asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many construction workers have been unemployed in Wales during the years March 1979 to March 1984.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the number of unemployed workers in the construction industry in Wales in May 1979 and at the most recently available date.

As right hon. and hon. Members are aware, since 1982 the unemployment count has been based on claims held at unemployment benefit offices and these do not contain information about the previous industry or occupation of the claimant. I am therefore unable to give up-to-date information in reply to the hon. Gentlemen.

I expected such a reply, but is it not time that the Minister decided to which categories those unemployed people belong? Reading the National and Welsh Building Trades Federation statement about the catastrophic effect of the Government's action on the construction industry and its workers, I estimate that there are 50,000 unemployed construction workers in Wales. Is it not time that the right hon. Gentleman started thinking in terms of employing them in building the hospitals, houses, sheltered and other accommodation, sewers and roads that we desperately need in Wales?

I do not know what basis the hon. Gentleman has for those figures. When we last had the categories of those registered there were about 28,400 unemployed construction workers. Since then those in employment in the construction industry, for which we have the figures, have varied pretty consistently between about 47,000 and 49,000. Construction output in Wales is 8·5 per cent. higher than in the previous year, which is an encouraging trend. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that massive road, factory and hospital building programmes and many other works are being undertaken in Wales by the Government.

Since all around me I see signs of the deteriorating public infrastructure, does the Secretary of State accept that the Government's policy is failing to create sufficient new jobs? Will he give some lead in providing new work for the construction industry through which, I hope, we shall get the Welsh economy going?

I do not know how the hon. Gentleman can talk about a declining infrastructure when the trunk road network past his constituency has been and is being dramatically improved, just as it is in north Wales and many other parts of Wales, when capital expenditure on major schemes by the Welsh water authority amounts to about £50 million a year, when there is a massive urban programme and when, as I have already pointed out, we are also undertaking large-scale hospital, factory and other building projects.

Can my right hon. Friend make any estimate of the effect on unemployment in the construction and other industries of the current miners' dispute, with the impact that that might have on future capital investment?

It is clearly having some effect in depressing demand and delaying investment that would otherwise be taking place in the mining industry, quite apart from investment in steel and elsewhere. The effect must be to destroy jobs.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of a TUC estimate that there are more than 3,500 highly skilled construction workers languishing on the dole in Wales? Is it not true that in Cardiff, Swansea, parts of north-east Wales and in our valleys there are very severe housing problems? Would not an emergency housing drive help not only those who need homes but jobless construction workers? May we have some action for the construction industry?

The hon. Gentleman mentioned both Cardiff and Swansea, but I should point out that the Government have launched massive initiatives through the urban programme, which includes house construction in both of those cities. They are notable examples of what can be and is being achieved.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the number of long-term unemployed for the Rhymney valley district, Mid Glamorgan County and Wales, respectively, at the latest available date.

As at September 1984 the number of claimants unemployed for over a year were 3,491, 15,505 and 72,720 respectively.

Does the Secretary of State accept that those shameful figures are an indictment of the Government's policies? Will he confirm recent press reports that he is fighting a rearguard action in the Cabinet in defence of regional policy? Will he now give the House an assurance that there will be no diminution in the areas covered by special development area status or in the funds available to them? In the light of those appalling figures, if he is not in a position to give that guarantee will he announce that he intends to resign his Cabinet post?

Clearly such unemployment figures must be a matter of concern to us all, although they are the result of policies that were pursued over very long periods, not by this Government, but by previous Governments, including many Socialist Governments, who helped to create the conditions that we are now having to tackle. Final decisions about the regional package have not yet been taken, but there will be a continuing and effective regional programme in Wales, as elsewhere.

Will my right hon. Friend make an estimate of how many Welsh jobs were lost as a result of previous Labour Governments closing many Welsh coal mines because they were uneconomic?

I should not like to make such an estimate, but it is clear that successive Governments have felt it necessary and right to close uneconomic pits, and that a larger number were closed by former Labour Governments than by Conservative Governments.

Is the Secretary of State aware that of nearly 500 school leavers in the Merthyr borough this September, only about 20 have obtained permanent jobs? Given the chaos and confusion in this Government's economic and energy policies, what hope can the right hon. Gentleman offer to the youngsters who have just joined the dole queue and who have come on to the would-be employment market that they will not become, like the rest of us—or rather, the rest of the people—the long-term unemployed?

It should not be for me to comment on whether the hon. Gentleman is employed, or whether he is employed profitably. However, this Government have introduced massive programmes to help the unemployed, particularly the young unemployed, and their training. As a result of those programmes and the guarantees that we have given to school leavers, I believe that a very high proportion of those youngsters will find jobs or continue in training.

Given the appalling situation that is illustrated by the figures that the Secretary of State has given the House this afternoon, is he not just a little concerned about the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement yesterday on "Weekend World" that there is very little that he can do about it? Does he not appear to be like some latter day Asquith, just waiting for something to turn up?

I noticed that even the deputy leader of the Labour party was careful enough to warn his conference that excessive hopes should not be raised about what Governments can do about creating jobs in the short term. I hope that the hon. Gentleman noted what my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said about the undoubted relationship between wage levels and the amount of employment, and that he will take note of the remarkable increase in the number of apprentices in the electrical contracting industry as a result of a sensible deal on their wage levels.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the current situation regarding the implementation of the European Economic Community milk quota scheme in Wales.

Milk production in Wales was reduced by 9 per cent. between April and August this year compared to the same period last year. It is therefore unlikely that supplementary levy will have to be paid in November. The five local panels of the dairy produce quota tribunal have already dealt with 80 per cent. of the special case applications for increased quota. I consider this to be good progress.

What assurances will my right hon. Friend give that milk quotas are being as rigorously imposed by our EEC partners as they are here, since only six member states have passed legislation, and producers in the majority of member states have not even been allocated provisional quotas? Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in addition, the Italian Agriculture Minister has only recently discovered how many dairy producers there are in Italy and has declared that his Government will pay levies, contrary to Commission rules?

My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food was the first to raise the issue with the Council and the Commission. He made it clear that we in Britain believe that quota levy cannot be imposed on farmers here or in other Community countries until the scheme has been introduced by all member states. My right hon. Friend has pursued the matter in subsequent meetings in Brussels and will be doing so again in the coming weeks.

Is the Secretary of State aware that many dairy farmers in Wales are worried that the vets investigating centres at Cardiff and Aberystwyth are to be closed? Is there any truth in that suggestion and what does the Minister intend to do about it?

A proposal for reorganising that service has been made and a consultation paper has been circulated to employees. It is proposed that certain centres be closed. As the hon. Gentleman has heard about the consultation paper, I believe that it must have been received by his constituents.

When will my right hon. Friend be able to announce quotas for next year? Will he reconsider the position of the small farmer, with a herd of only 30 or 40 cows, who is suffering hardship now as a result of difficulties experienced in 1983, such as mastitis, which is not covered by the special hardship criteria?

I cannot provide information about the quota for next year at this stage, but as a result of the large number of applications under the leavers scheme we should be able to put the 40-cow man, producing about 200,000 litres of milk a year, back to the same position as he was in before the quota scheme was introduced. The specific cases to which the hon. Gentleman refers should generally be covered by those arrangements.

Is the right hon. Gentleman guaranteeing the future of the small dairy farmer in that answer? May I remind him that in west Wales — in Clwyd for example — many small dairy farmers face either substantial cuts in their income or bankruptcy?

The first round of acceptances under the outgoers scheme involves about 550 Welsh applicants covering about 44·4 million litres of quota. The fact that we have received acceptances on that scale should enable us to put the 40-cow man—the smaller producer—back to the production levels that existed before the quota scheme was introduced.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received during the past three months concerning the capability of local authorities in Wales to meet their statutory obligations in view of the effects on their finances of the Government's policies.

Only two such representations, from Arfon borough council and Alyn and Deeside district council, have been made in the past three months, and they were based upon a misunderstanding as to the nature of my call for a voluntary limitation of local authority capital spending in the present year. The authorities concerned have been advised that the terms of the voluntary restraint specifically allow councils to proceed with any expenditure which, on legal advice, they are required to incur to meet statutory obligations.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a number of district and county councils in Wales are considering options for next year that will mean the wholesale reduction of important services such as education, especially nursery education, an area which has been considered recently by both Clwyd and Mid-Glamorgan? Will this not result in the decimation of the policy for the under-fives, which the Government apparently support? That will have a significant effect on working women, who will have to increase their domestic care responsibilities as a direct result of Government policy.

The hon. Gentleman referred to options, and of course there are options. It does not follow that councils and council members will select the worst possible options. The minimum budget-to-target increase for the counties is 2·4 per cent., and the average increase is 3·5 per cent. Five counties have a year-on-year increase that is in excess of the forecast increase in costs in the economy as a whole. There is no reason to suppose that devastating decisions will be taken of the sort to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

Will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider the effect of teachers' pay settlements on our counties' budgets, bearing in mind that they were asked to budget for a lower settlement? Can he ensure that there will not be further pressure on school transport, school meals and teacher-pupil ratios as a result of this unexpected settlement?

It must be recognised that the level of wage settlements has an effect on the level and cost of services. Until the country recognises that fact there is little hope of dealing with the unemployment figures about which the hon. Gentleman has expressed concern.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that local authorities such as Clwyd would find it much easier to meet their statutory obligations if they concentrated on those obligations and did not indulge in grandiose and extravagant schemes such as the buying and development of Bodelwyddan castle?

Local authorities have choices open to them and if times are difficult they should choose essentials and not what may be considered luxuries.

When will the right hon. Gentleman realise that our local authorities are reeling from one blow after another? The latest threat is directed to municipal bus undertakings, for it seems that the Secretary of State for Transport is intent on crippling and dismantling them purely for private profit. What will happen to important routes and services that are riot lucrative? The travelling public will ask that question in the months and years ahead.

Bus services have been sharply declining under successive Governments and different policies. It is about time that we consider radically the sort of bus services that we need, and that is precisely what the Government are doing by means of their consultative document, which has been issued and which makes proposals for the provision of better services and the essential services that many communities continue to require.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has reviewed the experience to date with the consultative machinery for users and customers of the Welsh water authority; and what conclusions he has reached.

I note with pleasure that the seven local consumer advisory committees which we asked the Welsh water authority to establish in 1982 have provided a practical and effective channel of communication between all classes of consumer and the authority. Experience has been reviewed in a report to my right hon. Friend under section 24 of the Water Act 1973, as amended, and some minor changes are under consideration.

As there was remarkably poor local authority representative attendance under the old regime for the Welsh water authority, can my hon. Friend report any clear signs that there is a better attendance record in the new consultative committees?

I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. Attendance in the first report period — November 1982 to March 1984—has varied from 66 per cent. in the Gwynedd LCAC to 72 per cent. for the west Wales LCAC. I remind my hon. Friend that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State took care in his guidelines for the formation of the consumer committees to provide that if a member failed to attend three consecutive meetings he would lose his membership.

I congratulate Conservative Members on the well-rehearsed nature of that question and answer. Does the Under-Secretary of State not accept that constituents in all parts of Wales face nothing but frustration because of the inability to identify those with whom they should take up questions about the water industry? Would it not be much more satisfactory to have direct answerability of the water authority in Wales by means of direct election?

I notice that the hon. Gentleman has at least changed his tactic. Not so long ago he was leading his troops like the Grand Old Duke of York. At great expense, he had brought them down again, having achieved nothing. The hon. Gentleman is now making a completely different proposal for an elected body. We have in the LCACs first-class committees which represent all kinds of interests — from farmers to industrial, commercial, domestic and fishing consumers — and a reformed authority as well.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are unemployed in Wales compared with 1979 as a total and as a percentage; and, of the total unemployed, how many are long-term unemployed.

On 13 September 1984 unemployed claimants totalled 181,927 compared with 79,604 in September 1979, an increase of 102,323, or 128·5 per cent. Of the September 1984 total, 72,720 had been unemployed for over a year. Comparable figures for 1979 are not available.

In Wales, male unemployment now runs at 20 per cent. and the long-term unemployment figures are a hideous scar on our beleaguered communities. We hold the right hon. Gentleman to be in many ways responsible for those figures. Does he understand that the Welsh people are desperately worried about unabated unemployment? What are the Government's plans for a controlled expansion of the economy and an expansion of the budgets of, say, housing and the development agency in Wales? Is not the unadjusted jobless figure of 181,000 demoralising not only to all the Welsh people but to the right hon. Gentleman's Department?

I understand and share the worry of the Welsh people. It is absolutely justified. The economy is steadily expanding and, what is more, the industrial structure of Wales is being steadily transformed—in the way in which the hon. Gentleman has been arguing recently — in the direction of the new technologies. I believe that that is the right way in which to proceed and that it offers the best hope for the future.

Does the right hon. Gentleman hope to be able to give some good news to the long-term unemployed of mid-Wales by an announcement that the British Government will meet the offer of the Dutch Government to Laura Ashley Ltd. so that Laura Ashley can expand in Newtown as it wishes?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the European Community rules on regional assistance impose certain constraints on the offers that can be made. The constraints differ between development and non-development areas. Negotiations with the company are continuing between the Department of Trade and Industry, my Department and Mid-Wales Development. I hope that they will lead to a substantial investment by the company. I cannot, however, give any firm information at the present time.

Why do the Jeremiahs and miserable Opposition Members always slosh around in the despairs of the unemployment figures? Should they not concentrite more on another statistic—the fact that in Europe as a whole this country has employed a higher percentage of the total work force available for work than has any other EEC country except Denmark?

I do not blame the Opposition for expressing a concern that we all share, but I think that everyone in Europe should ask himself why the uneployment figures in Britain are higher than those in the United States. The United States has been much more successful in responding to change, in adjusting wage levels to output demands and in encouraging the development of new industries and service sectors. There are lessons to be learnt from the experience in the United States, and we in this country and people in the rest of Europe should learn them.

If the Secretary of State has looked closely at the unemployment figures, as I hope he has, he will have seen that my constituency, Cynon Valley, has the highest male unemployment in the whole of Wales. Will he consider giving Cynon Valley the special development area status for which we have asked for many years? So far he has turned a deaf ear to those requests. When are we to see the results of the Secretary of State's frequent overseas jaunts?

Decisions about regional policy have not yet been taken but should be announced very shortly.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the total value of grants which Wales has received from the European regional development fund in each of the last three years and in the current year to date.

Net commitments for 1981, 1982 and 1983 were £24·8 million, £47·3 million and £45·1 million respectively. Commitments in the current year to date are £31·3 million.

Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the people of Wales are aware of that large measure of assistance from the fund to the Welsh economy?

Undoubtedly those very large sums have been of great value in helping us to fund the kinds of infrastructure improvements that Opposition Members have been urging this afternoon. The total indentifiable Community commitment so far, including the European regional development fund and all the other forms of assistance, amounts to well over £1,330 million. That is a very substantial sum.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with local authorities in Wales regarding the funding of urban development programmes.

My officials are in regular touch with all authorities in Wales about their urban programme and urban development grant schemes and the resources available.

Is my hon. Friend aware that those local authorities which managed to comply with the somewhat abrupt request from the Welsh Office that they should cut their capital programmes in mid-stream now feel, having done so, that the Welsh Office is under a strong obligation to look very favourably at their programmes for next year for urban development, particularly in Colwyn?

I remind my hon. Friend that there has been no question of their being asked to cut their programmes. As my right hon. Friend said earlier, it is for them to decide on priorities. My hon. Friend will also be aware that there is very fierce competition for the resources that are available in the urban programme and UDG schemes.

Is the Minister aware that the local authorities in Wales realise that, unless they bow to the tremedous pressure that is put on them, they will find themselves forced to cut their programmes? With regard to urban aid, does the Minister realise that many authorities, because of the financial pressure that the Government have put on them, are unable to fund the 25 per cent. that they need to find and are therefore not getting the opportunities they should be getting?

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that that has not in any way abated the tremendous competition from local authorities, which I welcome, for worthwhile schemes.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new local authority homes were completed in Wales in the last 12 months for which figures are available.

Provisional figures for the 12-month period to July 1984 show that 1,825 local authority dwellings were completed.

Is the Minister aware that that record is the worst housing record for the past 50 or 60 years and that an intolerable burden has been placed on people in the Principality—who want adequate housing—with rising waiting lists and increasing homelessness? Is it the people in Wales who are seeking a living and a just society, with adequate reward, who are the enemy within, or, if there is an enemy within, is it not the Cabinet, of which the Secretary of State for Wales is a member?

That is an incredible series of non sequiturs. Let me assure the hon. Gentleman that we have not sought to establish a record in house building in Wales. He will, of course, be aware that both the Government and local authorities place the emphasis on rehabilitation of older dwellings, which is quite right, because the 1981 survey showed that about 12 per cent. of private sector stock was unfit, compared to 1 per cent. of public sector stock.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the latest figure for the number of young people who left school in Wales in summer 1984; and how many of these have so far found employment.

Detailed information is not available. However, in respect of 16-year-olds eligible to leave school this year, 76 per cent. in that category have continued in full-time education or in some form of training.

Does the Minister not realise that people believe that those figures are not available because the Government deliberately want to hide them, as they are so embarrassing? Does he further realise that, of the increase of 14,000 unemployed people in Wales in the month of September, almost 7,000 were school leavers, and that, with 12,000 school leavers under the age of 18 unemployed in Wales, the level of school leaver unemployment there is 50 per cent. higher than the United Kingdom average? When will the Government start doing something about that?

The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Rowlands) must be aware that the reason why figures are not available is that although a good deal of information is collected, it is a complex and time-consuming task to produce and flows from several different sources. The effect of a decision by any individual school student about his future takes time to feed through and, even now, many will not have taken final decisions or implemented them. Therefore, to jump off in a half-baked way on incomplete figures shows the superficiality of the approach by Opposition Members.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement about the coal and steel industries in Wales.

As a result of the current dispute the coal industry in south Wales has lost 33 weeks of operation, 4·2 million tonnes of coal and each miner has lost on average £4,500 in wages. In addition, future prospects may have been damaged and markets put in jeopardy. The Welsh steel industry has maintained its operations.

Is it not a wicked cruelty to the miners of Wales that Mr. Arthur Scargill insists on maintaining this strike, when the National Coal Board has done everything that it can to seek a conclusion to it? Is it not a fact that to rehabilitate and bring pits in south Wales back to working order would now cost £10 million? Is not that figure increasing all the time, which must further jeopardise the likelihood of jobs in south Wales pits?

The strike must be jeopardising the future of several pits. The NCB accepted the formula put forward by the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service as a reasonable basis following discussions, but, regrettably, the National Union of Mineworkers rejected that formula. That is where we stand now. I believe that the formula put forward by ACAS forms a reasonable basis for a settlement, and it is regrettable that the NUM and Mr. Arthur Scargill are apparently prepared to press on with this deeply damaging strike, regardless of the consequences.

Is the Secretary of State not aware that his Government appointed Ian MacGregor, the geriatric person of 72, to run the coal industry, when he had no knowledge of it? Is he further aware that it is not Arthur Scargill but the elected members of the national executive committee who make decisions about the strike? It is time that the Government accepted their responsibilities and, having appointed another person in place of Ian MacGregor, they should try to get the miners, the NUM and everybody else to reach a long-overdue settlement of this strike.

The hon. Gentleman talks about elections. It is a pity that he does not talk about ballots and persuade the miners to have a ballot.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales by what percentage the number of (a) inpatients and (b) outpatients treated annually in Wales has risen since 1978.

The number of inpatients and outpatients treated annually in Wales rose by 12·5 per cent. and 17·1 per cent. respectively between 1978 and 1983.

I thank my hon. Friend for that information. Are not those figures the best possible proof of the growth and improvement in the health services in Wales, of which another example is the new hospital being built in my constituency?

Yes, I am glad to agree with my hon. Friend. We have provided a record level of financial resources for the National Health Service in Wales. The number of front-line staff—doctors, dentists, nurses and so on — also increased by 15·7 per cent. between 1979–80 and 1983–84, and that has meant that we have been able to treat more people.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the effect of the miners' strike on the economy of south Wales.

Industry in south Wales generally is continuing to operate without serious disruption. The effect of the miners' strike is primarily on the coal industry itself and related businesses.

Does my right hon. Friend agree that severe effects are now being felt by small businesses, related businesses, local authorities, banks, building societies and others who are not being paid? Does he further agree that there is a danger of there being an image abroad of an unreliable and militant labour force, especially when we are looking for new overseas firms to come to the south Wales coalfield?

I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that, during my recent visit to Japan, I found that all Japanese companies with plants that operate over here clearly understand that the miners' strike has had no effect on their businesses and that the strike is not a true picture of ordinary industrial relations in Britain. It is nevertheless true that the strike is beginning to have an effect on consumption generally and especially on small traders, particularly in mining areas. The strike must be damaging for them and for job prospects in those areas.

Does the Secretary of State appreciate that it is because entire communities are threatened that miners in south Wales are determined to fight to win? All the sectors of the community mentioned by the hon. Member for Cardiff, Central (Mr. Grist), such as small businesses, local authorities and social institutions, depend on local employment. If that local employment goes, the community dies. Will the Secretary of State understand that that is at the heart of the mining dispute?

All industries, such as the steel industry, and production industry generally, and our country, depend on being competitive and on having fuel at competitive prices. The strike can only damage the economy if it continues. I am glad, however, that, thanks to the good sense of those involved, the British steel industry continues to produce steel, and that last week at Port Talbot there was a record for one-day production. That is good news in the middle of these difficulties.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his latest estimate of the number of new units of accommodation necessary to meet anticipated demand over the next three years in Wales; and if he will make a statement on whether resources will be available to meet that demand.

Any assessment must be subject to a great many uncertainties; but we believe at present that about 11,000 new units a year might be needed. The private sector will make its own judgment about the demand for new housing and how to meet it. Future resources for new build in the public sector will largely depend on the priorities that local authorities place on other forms of capital expenditure.

Does that not amount to an abdication of responsibility? Does the Welsh Office understand the need to set the demand from the public and private sectors against the supply, and which body can co-ordinate that other than the Welsh Office?

There is no abdication of responsibility. We acknowledge the role of the public sector. In the current year local authorities are expected to build about 1,450 houses. In addition, there will be about 500 of new build by the Housing Corporation, and we are assisting the building of another 378 houses through the urban development grant. The private sector is expected to contribute about 3,360 dwellings, but, as I said earlier, it is entirely for the local authorities to decide their priorities for capital spend and to decide how much of their spending will be on new build.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, whether consideration of the future of the redundant church of St. Albans, Teddington, has yet been referred to the redundant churches fund; and how soon the commissioners expect to be informed of any decision of the fund.

The commissioners, with whom the final decision rests, await the advice of the advisory board for redundant churches. The board is now consulting the fund.

Although my hon. Friend, as a commissioner, cannot prejudge the advisory board's advice, is he aware that my constituents expect me to look ahead? Will he therefore take note that if, in the end, the redundant churches fund is unable to raise the large sum required to preserve St. Albans the public will not find it easy to accept that the only alternative is demolition, and that it would be wise then to hold a public inquiry? I hope that, in that event, the commissioners will consider that suggestion favourably.

I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for appreciating that I have to be careful today, on behalf of the commissioners, not to prejudge the decision. However, I can most willingly confirm that there is always great sensitivity to the anxiety of local people. While I do not anticipate the decision for a moment, I totally accept that, in some events, one possible way of proceeding would be to hold a non-statutory public inquiry.

Will the commissioner tell his colleagues that what is happening in Teddington and other areas is making it increasingly difficult to continue to defend the ecclesiastical exemption in this House?

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman takes that view about the case to which the question refers, and to which I must limit myself. The enormous care that there has been, and the detailed consultation that has taken place, show that local considerations and all other aspects have been considered in the greatest possible detail.

Will my hon. Friend and his colleagues look carefully at the criteria for redundancy? Will he accept that many worshipping Christians obtain more inspiration from the buildings than from the preachers?

Yes, but I think that even the most stimulating preacher is put off if the building is crumbling around his ears.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what plans the commissioners have to introduce private participation in any matter within their responsibilities.

The work of the commissioners already involves much private participation, both professional and lay. For example, in recent years, church people have much increased their financial support for the work of the parochial clergy.

I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. It is a matter of record that participation by members of the public at local churches has been diminishing over the years. In Leicestershire, for instance, out of a population of 880,000, fewer than 65,000 now attend. It would be helpful if further encouragement could be given and if, perhaps, small and local businesses could contribute to the funds of the churches.

I am receptive to any of my hon. Friend's ideas on this matter. He should be a little careful about attendances, as many more people still go to church on Sundays than go to football matches on Saturdays.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what contributions the Church Commissioners make towards the cost of running the General Synod; and if he will make a statement.

The commissioners make no direct contribution.

Are not bishops and clergy, who are members of the General Synod, paid by the Church Commissioners? Will my hon. Friend ensure that no Church Commissioners' funds are used to finance expenses that arise from the heretical activities of some bishops?

No member of the General Synod is, by virtue of his membership, paid by the Church Commissioners. The clergy members and bishop members are, of course, paid by the commissioners. I note my hon. Friend's point. I hope he will remember that there are 43 diocesan bishops. It is a little unhappy to fasten on the activities of only one.

asked the hon. Member for Taunton, as Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission, whether, in the search for a single headquarters building for the National Audit Office, consideration was given to locating the National Audit Office within the area of the London Docklands Development Corporation.

Yes, Sir. However, the National Audit Office urgently needed a single headquarters near the Palace of Westminster and the main offices of the departments and other bodies which the Comptroller and Auditor General is required to audit. This need excluded the docklands and many other areas. In practice, no suitable building was available in the docklands.

May I compliment my hon. Friend on answering his first official question for just over 20 years, and observe that I find his answer rather unsatisfactory? Does he agree that the overwhelming majority of the staff who occupy the new building at Victoria, which British Airways found difficult to dispose of — it was probably glad to see an easy buyer—are clerks and the like who do not need to be close to the Palace of Westminster?

No, Sir. The matter is not as simple as that. It has been the subject of continuous recommendations by the Public Accounts Committee to the House that a single office should be found in a central location to replace the 28 offices that are currently occupied by the staff of the Exchequer and Audit Department, now the National Audit Office. Some 23 different locations were examined and this proposal has the Treasury's support. I am quite satisfied that, ultimately, the process of audit and obtaining value for money, in which the House is especially interested, will be much enhanced by this important move.

Will the hon. Gentleman consider 35 Great Smith street — which belongs to the Ministry of Defence, has now been empty for more than 12 months and which is 20 yards from the Department of the Environment and 20 yards from the Department of Trade and Industry — as a possible means of relieving the Secretary of State for Defence of a white elephant that looks like continuing on lease for another 22 years?

I hope that I have shown that all possible premises were examined under the advice of the Property Services Agency and consultants from the private sector. I am satisfied that the right decision was made. It would be a mistake to begin that process all over again.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what recent discussions the Government have had in connection with European Music Year 1985.

My right hon. and noble Friend has had discussions recently both with Mr. John Manduell, the deputy chairman of the United Kingdom committee for European Music Year, and with Sir William Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the Arts Council.

As European Music Year 1985 has now begun to take off with 1,000 approved projects in 23 countries, will the Government emphasise that it is intended largely to awaken interest in music among young people? Will the Government stress its educational aspects, and will my hon. Friend consider referring to that at the forthcoming press conference that he is to hold with the Duke of Kent on 6 December?

The answer to the last part of the question is yes. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his contribution to the council of this major and exciting enterprise. In answer to the first part of his question, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science tells me that his Department will send out a circular letter in due course which will emphasise the importance of the year to schools.

Will the Parliamentary Under-Secretary bear in mind that much of the good work done in schools to encourage music-making ends when pupils leave school because they do not have access to instruments or ensembles in which to play? Will he use the opportunity of this special year to encourage the continuity of music-making across the bridge from school to adult life?

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, which I shall certainly draw to the attention of my right hon. and noble Friend.

In connection with the European Music Year, will my hon. Friend pay tribute to the amount of sponsorship from the private sector? Will he formally announce that sponsorship for the arts is running at £14 million, which is a record and should be encouraged?

I am happy to recognise that major contribution, in particular for this year. Projects under the European Music Year are eligible for the new pound for pound matching scheme which my right hon. and noble Friend recently announced. My hon. Friend was right to pay tribute to the private sector.

Will the Minister bear in mind that Handel is one of the musicians to be honoured next year? Will he explain why the Arts Council has agreed to extend the grant to the Handel Opera for next year but will wipe it out the year after? What sort of celebration is that?

As the hon. Gentleman knows, how the Arts Council spends its money is a matter for it. The Arts Council and the Opera must discuss that.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts whether he has had any representations during the past three months from the chairman of the Welsh Arts Council concerning the adequacy of funds for that council to undertake its responsibilities.

My right hon. and noble Friend has had no such representations.

Will the Minister check that answer, in view of the memorandum prepared by the Welsh Arts Council in the second half of July, which stated that the problems of the Welsh Arts Council are exacerbated by the serious underfunding that it is suffering, that that leads to problems with drama, especially mainstream drama, in Wales, that the visual arts in Wales receive inadequate money, and that the pressure on local authority finance means that the problems facing the arts in Wales are serious? Will he reconsider this matter?

I know that the problems are well recognised, especially the problems for funding, of having the dual cultural arts system which I am sure is important to the hon. Gentleman.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what measures the Government are taking to promote the crafts; and if he will make a statement.

Promotion of crafts is a matter for the Crafts Council. My right hon. and noble Friend has every confidence that under its new chairman and director the council will continue to pursue its policies with vigour.

As all good artists have first been good craftsmen, does my hon. Friend agree that unless we encourage our craftsmen with more vigour, understanding and reward, we shall have fewer good artists?

That is a challenging generalisation, which I am sure has much truth in it. It is for that reason that the Crafts Council receives Government funding.

Will my hon. Friend take this opportunity to pay tribute to the craftsmen who are responsible for the restoration work to the Palace of Westminster, especially the Chamber of the House of Lords?

I am delighted that my hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to pay tribute to the work, which is truly remarkable and magnificent.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what representations he has received regarding the future of the Riverside Studios.

My right hon. and noble Friend received a few letters in the consultation period following the publication of the Government's proposals for the GLC. None have been received recently.

Is the Minister aware that the GLC funds the Riverside Studios to the extent of £420,000 a year and the Arts Council to the extent of £100,000 a year, and that the Riverside Studios has received a letter stating that, in the event of the abolition of the GLC, Hammersmith borough council will not replace the GLC money? Does he realise that that will be repeated across London, as borough after borough that has been rate-capped refuses to, or cannot, subsidise the theatres in London that are currently subsidised by the GLC, thus making nonsense of his proposals for the arts in London?

Of course I am aware of those facts, as, more importantly, is the Arts Council. I know that the hon. Gentleman has little shame, but in view of the vandalism that the GLC has just perpetrated on the Hayward gallery, I thought that we should have heard less from him for the time being.

That is a highly inadequate answer. The truth is that throughout the Greater London area arts activities—music, theatre and dance—are under threat because of the monstrous proposals of the Government who, out of political pique, are trying to wipe out the artistic efforts of this city. Will the Minister reconsider the matter and withdraw the proposals?

I agree that on this occasion the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) needed the protection of his Front Bench spokesman, although it is unusual to find them on the same side at all. The Government have made available funds to overcome the difficulties for the arts, which are well recognised, and the Arts Council is aware of the problem of the Riverside Studios.