asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to ensure that there is adequate recognition in deciding on the allocation of finance to area health authorities in Wales of sparsity of population, the impact of tourism and costs associated with elderly population migration.

My right hon. Friend already takes these factors into account.

Does the Minister appreciate that the Gwynedd area health authority does not accept that sufficient account is taken of these factors? The sparsity of clinics leads to high travelling costs and a high-cost ambulance service, for example, especially at a time when there is emphasis on bringing services into the community. No account is taken of the additional tourist population that moves into Gwynedd during the summer months. A consequence of the Government's policy is that the elderly are moving into old-age homes in Gwynedd. Private homes are being established as a result of Government policy, but no additional funds are being given to the health authority or local authorities to deal with the extra costs. Will the Minister think again?

I do not know what Gwynedd has to complain about. Gwynedd has seen more financial growth than any other Welsh authority since 1974. During the period 1974 to 1983 the Gwynedd health authority's recurrent revenue allocation has grown by 32·8 per cent. after making allowances for pay and price changes. This year it has already had further growth of 5·5 per cent. and another 2·6 per cent. is available. I have already told the hon. Gentleman that the revenue formula is weighted to take account of the age and sex structure of the populations served and of the relative costs of providing an ambulance service in rural areas. There is a special allowance for tourism.

Does my hon. Friend appreciate that the special problems—[Interruption.]

Order. Members representing English constituencies have a right to ask questions when the House is dealing with Welsh questions, provided that they do not relate to Grantham.

Will my hon. Friend note that the special problems that arise in widely and sparsely populated areas are not confined to Welsh area health authorities? Similar problems arise in English counties, and those who represent English counties, such as Lincolnshire, would like to see the rate support grant take account of that fact.

The Secretary of State for Wales cannot answer for English counties.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he is satisfied that the procedures adopted by the National Museum of Wales for purchasing major works of art, such as the Rubens' cartoons, are satisfactory.

Decisions regarding the acquisition of works of art or any other purchases are matters entirely for the museum authorities.

Is the Secretary of State satisfied that £1·2 million of public money should be spent on the say-so of one expert? There are several questions which the right hon. Gentleman should answer. First, where were the cartoons for over 400 years? Secondly, why were they offered to the National Museum of Wales when the strength of the museum is in post-impressionist and impressionist painters? Thirdly, how can the right hon. Gentleman not urge that their authenticity be established one way or the other when he knows that there has been doubt about them for five years?

I cannot help the hon. Lady on the 400-year issue, as I think that the cartoons were probably painted just over 350 years ago. The strength of the collections of the National Museum of Wales is with impressionist painters, and that is why the museum has sought to strengthen its collections in other areas. The art committee and the museum authorities take considerable care and much advice over the difficult decisions involved in art purchasing. I am satisfied that under the royal charter it is for the museum authorities, not Ministers, to take those decisions.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has any proposals for increasing the funds available to mid-Wales development for the purpose of industrial development in mid-Wales; and if he will make a statement.

No decisions have yet been made on the board's financial allocation for 1985–86.

When is the Development Board for Rural Wales to know the funds that it is to have? Does the Minister recognise that, with the decline in dairy farming in mid-Wales, the board's role in providing the wherewithal for jobs in the future is needed more than ever?

I cannot give a firm date for when that decision will be made. As the hon. and learned Gentleman is aware, the board's basic role has been to develop the industrial infrastructure of its area, for precisely the reasons that he stated.

Does my hon. Friend believe that the opening up of the mid-Wales development factories for service industries, which I welcomed when the change was made, is having a beneficial effect on the utilisation of those factories?

My answer is brief: yes, it is an advantage.

I am sure that the Minister and the whole House will not think it appropriate for me to ask a question about mid-Wales without referring to my late predecessor, Lord Maelor, and putting on record the appreciation of his constituents for his long and devoted service to Merioneth.

I am sorry that I cannot go much further than I did a few moments ago, but we hope to be able to announce a decision soon. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's last point. Conservative Members would like to add their tribute to those paid to the former Member for Merioneth.

Is my hon. Friend aware of the extreme worry felt in Glen Dhu at the possibility of its losing intermediate area status? Will he guarantee that its status will not change?

No, I cannot anticipate any decision that will be taken on this matter. I am aware that people are looking forward to the decision in the not-toodistant future.

Why did the Government deschedule the new town area several years ago?

I have noted that point, but, as the House knows, other arrangements have been of great benefit to mid-Wales.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent discussions with the chairman of the British Steel Corporation about the corporation's activities in Wales.

I met the chairman of the British Steel Corporation last week. We had a wide-ranging discussion about the corporation's operations.

Should not the Secretary of State be discussing with the chairman of BSC the 5,000 new jobs that were to be created following the slimline operation? Bearing in mind that 8,000 jobs overall have been lost in Newport alone, is it any wonder that the Newport borough council has lost all confidence in the Secretary of State? Why will the right hon. Gentleman not allocate the resources to provide those new jobs, which he promised originally?

The fact is that Llanwern has been doing spectacularly well and showing itself to be a competitive steelworks. I am sorry that the current coal dispute is holding up decisions about future investment there. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about new jobs, may I ask whether he supports the action of the Newport, East Labour party which passed a resolution urging Gwent county council that lorries supplying Llanwern should be blacked after the strike? Is such action helpful in providing jobs?

Is not one of the most inspiring things that has happened in the Principality the splendid effort of the management and employees at all levels to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of steel production at Llanwern and Port Talbot? Will my right hon. Friend emphasise that aspect to the British Steel Corporation and his colleagues in the Cabinet at all times when the future of the United Kingdom's steel industry is considered?

I assure my hon. Friend that that point does not have to be emphasised to the British Steel Corporation, which is very much aware of it. I discussed those matters last week with the chairman. He shares my pleasure that Llanwern has put up such a magnificent performance despite the grave difficulties of the coal miners' dispute. I think that the fact that Llanwern can remain competitive in such conditions provides the best guarantee for its future.

In view of what my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Hughes) said about employment losses in the industry, and what the Secretary of State has said about the profitability of the industry, can the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the British Steel Corporation in Wales will not be saddled with the costs of the coal miners' strike?

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that one of the major costs of the steel industry is energy, which is one of the central issues in the coal miners' strike. I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Government are making a massive capital investment at Port Talbot at present and that there has been a substantial investment at Shotton, which is now the largest strip steel coating centre in Britain.

As coal is vital to Llanwern, I imagine that my right hon. Friend will welcome the sight of coal trains running again in south Wales. Does he agree that we must all look forward to a return to coal production in south Wales as the miners continue to vote with their feet?

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. The numbers returning to the coal industry this week continue to rise. Therefore, we must hope that a full return to work will not be long delayed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many unemployed people there are in Wales compared with 1979 as a total and as a percentage of the total; and how many are long-term unemployed.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many people are unemployed in Wales at present compared with the 1979 figures; and how many of these are long-term unemployed.

On 11 October 1984 unemployment claimants totalled 178,561, compared with 78,739 in October 1979, an increase of 99,822 or 126·8 per cent. Of the October 1984 total, 71,902 had been unemployed for over a year. Comparable figures for 1979 are not available.

Following that set of figures, the autumn statement was a crushing disappointment to the unemployed in Wales. Will the Secretary of State take an urgent initiative and chair an all-Wales conference aimed, at creating new jobs by means of a programme of additional public works? Will he invite, for example, the Wales TUC, the CBI, county and district authorities and Members of the Houses of Parliament to such a conference? May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that, under his regime, since 1979 Wales has lost 100,000 manufacturing jobs and suffered more than 145,000 redundancies? The people of Wales need hope and a change of policy.

I do not believe that hope and a change of policy would necessarily be the results of the kind of talking shop which the hon. Gentleman wishes to establish. I am glad to say that the numbers in employment have begun to rise and that this year, in the period from January to October, there were 11,000 new jobs associated with projects for which selective financial assistance applications had been accepted, compared with 8,800 in the whole of 1983. That is one of the many signs that substantial investment in new projects is taking place in Wales, and that, of course, offers the best hope for new jobs.

Why did the Secretary of State want to juggle the unemployment figures once again? Was it for the primary purpose of trying to allow constituency Members of Parliament to have accurate figures of the unemployment position? If so, I should like to draw his attention to the fact that for a number of months I have complained about 8,000 people being out of work in Ogmore and there being only 100 jobs at the jobcentre. I have analysed the new figures that have been presented, and I should like to know why there are now 4,907 people out of work in the Ogmore constituency and only eight jobs at the jobcentre. Surely that alone shows that the information continually being given at Welsh Question Time is misleading or completely misrepresenting the facts that are presented to us week after week and month after month.

I have given the facts for which the hon. Gentleman asked. I am aware that Bridgend is one of the areas that have been most successful in attracting new projects. I am glad to say that that continues to be the position and that it is providing a substantial number of additional jobs.

In the interests of jobs in Wales, will my right hon. Friend continue to urge south Wales miners to follow their colleagues in Yorkshire and elsewhere rather than the headstrong, self-willed and political ambition of one man who clearly has no interest in the future of the coal industry in south Wales?

I agree. I understand that the lion. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) attended the disgraceful conference at Aberavon, during which the general secretary of the TUC was shouted clown. Furthermore, I understand that the hon. Gentleman spoke during the conference. I hope that he, like the general secretary, condemned the violence and urged that a ballot be held, particularly as in his part of Wales many miners have voted with their feet and returned to work.

Can my right hon. Friend estimate the number of jobs in Wales that have been lost permanently, not temporarily, as a result of the loss of markets caused by Mr. Scargill's politically motivated strike?

Undoubtedly, that must be one of the most worrying features. The losers will be principally the miners and the mining industry, because it is more difficult to recover lost markets than to hold on to existing markets. I am afraid that the strike will cause great long-term damage.

With regard to the appalling figures which the Secretary of State has announced, when the new regional policy is announced, will the areas in Wales most hard hit by mass unemployment have an increase in assistance and regional aid in real terms?

I am glad to hear that Opposition Members are trying to end the dispute. I hope that they will speak out loud and clear for a ballot and condemn the violence, and the disgraceful scenes that we saw at Aberavon, as clearly as the general secretary of the TUC has done.

Will the Secretary of State explain his continuing disinterest in the whole of the coal industry in Wales, which has been exemplified by his failure even to attend pit premises during the whole period that he has been Secretary of State? Does he not think it right that, when we have this anguished situation, instead of corroborating the confrontist and provocative attitude of our turbulent Prime Minister, he should pay a tribute to the sense of community, solidarity and loyalty that are among our values in south Wales? Irrespective of the judgment that one makes, as was said by a former Conservative Prime Minister in the House, such values need to be sustained, not condemned, by a Secretary of State if this nation is to survive.

If we are to talk about moral stands, I agree with Mr. Alan Watkins, who wrote in The Observer that

"the scenes at Aberavon last week were a disgrace to the Labour movement."

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what discussions he has had with local authorities regarding public transport developments.

My right hon. Friend and I have agreed to meet the standing conference on regional policy in south Wales to discuss its response to our consultation paper "Local Choice in Public Transport".

As the Welsh Counties Committee, the Association of District Councils and everybody else in Wales, except a few potential cowboy operators, oppose the deregulation of buses, will the Minister examine the possibility of a franchise system instead?

I cannot speak for cowboy operators. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can. The Welsh Office document is a genuine consultation paper. We shall consider all aspects of the matter in a genuine spirit of consultation, but I hold out no hope for the semi-monopoly franchise system proposed by some Labour Members.

Will my hon. Friend assure the House that after deregulation safety standards will not just be maintained, as the consultation paper promises, but will be considerably tightened? Is he aware that even private operators realise that the existing total of 42 examiners to monitor 10,000 public service vehicles in the northwestern traffic area is grossly inadequate?

The Government have absolutely no intention of allowing safety standards to be eroded in any way.

Does the Minister agree that the effect of the Government's proposals so far will be to denude much of rural Wales of bus services, unless public money is put into public transport in those areas? Will he ensure that there is no reduction whatever in the provision of bus services in Powys as a result of Government policy?

The difficulty about the hon. and learned Gentleman's question is that all the complaints are to the effect that the services have already declined, whereas he makes it sound as though flourishing services were about to disappear. Our proposals will provide an opportunity for more flexible systems to be developed for the benefit of rural users.

In view of the welcome given to the consultative document by the Welsh Consumer Council, when my hon. Friend meets the local authorities will he urge them to start thinking positively about the opportunities presented there for cheaper bus fares, and even for new railway services?

There will be discussion on both those points. We genuinely believe that competition will not only improve matters generally but will achieve better value for money and cheaper fares.

What is the Minister's response to the view of the Transport Users Consultative Committee for Wales, which clearly stated that there would be a net loss of public transport throughout Wales as a result of the proposals in the consultative document?

That is assertion and speculation without any backing whatever.

Even at this late stage, will the Minister take steps to exclude Wales from the privatisation measures, which we believe will involve job losses, a decline in road safety and in reliability of services and the prospect of higher fares? Does he not realise that the likely result of these measures will be the denudation of rural Wales in terms of public transport services?

No, Sir.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what was the expenditure on books per pupil in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools in West Glamorgan, Mid-Glamorgan and South Glamorgan in 1983–84; and what is the proposed expenditure for 1984–85.

As the answer is a long one I shall, with permission, circulate the details in the Official Report.

As the figures supplied to me by the Welsh counties show that two of the three for which I requested figures will spend less on books per primary school pupil this year than last year, and as two of the Welsh counties are at the bottom of the spending league in this respect out of all 47 non-metropolitan counties, will the Minister set a level of expenditure on books so that education standards can be guaranteed for the children of Wales in the future? Will the Minister give that undertaking today rather than the usual pat answer that it is for the local authority to decide, thus making scapegoats of the Welsh counties yet again?

The hon. Gentleman has indeed answered his own question, because, as he well knows, with his considerable experience in education, expenditure on school books is determined by the local education authorities. However, when allowance has been made for the effects of pay and price increases, the local authorities' current expenditure on education has remained at a virtually constant level for a number of years, while the number of pupils in schools has declined markedly. Those facts are not consistent with allegations of heavy cuts.

Does my hon. Friend agree that while books are an important element in the education of children, the standard and quality of teaching is even more important? In the three Glamorgan authorities, have not standards of teaching been irrepairably damaged by the notorious system of appointments and promotions in which a teacher's qualities are far less important than his relationship to the local Labour party?

I should like to reinforce the point that the number of pupils—[Interruption.] I am answering my hon. Friend's question, which relates to expenditure by LEAs, including expenditure on books. The number of pupils has dropped by nearly 12 per cent., but the number of teachers by only about 3 per cent. That being so, it is for the local education authorities to re-examine carefully their management and expenditure policies.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what is the number of people covered by the Government's special employment and training measures in Mid-Glamorgan.

The total for the county is 7,112, excluding the enterprise allowance scheme, for which there is no separate figure for Mid-Glamorgan.

Is the Minister aware that officials of the Manpower Services Commission are now directly involving themselves in the administration of the youth training scheme in Mid-Glamorgan? Does he approve of the practice increasingly adopted by those officials of giving the Mid-Glamorgan county council directions about which schemes to reduce, which mode B places to remove and which members of staff to sack? Can the Minister say whether this practice is based on a statement of policy or whether the MSC officials in Wales are conducting their affairs as they see fit?

I would hope that the Mid-Glamorgan authority and the MSC officials would act in close co-operation to achieve the best results obtainable.

Given the increasing importance of the MSC, should not responsibility for both the programme and the budget of the MSC in Wales be given to the Secretary of State for Wales, so that if there were underspends or differences of emphasis he could adjust the budget and the programme to suit the needs of Wales? At the moment it appears to be the Department of Employment, on a national level, which is in control.

We work in the closest co-operation with the Department of Employment. We have our own MSC committee for Wales with direct access, through Ministers, to the Department of Employment and to the MSC in Sheffield.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment he has made of the quality of stage carriage bus services in Wales if Her Majesty's Government's plans for deregulation are implemented.

My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport has already explained to the hon. Member and to the House that the recent White Paper on buses sets out the Government's reasons for removing the present system of road service licensing and their assessment of the beneficial effects of the proposals. Reference to the Government's proposals for the bus industry is made in paragraphs 14 and 15 of the consultation paper "Local Choice in Public Transport", a copy of which was sent to the hon. Gentleman.

Can the Minister give us a guarantee that, if the proposals are implemented, stage carriage bus services will not further decline?

I do not think that anyone could give such a guarantee. We want greater flexibility and more local choice. I should have thought that that would be welcome, especially in the context of what I said earlier about genuine consultation on these matters.

What assessment has been made of the concept of cross-subsidy, when it usually comes from passengers who are resident in the least well-off areas and benefits areas with a high car-owning population?

That illustrates why we want to get the maximum flexibility to achieve the fairest and most efficient transport provision in rural and urban areas.

Is the Minister aware that British Leyland assumes that there will be a substantial reduction in purchases of its vehicles if deregulation comes about? Is the Minister making way for cowboys in clapped-out vehicles, or will there be more inspection of vehicles?

Far from there being cowboys in clapped-out vehicles, current experience is of safety standards being increased because more modern vehicles are being used. Moreover, British Leyland, like the rest of British industry, must learn to adapt to the needs of the new system.

Is it possible for there to be greater consultation between bus operators, potential bus operators and those who control other services such as the distribution of mail, foods and other commodities, as obtains in some parts of France?

That would be very welcome. The greater flexibility that has been suggested in the consultation document could well lead to such a happy result.

Bearing in mind the fact that the Government plan to introduce private companies, which will come in only to take profits out of money available for buses, will the hon. Gentleman guarantee that local authorities will have that much more money to maintain services in rural areas which would otherwise be disadvantaged by the loss of cross-subsidy?

The financial provisions are broadly neutral with regard to local authorities. I find it surprising that a company that runs a profitable route should be criticised. We want profitable services, which will provide an efficient service, rather than loss-making services that can never succeed and will ultimately be withdrawn. We have already seen that pattern of decline.

Will the Minister take into consideration the fact that the transport committee of the Association of District Councils does not accept that radical changes are necessary for the road passenger transport industry? Indeed, it has expressed doubts about the knowledge of the people who have drawn up the proposals. In view of the general disquiet about the proposals, does the Minister agree that it would be wise for the Government to turn the White Paper into a Green Paper?

I see. I note what the hon. Gentleman says, but there are two separate papers for Wales and there is obvious confusion about them. The Green Paper issued by the Welsh Office is a Green Paper— [Interruption.] It is clear from much of what has been said that even hon. Members have completely confused the Green Paper and the White Paper. It is also clear from what has been said upstairs in Committee that the two have been confused. It is therefore right that the matter should be clarified.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales in which health authorities in Wales laundry and catering services have been put out to open tender.

As yet no authority has invited tenders for catering services, but the Pembrokeshire health authority has done so with regard to laundry services and has placed a contract. Decisions after tender on domestic services have also been reached by the Pembrokeshire and Powys health authorities and by the Welsh Health Technical Services Organisation.

What steps has my hon. Friend taken to encourage and, if necessary, force authorities to open their markets to the private sector?

Privatisation is its own reward. Total savings in excess of £250,000 annually are likely to accrue to the National Health Service as a result of the four tendering exercises so far conducted in Wales. I am generally satisfied with progress, but the Department is about to write to authorities commenting on the programmes which they submitted to me earlier this year.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales how many new factory units and how many square feet of factory space have been built by the Welsh Development Agency since its inception.

Between January 1976 and October 1984 inclusive, the Welsh Development Agency completed 1,201 advance factory units, 14 bespoke factory units and 82 factory extensions, totalling just over 9 million sq ft.

Will my right hon. Friend say what proportion of the factory units are unoccupied, and whether any have been unoccupied for as long as five years?

About 13·5 per cent. of the Welsh Development Agency total factory stock is now vacant and available for letting. The letting rate this year is extremely good. About 1·6 million sq ft of Government factory space has been let, which is an increase on last year's record figure.

asked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give the amount in constant prices spent on home improvement grants during (a) the last year for which figures are available and (b) 1978–79.

Spending by district councils in Wales on all forms of house renovation grant in 1978–79 amounted to £18·1 million. The provisional total for 1983–84 is £114·5 million. Both sums have been revalued to 1984–85 prices.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the best way to deal with the poor housing stock in Wales is through improvement grants, so long as those grants are given to those most in need? Does he accept that the almost tenfold increase in expenditure by the Government over that of the Labour Government in their last year of office demonstrates the Government's commitment to doing precisely that, and that any criticism from the Labour party is pure humbug?

I agree with my hon. Friend's last remark, and with the fact that the Government have spent considerably more than the Labour Government did on the improvement of houses in Wales. There is no doubt that our housing stock must be improved. We are likely to spend about £81 million on grants this year.

Does the Minister not understand that although the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Best) will improve the quality of housing, it will do nothing for those who do not have homes? What about investment in new housing?

The proportion of the total money allocated to be spent on improvement grants, new build and improving their own houses is entirely a matter for the local authorities. As well as the £81 million spent on grants, the local authorities in Wales will this year spend £34 million on new building and £44 million on improving their own council houses.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, what is the value of current pay and emoluments of beneficed clergy in the Church of England.

For the year from 1 April 1984 the Church Commissioners, as Central Stipends Authority, have recommended a national minimum stipend for incumbents of £6,500 per annum. In addition to the stipend, an incumbent is provided with a house, free of rent, rates, repairs and insurance.

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the improvement that those figures represent. Do the clergy work within spiritual and political guidelines and, if so, what are they?

No guidelines of either kind are laid down by those whom I represent this afternoon.

Cannot the hon. Gentleman recommend to the Church Commissioners a realistic increase in the stipend of the clergy because, in addition to their arduous duties, they must now endure the intellectually sterile and sanctimonious utterances of a mediocre nonentity— namely, the chairman of the Tory party?

I remind the hon. Gentleman, who follows these matters carefully, that the average stipend in the current year represents an increase over the previous one of 6·8 per cent. during a period when inflation was 4·5 per cent. Both clergy and laity are greatly stimulated by all the utterances of my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer).

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many redundant churches there are in the diocese of Durham.

Nineteen churches in Durham diocese have been declared redundant since the Pastoral Measure 1968 came into operation.

Does my hon. Friend accept that the number of redundant churches there is likely to rise if the clergy reflect their bishop's view of the resurrection and talk about a conjuring trick with bones? That phrase is grossly offensive to millions of bible-believing Christians. Does my hon. Friend also accept that the bishop's view about society, the economy and allegedly shoeless families are as eccentric and ill-founded as his theological views?

I should incur your wrath, Mr. Speaker, if I attempted to answer matters for which I am not answerable. I hope that my hon. Friend read the text of what was said—I expect that he has. I take the point about the actual formulation used. The Lord Bishop of Durham is now well able to answer for himself in another place, which is a great relief to me.

May I record that it is a great relief to the diocese of Durham that its bishop can answer ln the other place, rather than have the hon. Gentleman answering for him? Does the hon. Gentleman accept that many people in the diocese of Durham welcome the bishop's forthright views on the pressures invoked on families consequent upon the current strike?

I hope that the hon. Gentleman recognises that, not only today but previously, I have attempted to understand both sides. Perhaps he and I—he is much more qualified than I am in this matter—understand the difference between a quip or a phrase used round an academic table and instruction or guidance given by the bishop of a diocese.

As my hon. Friend is the nearest thing, with the possible exception of myself, to an English pope, will he tell us how many redundant bishops there are in the diocese of Durham?

None, yet, Sir.

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that churches in Durham and in many other places would be fuller, and the views of priests listened to with more respect, if more clergymen spoke with the clarity, conviction, courage and facts with which the Bishop of Durham recently addressed the nation?

Many members of the clergy attempt to do that faithfully in all the Christian churches.

Will my hon. Friend ensure that in future redundant churches are vested in the fund so that they can remain quiet places where orthodox believers can contemplate the fate of heretics?

My hon. Friend generally approves of the Church Commissioners' policy, which is, wherever possible, to find alternative living uses for those buildings.

Will not the social and enlightened message of the Bishop of Durham serve only to swell congregations throughout that county and, indeed, the entire northern region, where there is high unemployment? Will the hon. Gentleman have a word with the chairman of the Conservative party and tell him to stop bullying the bishops? They do not like it.

One could say many things about the 43 diocesan bishops of the Church of England, but one cannot say that they are capable of being bullied by my hon. Friend or by anyone else.

asked the hon. Member for Wokingham, as representing the Church Commissioners, how many redundant churches there are in the diocese of Leicester.

Nine churches in Leicester diocese have been declared redundant since the Pastoral Measure 1968 came into operation.

While thanking my hon. Friend for that answer, may I say that there may be many more redundant churches if women are admitted to the priesthood? Will he encourage the Church Commissioners to ensure that no churches are demolished after they are declared redundant, but are instead used for other purposes such as for the ethnic communities?

I have studied carefully the list of churches in Leicester. My hon. Friend will know of the great care that has been taken to find alternative living uses where that is possible. As to the first part of his question, I do not believe that this afternoon, after what has happened, I should touch women.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts how many times the Minister for the Arts met the chairman of the English National Opera prior to the commencement of the company's North American tour to discuss financial arrangements; what indications were given of likely financial support for the tour from the Government; and if he is considering providing additional funds to assist the English National Opera to meet the £700,000 tour deficit.

My right hon. and noble Friend met the chairman of the ENO informally on four occasions before the tour; no indication of Government financial support was given. The deficit on the tour is a matter for the Arts Council and the company.

Is the Minister aware that according to the minutes of the ENO board the Minister for the Arts

"emphasised the Government's desire for the tour to go ahead"

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's remarks is correct. The Minister hoped that the tour would take place. Indeed, it was a triumphant success. The records show that the Minister did not offer Government support in advance of the tour. When the money-raising went wrong, and as on other occasions and with other companies, he offered his good offices to raise private money to help, but that is a very different matter.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) has rendered a service to the Minister for the Arts by leaking those minutes to the press, because after reading them no reasonable person could conclude that any pledge of Government finance had been given? Having said that, in view of the phenomenal success of the ENO tour in the United States, and given that the company was let down by certain Amercian sponsors, will my hon. Friend ask his right hon. and noble Friend to launch an appeal, publicly and privately funded, to meet this deficit and to save this company, which has made such great contributions to our cultural life?

My right hon. Friend's initial remarks are entirely right. I again confirm that the tour was a tremendous success. My right hon. and noble Friend has already taken some steps to help find private money, and I shall report to him the idea that my right hon. Friend has put forward.

It is not good enough for the Minister to give the answer that he has. Like others, I have seen the minutes, and there is no doubt whatever that the tour went ahead with the encouragement of the Minister. Therefore, as a matter of honour, the Minister for the Arts has a moral duty to help the company. It would not have undertaken the tour without his prior imprimatur. The Minister's honour is now at stake. It is insufficient to leave this to private funds. The Government must come clean and meet the deficit.

That is not fair. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) more accurately described what happened. The ENO knew perfectly well that Arts Council funds cannot be used for foreign touring. My right hon. and noble Friend wanted the tour to go ahead, as we all did. Now that the ENO has been let down by some of the American backers who promised it money, my right hon. and noble Friend and a number of others are seeing what can be done to help.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will encourage individual museums and galleries which wish to make entrance charges.

The Government's policy is to leave to the trustees' discretion whether to introduce general admission charges for the main collections at the national museums and galleries. My right hon. and noble Friend will encourage suitable programmes of self-help, which could include admission charges, if the trustees wish to propose these.

Does my hon. Friend agree that charging can enable museums and galleries to become more exciting places to visit, particularly for families? If charging can enable museums and galleries to maintain their treasures and to replenish their store by buying others, is there any good reason why those in work who are prepared to pay, and tourists, should not pay entrance charges to museums?

There have been charges for many of the most successful special exhibitions in recent years, but it is the Government's policy to leave the initiative in such matters to the museum trustees.

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that last time round, even before charges were introduced, attendances at the National Gallery fell markedly, simply on the supposition that they had been introduced? Does he accept that I know many people who will not be able to afford to pay for entry to museums and art galleries? Does he not know such people too?

The position is different for different types of museums. For example, the National Maritime museum seems to be making a great success of its scheme. It is right to leave the matter to the trustees of individual museums.

Does my hon. Friend agree that those museums in Britain which do not charge are put at a disadvantage compared with those museums in Europe, the Soviet Union and the United States which do charge and which can, as a result, enhance their collections, particularly when, knowing that, visitors are quite prepared to pay for admission?

That is the sort of consideration that may carry weight with some of the trustees concerned.

Is not the only disadvantage to which museums and galleries in Britain are put compared with those in other countries that Governments of other countries are a great deal more generous to their museums than are this Government? Is it not the case that, far from the Minister leaving it to the trustees to decide, he has used every possible occasion, including the recent opening of the library at Ealing, to encourage them to charge? He says that people appreciate what they pay for, but is that not the philosophy of the harlot?

I did not say that, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman thought up his joke before he listened to me. Some foreign countries can be more generous because they are now richer than Britain, and that is largely the result of the economic policies followed by the Labour party over a number of years.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if he will give the level of funding for the Arts Council in Wales for each of the last six years.

I will, with permission Mr. Speaker, make the complete list of figures available in the Official Report. The funding has risen from £3·94 million in 1978–79 to £6·54 million in 1983–84.

Will my hon. Friend acknowledge the importance of the arts in Wales, particularly for those visitors to the Principality who suffer the deprivation of not being able to enjoy the arts in Wales every day of their lives? Will he comment on my perception of those figures, which is that broadly, in real terms, the level of funding has remained about the same, even though that has been at a time of supposed financial restraint?

I confirm the importance which the Government attach to the arts in Wales. My hon. Friend is right to say that on the latest figures, up to 1984–85, spending on the arts in Wales has been just about within 1 per cent. protected against inflation.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts if, following legislation on local government in Greater London, the Government still intend that the Hayward gallery shall be managed under the auspices of the Arts Council.

Yes, Sir.

Does my hon. Friend agree that the GLC's attempt to expel the Arts Council of Great Britain— which has to prepare important art exhibitions two or three years ahead— from the Hayward gallery at a few months' notice is an act of uncivilised vandalism, which shows that the GLC is wholly unfit to run any serious art gallery, or anything else?

The GLC group concerned has made rather a fool of itself over this issue. The matter is subject to litigation. The Arts Council may be serving writs the other way. Such reputation as the GLC has in this area has been severely damaged by its behaviour over the Hayward gallery.

Is the Minister aware that some 18 months ago the Arts Council, in the form of its chair, said that it wanted to get out of both the Hayward and the Serpentine galleries? Is he also aware that the GLC has said that all contractual obligations to the Arts Council will be honoured? I do not see how that fits in with the question.

I am aware that the GLC's lawyers have now told the GLC something about the law of contract, which has influenced its position somewhat. I think that the position of the Arts Council is related to the proposals put forward by the GLC and is not an abstract one.

asked the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State answering in respect of the Arts what is the current level of private sponsorship of the arts; and if he will make a statement.

The Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts estimated sponsorship at £13·5 million in 1983, excluding charitable donations by companies and private individuals. No later figures are currently available, but the new incentive scheme of my right hon. and noble Friend has given sponsorship a new impetus. He will be announcing the initial 12 award winners tomorrow.

I welcome the results of private sponsorship of the arts. Are the Government to give extra publicity to that?

I shall certainly take up that matter with my right hon. and noble Friend and write to my hon. Friend on that point.