asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he proposes to take to prevent personation at the forthcoming local government elections; and if he will make a statement.

The Government share the widespread public concern in Northern Ireland at the extent and nature of electoral abuse in recent elections there, and are considering what further measures, including those requiring a Bill, should be introduced before the local government elections in May 1985.

Those concerns were widespread before the European elections, and the Government did not move then. Will the Minister give an assurance that, if necessary, legislative action will be taken in time and that consultations with the constitutional parties will be extensive?

In fact, certain administrative action was taken before the European elections; but before considering legislative action it is right that careful consideration should be given to all the options. I hope that it will be possible to take that action in time to meet the date for the local government elections next year.

Is my hon. Friend satisfied that the fears expressed before the European elections were justified by what happened in the Province during those elections? Has the time come when a form of identification for voters should be made compulsory. not only in the Province, but in the United Kingdom as a whole?

Continued widespread abuse means that we must consider all the options to counter it. Otherwise, we are defrauding the voters of Northern Ireland.

Does the Minister acknowledge that it would be unacceptable if a form of identification at polling, such as stamping with invisible ink, were used in Northern Ireland and not elsewhere?

I cannot accept that. The situation in Northern Ireland is quite different from that which exists on this side of the water. In those circumstances, special measures may be necessary.

No doubt there is a growing threat of impersonation in Northern Ireland, but to a large extent it also occurs in Leicester.

Order. That is ingenious, but the question must relate to Northern Ireland.

Will my hon. Friend consult his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the difficulties experienced in other parts of the United Kingdom to ensure that there are no electoral disadvantages?

I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary will have his attention drawn to what my hon. Friend has said.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is satisfied that the management and accounting methods now used by the health and social service boards are effective in minimising misuse of public funds.

Yes, Sir; but there is room for improvement. Progress is being made in the greater use of information technology and more efficient systems are being developed to cover budgetary control, payroll, nurse management, patient administration and stores control.

I am happy to hear that reply. Is the Minister aware that there is serious anxiety among employees and employers in the Royal Victoria hospital? They suspect that some employees are manipulating the system to deprive taxpayers of money. Will the Minister please investigate such charges with the managing body of the hospital?

Certainly such charges need to be investigated. I am aware of a recent case which was drawn to the attention of the chairman of the board by an hon. Member. I believe that appropriate action has been taken as a result. I hope that any other cases will be referred to me or to the chairman of the appropriate board.

While ensuring that public funds are protected from the unmeritorious, is the Minister taking steps to ensure that people receive their proper entitlements? Does he agree that the Belfast law centre not only provides much needed advice and information, but helps people to perceive the law as something that can help them and that it is worthy of respect? If so, will he at least maintain the centre's level of real funding?

The grant to the Belfast law centre is not strictly a matter for me. I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will have been as pleased as I was that the Social Security Advisory Committee, when it came to Northern Ireland, particularly commended my Department's efforts to encourage take-up. We are discussing with the Belfast law centre and others ways of helping people to become aware of their rights under welfare legislation.

In his review, will my hon. Friend take into account the attempts being made in England to cut the costs of administration and to give a better service to the patient by providing more doctors and nurses?

Yes, Sir. We have consulted on the Griffiths report and hope to bring forward proposals in the autumn for implementation, where appropriate, in Northern Ireland, given the difference in its structure.

I welcome the import of the Minister's answers. Does the concern extend to boards other than the Eastern Health and Social Services Board? The hon. Gentleman says that information technology is being used. As what is put in is what comes out, does he consider that there are sufficient safeguards to prevent misuse of the information?

My concern covers each board. I hope that there are sufficient safeguards. However, if the hon. Gentleman has any evidence to suggest that there are not, I should like to hear from him.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to improve the living and training conditions of the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Royal Ulster Constabulary accommodation and training are primarily matters for the Police Authority for Northern Ireland, but I understand that it is planned to spend £46·6 million over the next four years to extend and improve residential and operational accommodation. The Police Authority has recently sought my right hon. Friend's approval for the construction of a new expanded training centre to replace the present limited facilities at Enniskillen. My right hon. Friend and I are currently studying the Police Authority's proposals.

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Is he aware that the RUC does a very tough job? Is he further aware that today's terrorists get the benefit of international training and expertise? Bearing that in mind, will he make sure that the RUC can match the international expertise that terrorists are bringing to Northern Ireland?

I share my hon. Friend's respect for the courage and determination of the RUC. The Government are determined to ensure that it has the training and resources to do its job.

Is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary aware of the disquiet caused to my constituents by persistent rumours that the new training depot will be removed from Fermanagh and South Tyrone? Will he assure them that he will look carefully at possible sites in my constituency for the new training depot and that neither he nor the Police Authority has yet ruled out siting the training depot in my constituency? Will he also assure them that, with the Police Authority, he will have proper consultations with elected representatives in the west of the Province?

As I have said, my right hon. Friend and I are studying the proposals. No decisions have yet been taken. We want to consider all the options to make sure that the RUC gets the training that is so necessary in the most cost-effective way possible.

I hope that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary's opening remarks do not mean that he does not take a close and detailed interest in the RUC's training programme. Will he confirm that the human awareness and discrimination training is at least up to the standard of that of the Metropolitan police?

I am sure that all aspects of the training appropriate to the special task of the RUC in Northern Ireland are covered to the highest possible standard. However, we need improved facilities to conduct that training.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if, in order to assess the current wishes of those who live in Northern Ireland about their consitutional status, he will consider holding a further referendum.

I have no plans to do so.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that while every Member of the House understands, though may not like, the constitutional position, many people overseas —particularly in the United States—and, indeed, many young voters in this country, do not understand that a majority view has frequently been expressed through the ballot box? Would it not help to promote Her Majesty's Government's policies and to counter hostile propaganda if, say, once a decade that exercise were carried out?

I take my hon. Friend's point. On the other hand, I am well aware of the impact that too many elections can have in Northern Ireland. Nearly every election in Northern Ireland in recent years has been fought as if it were a referendum about the constitution. Therefore, I do not want to get involved in a further argument at this stage. We take every opportunity to explain the position, in the United States and in other countries.

Is it not a fact that we know what the outcome of any referendum would be? Let us be quite clear — [HON. MEMBERS: "Why?"]. Because the minority community was deliberately made a minority community by drawing a line round an area in which there was an inbuilt Protestant majority. That was done by force of arms a long time ago. Is it perhaps that the hon. Gentleman who asked the question is trying to be provocative and cause further trouble?

No. My hon. Friend would have a tremendous job to be as provocative as the hon. Gentleman.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is not in question, that such a referendum would simply inflame passions that are best left uninflamed, and that the people should be allowed to devote their attention to finding ways and means of working and living together?

I have absolutely no doubt that that is correct. I also appreciate the point raised by my hon. Friend about the need to try to show other countries what the position is.

Instead of holding a rigged referendum confined to the gerrymandered Six Counties of Ireland, why do we not consult the Government of the Republic of Ireland about the possibility of holding a referendum throughout the whole of Ireland, so that all the people of Ireland can be consulted about, for example, a united Ireland?

The simple answer to that question is that the Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the present security situation in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.

Since I last answered questions on 28 June there have been four deaths in incidents arising from the security situation in the Province. Two of those killed were civilians and two were part-time members of the Ulster Defence Regiment.

As one who has not always seen eye to eye in every detail with my right hon. Friend, may I ask whether he is aware of the wide support for the personal courage and determination which has typified and characterised his stewardship of Northern Ireland?

On the latter point, we have obviously been very worried by recent events in the Castlederg area. I have had private talks with the Member of Parliament for the area, and drawn the matter very much to the attention of the Chief Constable and the GOC.

Does the Secretary of State agree that July and August have traditionally been sensitive months for security in the Province, and no time more so than the month of August at about the anniversary of internment? Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that in August 1983 a number of terrorist activities were staged to impress visitors from the Noraid organisation? Is he aware that that same delegation intends to return this August? If so, will he take steps to ensure that those of its members who engaged in terrorist activities on the last occasion and the publicity director of the IRA in America, Mr. Martin Galvin, are excluded from Northern Ireland?

I am well aware of what happened last August. I should like to make it plain that this group is not welcome in Northern Ireland. I have already been in touch with my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary about certain individuals.

Has the Secretary of State noticed that in recent weeks in a number of areas there have been provocations by Republican groups trying to create a reaction, which in some cases unfortunately occurred? Does the right hon. Gentleman realise that the normal antiterrorist activity is insufficient to deal with such incidents and that the police need to put their minds to methods of combating low-level street activity?

I am aware of certain incidents which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. I am also aware of other provocative incidents which were committed by people from the other side of the community. I deplore all such incidents, from wherever they come.

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the largest demonstrations held for 12 months in Northern Ireland went off peacefully, and for that reason no comment was made by the BBC to inform people throughout the United Kingdom?

Yes, I think it can be said that this summer there have been a number of marches of the traditional type which have gone off absolutely peacefully. That is a great credit to everyone in Northern Ireland. Furthermore, I believe that the Province is now.more stable. I think most people feel that there is a great deal more stability now than there has been for some years. I hope that that can be used as a basis for making some advances.

Going back to what my right hon. Friend said earlier, I hope that he will not be too embarrassed if I say that a number of hon. Members in the House are prepared to say nice things about him, whether he is going or not.

That is a change.

Does the Secretary of State agree that security is best protected by attracting the support of the whole community for the agencies of law and order and that that entails maintaining manifest fairness? Will he tell the House when we may expect a debate on the Baker report?

I expect that this item will come up for debate soon after we return. This is a matter for the Leader of the House, but I believe that that is the understanding.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his most recent meeting with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions

My right hon. Friend last formally met the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in November 1983, when they discussed a wide range of economic matters.

In view of the increase in unemployment in the Province under this Government from 52,000 in 1979 to 118,000 today, when do the Government intend to put to the ICTU some positive measures to reduce this high level of unemployment?

I do not think that it is the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to which the Government should put such measures. Whilst I acknowledge the considerable and worrying increase in unemployment in the Province in the last few years, we should take comfort from the fact that the last unemployment figures showed a reduction. Seasonally adjusted, they actually showed a fall.

In an attempt to deal with unemployment in Northern Ireland, will the Minister give urgent consideration to the difficulties facing cheese manufacturers and the possible loss of jobs arising from the cut in the milk allocation to those factories? Will he also tell the House whether he has any plans to assist the beef industry, in view of the dramatic fall in beef prices?

I suspect that the question has more relevance to a later question on the Order Paper. However, it is true that there is considerable concern, and indeed short-time working, in industries associated with the agriculture industry, because of the cutback in milk production. We are watching the situation very closely. I believe that there has been a degree of over-reaction. I hope that it will not result in loss of jobs.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the representatives of the Irish TUC, whom he is to meet, are fully representative of widely-based opinion in the Province?

Yes.

Will the Minister go back to the trade unions and discuss with them the future of shipbuilding in the Province? In a statement yesterday, his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry brought into question the future of Harland and Wolff. What comments has the Minister to make to his right hon. Friend in the light of that worrying statement?

Members of the committee will be meeting my right hon. Friend on Tuesday. I am sure that, if they so wish, they will raise the subject with him then.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what progress has been made in the provision of sound title for Housing Executive properties available for sale to tenants.

The Northern Ireland Housing Executive is responsible for the day-to-day administration of its voluntary sales scheme. However, I understand from the vice-chairman that sound title has been established for over 3,000 holdings. There are at present some 169 holdings where there are title problems, and the Housing Executive is endeavouring to resolve these on the basis of negotiated agreement with neighbouring landowners. The majority of the 21,000 sales completed to date have progressed smoothly.

As the ownership of at least some of those properties has passed through the hands of no fewer than four successive authorities, will the Minister consider introducing legislation to clear up the confusion in those remaining cases once and for all, bearing in mind that the number is likely to increase as fresh applications for purchase are received?

There are certainly problems—and I noted what was said by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. Powell) on the financial provisions order—but I do not consider that the difficulty is quite so acute as the right hon. Gentleman suggests. We are still managing to complete 100 sales a week. I think that that is very encouraging and a vindication of the policy so wisely started by the Labour Government and vigorously continued by the present Government. However, I shall keep the matter under review.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many children in Northern Ireland are presently receiving their education in (a) Catholic and (b) Protestant schools in the state system.

In January 1983 there were 162,749 pupils in grant-aided schools under Roman Catholic management, and 190,091 pupils at controlled schools—which are non-denominational — and at voluntary grammar schools not under Roman Catholic management. These figures cannot automatically be equated with the denomination of the pupils concerned.

Does the Minister accept that when the Select Committee last went across to examine the state of education in Northern Ireland the two figures were much nearer to each other than those that he has given? The imagination boggles at what the Unionists will have to do to keep ahead.

As in the rest of the United Kingdom, children in Northern Ireland are educated as far as possible in accordance with the wishes of their parents. Having said that, however, I shall lose no opportunity of encouraging teachers, parents and school authorities from both sections of the education system in Northern Ireland to co-operate, wherever possible, on both study and community projects. That would be of benefit to everyone concerned.

Does my hon. Friend agree that more children should be encouraged to attend schools of mixed faith, so that the early barriers of hatred and mistrust can be cut down as soon as possible?

As I said, the Government would support integrated education, and they have demonstrated that by

In view of the Minister's encouraging answer that children should be educated in accordance with their parents' wishes, is he aware that the number of children whose parents would like them to be educated in inter-community schools such as Lagan college now substantially exceeds that college's capacity? Will he consider capital funding for an extension of Lagan college on a different site?

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, Lagan college is in temporary accommodation and is seeking a more permanent home. We would obviously consider how capital requirements could be met. However, there is a long queue of very deserving capital projects in education in Northern Ireland and I do not think that it would be right to give Lagan college special priority.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement on the progress of the negotiations between himself and the political parties after the New Ireland Forum report.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what constitutional changes he intends to make in Northern Ireland.

During the past three weeks I have had informal discussion with the leaders of the main political parties. I hope for further informal discussion, directly between the parties and with me, during the coming weeks, to see whether common ground can be found on the best way of making political progress in Northern Ireland. The Government hope that it will be possible to develop agreed ideas which reflect the interest and concern of both parts of the community.

Does my right hon. Friend believe that the alliance proposals for more power for the Chairman of the Assembly and for some sharing of the chairmanship across the community divide constitute a useful way forward?

Yes. I think that the alliance proposal has a good deal of merit. I have no doubt that it will put them forward in the Reports Committee of the Assembly, with which I shall be having a discussion early next week.

While paying tribute, on this afternoon of encomia, to my right hon. Friend's desire and efforts to make Northern Ireland more democratic, may I ask him whether he intends to discuss with the Constitutional Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly, or with anyone else, "the way forward" set out in the document so entitled?

He is on his way out.

Of course, I am willing to discuss the proposals in that document at any time. They are an advance on anything that we have seen for some time. The leader of the Official Unionist party knows that.

Why does the right hon. Gentleman always engage in wishful thinking? Why is he so happy to be going? Is it because he has made no real constitutional advance in Northern Ireland, so that we still have a gerrymandered state bearing no resemblance to any ideas of democracy as we understand it in the United Kingdom? Does he agree that the real progress that we need to make will be made not in the Assembly but in discussions with the Republican Government?

All Secretaries of State, on both sides of the House, have done their best to make political progress in Northern Ireland, and that must involve both parts of the community. That is our aim, and that is what I have sought to achieve.

Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be a fitting memorial for his work in Northern Ireland if he built a causeway linking Northern Ireland to the mainland of Britain, thus providing an irrevocable link?

We are just completing the Foyle bridge, which has cost a lot of money and I do not think that we have enough for a causeway quite yet.

May I suggest that if the Secretary of State has such powers, he may wish to build us a bridge to the Isle of Wight? May I also suggest that the greatest gift that he could make to this country and to its future peace would be to achieve a power-sharing executive out of the Assembly? Can he say whether, following the discussions that he has had so far with the other parties in Northern Ireland, he is at all optimistic that that is achievable?

I think that progress towards any devolved administration involving both parts of the community will be slow. I also think that any form of power sharing must not come under such great pressure that it breaks down again as it did before. We must therefore look for other modes than simply the power sharing of 1973–74. I am trying to turn the attention of the parties in Northern Ireland towards that, to see whether there is an alternative that meets the criteria.

Has my right hon. Friend noticed any change in the Irish Government's view on this subject since their ambassador told some of us at the time of the last debate that the Irish Government were reasonably satisfied with the progress being made?

No. I think that the view of the Irish Government remains that which the ambassador told my hon. Friend. I must say to the Irish Government, and to this House, that I do not think that we shall see miraculous progress in the short term. It would be better to make slow progress which can be sustained than miraculous progress which will go wrong again.

Has the Secretary of State now grasped the fact that the dialogue for which we had all hoped is being delayed to see whether his successor is wet, dry or damp? Much as we shall regret his passing, had it not better be soon?

I have no evidence to support that view.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how the Northern Ireland dairy industry has been affected so far by the introduction of milk quotas in April.

It is still too early to assess the effects of the introduction of the milk supplementary levy, but the indications are that the majority of dairy farmers are adjusting to the new situation.

If the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food continues to deny Northern Ireland the full benefits of the special Northern Ireland allocation, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that the Government fully implement their decision to equalise hardship throughout the United Kingdom, so that all hardship cases, especially those in Northern Ireland, receive equal and fair treatment?

I entirely refute the suggestion that Northern Ireland did not benefit from the 65,000 tonnes extra allocation. It definitely did. Regarding hardship, the hon. Gentleman will know that we have increased the proportion of farmers whom we hope to buy out, or the proportion of quota which we hope to buy out, under the outgoers scheme, which is giving special treatment to Northern Ireland yet again.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to accelerate the processing of housing grant applications.

This is a matter for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, but I understand from the vice chairman that grants staff are currently working overtime in an effort to reduce the backlog in processing grants which resulted from the introduction of the Housing (NI) Order 1983.

Does the Minister recall that two years ago he intervened very effectively to help to remove the logjam which at that time accumulated in the processing of grants, and does he agree that a similarly effective intervention would be welcome at this stage?

There is a backlog, which I hope is a one-off backlog as a result of the 1980 order. We have increased the staff dealing with grants applications by 100 over the past 18 months. We have increased expenditure by £6 million this year, so that it has risen by 223 per cent. since the Government came to office. There will be a further increase of 26 in staff dealing with applications. I hope that we shall be able to shift the backlog once and for all.

Is the Minister aware that not only can grants be given to householders by the Northern Ireland Housing Executive but to disabled people by the Department of Health and Social Security? Is he further aware that there is occasionally a delay in the straightening out of the needs between the two granting authorities. Will he take steps to see that those problems, too, are sorted out?

Yes, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he plans to meet the Irish Government to discuss the New Ireland Forum report.

I often meet members of the Irish Government, in particular the Foreign Minister, Mr. Peter Barry, and on such occasions it is naturally open to them to refer to the New Ireland Forum report. I have no firm date at present for my next meeting.

The right hon. Gentleman said a few moments ago that he wished to see slow progress, but progress, in resolving Northern Ireland's problems. Is he aware that many of us are watching with concern for evidence of that progress, particularly in relation to the various options put forward in the New Ireland Forum report, and that we should like to see clear evidence of progress on those lines in discussions with the Irish Government?

Yes, but the hon. Gentleman must recognise that his party, too, is committed to progress, but progress with the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. That has to be taken into account all the time and that is why I believe that progress will be slow.

In any such discussions, will the Secretary of State firmly reject any proposals for joint control of the security forces in Northern Ireland, which, if they were put into effect, would be constitutionally unacceptable and unworkable in practice?

I do not believe that joint control, in the form that we should expect it to operate, would be appropriate in the circumstances of Northern Ireland.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that some of us on these Benches think it inadvisable to consider the New Ireland Forum report, but that if he insists upon considering the report it must be essential to consider it only in relation to the Official Unionist document that was produced prior to it?

There are a number of documents which have to be considered at the same time.

Can the Secretary of State tell us exactly what, during his tenure of office—taking into account the initiative in connection with the New Ireland Forum — he has managed to achieve? Many superstructures have been set up while I have been in the House in the past 14 years, but they do not seem to be getting anywhere. As reference has been made to his being on his way out, will he take a piece of advice from me? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It is serious. If he wants to get hold of those directorships, he should go as quickly as possible, because his right hon. Friend the ex-chairman of the Tory party—

Order. That has nothing to do with the New Ireland Forum.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will take steps to enable expenses to be paid to trainee doctors for Northern Ireland removing to other parts of the United Kingdom comparable to those payable in Great Britain under the Whitley agreements.

These expenses are a matter for the Great Britain Health Departments and the general council of the Whitley councils for the health services in Great Britain.

Will the Minister make representations to his colleagues in Great Britain to ensure that the same facilities apply to trainee doctors travelling here from Northern Ireland?

I know the concern felt by the hon. Gentleman and others on that issue. I shall certainly speak to my right hon. Friend. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will also get in touch with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, not least so that the Whitley council can be aware of the anxiety in Northern Ireland about the matter.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to extend the training period for prison officers in Northern Ireland.

The content and duration of the initial training course for new recruits to the Northern Ireland prison service is currently being reviewed, with the intention that a revised longer course should be introduced at the beginning of next year.

Does the Minister realise that there is widespread feeling among prison officers that their training needs to be extended? Will he undertake to discuss any new training modules with the Prison Officers Association, so that it can participate in those discussions?

As soon as the content, broad outline and length of the course have been established, we shall, of course, consult the Prison Officers Association.

Will the Minister say what extra instructions are being given to prison warders regarding the searching of babies and prams belonging to female prisoners in Armagh prison?

It would appear, from the line that the hon. Gentleman is taking, that he has swallowed whole the Republican propaganda that is being spread about a certain incident. Searching of babies does not take place in prisons in Northern Ireland.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now undertake a review of the law governing compensation for criminal injury in Northern Ireland.

A review is already in progress.

During that review, will the Secretary of State bear in mind that a young woman in my constituency died as a result of a bomb explosion? She was a single parent and because she was unemployed her child was unable to obtain compensation. Does the Minister not think that that is scandalous and should be rectified?

The criminal injuries compensation scheme operates on the principles and practice of common law as normally applied. A review is in progress and any representations that the hon. Gentleman makes will be taken fully into account.

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will now bring Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom by transferring responsibility for providing services for educating mentally-handicapped children from the Health and Social Services Department to the Department of Education.

A working group set up by the Department of Health and Social Services and the Department of Education for Northern Ireland is currently considering this issue. When it has reported my hon. Friend and I will study its recommendations before taking a decision.

Does the Minister agree that mentally handicapped children in Northern Ireland are at a disadvantage in this respect compared with their counterparts in the United Kingdom, and that this is something that should be dealt with immediately?

I am not sure that I agree that such children are necessarily at a disadvantage, but we hope that the working party will give us the opportunity to take a decision in the autumn. There are two views about this, as there are about many other issues.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 July.

This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House I shall be having further meetings later today.

The Prime Minister said on Tuesday that we need a merchant shipbuilding fleet for strategic reasons. In view of the comments this morning by the auditors of British Shipbuilders that the sell-off of the warship yard, which will be dependent on Government contracts, will leave the rest of British Shipbuilders as a hopelessly non-viable institution, will the Prime Minister now acknowledge that privatisation has become her party's clause 4 and that the latest decision is a triumph of ideology over common sense?

No, Mr. Speaker. I understand that the auditors Arthur Young McLelland Moores have issued a statement making it clear that they did not criticise the Government. They have denied expressing any opinion whatever on the merit or otherwise of privatisation. The report is wrong. The whole of British Shipbuilders has been dependent upon subsidies from the intervention fund for a considerable time, and since 1979 the Government have put in £1·1 billion to assist British Shipbuilders.

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the chairman of British Shipbuilders said in evidence that there was no country in which merchant shipbuilding existed without Government support?

I am not sure whether that is correct. I know that large subsidies are given to shipbuilding the world over. Certainly considerable subsidies are given in this country. For example, the £1·1 billion given in support of British Shipbuilders since 1979 amounts to over £20,000 for each current employee.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 July.

I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave earlier.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with Mrs. Parry, the South Wales miner's wife —[Interruption.] who said in a radio broadcast—

Order. We all have lapses of memory.

Does my right hon. Friend agree with Mrs. Parry, the South Wales miner's wife —[Interruption.]

Order. I ask the House to allow the hon. Gentleman to ask his question.

Mrs. Party said that she would like the miners' union to hold democratic ballots and the miners to be free of intimidation if they return to work. Does my right hon. Friend not think it ironic that the leaders of the supposedly democratic Labour party are suddenly struck dumb—

Order. The hon. Gentleman has asked his question. The Prime Minister cannot be responsible for what Opposition hon. Members may think.

I got the drift of my hon. Friend's question. He wants a ballot for the coal workers, and he believes that there should be a ballot while they are on strike. I know that in April the Leader of the Opposition also thought that there should be a ballot —[Interruption.]

Order. Mr. David Steel.

After the biggest rise in mortgage rates for five years, does the Prime Minister still agree with this sentence in the 1979 Conservative party manifesto—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] Yes, I am reading. It says:

"Mortgage rates have risen steeply because of the Government's financial mismanagement."

The right hon. Gentleman is very well aware of the reasons why the interest rates went up. They had been kept disconnected from American interest rates for a very long time, but when we came to the period when strikes were beginning to have an effect those interest rates had to go up. The market took them up and the Government had to validate what the market had done. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, I always regret any increase in interest rates, and I am the first to wish for the time when they can come down again.

Perhaps the Prime Minister might find time during her busy day to explain to hon. Members and others why, if the economy is in the healthy state that she and her Ministers claim, the City is so worried?

I thought that the exchange rate, for example, was going very well yesterday. If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the City is so worried when the financial index is well over 750—at about 770—what did he think when it was down to 140 under the Labour Government?

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 July.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some moments ago.

Is the Prime Minister aware that the million or so residents of Cornwall and Devon are within seven to 10 days of having their water supply reduced to seven hours a day—and that is if they are lucky? Will she check today that her Minister is doing all that is possible to approve orders that will enable the water authority to increase the amount of water taken from rivers and reduce the amount wasted through reservoirs? Furthermore, will the right hon. Lady consider the temporary appointment of a Minister to ensure that all that can possibly be done is done to reduce the impact of this undoubted difficulty?

No, I do not think that the appointment of a special Minister for that purpose would help. I believe that my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction will be making a statement tomorrow about the matter which the hon. Gentleman has raised, and that there will be a statement later today, about Wales.

There was much concern this morning over the news that Standard Telephones had made a serious takeover bid for ICL. Will the Prime Minister take this opportunity to make it absolutely clear to all concerned that she will use her Government's power to ensure that ICL, our only major independent computer company, remains in British control?

Standard Telephones is now a British company; it is not an American-owned company. The matter will be considered by the Director General of Fair Trading and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry under the normal rules.

The Prime Minister appears to be misinformed. "Who Owns Whom" clearly states that Standard Telephones is a subsidiary of ITT, which is an American company. Notwithstanding that, and as the yobs behind her drowned out the right hon. Lady's words, I again ask her whether she will absolutely ensure, in everyone's hearing, that there can be no question of this major computer company being under other than British control?

I inquired about the matter this morning and understand that Standard Telephones is now a British company. It has made a bid for ICL and the matter will be considered by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry after the advice of the Director General of Fair Trading under the normal rules.

Since my right hon. Friend was not heard clearly earlier, will she now take the opportunity to say a word in praise of those miners who have had the courage to go back to work in the face of all intimidations?

Yes, Mr. Speaker. Many of those who have returned to work were in areas where the National Union of Mineworkers branches had voted convincingly against a strike and for staying at work. Indeed, in the National Coal Board report there is a whole list of such areas. In Nottingham, they voted 73 per cent., in Cumberland 78 per cent., in South Derbyshire 84 per cent., in Leicestershire 89 per cent. and so on against a strike. I believe that it is right to want to keep the rule book of the NUM as the Nottinghamshire miners have done, that, it is right to give the industry a good prospect for the future, and that it is right to want to work to keep families. I do exactly as my hon. Friend asked and give every support to those who are returning to work for the future of their industry.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 July.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some moments ago.

In view of the rumours circulating in my constituency that the BSC corporate plan is being deliberately delayed until the miners' strike is over, will the Prime Minister now give a guarantee to the House that there is and will be nothing in that plan that will create more unemployment among BSC workers?

I have not seen the British Steel corporate plan and cannot say what it is likely to contain. I think that the threat to the jobs of BSC workers comes from the strike of the miners.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the presence of pickets outside the home of a man who wants to go to work is yet a further intrusion into individual freedom and liberty and can only harm the public standing and reputation of the trade union movement?

Yes, I think that some of the scenes of intimidation and violence that we have seen and the assembly of pickets outside houses, which is wholly and uttterly wrong, is recognised as wrong by all right thinking people. They wish to see that it does not happen and I hope that leaders of other trade unions will make their views felt about it.

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 26 July.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave some moments ago.

Will the Prime Minister have a look at the Standing Charges (Abolition) Bill, introduced yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn)? As many families and elderly and sick people are now finding the cost of heating a matter of luxury rather than need, will the right hon. Lady approve and support the Bill when it comes before the House?

No. We inquired into standing charges some time ago and they were reduced under certain circumstances. There are quite a number of families for whom the abolition of standing charges would not be advantageous.

Has my right hon. Friend had time to read the report on the speech of the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), which is far more courageous than the attitude taken by the Leader of the Opposition? Is not that being responsible?

I believe that most people are against the violence and intimidation that has taken place outside pits and the homes of certain miners. Most people believe that there should be a ballot in the coal industry and for the future of that industry it would be advisable for people to go back to work. I believe, too, that most people understand the case for the closure of uneconomic pits because of the tremendous burden on the taxpayer should they all remain open.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition made a statement during Prime Minister's Question Time which concerns my constituency.

The hon. Gentleman started to say that it was a point of order which arose out of Question Time, but it must be a matter on which I can rule.

The right hon. Gentleman's statement was both inaccurate and positively dangerous to jobs in my constituency and this country. The Leader of the Opposition said that STC was owned by the United Stages of America.

Order. I think that the Prime Minister clarified the matter.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For many weeks we have had points of order and questions from both sides of the House about improving Prime Minister's Question Time. Would it be helpful if each night after 10.30 the questions that are planted by the Prime Minister and are unable to be read by her Back Benchers could be read out and the Prime Minister could have the opportunity to read the replies.

Order. I think that the most helpful suggestion would be for the Prime Minister to be heard in silence and for those who question her to be heard in silence, too.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can we ensure that planted questions are remembered?