes.

As one of the Minister of State's predecessors, I may be able to help him. I think that that answer was wrong. Can the hon. Gentleman tell me when the Hawarden bypass will be completed—I think that it should be this year—how much it will cost and how long it is? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when the bypass is opened the industrial attraction of the area will be greatly enhanced?

I would agree on the latter point. On the details, I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his helpful suggestion, but I shall write to him, too.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in reducing the staff of the Welsh Office since May 1979; and how much reduction has been achieved, both absolutely and in percentage terms, in numbers in Welsh local government over the same period.

Between April 1979 and March 1984, the number of Welsh Office staff has been reduced from 2,613 to 2,185, a reduction of 16·3 per cent. This compares with a fall of 4·8 per cent. in the local government sector, where manpower, excluding the law and order services, has declined, in full-time equivalent terms, from about 119,800 in June 1979 to about 114,000 at December 1983, the latest date for which information is available.

While I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his very good progress with the Welsh Office, is it not time to call a conference with the Association of Welsh Authorities to review the very disappointing progress on its side of the picture?

I do not think that it is necessary to call a special conference, because I discuss this matter with the Welsh local authorities at my regular meetings with them. They must understand that, if they had been able to make even quite modest reductions over and above what has been achieved, there would be substantially lower rate burdens than there now are.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the Church Commissioners' attitude towards the principle of the sharing of the use of redundant churches with other Christian denominations

The commissioners regard the appropriation of a redundant Anglican church for use for worship by another Christian denomination as the most suitable alternative use. Since the pastoral measure came into operation in 1969, the future of 68 redundant churches has been settled in this way.

I thank my hon. Friend for that admirable reply. It adds further to the ecumenical spirit that pervades the Christian Church in the country and, I hope, in the House.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is paid in pensions and emoluments to widows of clergymen by the Church Commissioners.

The clergy pensions scheme, which is non-contributory, provides that a widow receives half the pension entitlement of her husband. In the case of full service, this comes to £1,925 a year from 1 April 1984. She will also be eligible for an additional augmentation grant if her total income is below £3,350 a year.

Does my hon. Friend agree that these widows also need help with housing, and will he consider whether it is possible to give that help? Does he agree that they give devoted, unpaid help in parishes, as hon. Members' wives give in constituencies? Can my hon. Friend tell the House whether the bishops have plans for further excommunications, such as the one we witnessed recently?

Order. That has nothing to do with the question.

I shall, therefore, deal only with the first half of the question. Yes, Sir, the devoted work of wives of the clergy is widely recognised and deeply appreciated in the Church. The Church intends progressively to improve housing and pension provisions for them. That is why we must take such care of our assets, because money for this worthy cause comes only from them.

Do not the divorced wives of clergy have a moral right to share in retirement and widows' pensions?

I know that the hon. Gentleman has taken a keen interest in that point. He gave helpful evidence to an inquiry on the matter headed by the Bishop of St. Edmundsbury and Ipswich. Perhaps he will allow me to await the outcome of the inquiry before giving him an answer.

Will the hon. Gentleman refrain from acting like a ridiculous Trollope figure from "Barchester Towers" and consider seriously the hardships suffered by the widows of the clergy? Does he understand that they are in an exceptionally difficult position, because on the death of the clergyman they lose not only a husband but a home, and the present pension arrangements are wholly inadequate?

I would be sorry if complacency were read into my reply to the second half of the question. The Church is conscious of the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, which is why year by year we seek to improve the provisions. In answer to the first half of his question, I will try not to ape the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether the Minister for the Arts has any plans for altering the structure of the Arts Council of Great Britain and its relationship with regional arts associations.

My noble Friend awaits with interest the views of the Arts Council following its review of arts development strategy, which will no doubt encompass questions of structure.

On the question of the regional arts associations, will the Under-Secretary take the opportunity now to deny rumours in the press this weekend that the price for improving the financial position of the regions, which he knows that I support, will be the removal of grant from the Royal Court, the Riverside studios, the Hayward gallery and the Arts Council's literary department? Does he not agree that such a price would be totally unacceptable and an act of artistic vandalism?

The report has not been received yet, so it would be premature to comment on rumours. In so far as the Arts Council, within a budget which, over the years, has increased, is trying to find room to fund new developments, it must be right that it should look at diminishing resources for some other parts of its empire. This seems to me inevitable.

Does my hon. Friend agree that, when the metropolitan counties cease to exist, most of the current sponsorship role of the metropolitan counties will be taken over by the metropolitan districts, but there will be a residual and enhanced role for regional arts associations?

My noble Friend has made it clear that he believes that there is a role for the Arts Council and the regional arts associations in taking some of the strain, but it is obviously very important for the district councils to play a full role, and some of them have made it clear that they are willing to do so.

On that point, does the Minister feel that regional arts associations are vested with sufficient power to do the work which will doubtless be theirs after the abolition?

It is exactly at that kind of question that the Arts Council review is looking, as I understand it. We have not yet received the report, but obviously, if there is an enhanced role, the whole structure must be looked at.

On the question of the balance between the regions and London, will my hon. Friend remind the Arts Council that the live arts require audiences, that audiences require population catchment areas from which to draw, and so the arts naturally tend to be centred on large centres of population, in particular on very large cities, and that any attempt to militate against that will be damaging to the arts?

I have noticed, since I have been carrying out the function of arts spokesman, that there is strong pressure on the regions. This is part of the circle that the chairman of the Arts Council has to square. One has to set against what my hon. Friend has said, which is true, the fact that the capital has very great resources of its own.

As it is now crystal clear that the arts throughout Great Britain are facing potential disaster, would it not be advisable for the Government to look again at their negative and shallow response to the report of the Committee on Education, Science and Arts entitled "Public and Private Funding of the Arts", which called for substantial increases in the level of public spending on the arts, long-tenn planning of the arts development, and for a Minister for the Arts with much wider responsibilities, greater power and greater knowledge than the present one?

I refute the allegation that the arts are facing disaster. There is no question of that. The arts are facing change in some respects, but the handling of that change will be such as to avoid disaster.

Would not the Arts Council have much more money to spend on regional arts if it moved out of its luxurious and expensive premises in Piccadilly?

That is a matter for the Arts Council. I am sure that it pays great attention to its overhead costs.

If the Minister thinks that the arts are not in crisis, he is about the only person in Britain who does. The Arts Council, the local authorities, the regional associations and Lord Goodman recognise the desperate position of the arts. Is not the reason for that the Government's function of cutting back on arts expenditure, with the exception of opera—which means that the rest receive grants that are not in line with inflation—and their twofold attack on local authorities through abolition or rate-capping? In that context, how can we save the arts?

In the 20 or so years that I have taken an interest in politics the message has always been the same, although resources have steadily increased. A rather good article was featured in The Guardian last week which showed how increases in expenditure on the arts since the war have done nothing to diminish the cries of crisis. We must moderate our language.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts, in the event of abolition of the Greater London Council what level of control the Minister for the Arts will exercise over existing and future developments of arts facilities on the south bank.

My noble Friend is currently considering this and other matters in the light of the many views and suggestions put to him during the consultation period.

Will the Under-Secretary explain how the south bank can be run along commercially viable lines—the words used in the consultative document—in the light of the suggested change by the Arts Council in relation to the Hayward gallery? What will happen to the Hayward gallery, which is an integral part of the south bank?

The consultation paper made it quite clear that there may be a role for the Arts Council in funding functions on the south bank.

How much longer will we have to wait for a statement on the Government's response to the consultative paper, in the event of the GLC and the metropolitan counties being abolished?

I sympathise with my hon. Friend. The uncertainties create problems for the arts and must be diminished as soon as possible. I shall bring my noble Friend's attention to the urgency of the matter.

asked the Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if the Minister for the Arts is satisfied with the Government incentives available to encourage individuals and companies to support the arts.

Substantial incentives, in the form of tax reliefs, already exist, but my noble Friend is always looking for new ways of encouraging a higher level of business sponsorship and private support for the arts.

Is my hon. Friend aware that business sponsorship for the arts has increased and that last year it was about £13·5 million? Does he accept that that is only at about an eighth of the level of Government funding via the Arts Council? If my hon. Friend thinks that the tax incentives are sufficient, will he and his colleagues try to encourage a greater take-up by companies and individuals?

I accept what my hon. Friend says. My noble Friend the Minister for the Arts tries to do what he can. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has taken various measures to cut income and capital tax rates. We believe in the freedom of individuals to do valuable things with their money, including sponsorship of the arts. I hope that people will respond.

Is the Under-Secretary aware that, in addition to the report by the Select Committee, this week the Committee is considering an urgent report as a result of the hundreds of representations from the arts world? Is the Minister aware that his complacent attitude to money is worrying the whole arts world? His attitude is that all the worries are unfounded and that everything will go well.

I do not accept that. All will be well only in so far as intelligent and sensible decisions are taken. Obviously, any change in the status quo is worrying for those who depend upon it. It is not impossible to see the arts through a period of transition if the right decisions are taken.

If my hon. Friend is really looking for new ideas, will he draw the Minister's attention to the Select Committee report to which reference has already been made? Is he aware that plenty of excellent new ideas are endorsed unanimously by the members of that Select Committee but that the Government's reply is far short of perfection?

I am aware that the Government's response did not go as far as my hon. Friend would have liked. However, I have no doubt that many of the recommendations will remain on the table for discussion in the years ahead.

How do the Government see the financial future of the Royal Court theatre?

The funding of the Royal Court theatre by the Arts Council must be a matter for the council. If Ministers are to answer from the Dispatch Box for the arm's length funding of the council, the principle of arts funding is at an end.

If the present proposals are proceeded with and the Royal Court theatre loses its national subsidy and the Tory borough of Kensington and Chelsea ceases to fund it, the national theatre of the alternative, the new, the potential, may be condemned. Surely the Minister will at least comment upon that.

It would be wrong of me to answer directly for the decisions of the Arts Council. It would be even sillier of me to answer for direct decisions of the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea.