asked the Secretary of State for Wales what has been the number of road accidents on motorways and trunk roads in Wales in each year since 1981; and what is his strategy for reducing their incidence.

The available information relates solely to accidents that caused death and personal injury. The figures are as follows: 1981, 2,041; 1982, 1,998; and 1983, 1,972. The trunk road improvement programme is the chief means of reducing road accidents. In addition, we are encouraging better road safety education and training.

It is good to know that the accident statistics have been decreasing each year. Is my hon. Friend aware that there is strong Welsh approval for the high priority that Ministers give to trunk road improvements, because they mean improved driving safety and contribute to a stronger Welsh economy?

I agree with my hon. Friend. Expenditure on new construction, improvement and maintenance of trunk roads and motorways in Wales is an important part of that strategy.

Does the Minister believe that police time is being used to the best effect in view of the findings of the Gifford report, which was published in Wales today, and the serious allegations made against the police? Will the hon. Gentleman press the Home Secretary for an official inquiry into these allegations?

I have taken careful note of the point. I have looked at the press reports and shall give further consideration to the matter.

Does my hon. Friend agree that road construction is not the only answer to the problem? Will he, in co-operation with the Secretary of State for Transport, take account of the fact that all over the world lower speed limits than in Britain are implemented, leading to a marked decrease in serious accidents? I hope that my hon. Friend will look at that matter.

I shall certainly give consideration to my hon. Friend's point. In addition, we attach great importance to better road safety education and training. I shall look carefully at my hon. Friend's point about speed limits.

On the matter of better education and training, is the Minister aware that there are misgivings in some parts of Wales because insufficient literature is available for schools, especially where the Welsh language is the normal vehicle of education? Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied with the current provisions for this education by the Welsh Office? Should not the Welsh Office be giving a greater lead to the counties in this respect?

The Welsh Office provides considerable funds towards the cost of the road safety activities of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents in Wales. Those activities place a special emphasis on children's safety and make special provision for the disabled. We are contributing to the society's road safety exhibition at the Royal Welsh show. I have taken note of the hon. Gentleman's point about Welsh language provision and will look carefully into that aspect.

Assuming the direct relationship between driver fatigue and motorway accidents, what are the Minister's plans to improve motorway service facilities within the 80-odd miles of the M4 west of the Severn bridge?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that, through no one's fault, certain difficulties have arisen. We shall try to sort matters out as rapidly, as possible. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, there have been considerable improvements in facilities as, for example, at Pont Abraham in his constituency.

How can the Government be so complacent about the vital matter of road maintenance when there are such persistent complaints from individuals and motoring organisations? Is it not yet another example of the Government's penny wise, pound foolish strategy, which is impairing economic efficiency as well as endangering life?

Of course that does not relate directly to the question, which is about motorways and trunk roads. I believe that the hon. Gentleman is referring to road maintenance generally. I assure him that there is no complacency about that matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of people were registered as unemployed in Wales under 25 years of age in April 1980 and April 1984, respectively.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what are the most recent figures for the number of people aged under 25 years in Wales who are out of work; and how this compares with the figures of 12 months earlier.

The latest information relates to April, when there were 67,085 unemployed claimants under 25 years of age in Wales, a percentage of 39·5. The figure for 1983 was 70,041. Comparable figures for April 1980 are not available.

In April 1980, 17 per cent. of those 'who were unemployed under the age of 25 had been unemployed for more than one year. The equivalent figure in April 1984 was 31 per cent. Will the Secretary of State therefore follow the example of his counterpart in the Scottish Office and introduce a youth enterprise fund, which he has set up at the cost of about £400,000 to encourage youngsters between the ages of 16 and 25 to set up in their own businesses?

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will at least welcome the fact that recently there has been some reduction in this sector of unemployment. We have, as he is aware, a wide range of schemes to assist the development of new businesses and enterprise schemes generally. I do not believe that that age group is neglected in that respect. I shall certainly consider whether there is any lesson to be learnt from the Scottish experience that we could extend to Wales. We always seek to see whether we can learn from these experiments in different parts of the country.

Does the Secretary of State feel, in view of the tremendous emphasis placed 12 months ago on getting young people into the new scheme which the Manpower Services Commission was developing, that this comparison shows a bleak prospect, and that by September it is likely that a large number of young people under 25 will have come off MSC schemes with no jobs in prospect? Can he not announce a new initiative?

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that the youth training scheme is still new. If one considers some of the other schemes, one sees that about 50 per cent. of the entrants of the commmunity programme fall into that category. We have a wide range of schemes. It is striking, in all the factories that I have visited during the past three or four weeks, such as AB electronics, which is currently taking on more than 1,000 new people, and British Telecom, which is producing new products, how many young people are being taken on to work in the new technologies. That is much more important in the long run than any new schemes we can introduce, and it is the best prospect for the future.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the MSC survey of youth training scheme leavers published in April, showing over 40 per cent. of them in work, illustrates the success of the scheme and is a tremendous tribute to those running it? Does he agree also that it completely refutes the shameful and shoddy attack on the scheme by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones), who said that thousands of youngsters in Wales were being conned into fraudulent schemes for which no real jobs exist?

I am sure that anyone who has studied these schemes will realise their value. I should like to join in paying tribute to those from the trade unions, industry, local government and the voluntary sector who are making them such a success. I agree with my hon. Friend.

Before the Secretary of State gets carried away, with the help of his boys from behind, to the position where he says that there is probably no unemployment in Wales, will he say what practical steps he is taking about the continually rising unemployment figures?

A range of measures are in operation, through the Welsh Development Agency, in conjunction with other Government organisations. I could spell out at great length, but you would bring me up short, Mr. Speaker, the record levels of new factory applications and SFA applications, as well as many new projects and inward investment programmes. They will all provide jobs for the future.

Will the Minister undertake to read a very sobering report from Clwyd's principal careers officer, who expressed his fears last week that as many as 1,250 youngsters will return to the dole queue after their youth training scheme courses? Does the Minister comprehend that, with 23,000 Clwyd citizens jobless, the long-term unemployment figures are higher than 40 per cent.? We are very grateful for the contribution of the youth training scheme, but parents in Clwyd very much wish their youngsters to have real jobs.

Yes, I shall read the report. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we are looking for real jobs. That is why I very much welcome the employment provided by a range of new companies, of which Sharp is probably the most spectacular in that part of Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in secondary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available; and what was the figure in 1979–80, at constant prices.

At November 1982 prices the figures are £925 and £900 respectively.

Do not those figures show that there has been a satisfactory increase in the resources devoted to the education of each pupil in secondary schools in Wales since the Government took office? Is my hon. Friend satisfied that that fact is sufficiently well publicised?

I am certainly not satisfied that the figures are well enough publicised. They make nonsense of the alarmist claims of Opposition Members that we have made heavy cuts in expenditure on schools.

Are not the figures that we have been given being used as a cosmetic to hide the reduction in expenditure on education in Wales? Does the Minister accept that the apparent improvement of which he has told us comes about only because of falling rolls, and that we have tremendous problems in our secondary schools in Wales, where teachers are preparing their young people for life after school? The Government are following an economic policy which makes such a task that much more difficult, and does the Minister accept that if teachers and education authorities, who are struggling with a very difficult task, are to be successful they need many more resources than they have at present?

The short answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is no, Sir. I accept none of his propositions. I am not saying that the position is not difficult, but with proper management of resources it will be possible to make adequate educational provision as well as to improve standards.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he intends to meet the chairman of the National Coal Board to discuss the effects in Wales of the miners' strike.

I have no immediate plans to do so.

We well understand the reply that we get continually from the Secretary of State for Wales. Does he not share the Prime Minister's view, expressed at Porthcawl on Saturday, that for all our sakes the miners' strike should be over soon? What input is the right hon. Gentleman giving to get the two sides together? Does he not appreciate that the strike is affecting the economy of Wales and is a further threat to the Welsh steel industry? When the Prime Minister left that conference she had egg on her face, thrown not by miners but by farmers, the supporters of the Government. Why were the farmers' wives not arrested, as they would have been had they been miners?

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has come round to recognising that the strike is damaging jobs in the coal industry as well as threatening them in steel and on the railways. I hope that he will join in condemning those in his party, including his Deputy Leader, who are going out of their way to encourage this damaging strike.

In view of the evident demonic determination of the leadership of the National Union of Mineworkers to destroy not only their industry but the steel industry and, come to that, the railway industry, as revealed by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Powell), does my right hon. Friend think that the mere passage of time will suffice to bring the leaders of the union to their senses?

I do not intend to speculate, but it is clear that many in the coal industry and other industries recognise fully the damaging consequences of this political strike, and hope that it will end soon.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that all of us in the Opposition understand that if the Government had done their job the strike need never have happened? Is he a member of the ministerial team that discusses the Government's attitude to the strike? At those meetings, has he discussed and supported the proposal made the other day by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Pendarth (Mr. Callaghan) for a mediator to be appointed to see whether the strike can be ended?

What I do know is that the Labour Governments, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, closed far more pits in Britain, and in Wales, than this Government have ever closed. Unlike the right hon. Gentleman, I do not intend to disclose what goes on in the Cabinet or Cabinet Committees.

As it now seems that Mr. Scargill is bent on destroying the steel as well as the coal industry, has my right hon. Friend seen the article in this morning's edition of the Western Mail, which states that Ravenscraig would be in the best position if a choice had to be made between Ravenscraig, Port Talbot and Llanwern?

I believe that the steel workers of Llanwern and Port Talbot, by their actions, have made their plants very competitive and efficient, and deserve to succeed. It would be tragic if the actions of Mr. Scargill and his cohorts, encouraged by the Labour Benches, put those plants at risk.

Is the Secretary of State aware that probably well over half the country places responsibility for the coal miners' strike fairly and squarely on the Government? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us how much extra the people of Wales have had to pay through their rates because of the police operations which have supposedly been necessary during the strike?

I do not have the figures. However, I know that they are nothing like as much as the people of Wales have had to pay to keep uneconomic pits going, and which industry generally has had to pay. It makes sense for this country to produce coal and fuel economically so that we may be competitive and succeed in the world economy.

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of my constituents worked in the Llanwern steel works before the 1980 steel strike, but that fewer of them now do so as a result of that strike? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that if the coal industry strike goes on, none will probably do so?

Of course, strikes such as this always destroy jobs not only in the strikers' own industry but in the other related industries. That is the tragedy of this strike, which is why we must hope that those who are apparently determined to continue will have second thoughts.

As the NUM seems to be the only body in Wales that is fighting for jobs, and as the Secretary of State obviously evaded the question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot), will he take this second opportunity and answer my right hon. Friend's question rather than duck it as he so obviously did?

I have already answered the question by the right hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Mr. Foot).

The right hon. Gentleman has not.

I do not intend to answer it a second time.

It is a tragedy that the Welsh economy—and, indeed, the British economy—is suffering so greatly because of the strike. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not for the rank and file politicians to settle the dispute but for those who work and are involved in the industry to do so?

It would be sensible if people sat down and discussed the great future that is available to this industry, which has been backed by record investment by the Government. It is tragic that that investment is being wasted and that the future of the industry is being put at risk by those who are not seeking to save jobs but are destroying them.

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that neither he nor the Prime Minister should wash their hands of the dispute, but should organise an urgent, decisive intervention? Will the right hon. Gentleman, for the third time of asking, answer the question? Is he a member of the ministerial Committee handling the dispute?

The most decisive intervention is being provided by miners in the hon. Gentleman's area of Wales. I am glad that an increasing number of miners are at work at Point of Ayr. The way to settle the dispute is for the miners to go back to work.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now make a detailed statement on the arrangements for dealing with special hardship cases in Wales resulting from the European Economic Community milk quota scheme.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what progress has been made in completing arrangements for dealing with cases of hardship arising from the milk quota scheme of the European Economic Community.

Milk producers have now been informed of the categories of special cases that will be considered for award of additional quota. Further details in the form of regulations will be laid before the House as soon as possible. We have also introduced an outgoers scheme to assist smaller producers. It is hoped to announce detailed arrangements for the scheme at the end of July.

It is now almost three months since the milk quota scheme was announced, yet its details are dribbling out with agonising slowness for the farming community. Will my right hon. Friend tell me when the producer-retailers will receive a provisional quota? At present they are completely in the dark. When will the outgoers scheme begin? Will he assure us that if it does not release sufficient extra quota for the small 40-cow dairy farmer, it will be extended?

On 20 June we wrote to producers giving guidance about the arrangements for direct sales. I hope that it will be possible to lay before the House the necessary order for the main quota scheme within the next week. I have already said that we hope to announce detailed arrangements for the outgoers scheme at the end of this month.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that some of the worst difficulties have arisen not because of the change of policy but because of its suddeness? When he considers the matter, will he pay special attention to the difficulties of those who, encouraged by Ministers, expanded their business with bank overdrafts or other forms of credit and who are now in a tricky position?

It is because the problems of expanders have been recognised that a main aim of the quota scheme is to help them. That category is covered. I hope that the leavers scheme that I announced will assist those in that position. We recognise the difficulties that many producers face in making this adjustment.

Will the Secretary of State assure the House that Welsh dairy farmers will be adequately compensated for lost business caused by this Government's agricultural policy?

Clearly, the leavers scheme, which I have described, will be of particular value to Wales because of its emphasis on the small 40-cow unit. That will be of great benefit. The hon. Gentleman talked about the policy of "this Government", but I agree with the Farmers Weekly, which on 8 June pointed out that the other parties were the severest critics of EC overspending. It said that they would have attacked the absence of a dairy surplus control policy with the same gleeful venom that they display against its implementation, and that they do not suggest an alternative lifeline to dairy farmers, but argue loudly and often incoherently that they seek to give the impression that they are.

Does the Secretary of State accept that there is a glaring inconsistency in the Government's handling of the dairy industry? During the past three or four years small dairy farmers have been encouraged to embark on the farm and horticultural development scheme, but under the the new proposals many of those farmers who have committed themselves to many thousands of pounds of capital investment face cuts of 9 per cent. Will the Secretary of State say specifically when those farmers will be told whether they are special cases, and if they are, by how much the quota will be extended? Will he assure us that if that information is not available by the end of the summer the Government will accept responsibility for paying the super levy, to allow an even period of transition for the farmers who are most directly affected?

I have already said that we hope to lay the necessary parliamentary order within about a week, although it must then pass through the House. Therefore, it is unlikely that applications under the quota allocations scheme will be received before the middle of July. I am as anxious as is the hon. Gentleman that we should then deal with the applications as quickly as possible, and we are ready to set up the panel system as soon as possible. It is extremely important that people should have the fullest information before September, when the first tranche of levy becomes payable, although the payment is not due until about the middle of the following November.

Can my right hon. Friend guarantee that there will be no further large cuts in quotas in subsequent years so that dairy farmers, having absorbed the present blow with great difficulty, can plan with confidence for the future?

My hon. Friend knows that another 1 per cent. cut is built into the present arrangements, which were phased over two years. I cannot go beyond the agreement that has been reached.

Is the Secretary of State aware of the grave uncertainty at present, with banks putting pressure on farmers who do not yet know their quotas? In those circumstances, will he now give an assurance that no farmer who, during the past couple of years, increased his milk output on the advice and with the agreement of Ministry officials will be allowed to go to the wall?

The people whom the hon. Gentleman described are those from whom we shall expect applications under the quota scheme. Until we know the number of applications and the amounts involved we cannot say whether they will come within the 2·5 per cent. that has been set aside under the rules of the agreement reached in Brussels. I take the opportunity of saying publicly what I have said to many banks privately: as we shall be laying the orders soon and operating the scheme as quickly as possible, I hope that they will not press too precipitately those customers who are still not fully aware of their position.

As it has been revealed that Southern Irish milk producers cannot produce enough milk to take up the quota allocations for the Republic of Ireland, will it be in order for Welsh producers, as distinct from the Milk Marketing Board, to export milk to the Republic?

I have no evidence that Europe will ever return to having no substantial surpluses, and we must consider this matter on a Europe-wide basis.

Is it not time that the Government paid less attention to the better-off farmers, who have waxed fat for so long, and instead paid more attention to the less well-off farmers, so many of whom are in Wales and who are suffering badly as a result of the new quota system? Why is there no parity in this Common Market arrangement? Why should Eire have such a good deal? Is there not also a need for a bit of chwarae teg for Welsh farmers?

It is precisely because I agree with the hon. Gentleman, at least on the fact that smaller farmers are especially important for Wales, that we have introduced a scheme that will be of special benefit to those with 40 cows or fewer. They should be the first priority in the reallocation of quota.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many unemployed people under 18 years of age there were in Mid-Glamorgan and Wales, respectively, at the latest available date.

The latest information available relates to April 1984, when in Mid-Glamorgan there were 1,711 unemployed claimants under 18 years of age and in Wales there were 8,096.

Is the Secretary of State aware of a reply that I received from the Home Secretary on 4 June about the increase in convictions of youngsters aged under 18 for drug-related offences? Is he aware that in Wales there has been a 100 per cent. increase in convictions of youngsters aged under 18 since 1979? Does he accept that there must be a direct correlation between the increase in unemployment and the increase in drug abuse? Does he recognise that during the past 12 months four youngsters have died tragically as a result of solvent abuse? Will he undertake to establish an independent inquiry to examine the correlation between unemployment and the lack of prospects for young people and the incidence of drug and solvent abuse? If and when that inquiry shows that correlation, will he agree to take the necessary economic and social measures to deal with the problem?

I do not accept that there is a direct correlation, but, in so far as there is any relationship, I am sure the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that over the past year unemployment among the under-18 age group in Wales has fallen by a third and that in Mid-Glamorgan unemployment among the under-18 age group has fallen by almost a half.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the level of unfilled vacancies in Welsh jobcentres in March, the highest for any March since 1980, is yet another strong pointer to the economic recovery taking place? Does he also agree that in Clwyd, where the number of unfilled vacancies increased by nearly 50 per cent.——

Order. This question is about Mid-Glamorgan.

I agree with what my hon. Friend says about the signs of the economic recovery. It is amply borne out by the CBI's monthly trend survey published only this morning.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people, unadjusted and inclusive of school leavers, are unemployed in Wales; and by what percentage unemployment has increased since May 1979.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer that I gave him on 4 June.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For the convenience of the House, will the right hon. Gentleman, courteously, give us the answer in detail, as he usually does? Is he not evading the question?

Order. The Secretary of State does what he wishes in this matter.

Give us the figures.

Mr. Ian Grist, No. 11.

rose——[Interruption.]

Order. The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) did not have a reply. I have no reason to think that the Secretary of State would give any other reply. I have called Mr. Grist.

rose——

Order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I had a supplementary question which I had hoped to ask.

The question was from the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has not given us the figures which, traditionally in this honourable House, all Secretaries of State have been prepared to come before us to give. We have witnessed a form of parliamentary cowardice. The right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to give the shameful figures for which he knows he has responsibility. Will you, Mr. Speaker, give the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity to give the figures?

Order. I can see that the Secretary of State wishes to respond.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Naturally, I assumed that the hon. Gentleman would remember the figures that I gave him only three weeks ago. If he has such an appallingly bad memory and pays so little attention, I shall give the figures willingly now, if that is in order. The figures for May 1979 and May 1984 are 77,177 and 168,799 respectively—an increase of 118·7 per cent. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has such a bad memory.

I had called the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Grist), but I now propose to call the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) to ask a supplementary to his question No. 9.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Clearly the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to give those despairing, shameful and serious figures. Will he concede that he could give hope to the unemployed of Wales if he were to announce the urgent building of a second crossing of the Severn, if he initiated a massive housing drive, if he enlarged the Welsh Development Agency's budget, and if new anthracite and coking coal mines were to be opened? Surely the right hon. Gentleman will concede, given the wretched and miserable figures which he wished to hide from the honourable House, that the people of Wales urgently need a change of policy.

I find it absolutely amazing that the hon. Gentleman is so slow on his feet and that his memory is so bad that he gives such a disastrous performance from the Opposition Front Bench. What will provide jobs for the future are the large number of new companies that are setting up in Wales, many in the hon. Gentleman's constituency.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many inquiries from overseas firms have been received in the current calendar year by his Department and the Welsh Development Agency.

During the first five months of 1984, WINvest—the organisation responsible for coordinating inward investment—received 123 inquiries from overseas companies.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that our membership of the EEC is a vital factor in attracting these overseas firms which give so much employment in Wales, but that class-based and futile strikes are amazingly damaging?

I entirely agree, and, of course, the figures that I have given are, at least in large part, an answer to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones). Since WlNvest was established in April 1983, it has helped to secure 23 new projects by overseas companies, which promise up to 3,500 new jobs, and capital expenditure of £82 million, almost all of this because we are members of the European Community.

The Secretary of State mentioned earlier the overseas company Sharp. Does he agree that it would need 200 companies like Sharp setting up in Wales to get the unemployment figures down to what they were in 1979 when the Tory Government took office?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman, of all people, who represents Wrexham, is not seeking to run down a project from a major international company which will initially employ about 250 people and expects to employ about 650 people in the next few years.

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker. Would a point of order relating to Welsh questions that have been asked be better left till 3.30 pm?

Most definitely. We may even go back to Welsh questions.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recollect, in connection with question No. 9, that the Secretary of State answered by a not unprecedented form of words, referring back. My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) objected to that answer, seeing it, quite rightly, as an evasion by the Secretary of State, who was trying to avoid spelling out to the people of Wales that there had been a 118 per cent. increase in unemployment since this Government came into office. You then ruled, Sir, that supplementary questions should not be allowed from my hon. Friends, on the ground that the Secretary of State had not given an answer.

That would not be possible. All questions are of fundamental importance to the Member concerned and, in this instance, of fundamental importance to Wales. As the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) did not rise to ask a supplementary question, it was not unreasonable to move on to the next question, which is exactly what I did. I am anxious, especially during Welsh Question Time, to call as many hon. Members representing Welsh constituencies as possible.

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to prolong the point of order, but it is of importance. Some of my hon. Friends and I were hoping to catch your eye to ask supplementary questions. We know that you have used your discretion to allow Back Benchers to ask supplementary questions, especially on unemployment and its effect on their constituncies. In my constituency unemployment has escalated from 3·7 to 19·7 per cent. since the Government took office. That is why I wanted to ask a supplementary question.

The hon. Gentleman would not be alone in wishing to ask a supplementary question. I try to get through a good range of Welsh questions and I think that the hon. Gentleman would wish me to do so. He was called during Welsh Question Time and I do not think that he has any complaints.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, whether the Church Commissioners have made any assessment of the potential financial and other consequences within their responsibilities of the ordination of women.

No, Sir.

Will my hon. and episcopal Friend ask the Church Commissioners to make some plans about this? Is he aware that, in the opinion of many of us, the case for the ordination of women is strong, and we feel that they will be, and should be, ordained before long?

I give all due note to my hon. Friend's opinions, but the matter will not be decided by the Church Commissioners. As and when it is decided, if it is decided, by the appropriate authority, the commissioners will have to give serious thought to what their responsibilities may be.

As Synod has ruled that there is no theological objection to the ordination of women, and as the Synod is our Parliament, do not the commissioners believe that the calculations asked for in the question should be undertaken?

With respect, no. I think that that would be to pre-empt any decision that the Synod may or may not make.

Will my hon. Friend assure us that, if the unfortunate day comes when women are ordained, they will at least be ordained by Bishops who believe in God?

If this comes about, they will presumably be ordained by bishops of the Church of England. who, I understand on good authority, believe in God.

Quite apart from the opinions of the bishop-elect of Durham, will due regard be had in this matter to the effect on relations between the Church of England and the Orthodox and Roman Catholic communions, which it always says it wants to improve?

The Church Commissioners, for whom I answer, are not responsible for this decision. I must make that quite clear, without discourtesy to any hon. Member. I have been present at many such discussions, and that is certainly one of the considerations that I have often heard them put forward forcefully.

Would it be possible for the hon. Gentleman to consider this further? With regard to the proposed consecration of the new bishop of Durham on 6 July, is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is widespread concern in the north-east——

Order. The question relates to the ordination of women.

Have the Church Commissioners ascertained the views of the bishop-elect of Durham, whose proposed consecration on 6 July is giving widespread concern to many clergy in the north-east?

The Church Commissioners of course have responsibilities to the Bishop of Durham for the time being, as for other diocesan bishops, but I think that they would not usually concern themselves to make inquiries of the kind that the hon. Gentleman has in mind.

Do not these exchanges show that my hon. Friend would be well advised to keep out of this most serious controversy, as such a revolutionary step as the ordination of women is far more serious than any mere financial consideration?

I have generally worked through a reasonably lengthy life by handling women extremely carefully.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what financial and educational arrangements are made for the orphans of deceased clergymen; and if he will make a statement.

While I am sympathetic to the needs of orphans of deceased clergymen, I must point out that the commissioners have no statutory authority to make direct financial provision for them. I am, however, sending my hon. Friend details of the pensions scheme administered by the Church of England Pensions Board and of the assistance which may be available from charitable sources.

I assume that it would be out of order to ask whether my hon. Friend agrees with the artist who considered that Jesus was a woman, but does he agree that clergymen—and perhaps, in future, clergywomen—are underpaid and so have difficulty in making provision for the educational, housing and financial needs of 'heir children? Will the Church Commissioners look at the whole problem sympathetically?

I hope that the details that I shall send my hon. Friend today will assist him. I should draw attention to the stalwart and splendid work of the Clergy Orphans Corporation, which, in 1983, disbursed £157,000 on behalf of orphans. That is no mean figure. I should be very grateful if my hon. Friend would draw attention to that work.

I am very sad to hear my hon. Friend's reply. These days extreme pressure is put on clergymen and it is a fact of life that some die in office. Many children who are now in school may have to leave because the Church Commissioners are unable to find the funds. I hope that something can be done by the Church Commissioners, because the education of those children could be interrupted. As one who went to a school attended by many clergymen's sons, I know that such schools are invaluable to them for their education. I hope that my hon. Friend will reconsider his decision.

If my hon. Friend has an individual case in mind, I should be extremely sorry if he did not use me as his channel of inquiry. The commissioners are having discussions with the pensions board, and it may well be that further consideration can be given to that aspect of the matter.

Will my hon. and doctrinally sound Friend try to ensure that any clergymen's orphans within the diocese of Durham are brought up to believe in the virgin birth and the other essential tenets of the Christian faith?

Order. I do not think that that question had much to do with orphans.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he intends to initiate discussions with local authorities in Gwent concerning proposals contained in Cmnd. 9111, "Regional Industrial Development".

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has, I understand, offered to meet a deputation from Gwent. I shall be represented at the meeting by my hon. Friend the Minister of State.

Does the right hon. Gentleman not appreciate the concern of local authorities in Gwent about the thousands of jobs that have been lost, thus causing great poverty and hardship? Those local authorities have fought very hard to attract new jobs to their areas, but they now need a bit of stability in terms of regional aid, instead of further cuts and alterations. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that their voice is heard in the Cabinet when such matters are further discussed?

Of course I understand the concern of people in Gwent and elsewhere, but as for the case for stability, even the Labour party in Wales, which has made representations during the consultation period, has called for a more selective approach, a closer linking of aid to job creation, and cost per job limits on assistance as well as maintaining the desirability of bringing service industries fully within the scope of the system. Thus, there is clear agreement right across the political spectrum about some changes, and the Government are consulting on them.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that employment in Gwent can best be helped by protecting employment at the Llanwern steelworks?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will recommend to the European Community that Clwyd be designated an integrated operations area.

The future of integrated operations remains under discussion within the Commission. It is too early to be considering new decisions on designation.

When the matter is considered, will the Secretary of State recommend to the European Community that Clwyd be designated an integrated operations area? Does he realise that infrastructure in Clwyd has fallen behind that in Wales generally? If he does not believe me, will he accompany me on a half-day trip so that he can see with his own eyes the point that I am making?

I note that a report has been submitted by independent consultants on behalf of the county council recommending integrated operations for Clwyd, but it is by no means clear what integrated operations have yet been achieved in the areas to which they apply. The Government are carrying out a massive infrastructure programme in Clwyd, which includes a major road-building programme.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received regarding the level of service charges which would be due from council tenants of flats, following the purchase of their homes from their local authorities; and if he will make a statement.

My Department has received nine letters, from or on behalf of council tenants, about the level of service charges. There is no evidence to suggest that in general the level of service charges levied by Welsh local authorities is unreasonable.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he recognise that service charges are a great disincentive? Is there any evidence that service charges in Cardiff are too high? Will he consider encouraging exchanges in order to achieve greater mobility for council flat tenants? Will he examine the possibility of the cash discount being used to purchase from the local authority or on the open market?

Service charges cover repair and other charges. Provided that they are reasonable—that can be tested in the courts—I do not think that they are a major disincentive. The average level of service charge in Cardiff is £330 per annum. I know of three instances of service charges being as high as £900 per annum. In those cases the charge includes a substantial amount for central heating.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what steps the Government are taking to support the Council of Europe's promotion of 1985 as the European year of music.

I refer my hon. Friend to my answer to him on 26 March. The Government welcome the concept of the European music year and are confident that the United Kingdom committee, under the chairmanship of His Royal Highness the Duke of Kent, will produce a popular and diverse programme.

Is my hon. Friend aware that the recent Euro-election cost the British taxpayer about £20 million and produced a 32 per cent. response from the public? Does he accept that if the Government spent only 10 per cent. of that—£2 million—we would get a better response from the British public for the European year of music than for the Euro-elections? Does he agree that the British public would find that music was more the food of love than Euro-elections?

And better harmonisation too.

I shall leave the jokes to my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack). I can find no ground on which to disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Sir D. Price). The Arts Council has made resources available for administration and is considering continuing that.

Will the Under-Secretary acknowledge that this Government's and country's contribution to the European year of music represents a cut of nearly £1 million in the grant to opera and to music next year—a £711,000 cut for music and a £235,000 cut for opera? Will the hon. Gentleman reconsider the decision, because it is an inappropriate way for the Government to celebrate the European year of music?

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on making his political point. Overall, resources for the arts are being increased in the two years concerned. The distribution of resources is a matter for the Arts Council.

Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be a pretty strange way of celebrating the European year of music if we abolished one of London's orchestras, as called for in "The Glory of the Garden" by the Arts Council?

It is not the abolition of an orchestra that is spoken of in that document but the suggestion that it might move to another city. I understand that those discussions are continuing with the Arts Council.

Will the Minister consider commending the possibility during this year of focusing attention on the need to encourage children to continue playing music after they have left school, given that on many occasions the encouragement given at school has no practical expression thereafter and that this is a gap in our musical system?

That is a sensible suggestion, but I am not sure whether it is for my noble Friend so much as for the Secretary of State for Education and Science.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts how much has been spent by the Arts Council on subsidies to opera and ballet companies in each of the last three years for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement.

Total Arts Council expenditure on opera and dance, including Scottish and Welsh Arts Council expenditure, was £25·07 million in 1981–82; £29·21 million in 1982–83; and £31·94 million in 1983–84.

In view of the large sums of public money spent on, and the high price of tickets for, opera and ballet, will my hon. Friend ask the Arts Council to look at this expenditure again? Will he, in particular, explain to the Arts Council that it might be better to get some private funding for opera and ballet?

Having spent last evening listening to "Cosi fan Tutti" at Glyndebourne, I assure my hon. Friend that there are considerable private resources going into opera. If my hon. Friend is asking me to speak to my noble Friend in the sense of diminishing those resources, I must give him a disappointing answer.

What has been the Government's response to the representations that they have had both from Scottish Opera and Scottish Ballet on their financial future?

Those representations are, in the first instance, for the Arts Council. I have no doubt that if representations are made to my noble Friend he will consider them seriously.

For how long does my hon. Friend think the taxpayer can continue to subsidise Royal Opera to the tune of £25 per ticket per performance? Does he think that it is part of his job and that of his Department to see that the many, who are taxpayers, should be made to pay for the pleasures of an elitist few?

I think that my hon. Friend must have missed the recent and welcome changes in the ticket structure at Covent Garden, where an increasing number of cheap tickets are now being made available, which is a sensible policy. No country in the world can put on opera without subsidy of some kind, either through tax or by way of direct Government subsidy, so that my answer to my hon. Friend is, yes, I regard it as part of my job.

Will the Minister take on board the fact that our objection is not so much to having almost one third of central Government allocations spent on opera as to the cut that that has meant for the rest of the arts in Britain? What is to happen in respect of the £34 million pledged this year to local authorities, which are the other supporters of the arts? Will that continue? The Minister for the Arts did not make that clear in the other place last week.

With respect, my noble Friend made it entirely clear that there was a commitment to future funding on the same sort of scale. The hon. Gentleman makes his usual cry for more money in general. Money was earmarked for opera and ballet and it was additional to the other money. Everybody would like more money for everything, but I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is asking us to diminish the amount that is spent on the great opera and ballet house.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will announce the number of (a) positive and (b) negative responses he has received consequent upon the publication of "The Glory of the Garden".

About 1,500 representations—mostly, as is perhaps natural, lobbying for particular organisations which are seen to be under threat—have been received.

I am grateful to the Minister for that information. Will he make it his constant practice to announce—even if he does not put the letters in the Library—what the reaction is for and against following publication of White Papers? Is there not unnecessary secrecy about these matters?

If asked for, the information is always given to the House. We do not—this has come up in other contexts—make a practice of publishing responses, because it is not our responsibility to do that. We never disguise the weight of representations. In an exercise such as this, it is perhaps natural that there are more letters arguing for the maintenance of particular grants than there are welcoming new spending.

Will my hon. Friend conduct a tutorial with the Philistines behind me so that he can explain to them the importance of the Arts Council's interesting, challenging and slightly provocative document, and so that he can tell them that every £1 spent on these rather desirable pursuits has a much better return than most other Government expenditure?

I am not sure how one would calculate such a return, or whether it would be sensible to do so. I am sure that I can delegate this operation to my hon. Friend with great confidence.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what initiatives the Office of Arts and Libraries intends to take to promote architecture.

None at present, Sir.

As it could be argued that architecture is one of the most important of the arts, as the public cannot avoid looking at buildings, and as there is increasing public debate about the merits and demerits of modern architecture, should not my hon. Friend's Department be doing more to increase public awareness about the design of new buildings and the materials used in them?

My hon. Friend's association, the Royal Institute of British Architects, is holding a festival of British architecture this year, at which my noble Friend is making a speech. I shall represent to my noble Friend my hon. Friend's suggestion that more should be done in this direction.